Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Varth Dader]

No, she's saying that the circumstances under which she got pregnant with him were not a good idea. If she were campaigning for teenaged abortions, THAT would indicate that she regrets having her baby.

Yeah right. Does she regret her decision? Would she do something different otherwise? If she has no regrets about having her baby, she should also have no regrets about what directly led to it.

Says who? You? Who elected YOU Supreme High Arbiter of How People Have To Feel?

A woman can regret making the decision to have sex (or many other decisions) without regretting the decision to give birth to the resultant baby.

Let me clarify for you, Sparky. The circumstances under which I had my first child were VERY not optimal (No, you can't ask. It's none of your business). I regretted those circumstances quite a bit, but I NEVER regretted my child. She was the silver lining on the dark cloud, the blessing that God generously granted me out of adversity. She was also, in many ways, the main reason I regretted the circumstances so much: because I loved her more than anyone in my entire life, and she deserved better. But regretting that I didn't do better by her does NOT equate to regretting HER.

What exactly is there to regret if not the kid? I fail to see any negative outcome for Bristol unless we are talking about here kid. Did she get an STD? Did she get raped?
The baby could only come out of having unprotected sex with her boyfriend, which she did, and apparently it's bad enough she decided to appear in ads to discourage teens for having babies.

the candie's foundation

Anyways, this is to address the issue about Obama. When he said "punished" with a kid, he meant it in that very "not optimal" way you talk about.

 

[Varth Dader]

• S: (n) baby (an unborn child; a human fetus) "I felt healthy and very feminine carrying the baby"; "it was great to feel my baby moving about inside"

WordNet Search - 3.1

S: (n) abortion (termination of pregnancy)
WordNet Search - 3.1


Why can't you people ever be honest?

At what age did you become a 'baby' by whatever definition makes you feel good about killing children?

Speaking of honesty. I checked the first link you provided. The first definition is:

S: (n) baby, babe, infant (a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk) "the baby began to cry again"; "she held the baby in her arms"; "it sounds simple, but when you have your own baby it is all so different"

Apparently you had to pick the 4th definition to find a definition to match with your argument.

I refuse to engage in a debate about the word baby. I personally wouldn't call 8 cells a baby, but it seems you do. Fine. Call that a baby. And indeed, when you abort, you are killing that entity, which according to you, is a baby.

So, what is the next step? Is there a next step?

Tell us about under cases that relate to abortion. For example, I think I asked you before but did not recall an answer, do you think a mother that takes alcohol or smokes during a pregnancy should face consequences? How about the one that attempts to kill herself, fails but kills the fetus inside her tummy? Is that the same? Or how about the couple that uses fertility clinic services which kills embryos? Is that the same?

It's news to you that words have multiple meanings and usages? Or it's somehow dishonest to you to point out one definition in particular?

Yes, baby is often used to specify a child after birth, usually by people like you who want to pretend that unborn children are not alive. This is why certain dictionaries now make mention of this peculiarity. Many don't even bother, however, and just stick to the much more common (and more established) usage.

Note, for example, that Merriam-Webster keeps the definitions for "baby" very general, as its usage also usually is:

1 a (1): an extremely young child; especially: infant (2): an extremely young animal b: the youngest of a group

2 a: one that is like a baby (as in behavior) b: something that is one's special responsibility, achievement, or interest

On the other hand, if you look at the more specific synonym, "infant", you find this:


1 a (1): an extremely young child; especially: infant (2): an extremely young animal b: the youngest of a group


2 a: one that is like a baby (as in behavior) b: something that is one's special responsibility, achievement, or interest

The words people mistakenly try to use to mean "something other than a baby", like "fetus" and "embryo", are really only medical terms for denoting specific stages of development, and all refer to "babies".

I told you, I refuse to engage on a debate on the meaning of the word baby because it is irrelevant. What matters is factually what is in the mother's womb, the right that entity has, the right the mother has, the right the father has, etc. You think that killing an embryo is the same as killing a born human. I don't.

 

[Varth Dader]

I'll address your [idiotic] questions [that I've answered dozens of time] when you answer my question.

At what point did what change that made killing you in cold blood go from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing?

There is no precise point. It's somewhere between when I was conceived to when I was born.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yeah right. Does she regret her decision? Would she do something different otherwise? If she has no regrets about having her baby, she should also have no regrets about what directly led to it.

Says who? You? Who elected YOU Supreme High Arbiter of How People Have To Feel?

A woman can regret making the decision to have sex (or many other decisions) without regretting the decision to give birth to the resultant baby.

Let me clarify for you, Sparky. The circumstances under which I had my first child were VERY not optimal (No, you can't ask. It's none of your business). I regretted those circumstances quite a bit, but I NEVER regretted my child. She was the silver lining on the dark cloud, the blessing that God generously granted me out of adversity. She was also, in many ways, the main reason I regretted the circumstances so much: because I loved her more than anyone in my entire life, and she deserved better. But regretting that I didn't do better by her does NOT equate to regretting HER.

What exactly is there to regret if not the kid? I fail to see any negative outcome for Bristol unless we are talking about here kid. Did she get an STD? Did she get raped?
The baby could only come out of having unprotected sex with her boyfriend, which she did, and apparently it's bad enough she decided to appear in ads to discourage teens for having babies.

the candie's foundation

Anyways, this is to address the issue about Obama. When he said "punished" with a kid, he meant it in that very "not optimal" way you talk about.

Did you seriously just ask me what there is to regret about getting pregnant and having a baby as a teenager, aside from the baby's existence itself? Really?! Why not just ask me if water is wet? I have no intention of wasting time answering such a boneheaded, painfully obvious question. And if you really can't do any better than borderline retardation, I'm going to stop wasting time answering YOU.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Lol there's those superb debating techniques again!



I think we all know what created implies.

No, WE all know what it MEANS. Whatever connotations your fevered brain, rotted by the hatred and stupidity that marks ALL bigots, have assigned to the word are not our problem.

Create - To bring into existence

Don't blame any of us just because YOU can't bear to hear essential historical American documents quoted.

Me making note that christians are creationists shows I have a fevered brain rotted by hatred and a bigot?


Ok you win, that's a very rational assessment.


That's the best attribute you pro-lifers have, you can debate the abortion issue with intellect and rational and you never just go off the deep end by letting your emotions get the best of you.

There you go again. Trying to shut down the debate by bringing religion into it.

Creating something (like a person) is simple human biology and has NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION!

 

[Varth Dader]

Says who? You? Who elected YOU Supreme High Arbiter of How People Have To Feel?

A woman can regret making the decision to have sex (or many other decisions) without regretting the decision to give birth to the resultant baby.

Let me clarify for you, Sparky. The circumstances under which I had my first child were VERY not optimal (No, you can't ask. It's none of your business). I regretted those circumstances quite a bit, but I NEVER regretted my child. She was the silver lining on the dark cloud, the blessing that God generously granted me out of adversity. She was also, in many ways, the main reason I regretted the circumstances so much: because I loved her more than anyone in my entire life, and she deserved better. But regretting that I didn't do better by her does NOT equate to regretting HER.

What exactly is there to regret if not the kid? I fail to see any negative outcome for Bristol unless we are talking about here kid. Did she get an STD? Did she get raped?
The baby could only come out of having unprotected sex with her boyfriend, which she did, and apparently it's bad enough she decided to appear in ads to discourage teens for having babies.

the candie's foundation

Anyways, this is to address the issue about Obama. When he said "punished" with a kid, he meant it in that very "not optimal" way you talk about.

Did you seriously just ask me what there is to regret about getting pregnant and having a baby as a teenager, aside from the baby's existence itself? Really?! Why not just ask me if water is wet? I have no intention of wasting time answering such a boneheaded, painfully obvious question. And if you really can't do any better than borderline retardation, I'm going to stop wasting time answering YOU.

I gave you other examples of (negative) consequences that could have occurred, but when Palin (or any one else for that matter) is in any of those ads, the message is clear to me. It says, don't be like me, don't have that baby.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Me making note that christians are creationists shows I have a fevered brain rotted by hatred and a bigot?


Ok you win, that's a very rational assessment.


That's the best attribute you pro-lifers have, you can debate the abortion issue with intellect and rational and you never just go off the deep end by letting your emotions get the best of you.

No, dumbfuck, you taking a quote from the Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address as "Creationism" and "religion" is you being a fevered, hate-filled bigot. And speaking of "letting your emotions get the best of you" . . .

Although the emotion that overwhelmed you might not have been hatred and bigotry. It might just have been desperation to dismiss opponents before you ever had to actually DEBATE them. Better to say, "Oh, you're just religious; I don't have to listen (thank God, because I have no arguments)" than to actually listen to his arguments and, perish forbid, think about them. Right?

What's he gonna do when someone points out that I'm an atheist?

 

[Cecilie1200]

What exactly is there to regret if not the kid? I fail to see any negative outcome for Bristol unless we are talking about here kid. Did she get an STD? Did she get raped?
The baby could only come out of having unprotected sex with her boyfriend, which she did, and apparently it's bad enough she decided to appear in ads to discourage teens for having babies.

the candie's foundation

Anyways, this is to address the issue about Obama. When he said "punished" with a kid, he meant it in that very "not optimal" way you talk about.

Did you seriously just ask me what there is to regret about getting pregnant and having a baby as a teenager, aside from the baby's existence itself? Really?! Why not just ask me if water is wet? I have no intention of wasting time answering such a boneheaded, painfully obvious question. And if you really can't do any better than borderline retardation, I'm going to stop wasting time answering YOU.

I gave you other examples of (negative) consequences that could have occurred, but when Palin (or any one else for that matter) is in any of those ads, the message is clear to me. It says, don't be like me, don't have that baby.

And you really can't imagine saying, "That was a bad life choice, even though something good came out of it" unless someone comes from a poor family, or gets raped, or gets an STD? Christ, you're really dumb, if that's true.

Anyways, there's a WORLD of difference between "these are bad circumstances" and "punished with a baby". Babies are NOT punishment. Even bad circumstances are not "punishment". They're just tough to live with. And babies are wonderful little miracles. Always. I don't even want to IMAGINE being someone who could think otherwise.

 

[JBeukema]

When Bristol Palin campaigns against teen pregnancies, is she saying that she regrets having her baby?

No, she's saying that the circumstances under which she got pregnant with him were not a good idea. If she were campaigning for teenaged abortions, THAT would indicate that she regrets having her baby.

Yeah right. Does she regret her decision? Would she do something different otherwise? If she has no regrets about having her baby, she should also have no regrets about what directly led to it.

Wait a minute.

You're seriously claiming that those women who, after being assaulted or abused, chose to not kill their baby and do not regret giving that child up for adoption or who continue to love and be a mother to their child... must somehow retroactively have been all for being raped?

I see three possibilities:
-You really want to convince yourself women want to be raped

-You're a mentally retarded fuckwit who should've been aborted and can't begin to comprehend human emotions like love

-You're a sorry sack of shit and a troll who gets a kick out of threads like this

In any case, why don't you do the world a favour take a nap with your neck across the train tracks?

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Apparently being polite, which I would find an easy goal to achieve, eludes you.

Want me to be polite? Stop being a dishonest fuckwit and exploiter of rape victims and answer the fucking question. It's not a hard question.

At what point did what fundamental aspect of your nature change that made killing you go from being an okay thing to being a not-okay thing?

So you can't tell me why killing one child is okay and killing another is not okay? You can't tell me why shooting you in the face is not okay but punching a hole in your head and vacuuming your brains out or ripping you limb from limb is
Why?


Why not? What's the difference?


What changed?

Then I would need a very compelling reason, and the only one I can think of is life of the mother.

What about halfway through birth? Or when crowning starts? Zor when her water breaks? Or an hour before that? Or an hour before that? Or an hour before that? Or an hour before that?... ..?

What changes?

8 cells is not a baby. 16 cells is not a baby. 32 cells is not a baby. etc.

If embryos are destroyed in fertility clinics, are these abortions too?

Embryos? Cells?

All the definitions surrounding this subject (from Zygote to Senior-Citizen) are nothing more than a description of certain stages of a human being’s development.

So, as far as I’m concerned, the “blob of cells” argument is worthless because it ultimately boils down to “It’s okay to kill them because they don’t look like us”.

 

[JBeukema]

[
What exactly is there to regret if not the kid?

-Things about the father

-Not being in a better situation to provide for one's child

I fail to see any negative outcome for Bristol unless we are talking about here kid. Did she get an STD? Did she get raped?

It's none of your fucking business. If she wanted you to know, she'd tell you.

The baby could only come out of having unprotected sex with her boyfriend, which she did

I see you don't know anything about birth control and prophylactics.

, and apparently it's bad enough she decided to appear in ads to discourage teens for having babies.

No, she encouraged them to avoid unprotected sex until ready to have children. I've never heard of her encouraging girls to kill their unborn children.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, she's saying that the circumstances under which she got pregnant with him were not a good idea. If she were campaigning for teenaged abortions, THAT would indicate that she regrets having her baby.

Yeah right. Does she regret her decision? Would she do something different otherwise? If she has no regrets about having her baby, she should also have no regrets about what directly led to it.

Wait a minute.

You're seriously claiming that those women who, after being assaulted or abused, chose to not kill their baby and do not regret giving that child up for adoption or who continue to love and be a mother to their child... must somehow retroactively have been all for being raped?

I see three possibilities:
-You really want to convince yourself women want to be raped

-You're a mentally retarded fuckwit who should've been aborted and can't begin to comprehend human emotions like love

-You're a sorry sack of shit and a troll who gets a kick out of threads like this

In any case, why don't you do the world a favour take a nap with your neck across the train tracks?

Harsh, but frankly, I think it's kinda justified.

 

[JBeukema]

I told you, I refuse to engage on a debate on the meaning of the word baby because it is irrelevant.

Your entire argument was that the child wasn't a 'baby' at the earliest stages of development.

What matters is factually what is in the mother's womb

A living human being.

, the right that entity has

All rights rest on the right to one's life

, the right the mother has

To kill for convenience? At any age?

You think that killing an embryo is the same as killing a born human. I don't.

Why? What changes when it moves three feet to the left during the birthing process?


What about when during crowning? One toe inside the mother? Halfway out? What about before the umbilical cord is cut? What about the afterbirth?

What changes when?

 

[JBeukema]

I'll address your [idiotic] questions [that I've answered dozens of time] when you answer my question.

At what point did what change that made killing you in cold blood go from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing?

There is no precise point. It's somewhere between when I was conceived to when I was born.

So nothing changes? So you have no argument other than 'I want to kill babies'?

 

[JBeukema]

Want me to be polite? Stop being a dishonest fuckwit and exploiter of rape victims and answer the fucking question. It's not a hard question.

At what point did what fundamental aspect of your nature change that made killing you go from being an okay thing to being a not-okay thing?

So you can't tell me why killing one child is okay and killing another is not okay? You can't tell me why shooting you in the face is not okay but punching a hole in your head and vacuuming your brains out or ripping you limb from limb is
Why?


Why not? What's the difference?


What changed?

What about halfway through birth? Or when crowning starts? Zor when her water breaks? Or an hour before that? Or an hour before that? Or an hour before that? Or an hour before that?... ..?

What changes?

8 cells is not a baby. 16 cells is not a baby. 32 cells is not a baby. etc.

If embryos are destroyed in fertility clinics, are these abortions too?

Embryos? Cells?

All the definitions surrounding this subject (from Zygote to Senior-Citizen) are nothing more than a description of certain stages of a human being’s development.

So, as far as I’m concerned, the “blob of cells” argument is worthless because it ultimately boils down to “It’s okay to kill them because they don’t look like us”.

Which takes us to margaret sanger and the reason Planned Parenthood exists...

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

I want it to be a states issue

States should decide for themselves whom it's okay to kill?

So reviving the Mormon Extermination Order would be okay with you? What if we say that, to bring down medicare costs, killing anyone over 65 is okay?

Homicide's 'not a big issue'?

so if my state voted into act pro-life legislation it wouldn't be a big deal to me, my only concern would be the creation of an abortion black market where you're moving abortions from the doctors office to the back alley and having women self-perform them.

Why can Democrats find a back-alley abortionist to kill their baby, but not a condom to use in the first place?

Ur other post that you said "such as yourself" you copy and pasted a post and thank yous that didn't include me, so that was confusing.

1.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
2.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
3.) Most pro-lifers I talk to want Roe v Wade overturned and have it turned into a state's issue, which is exactly what I want.
4.) I dunno how/why this became partisan, I've never voted for a democrat in my life, a condom should always be used when no pregnancy is desired but as we both know they aren't 100%.

Don’t you mean you don’t “view it as Murder until a certain time?”

Isn’t it always killing?

 

[Cecilie1200]

States should decide for themselves whom it's okay to kill?

So reviving the Mormon Extermination Order would be okay with you? What if we say that, to bring down medicare costs, killing anyone over 65 is okay?

Homicide's 'not a big issue'?


Why can Democrats find a back-alley abortionist to kill their baby, but not a condom to use in the first place?

Ur other post that you said "such as yourself" you copy and pasted a post and thank yous that didn't include me, so that was confusing.

1.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
2.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
3.) Most pro-lifers I talk to want Roe v Wade overturned and have it turned into a state's issue, which is exactly what I want.
4.) I dunno how/why this became partisan, I've never voted for a democrat in my life, a condom should always be used when no pregnancy is desired but as we both know they aren't 100%.

Don’t you mean you don’t “view it as Murder until a certain time?”

Isn’t it always killing?

He's still laboring under the delusion that "alive" is a matter of opinion and preference.

 

[JBeukema]

States should decide for themselves whom it's okay to kill?

So reviving the Mormon Extermination Order would be okay with you? What if we say that, to bring down medicare costs, killing anyone over 65 is okay?

Homicide's 'not a big issue'?


Why can Democrats find a back-alley abortionist to kill their baby, but not a condom to use in the first place?

Ur other post that you said "such as yourself" you copy and pasted a post and thank yous that didn't include me, so that was confusing.

1.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
2.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
3.) Most pro-lifers I talk to want Roe v Wade overturned and have it turned into a state's issue, which is exactly what I want.
4.) I dunno how/why this became partisan, I've never voted for a democrat in my life, a condom should always be used when no pregnancy is desired but as we both know they aren't 100%.

Don’t you mean you don’t “view it as Murder until a certain time?”

Isn’t it always killing?

Admitting it was killing a human being would mean he'd have to face his conscience. That's why they can't be honest with themselves or others- their conscience tells them they're murderers.

Interesting, one of them here can't say rape and suicide bombings are wrong because admitting one's right to do what one wishes with/to one's body doesn't include acts which cause direct harm to another would be admitting her conscience is right and her rhetoric is bullshit.

 

[Mr_Rockhead]

Ur other post that you said "such as yourself" you copy and pasted a post and thank yous that didn't include me, so that was confusing.

1.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
2.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
3.) Most pro-lifers I talk to want Roe v Wade overturned and have it turned into a state's issue, which is exactly what I want.
4.) I dunno how/why this became partisan, I've never voted for a democrat in my life, a condom should always be used when no pregnancy is desired but as we both know they aren't 100%.

Don’t you mean you don’t “view it as Murder until a certain time?”

Isn’t it always killing?

He's still laboring under the delusion that "alive" is a matter of opinion and preference.

Yes, that does seem to be the case.

 

[JBeukema]

Ur other post that you said "such as yourself" you copy and pasted a post and thank yous that didn't include me, so that was confusing.

1.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
2.) I don't view it as killing until a certain time, you know that.
3.) Most pro-lifers I talk to want Roe v Wade overturned and have it turned into a state's issue, which is exactly what I want.
4.) I dunno how/why this became partisan, I've never voted for a democrat in my life, a condom should always be used when no pregnancy is desired but as we both know they aren't 100%.

Don’t you mean you don’t “view it as Murder until a certain time?”

Isn’t it always killing?

He's still laboring under the delusion that "alive" is a matter of opinion and preference.

or of convenience