White House calls for increased grid spending

[NightFox]

Night Fox -

Finland actually fought two wars against the Soviet Union - the Winter War and the Continuation War.

At the end of the Winter War Finland had pushed the Soviets back almost to Leningrad. Much of those gains were then lost in the Continuation War.

But the major loss of land for Finland occured after WWII, when the western world rewarded Stalin by allowing him to seize and keep a massive chunk of Finnish land, known as the "ladies right arm" for its shape.

Yes sir, that's what I pointed out the Winter War (pre Operation Barbarossa) and The Continuation (post German Invasion), at the end of the Winter War the Finnish ceded Territory to the Soviets, which IMHO was only possible due to the Zhukov faction of the Soviet High Command coming to prominence after the Pavlov faction was discredited by Finnish military successes. At the conclusion of The Winter War (1940) Finland ceded large areas of Karelia and Salla to the Soviets (approximately 10% of their pre-war territory), the Finnish didn't win the Winter War they lost it.

During The Continuation the Finnish pushed all the way to the Leningrad District (primarily due to the fact that the Soviets had their hands full with the Germans) however they were soundly defeated and driven back to approximately their original Winter War line of defense by a Soviet Offensive in 1944 (despite being heavily resupplied by the Germans), at the conclusion of WW II the Finnish were forced to pay reparations to the Soviets (Finland having sided with Germany during Operation Barbarossa).

However IMHO it's likely that Finland's efforts were successful in keeping it from avoiding the same fate as the Baltic States (annexation by the Soviet Union) given that it's fairly clear that was Stalin's intention from the outset. All in all IMHO the whole story is a fascinating sub-plot of WW II that many people seemed to have missed in history class.

 

[ScienceRocks]

America is a super power = has a lot of money to build first rate infrastructure. Americans deserve it, not Iraq, afifuckingstan, etc.

 

[NightFox]

America is a super power = has a lot of money to build first rate infrastructure. Americans deserve it, not Iraq, afifuckingstan, etc.

How do you figure "has a lot of money"? our Federal Government is spending approximately 125% of it's revenues annually, which means that from a national public finances level we have a huge negative cash flow problem, not to mention our accumulated operating deficits + unfunded liabilities exceed the total national net worth, so our balance sheet is a disaster as well.

The only argument that one can make as far as "has a lot of money" is a printing press argument and that one leads down the path of economic self immolation.

 

[OriginalShroom]

BriPat -

Shroom -

I have no idea what you are talking about, but then neither do you. My pointing out that US electricity is under-priced is neither communist, nor anti-American.

Perhaps if you were to read my post carefully and for comprehension.. Yes I do realize that English is not your native language, you will notice that I was describing another poster from another board who you remind me of.

 

[boedicca]

Grids are worthless if there are not (coal fired) power plants to generate the electricity.

Just sayin'.

 

[Katzndogz]

What part of "energy prices to skyrocket" did people not understand? obama intended to end the grid, not improve it.

Surprisingly, liberals think that overregulation, an uneducated work force AND lack of energy will cause companies to move here!

 

[Saigon]

Grids are worthless if there are not (coal fired) power plants to generate the electricity.

Just sayin'.

Amazingly enough, most developed countries have long since moved towards cheaper forms of electricity than coal.

They still manage to keep the lights on.

Night Fox -

That the US has money and what the US spends money on are two different issues. I agree with Matthew that the US SHOULD have an excellent electricity supply network, and SHOULD be able to afford clean, efficient forms of eletricity generation.

I also agree with you that at the moment the inevitable transition to more reliable and efficient supply looks costly.

And yes, the Winter War is an amazing story. It's something Finns are still very proud of, and our military leader of the time (Mannerheim) is still a national hero.

 

[NightFox]

Grids are worthless if there are not (coal fired) power plants to generate the electricity.

Just sayin'.

Amazingly enough, most developed countries have long since moved towards cheaper forms of electricity than coal.

They still manage to keep the lights on.

Night Fox -

That the US has money and what the US spends money on are two different issues. I agree with Matthew that the US SHOULD have an excellent electricity supply network, and SHOULD be able to afford clean, efficient forms of eletricity generation.

What I've already pointed out is that we DO NOT have money to increase spending on anything since any new spending has to be financed by borrowing, currency debasement or a combination of the two which is structurally unhealthy for our economy and is undermining the standard of living not only for current generations but that of future generations as well.

The only way the U.S. would have money to invest in electrical grid expansion/upgrade is to cut spending in other areas to the point where the resultant cash flow situation isn't negative and future liabilities are being adequately addressed based on GAAP amortization. At this point it's politically impractical, since existing spending has political resistance to it's elimination and the American People are not holding our politicians accountable for avoiding the tough decisions needed to set priorities. So while it's a great idea to make strategic infrastructure investments there is no political inertia to prioritize those investments higher than all the wasteful, unnecessary spending already taking place.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

BriPat -

We do pay the market rate for electric power because we haven't yet fallen for the "green energy" scam. The market keeps prices low. Government is what causes prices to increase.

Certainly fracking has allowed the US to maintain very low prices, but that can't and won't last.

One report recently suggested the US has another 2-3 years of cheap fracking gas left - after which your prices could face massive hikes, one after another.

Fracking is a double-edged sword for the US. Yes, you have cheaper energy than we do this year and next year, but 10 years from now you may well be paying more, because so many countries in Europe have built a 21st century network, and the US hasn't done much at all.

Shroom -

I have no idea what you are talking about, but then neither do you. My pointing out that US electricity is under-priced is neither communist, nor anti-American.

What report? Is that the one that is inside your head?

That 21st century network you are bragging about is moving away from renewable sources because they are so unreliable. Why should we go to where they are leaving?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Pay double for all I care and when is your nation going to start paying the USA to protect your petro intrest in the Persian gulf? I so hate these free loading Socialist countries.

Firstly, Finland is CONSERVATIVE, genius.

Secondly, our oil comes from Russia, not via the gulf.

Thirdly, Finland beat the USSR on the battlefield - why didn't the US do their bit?

What planet do you live on?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Grids are worthless if there are not (coal fired) power plants to generate the electricity.

Just sayin'.

Amazingly enough, most developed countries have long since moved towards cheaper forms of electricity than coal.

They still manage to keep the lights on.

Night Fox -

That the US has money and what the US spends money on are two different issues. I agree with Matthew that the US SHOULD have an excellent electricity supply network, and SHOULD be able to afford clean, efficient forms of eletricity generation.

I also agree with you that at the moment the inevitable transition to more reliable and efficient supply looks costly.

And yes, the Winter War is an amazing story. It's something Finns are still very proud of, and our military leader of the time (Mannerheim) is still a national hero.

If the other forms of electricity are cheaper than coal why do they pay more for it?

 

[KissMy]

We do pay the market rate for electric power because we haven't yet fallen for the "green energy" scam. The market keeps prices low. Government is what causes prices to increase.

Only if you live in a deregulated State. If you do then you can have companies like Ambient Energy at market rate of 4 cent per KW instead of 9 cent in regulated areas.

 

[Wry Catcher]

White House calls for increased grid spending

NEW YORK (AP) — The cost of weather-related power outages is high and rising as storms grow more severe and the U.S. electric grid gets older, according to an Obama Administration report that calls for increased spending on the nation's electric power system.

Power outages cost the economy $18 billion to $33 billion per year, according to the report, a figure that has been rising steadily over the past 20 years. That can rise to $40 billion to $75 billion in years with severe storms such as 2008's Hurricane Ike and last year's Superstorm Sandy.

White House calls for increased grid spending - Businessweek

I agree. Let's build some nuclear power plants to go with that wind, solar and wave Obama has the right idea on this...

Better idea, get the government out of the electric grid completely.

Good idea. Lets' make us all dependent on Enron?!! The private sector is always honest, fair, above board and perfect. Right?

 

[KissMy]

Clean Line Energy is seeking to build the massive Grain Belt Express HVDC Clean Line across my farm. They are willing to pay big for the rights to do so. They are spending $2.7 billion per sub station to build one in each state they cross. They have lots of wind power providers paying to transmit their power to other states & the coast.

 

[bripat9643]

Grids are worthless if there are not (coal fired) power plants to generate the electricity.

Just sayin'.

Amazingly enough, most developed countries have long since moved towards cheaper forms of electricity than coal.

They still manage to keep the lights on.

Wind and solar are far more expensive than coal, and they don't manage to keep the lights on. 800,000 German families had their power shut off because they couldn't afford to pay the bill.

 

[bripat9643]

cheap coal fired power plants.

Advanced Coal - 140.7 dollars per KW hour

Wind - 96.8 dollars.

Cost of electricity by source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

there's no economic reason why the U.S. would pay more than anyone else.

Not more than anyone else - but much the same as anyone else.

What the hell is "advanced coal?" Current coal fired power plants are far cheaper than wind power. Furthermore, Every kilowatt of wind power requires a 100% backup from a coal fired power plant, so the cost of wind has to include the cost of coal.

Costs of Coal-fired Electricity - World Coal Association

The advantage of coal is even greater in comparison to renewable energy. IEA and European Commission studies show that onshore wind costs between US$50 and US$156 per MWh and solar photovoltaics between US$226 to US$2031. In certain locations hydro resources can produce electricity at a cost comparable to coal, however estimates vary greatly according to geographic conditions and the final price can be as high as US$240 and US$262 per MWh. In comparison, electricity from coal costs between US$56 to US$82 per MWh.

Onshore Wind $50/MWh - $156/MWh
Photovoltaic (solar) $226/MWh - $2031/MWh
Coal $56/MWh - $82/MWh

 

[westwall]

Pay double for all I care and when is your nation going to start paying the USA to protect your petro intrest in the Persian gulf? I so hate these free loading Socialist countries.

Firstly, Finland is CONSERVATIVE, genius.

Secondly, our oil comes from Russia, not via the gulf.

Thirdly, Finland beat the USSR on the battlefield - why didn't the US do their bit?

Ummmm, no they didn't.... While the Finns fought the Soviets to a standstill in the opening months of the Winter War the Soviets massed a ton of artillery and breached the Mannerheim line in Feb of 1940. They stormed through and captured Viipuri resulting in the Finns accepting the Soviet terms on March 12 1940.

Then during the Continuation War the Finns retook the Karelian isthmus and pretty much stayed there for the remainder of the war. When the Soviets kicked the Germans out they attacked the Finns who DID put up a hellacious defense and convinced the Soviets that they weren't worth the trouble so were able to avoid the Unconditional Surrender that the Soviets demanded of the Germans. The fact that the Finns had stayed within their borders during the Continuation War helped the Soviets to that decision.

 

[westwall]

White House calls for increased grid spending

White House calls for increased grid spending - Businessweek

I agree. Let's build some nuclear power plants to go with that wind, solar and wave Obama has the right idea on this...

Better idea, get the government out of the electric grid completely.

Good idea. Lets' make us all dependent on Enron?!! The private sector is always honest, fair, above board and perfect. Right?

Well you should know about that better than most. Davis must have made a mint based on the sweetheart deal he gave Enron that helped bankrupt the state. Davis is either criminally stupid or just plain criminal.

 

[Saigon]

If the other forms of electricity are cheaper than coal why do they pay more for it?

Because the transition from older to newer forms of electricity production involves manufacturing and installations - which aren't cheap.

A single marine turbine can cost US$10 million,plus it needs to be set up and linked to the grid.

However, as these are non-recurring costs, this is not an issue after the phase-in period.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

What the hell is "advanced coal?" Current coal fired power plants are far cheaper than wind power. Furthermore, Every kilowatt of wind power requires a 100% backup from a coal fired power plant, so the cost of wind has to include the cost of coal.

Advanced Coal = Clean Coal.

It is considerably more expensive than wind energy, thus it is not really a player.

Most countries which utilise a great deal of wind will use nuclear or hydro as the work horses.

btw. Keep in mind that when we talk about solar, Solar Photovoltaic is only one option, and not the latest technology - Solar Thermal maybe become a massive source of electricity during the next 20 years.