Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

All I can say is: WOW!

You are glossing over several important parts of history. Palestine was established as a state in 1924.

(COMMENT)

100% WRONG

All during the Mandate period, the Palestinians attempted to form an independent government. After the Mandate left, the Palestinians declared independence and wrote a constitution. This covered all Palestinians and all territory inside its international borders.

(COMMENT)

100% Wrong.

You did not mention that the Arab Palestinians turned down the participation (three-time by 1923) in the development of self-governing activities.

The All-Palestine Government was headed by enemies of the Allied Powers.

The All-Palestine Government filed for independence over territory already filed for and defended as the independent territory of Israel.

The All-Palestine Government was a puppet regime of the Egyptian Government and later dissolved their Puppet Regime when it failed to achieve Egypt's desired goals.

A new constitution defined a new independent government in 2003. A legitimate government was established in 2006. Another legitimate government was established in 2007.

(COMMENT)

I have yet seen an Arab Palestinians Government that was able to stand-alone and conduct even the simplest of functions normally associated with a sovereign nation.

All of this was illegally taken down by foreign military intervention.

(COMMENT)

No one Illegally seized any territory from the PalestineLiberation Organization. There is an argument to be made that there was territory, former sovereign under Jordanian Law by the consent of the Palestinian people. But the King abandon the territory in 1988 and left it in the hands of the Israelis. And there was no Arab Palestinian entity that claimed the right to the territory based on previous Arab Palestinian sovereignty over the territory.

The establishment of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) over the territory, and later the Mandate could hardly be considered a hostile Military acquisition. It was the Great War (WWI). And at the Armistice of Mudros (HMS Agamemnon) the Ottoman Empire surrendered the territory to the Allied Powers. The territorial considerations were ironed-out for the third time in the Treaty of Lausanne when Attaturk indorsed the position:

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognized by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighborly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.

And don't bring up Article 30. It is not even in the Part of the Treaty that deals with the territory.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, in the Treaty grants anything at all to the Arab Palestinians in terms of territorial sovereignty.

The Palestinians need to back out of these violations.

(COMMENT)

I don't know what this means... Even in November of 1988, the PLO Declaration was ambiguous at best. It is questionable whether or not any territory in the region was sovereign unto the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Arab Palestinians, had ever established the criteria for a sovereign and independent state.

Violations my backside!

The decisions in the last century were done and accepted as practice in that era. You cannot apply 21st Century practices retroactively to the conditions of the mid-20th Century. What is done is done. The Arab Palestinians need to move-on before they come to a point of irrelevance like that of the Kurds.

........
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toomuchtime_]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Yes, these are good questions.

The question that comes to mind is, who are "they"? Hamas? The PA? But the UNGA recognized the PLO, not the PA, as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, so it would have to be the PLO, but since the PLO is not recognized as a government how can it apply sovereignty? People talk about what the Palestinians might do, instead of what the Palestinian government might do because no one, not even the Palestinians have any idea what the Palestinian government is.

(COMMENT)

Q: The question that comes to mind is, who are "they"? Hamas? The PA?

A: At the moment, the two organizations (the PLO and The PA) are essentially the same. The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) is sole legitimate representative of the Arab people of Palestine. But as it happens, President Abbas of the State of Palestine and The Palestinian National Authority (PNA/PA), is connected to the PLO because President Abbas is also the Chairman of the PLO.

Historically, the Palestinian Authority (PA) is an organization that was implemented by the Israeli-Palestine Interim Agreement on the West Bank and Gaza Strip (Oslo II). But the Palestine in the "Israeli-Palestine Interim Agreement" is the PLO (ie the agreement was between Israel and the PLO). Thus, unless speciffically dissolved, the PA is an action arm that can (at the PLO's discretion) have an existance beyond that invisioned by the Agreement. Since its creation, the PA has never actually exercised any of the Dispute Resolution avenues open to the Palestinians on the many questions unted the Permanent Status Negotiations (Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest.).
​

Q: [T]he PLO is not recognized as a government how can it apply sovereignty?

A: Part One → Political

◈ The political existence of any state is independent of recognition by the other states.

◈ Since the Oslo Accords, which was recognized internationally by a third parties:

✦ The United States of America

✦ The Russian Federation

✦ The Kingdom of Norway​

B: Part Two: → Exsitence of Sovereignty​

◈ The international community the recognition of the right to independence is predicated on the establishment through self-determination:

✦ It is the creation of a deliniated sovereign state.

✦ The state is soley ruled by the entity that created.​

◈ The international community must recognition the creator as an entity that can perform the normal functions of government.

◈ The tacit recognition implies the intention of accepting new state as legitimate.​

◈ The limits of the deliniated sovereign territory extends to all inhabitants within the limits.

✦ Affiliation is drawn with a particular sovereign state. Nationality infers a citizenship.

✦ A relationship between an individual and a sovereign state in which the individual owes allegiance to the sovereign state which, in turn, extends an entitled protection.
​

Just my two cents worth.

.........View attachment 277869
Most Respectfully,
R

Since neither the PA nor the PLO can effectively apply sovereignty anyplace, this really isn't an important topic, but despite the fact that many of the same characters have important roles in both the PA and PLO, they are distinct organizations. If there were ever another election among the Palestinians, Hamas would be able to participate and possibly even win control of the PA, but since the UN, at Abbas' insistence, recognized the PLO as the only legitimate representative of the Palestinians - despite the fact that Hamas is not a member of the PLO and polls show Hamas represents about half the Palestinian people - the PA could not be said to represent the Palestinians - because non PLO parties are in it - and the PA handles all domestic and foreign functions for the Palestinians and the PA and not the PLO is dealt with directly by the UN and everyone else.

So who could apply sovereignty for the Palestinians? Clearly, the PA can't since it does not represent the Palestinians people and clearly the PLO can't since it is not a government.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

All I can say is: WOW!

You are glossing over several important parts of history. Palestine was established as a state in 1924.

(COMMENT)

100% WRONG

All during the Mandate period, the Palestinians attempted to form an independent government. After the Mandate left, the Palestinians declared independence and wrote a constitution. This covered all Palestinians and all territory inside its international borders.

(COMMENT)

100% Wrong.

You did not mention that the Arab Palestinians turned down the participation (three-time by 1923) in the development of self-governing activities.

The All-Palestine Government was headed by enemies of the Allied Powers.

The All-Palestine Government filed for independence over territory already filed for and defended as the independent territory of Israel.

The All-Palestine Government was a puppet regime of the Egyptian Government and later dissolved their Puppet Regime when it failed to achieve Egypt's desired goals.

A new constitution defined a new independent government in 2003. A legitimate government was established in 2006. Another legitimate government was established in 2007.

(COMMENT)

I have yet seen an Arab Palestinians Government that was able to stand-alone and conduct even the simplest of functions normally associated with a sovereign nation.

All of this was illegally taken down by foreign military intervention.

(COMMENT)

No one Illegally seized any territory from the PalestineLiberation Organization. There is an argument to be made that there was territory, former sovereign under Jordanian Law by the consent of the Palestinian people. But the King abandon the territory in 1988 and left it in the hands of the Israelis. And there was no Arab Palestinian entity that claimed the right to the territory based on previous Arab Palestinian sovereignty over the territory.

The establishment of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) over the territory, and later the Mandate could hardly be considered a hostile Military acquisition. It was the Great War (WWI). And at the Armistice of Mudros (HMS Agamemnon) the Ottoman Empire surrendered the territory to the Allied Powers. The territorial considerations were ironed-out for the third time in the Treaty of Lausanne when Attaturk indorsed the position:

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognized by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighborly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.

And don't bring up Article 30. It is not even in the Part of the Treaty that deals with the territory.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, in the Treaty grants anything at all to the Arab Palestinians in terms of territorial sovereignty.

The Palestinians need to back out of these violations.

(COMMENT)

I don't know what this means... Even in November of 1988, the PLO Declaration was ambiguous at best. It is questionable whether or not any territory in the region was sovereign unto the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Arab Palestinians, had ever established the criteria for a sovereign and independent state.

Violations my backside!

The decisions in the last century were done and accepted as practice in that era. You cannot apply 21st Century practices retroactively to the conditions of the mid-20th Century. What is done is done. The Arab Palestinians need to move-on before they come to a point of irrelevance like that of the Kurds.

........View attachment 277933
Most Respectfully,
R

You did not mention that the Arab Palestinians turned down the participation (three-time by 1923) in the development of self-governing activities.

Those offers were not for independence. They were offers to buy into their settler colonial project.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

All I can say is: WOW!

You are glossing over several important parts of history. Palestine was established as a state in 1924.

(COMMENT)

100% WRONG

All during the Mandate period, the Palestinians attempted to form an independent government. After the Mandate left, the Palestinians declared independence and wrote a constitution. This covered all Palestinians and all territory inside its international borders.

(COMMENT)

100% Wrong.

You did not mention that the Arab Palestinians turned down the participation (three-time by 1923) in the development of self-governing activities.

The All-Palestine Government was headed by enemies of the Allied Powers.

The All-Palestine Government filed for independence over territory already filed for and defended as the independent territory of Israel.

The All-Palestine Government was a puppet regime of the Egyptian Government and later dissolved their Puppet Regime when it failed to achieve Egypt's desired goals.

A new constitution defined a new independent government in 2003. A legitimate government was established in 2006. Another legitimate government was established in 2007.

(COMMENT)

I have yet seen an Arab Palestinians Government that was able to stand-alone and conduct even the simplest of functions normally associated with a sovereign nation.

All of this was illegally taken down by foreign military intervention.

(COMMENT)

No one Illegally seized any territory from the PalestineLiberation Organization. There is an argument to be made that there was territory, former sovereign under Jordanian Law by the consent of the Palestinian people. But the King abandon the territory in 1988 and left it in the hands of the Israelis. And there was no Arab Palestinian entity that claimed the right to the territory based on previous Arab Palestinian sovereignty over the territory.

The establishment of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) over the territory, and later the Mandate could hardly be considered a hostile Military acquisition. It was the Great War (WWI). And at the Armistice of Mudros (HMS Agamemnon) the Ottoman Empire surrendered the territory to the Allied Powers. The territorial considerations were ironed-out for the third time in the Treaty of Lausanne when Attaturk indorsed the position:

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognized by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighborly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.

And don't bring up Article 30. It is not even in the Part of the Treaty that deals with the territory.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, in the Treaty grants anything at all to the Arab Palestinians in terms of territorial sovereignty.

The Palestinians need to back out of these violations.

(COMMENT)

I don't know what this means... Even in November of 1988, the PLO Declaration was ambiguous at best. It is questionable whether or not any territory in the region was sovereign unto the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Arab Palestinians, had ever established the criteria for a sovereign and independent state.

Violations my backside!

The decisions in the last century were done and accepted as practice in that era. You cannot apply 21st Century practices retroactively to the conditions of the mid-20th Century. What is done is done. The Arab Palestinians need to move-on before they come to a point of irrelevance like that of the Kurds.

........View attachment 277933
Most Respectfully,
R

And don't bring up Article 30. It is not even in the Part of the Treaty that deals with the territory.

Article 30 said who the land would be transferred to. The new states. And who would be the citizens of those new states. The people who live there.

The people are the sovereigns of the territory. External interference does not negate their rights.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

All I can say is: WOW!

You are glossing over several important parts of history. Palestine was established as a state in 1924.

(COMMENT)

100% WRONG

All during the Mandate period, the Palestinians attempted to form an independent government. After the Mandate left, the Palestinians declared independence and wrote a constitution. This covered all Palestinians and all territory inside its international borders.

(COMMENT)

100% Wrong.

You did not mention that the Arab Palestinians turned down the participation (three-time by 1923) in the development of self-governing activities.

The All-Palestine Government was headed by enemies of the Allied Powers.

The All-Palestine Government filed for independence over territory already filed for and defended as the independent territory of Israel.

The All-Palestine Government was a puppet regime of the Egyptian Government and later dissolved their Puppet Regime when it failed to achieve Egypt's desired goals.

A new constitution defined a new independent government in 2003. A legitimate government was established in 2006. Another legitimate government was established in 2007.

(COMMENT)

I have yet seen an Arab Palestinians Government that was able to stand-alone and conduct even the simplest of functions normally associated with a sovereign nation.

All of this was illegally taken down by foreign military intervention.

(COMMENT)

No one Illegally seized any territory from the PalestineLiberation Organization. There is an argument to be made that there was territory, former sovereign under Jordanian Law by the consent of the Palestinian people. But the King abandon the territory in 1988 and left it in the hands of the Israelis. And there was no Arab Palestinian entity that claimed the right to the territory based on previous Arab Palestinian sovereignty over the territory.

The establishment of the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA) over the territory, and later the Mandate could hardly be considered a hostile Military acquisition. It was the Great War (WWI). And at the Armistice of Mudros (HMS Agamemnon) the Ottoman Empire surrendered the territory to the Allied Powers. The territorial considerations were ironed-out for the third time in the Treaty of Lausanne when Attaturk indorsed the position:

Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognized by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.

The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighborly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.

And don't bring up Article 30. It is not even in the Part of the Treaty that deals with the territory.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, in the Treaty grants anything at all to the Arab Palestinians in terms of territorial sovereignty.

The Palestinians need to back out of these violations.

(COMMENT)

I don't know what this means... Even in November of 1988, the PLO Declaration was ambiguous at best. It is questionable whether or not any territory in the region was sovereign unto the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Arab Palestinians, had ever established the criteria for a sovereign and independent state.

Violations my backside!

The decisions in the last century were done and accepted as practice in that era. You cannot apply 21st Century practices retroactively to the conditions of the mid-20th Century. What is done is done. The Arab Palestinians need to move-on before they come to a point of irrelevance like that of the Kurds.

........View attachment 277933
Most Respectfully,
R

And don't bring up Article 30. It is not even in the Part of the Treaty that deals with the territory.

Article 30 said who the land would be transferred to. The new states. And who would be the citizens of those new states. The people who live there.

The people are the sovereigns of the territory. External interference does not negate their rights.

The reference you make to Article 30 and your attempt to re-write it is one you habitually spam various threads with.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Under the Right of Self-Determination, even a Provisional Government can make a claim.

So who could apply sovereignty for the Palestinians? Clearly, the PA can't since it does not represent the Palestinians people and clearly the PLO can't since it is not a government.

(COMMENT)

There is no absolute requirement for it to be a government. All it has to be is a "people" of some definable category.

It does not mean that it is going to work out for them. In the case of the All Palestine Government, they tried to claim a territory already declared independent by the National Council for the Jewish State (recognized as the Provisional Council Government). The Arab League attempted to take it by force. The Hashemite Kingdom took a piece and the Egyptian Government took a piece. The All Palestine Government got nothing.

........
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Get with the program.

Article 30 said who the land would be transferred to. The new states. And who would be the citizens of those new states. The people who live there.

The people are the sovereigns of the territory. External interference does not negate their rights.

(COMMENT)

How is that interpretation working out for them? Article 30 does not transfer any land; none.

No new state was created until 1948 (with the exception of the Emirate). That was the Jewish State. The Arab Palestinians declined to participate in self-governance.


........
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Under the Right of Self-Determination, even a Provisional Government can make a claim.

So who could apply sovereignty for the Palestinians? Clearly, the PA can't since it does not represent the Palestinians people and clearly the PLO can't since it is not a government.

(COMMENT)

There is no absolute requirement for it to be a government. All it has to be is a "people" of some definable category.

It does not mean that it is going to work out for them. In the case of the All Palestine Government, they tried to claim a territory already declared independent by the National Council for the Jewish State (recognized as the Provisional Council Government). The Arab League attempted to take it by force. The Hashemite Kingdom took a piece and the Egyptian Government took a piece. The All Palestine Government got nothing.

........View attachment 277999
Most Respectfully,
R

There is no absolute requirement for it to be a government. All it has to be is a "people" of some definable category.

The Palestinians are citizens of a territory defined by international borders.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Under the Right of Self-Determination, even a Provisional Government can make a claim.

So who could apply sovereignty for the Palestinians? Clearly, the PA can't since it does not represent the Palestinians people and clearly the PLO can't since it is not a government.

(COMMENT)

There is no absolute requirement for it to be a government. All it has to be is a "people" of some definable category.

It does not mean that it is going to work out for them. In the case of the All Palestine Government, they tried to claim a territory already declared independent by the National Council for the Jewish State (recognized as the Provisional Council Government). The Arab League attempted to take it by force. The Hashemite Kingdom took a piece and the Egyptian Government took a piece. The All Palestine Government got nothing.

........View attachment 277999
Most Respectfully,
R

There is no absolute requirement for it to be a government. All it has to be is a "people" of some definable category.

The Palestinians are citizens of a territory defined by international borders.

I see you abandoned the “Article 30” argument. Now it’s the “....because Insay so”, argument.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Under the Right of Self-Determination, even a Provisional Government can make a claim.

So who could apply sovereignty for the Palestinians? Clearly, the PA can't since it does not represent the Palestinians people and clearly the PLO can't since it is not a government.

(COMMENT)

There is no absolute requirement for it to be a government. All it has to be is a "people" of some definable category.

It does not mean that it is going to work out for them. In the case of the All Palestine Government, they tried to claim a territory already declared independent by the National Council for the Jewish State (recognized as the Provisional Council Government). The Arab League attempted to take it by force. The Hashemite Kingdom took a piece and the Egyptian Government took a piece. The All Palestine Government got nothing.

........View attachment 277999
Most Respectfully,
R

In the case of the All Palestine Government, they tried to claim a territory already declared independent by the National Council for the Jewish State

One of Israel's biggest lies.

Israel never claimed any territory nor did it define any borders. That holds true for today.

On the other hand, the Palestinians declared independence on their own territory inside their own international borders. Land and borders that were still valid in 1949 according to the Armistice Agreements.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Yes, that is true, only as far as you take it. But you are not being honest when you leave it at that and then imply that is the whole story.

The Palestinians are citizens of a territory defined by international borders.

(COMMENT)

The Internationally recognized borders between 1922 and 1948 were set by the Allied Powers as defining the territory subject to the Mandate. That was set by Paragraph 1 of the Order in Council (1922), and unchanged until the Mandate terminated in 1948.

In 1948 the International borders were changed, first for just a few hours when the Arab League jumped out of there sovereign territory and illegally entered into military operations outside the Charter. Then in 1949, the Armistice Agreements set demarcation lines as agreed to by the parties to the conflict. While the Armistice did bring a cessation to hostilities, it the various agreements did not bring an end to the conflict.

The Jordanian (an Arab League Party) took what land they wanted. The Egyptians (an Arab League Party) took what land they wanted.

In 1967, hostilities resumed after Arab League Parties violated Article 2(4) to wit: failure to refrain from the threat to use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of State of Israel [membership in the United Nations A/RES/273 (III) 11 May 1949].

The dispute over the territory was resolved by Treaties between Israel and the Arab League Parties (Egypt 1979 Gaza Strip --- Jordan 1994 West Bank and Jerusalem).

Since the 1920s, it has been the Arab League Parties and the Arab Palestinian belligerent complaints that have consistently attempted to use force to achieve their ends. And since the 1920s after consistently failing to achieve their desired results, the Arab League Parties and the Arab Palestinian belligerent complainants have consistently asserted that Israel used force (as opposed to self-defense against Arab Aggression) that denied the Arab League Parties and the Arab Palestinian the position in which to demand Israeli capitulation.

FINALLY, → relative to the Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, these key points should be made:

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank lost their nationality, when they voluntarily accepted the protection of:

✦ The protection of the All Palestine Government of the Gaza Strip.

✦ The protection of the Hashemite Kingdom covering the West Bank and Jerusalem.​

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank committed (as evidenced by their own admission) crimes against peace, war crimes, or a crime against humanity (including terrorist), as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes.

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, having never lived in the sovereign territory of Israel, demand a "right of return" for which they are not entitled.

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, violated the provision of Paragraph 11, A/RES/194 (III) December 1948, when they pleged violence, before returning and living at peace with their neighbours.

✦ The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child. (12/1948)

✦ Arab States abide, namely, no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations. (09/1967)

✦ Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. (07/1968)

✦ There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. (08/1988)

✦ Abdel Aziz Rantisi, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."


"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side." (06/2003)

✦ "The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem." (01/2006)


✦ "We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path." (03/2007)

✦ Hamas leader Ayman Taha,

"It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks." (12/2008)

✦ Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper,

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I." (11/2010)

✦ Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, (12/2012)​

It is important to remember that Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank communicate and emphasize hatred and anti-Semitism through the generations at all levels beginning in elementary school. Even if it were to stop today, it would probably take a half-century just to dial down the rhetoric It is virtually a futialeffort to think that peace could be maintained in the current atmosphere.


........
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are just hilarious today!

In the case of the All Palestine Government, they tried to claim a territory already declared independent by the National Council for the Jewish State

One of Israel's biggest lies.

Israel never claimed any territory nor did it define any borders. That holds true for today.

On the other hand, the Palestinians declared independence on their own territory inside their own international borders. Land and borders that were still valid in 1949 according to the Armistice Agreements.

(COMMENT)

There is no validity at all to this argument. Absolutely none.

It is neither sound nor valid.



........
Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ toomuchtime_, et al,

Yes, that is true, only as far as you take it. But you are not being honest when you leave it at that and then imply that is the whole story.

The Palestinians are citizens of a territory defined by international borders.

(COMMENT)

The Internationally recognized borders between 1922 and 1948 were set by the Allied Powers as defining the territory subject to the Mandate. That was set by Paragraph 1 of the Order in Council (1922), and unchanged until the Mandate terminated in 1948.

In 1948 the International borders were changed, first for just a few hours when the Arab League jumped out of there sovereign territory and illegally entered into military operations outside the Charter. Then in 1949, the Armistice Agreements set demarcation lines as agreed to by the parties to the conflict. While the Armistice did bring a cessation to hostilities, it the various agreements did not bring an end to the conflict.

The Jordanian (an Arab League Party) took what land they wanted. The Egyptians (an Arab League Party) took what land they wanted.

In 1967, hostilities resumed after Arab League Parties violated Article 2(4) to wit: failure to refrain from the threat to use force against the territorial integrity or political independence of State of Israel [membership in the United Nations A/RES/273 (III) 11 May 1949].

The dispute over the territory was resolved by Treaties between Israel and the Arab League Parties (Egypt 1979 Gaza Strip --- Jordan 1994 West Bank and Jerusalem).

Since the 1920s, it has been the Arab League Parties and the Arab Palestinian belligerent complaints that have consistently attempted to use force to achieve their ends. And since the 1920s after consistently failing to achieve their desired results, the Arab League Parties and the Arab Palestinian belligerent complainants have consistently asserted that Israel used force (as opposed to self-defense against Arab Aggression) that denied the Arab League Parties and the Arab Palestinian the position in which to demand Israeli capitulation.

FINALLY, → relative to the Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, these key points should be made:

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank lost their nationality, when they voluntarily accepted the protection of:

✦ The protection of the All Palestine Government of the Gaza Strip.

✦ The protection of the Hashemite Kingdom covering the West Bank and Jerusalem.​

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank committed (as evidenced by their own admission) crimes against peace, war crimes, or a crime against humanity (including terrorist), as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provision in respect of such crimes.

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, having never lived in the sovereign territory of Israel, demand a "right of return" for which they are not entitled.

◈ Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, violated the provision of Paragraph 11, A/RES/194 (III) December 1948, when they pleged violence, before returning and living at peace with their neighbours.

✦ The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child. (12/1948)

✦ Arab States abide, namely, no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations. (09/1967)

✦ Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. (07/1968)

✦ There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. (08/1988)

✦ Abdel Aziz Rantisi, interview with Al-Jazeera, Jerusalem Post

"By God, we will not leave one Jew in Palestine. We will fight them with all the strength we have. This is our land, not the Jews..."


"You will have no security except outside the homeland Palestine.... We have Allah on our side, and we have the sons of the Arab and Islamic nation on our side." (06/2003)

✦ "The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances. Hamas will stay faithful to jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem." (01/2006)


✦ "We will not betray promises we made to God to continue the path of Jihad and resistance until the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. . . So be assured doctor Ayman, and all those who love Palestine like yourself, that Hamas is still the group you knew when it was founded and it will never abandon its path." (03/2007)

✦ Hamas leader Ayman Taha,

"It is our right as an occupied people to defend ourselves from the occupation by all means possible including suicide attacks." (12/2008)

✦ Hamas official Halil Al-Hayya, Al-Hayat newspaper,

"Palestine is Islamic, and not an Islamic emirate, from the river to the sea, that unites the Palestinians. Jews have no right in it, with the exception of those who lived on the land of Palestine before World War I." (11/2010)

✦ Jihad and the armed resistance is the right and real method for the liberation of Palestine, (12/2012)​

It is important to remember that Arab Palestinian of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank communicate and emphasize hatred and anti-Semitism through the generations at all levels beginning in elementary school. Even if it were to stop today, it would probably take a half-century just to dial down the rhetoric It is virtually a futialeffort to think that peace could be maintained in the current atmosphere.


........View attachment 278078
Most Respectfully,
R

The Internationally recognized borders between 1922 and 1948 were set by the Allied Powers as defining the territory subject to the Mandate. That was set by Paragraph 1 of the Order in Council (1922), and unchanged until the Mandate terminated in 1948.

The Mandate was merely a trustee. It had no land or borders. Palestine's international borders are there with or without the mandate. Palestine is Palestine with or without the Mandate. Palestinians are Palestinians with or without the Mandate.

Britain failed to bring Palestine to independence like it was charged to do under the LoN Covenant. Britain impeded all efforts by the Palestinians to work toward independence.

So the Palestinians declared independence for its own people, on its own land, and inside its own international borders. It was a perfectly legitimate declaration and it was before the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. Occupations cannot acquire sovereignty nor can they annex occupied territory.

The rest of your post is irrelevant fluff.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ "P F Tinmore, et al,

Now who is deflecting?

The Internationally recognized borders between 1922 and 1948 were set by the Allied Powers as defining the territory subject to the Mandate. That was set by Paragraph 1 of the Order in Council (1922), and unchanged until the Mandate terminated in 1948.

The Mandate was merely a trustee. It had no land or borders. Palestine's international borders are there with or without the mandate. Palestine is Palestine with or without the Mandate. Palestinians are Palestinians with or without the Mandate.

(COMMENT)

You are so full of it. Of course, there was a defined territory for the British Government of Palestine:

Title.1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.
  
  ​

What is it about you? → You make these claims thinking that nobody knows?

Britain failed to bring Palestine to independence like it was charged to do under the LoN Covenant. Britain impeded all efforts by the Palestinians to work toward independence.

(COMMENT)

First-off, Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant was a Covenant between the Allied Powers that were a party to the Covenant. It is neither here nor there relative to what the parties (not the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip or the West Bank) considered sufficient for their purposes.

“The British Government desired to establish self-government in Palestine, but to proceed in this direction by stages…. It had been announced that the nominated Advisory Council was to be the first stage. The second stage would have been a Legislative Council without an Arab majority. If this worked satisfactorily, the third stage, after a lapse of perhaps same years, would have been a constitution on more democratic lines.”

• A/AC.14/8 2 October 1947 •​

That is not including the further Arab Palestinian rejection (A/AC.21/10 16 February 1948) to participate in the establishment of self-governing institutions as part of the "Step Prepatory to Independence." And not including the:

The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

IF the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and West Bank refuse to participate in the Steps Preparatory to Independence → giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, THEN that is the fault of the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and West Bank; NOT the Principal Allied Powers that attempted to help them do so.

So the Palestinians declared independence for its own people, on its own land, and inside its own international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All Palestine Government DID NOT Declare Independence until several months "AFTER" The National Council for the Jewish State exercised their right to self-determination, in coordination with the UN Palestine Committee (UNPC) to which the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and West Bank refuse to participate.

It was a perfectly legitimate declaration and it was before the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. Occupations cannot acquire sovereignty nor can they annex occupied territory.

(COMMENT)

Yes, it was on 28 September 1948, seriously flawed. The UNPC required that:

The stipulations contained in the declaration are recognized as fundamental laws of the State and no law, regulation or official action shall conflict or interfere with these stipulations, nor shall any law, regulation or official action prevail over them.​

The APG Declaration of September 1948 cannot override the claim made by the National Council for the Jewish State four months earlier.

The rest of your post is irrelevant fluff.

(COMMENT)

What you call "fluff" is actually an essential part of the reasoning that precluded the acceptance of self-identified Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) from being included in participation with Paragraph 11, A/RES/194 (III) (12/1948). It is the attention to detail that makes a difference.

........
Most Respectfully,
R​

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ And then......the world must give them money....because the PA's priorities are......well.....you know.....]

According to the calculations of Palestinian Media Watch following the PA's own pay scale, the PA has, to date, paid the six terrorists who were arrested and imprisoned for their roles in the attacks, a total of 2,892,500 shekels. The PA has also paid the families of the two suicide bombers - so-called "Martyrs" - a total of 356,400 shekels since the attacks.

While the PA will continue to pay monthly salaries to all of the terrorists, it is noteworthy that the PA just raised the salaries of the two terrorists who prepared the suicide belts to 7,000 shekels/month. Similar to an employee of any company that receives a raise after a certain period of employment, the PA - following PA law - just raised the salaries of these two terrorists as they completed 15 years in prison (they were arrested in July and August 2004). For the last five years the PA paid them 6,000 shekels/month.

In 18 months, the PA will also raise the salary of mass murderer Ibrahim Hamed, who is serving 54 life sentences for planning different terror attacks in which 54 people were murdered.

(full article online)

PA raises salary of suicide belt makers who murdered 16 in Café Hillel and Tzrifin attacks in 2003 - PMW Bulletins

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ "P F Tinmore, et al,

Now who is deflecting?

The Internationally recognized borders between 1922 and 1948 were set by the Allied Powers as defining the territory subject to the Mandate. That was set by Paragraph 1 of the Order in Council (1922), and unchanged until the Mandate terminated in 1948.

The Mandate was merely a trustee. It had no land or borders. Palestine's international borders are there with or without the mandate. Palestine is Palestine with or without the Mandate. Palestinians are Palestinians with or without the Mandate.

(COMMENT)

You are so full of it. Of course, there was a defined territory for the British Government of Palestine:

Title.1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."

• The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine.
  
  ​

What is it about you? → You make these claims thinking that nobody knows?

Britain failed to bring Palestine to independence like it was charged to do under the LoN Covenant. Britain impeded all efforts by the Palestinians to work toward independence.

(COMMENT)

First-off, Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant was a Covenant between the Allied Powers that were a party to the Covenant. It is neither here nor there relative to what the parties (not the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip or the West Bank) considered sufficient for their purposes.

“The British Government desired to establish self-government in Palestine, but to proceed in this direction by stages…. It had been announced that the nominated Advisory Council was to be the first stage. The second stage would have been a Legislative Council without an Arab majority. If this worked satisfactorily, the third stage, after a lapse of perhaps same years, would have been a constitution on more democratic lines.”

• A/AC.14/8 2 October 1947 •​

That is not including the further Arab Palestinian rejection (A/AC.21/10 16 February 1948) to participate in the establishment of self-governing institutions as part of the "Step Prepatory to Independence." And not including the:

The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition. The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out — man, woman and child.

IF the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and West Bank refuse to participate in the Steps Preparatory to Independence → giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, THEN that is the fault of the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and West Bank; NOT the Principal Allied Powers that attempted to help them do so.

So the Palestinians declared independence for its own people, on its own land, and inside its own international borders.

(COMMENT)

The All Palestine Government DID NOT Declare Independence until several months "AFTER" The National Council for the Jewish State exercised their right to self-determination, in coordination with the UN Palestine Committee (UNPC) to which the Arab Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and West Bank refuse to participate.

It was a perfectly legitimate declaration and it was before the UN divided Palestine into three areas of occupation. Occupations cannot acquire sovereignty nor can they annex occupied territory.

(COMMENT)

Yes, it was on 28 September 1948, seriously flawed. The UNPC required that:

The stipulations contained in the declaration are recognized as fundamental laws of the State and no law, regulation or official action shall conflict or interfere with these stipulations, nor shall any law, regulation or official action prevail over them.​

The APG Declaration of September 1948 cannot override the claim made by the National Council for the Jewish State four months earlier.

The rest of your post is irrelevant fluff.

(COMMENT)

What you call "fluff" is actually an essential part of the reasoning that precluded the acceptance of self-identified Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) from being included in participation with Paragraph 11, A/RES/194 (III) (12/1948). It is the attention to detail that makes a difference.

........View attachment 278097
Most Respectfully,
R​

The APG Declaration of September 1948 cannot override the claim made by the National Council for the Jewish State four months earlier.

The APC's declaration did not encroach on any territory claimed by Israel.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Gazan children give disturbing answer to a simple question

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are just hilarious today!

In the case of the All Palestine Government, they tried to claim a territory already declared independent by the National Council for the Jewish State

One of Israel's biggest lies.

Israel never claimed any territory nor did it define any borders. That holds true for today.

On the other hand, the Palestinians declared independence on their own territory inside their own international borders. Land and borders that were still valid in 1949 according to the Armistice Agreements.

(COMMENT)

There is no validity at all to this argument. Absolutely none.

It is neither sound nor valid.



........View attachment 278085
Most Respectfully,
R

Do you have any proof for that allegation?

Of course not.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Work accident! Islamic Jihad member blows himself up ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[Sixties Fan]

Report: Forensics experts looking at Israa Gharib honor killing have resigned because of PA interference in case ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News