Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Shusha]

The territory was ceded to Palestine and the Palestinians got Palestinian citizenship.

Can you refute that?

Can I refute that the territory was ceded to some imaginary notion you happen to call "Palestine"? Easily.

I never tried to refute the idea that the residents who were formerly Ottoman citizens and the Jewish immigrants gained Palestinian citizenship. And I never claimed anything different in my last post.

My last post simply explained WHY those people didn't remain citizens of Palestine (now called Israel). Did you want to try to refute that?

 

[JoelT1]

The territory was ceded to Palestine and the Palestinians got Palestinian citizenship.

Can you refute that?

Can I refute that the territory was ceded to some imaginary notion you happen to call "Palestine"? Easily.

I never tried to refute the idea that the residents who were formerly Ottoman citizens and the Jewish immigrants gained Palestinian citizenship. And I never claimed anything different in my last post.

My last post simply explained WHY those people didn't remain citizens of Palestine (now called Israel). Did you want to try to refute that?

Palestine originated as a Roman name for ancient Israel, later the temporary name of the British Mandate which ceased to exist in 1948 with Israeli statehood

Now you know

 

[Shusha]

There are 22 Arab countries More than enough “self-determination”

You agree that Arabs, including these particular Arabs, should have self-determination, just not in Israel, then? Yes?

 

[JoelT1]

There are 22 Arab countries More than enough “self-determination”

You agree that Arabs, including these particular Arabs, should have self-determination, just not in Israel, then? Yes?

Pay attention: Arabs have 22 countries.

 

[Shusha]

Palestine originated as a Roman name for ancient Israel, later the temporary name of the British Mandate which ceased to exist in 1948 with Israeli statehood

Now you know

Joel, no offense, but I've been involved in debates on the Arab/Israeli conflict for a really really long time. Not a lot new. I like debating with people who come up with interesting and compelling arguments. You posting this a gazillion times all over these boards is boring me. (Which is why I haven't bothered to respond to you until now). And its disruptive.

 

[Shusha]

There are 22 Arab countries More than enough “self-determination”

You agree that Arabs, including these particular Arabs, should have self-determination, just not in Israel, then? Yes?

Pay attention: Arabs have 22 countries.

So what is your solution to the conflict, then?

 

[JoelT1]

Palestine originated as a Roman name for ancient Israel, later the temporary name of the British Mandate which ceased to exist in 1948 with Israeli statehood

Now you know

Joel, no offense, but I've been involved in debates on the Arab/Israeli conflict for a really really long time. Not a lot new. I like debating with people who come up with interesting and compelling arguments. You posting this a gazillion times all over these boards is boring me. (Which is why I haven't bothered to respond to you until now). And its disruptive.

You’re unable to debate because you’re unknowledgeable of the subject matter and illogical.

 

[Coyote]

Pick another name for the people we are talking about then. I don't care what silly name you choose, or how many drive-bys you do on different threads with your comments about the name. Its irrelevant.

They’re simply Arabs

Well, that is rather broad. But let's call them Arabs, then. Do you think these particular Arabs have rights to self-determination and sovereignty and to be able to control their own destiny?

There are 22 Arab countries More than enough “self-determination”

How many European countries are there? Does that mean one or more do not have the right of self determination?

Um, Europe is comprised of different ethnicities.

What do you mean? They are all Europeans right? Or are suggesting that there is no difference between the different Arab cultures? Is there a difference between the Irish and English? Americans and Canadians? Guatemalans and Peruvians? Which ones should be told they aren't real, have no right to self determination or that there are a multitude of other countries they can go to?

 

[JoelT1]

They’re simply Arabs

Well, that is rather broad. But let's call them Arabs, then. Do you think these particular Arabs have rights to self-determination and sovereignty and to be able to control their own destiny?

There are 22 Arab countries More than enough “self-determination”

How many European countries are there? Does that mean one or more do not have the right of self determination?

Um, Europe is comprised of different ethnicities.

What do you mean? They are all Europeans right? Or are suggesting that there is no difference between the different Arab cultures? Is there a difference between the Irish and English? Americans and Canadians? Guatemalans and Peruvians? Which ones should be told they aren't real, have no right to self determination or that there are a multitude of other countries they can go to?

Arabs are one ethnic group, defined by their native Arabic language and Arab tribes originating in Arabia

There are absolutely no differences between Saudi Arabs, Egyptian Arabs, Syrian Arabs etc etc etc. They are all Arabs

 

[Shusha]

You’re unable to debate because you’re unknowledgeable of the subject matter and illogical.

In my experience people who resort to ad hominem fallacies rather than discussing the actual subject matter lack the ability to formulate a logical argument. Further, people who continue to demonize one side, rather than presenting their arguments -- even when asked a direct and relatively simple question -- usually do so out of a deep seated illogical hatred. We are constantly battling that here on this board.

 

[Coyote]

Well, that is rather broad. But let's call them Arabs, then. Do you think these particular Arabs have rights to self-determination and sovereignty and to be able to control their own destiny?

There are 22 Arab countries More than enough “self-determination”

How many European countries are there? Does that mean one or more do not have the right of self determination?

Um, Europe is comprised of different ethnicities.

What do you mean? They are all Europeans right? Or are suggesting that there is no difference between the different Arab cultures? Is there a difference between the Irish and English? Americans and Canadians? Guatemalans and Peruvians? Which ones should be told they aren't real, have no right to self determination or that there are a multitude of other countries they can go to?

Arabs are one ethnic group, defined by their native Arabic language and Arab tribes originating in Arabia

There are absolutely no differences between Saudi Arabs, Egyptian Arabs, Syrian Arabs etc etc etc. They are all Arabs

You might want to inform them then.

 

[JoelT1]

You’re unable to debate because you’re unknowledgeable of the subject matter and illogical.

In my experience people who resort to ad hominem fallacies rather than discussing the actual subject matter lack the ability to formulate a logical argument. Further, people who continue to demonize one side, rather than presenting their arguments -- even when asked a direct and relatively simple question -- usually do so out of a deep seated illogical hatred. We are constantly battling that here on this board.

You have nothing of substance to add.

 

[Shusha]

Arabs are one ethnic group, defined by their native Arabic language and Arab tribes originating in Arabia

There are absolutely no differences between Saudi Arabs, Egyptian Arabs, Syrian Arabs etc etc etc. They are all Arabs

Are you suggesting they should only be permitted to have one State?

 

[JoelT1]

There are 22 Arab countries More than enough “self-determination”

How many European countries are there? Does that mean one or more do not have the right of self determination?

Um, Europe is comprised of different ethnicities.

What do you mean? They are all Europeans right? Or are suggesting that there is no difference between the different Arab cultures? Is there a difference between the Irish and English? Americans and Canadians? Guatemalans and Peruvians? Which ones should be told they aren't real, have no right to self determination or that there are a multitude of other countries they can go to?

Arabs are one ethnic group, defined by their native Arabic language and Arab tribes originating in Arabia

There are absolutely no differences between Saudi Arabs, Egyptian Arabs, Syrian Arabs etc etc etc. They are all Arabs

You might want to inform them then.

All Arabs originate from Arabia. Shouldn’t be difficult to grasp.

 

[Shusha]

I'll tell you why this matters, JoelT1

You see, you actually have a really viable and compelling argument. You just aren't able to put it into the form of a compelling argument because it gets all tangled up with your hate.

 

[JoelT1]

I'll tell you why this matters, JoelT1

You see, you actually have a really viable and compelling argument. You just aren't able to put it into the form of a compelling argument because it gets all tangled up with your hate.

I'll tell you why this matters, JoelT1

You see, you actually have a really viable and compelling argument. You just aren't able to put it into the form of a compelling argument because it gets all tangled up with your hate.

The conflict is theological not territorial: Islamic rejection of Jewish political independence ie Israel. The matter is way beyond your grasp,

 

[Coyote]

I'll tell you why this matters, JoelT1

You see, you actually have a really viable and compelling argument. You just aren't able to put it into the form of a compelling argument because it gets all tangled up with your hate.

I'll tell you why this matters, JoelT1

You see, you actually have a really viable and compelling argument. You just aren't able to put it into the form of a compelling argument because it gets all tangled up with your hate.

The conflict is theological not territorial: Islamic rejection of Jewish political independence ie Israel. The matter is way beyond your grasp,

How does that relate to the right of self determination? Are you saying because some Muslims refuse to recognize Jewish right to self determination we should therefore reject the palestinian's right? Rights are based on who we like or dislike?

 

[Shusha]

The conflict is theological not territorial: Islamic rejection of Jewish political independence ie Israel. The matter is way beyond your grasp,

Which is startlingly funny given that I said that SAME thing to Tinmore about six pages ago. Do you read my posts?

 

[JoelT1]

I'll tell you why this matters, JoelT1

You see, you actually have a really viable and compelling argument. You just aren't able to put it into the form of a compelling argument because it gets all tangled up with your hate.

I'll tell you why this matters, JoelT1

You see, you actually have a really viable and compelling argument. You just aren't able to put it into the form of a compelling argument because it gets all tangled up with your hate.

The conflict is theological not territorial: Islamic rejection of Jewish political independence ie Israel. The matter is way beyond your grasp,

How does that relate to the right of self determination? Are you saying because some Muslims refuse to recognize Jewish right to self determination we should therefore reject the palestinian's right? Rights are based on who we like or dislike?

Evidently, you have a learning disability. There are no palestinians They’re just Arabs, absolutely no different than Arabs in the 22 Arab countries.

Palestine originated as a Roman name imposed on Jews, about 2000 years ago. There was no Arab population and Muslims did not exist. Arabs began calling themselves palestinians in the 1960s, The British, who first made up the word, first applied it to Jews until 1948,

You’re done

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

Thank you for reminding me to call out all the hate, and not just one side's.

Here's the compelling argument which I think can be found here. Part of self-determination is the right to self-identification. Many Arab Palestinians identify strongly with both Jordanians and Syrians, and claim that all three are the same people. In fact, many argue that the current problems of those peoples are a direct result of the artificial separation of what really is ONE people.

This opens up the potential for a number of different solutions to the Arab Palestinians plight. We are not just restricted to a tiny piece of land adjoining Israel if we think in this way. There are other options. And it might provide all sorts of benefits to Arabs in all three/four places.