Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[JBeukema]

ah but your flaw again is using something that is illegal

So killing a man can be okay if he's a mormon? After all, that used to be legal, too.

Spousal rape was legal until the 60s and 70s.

more flailing i see.
If i need to explain the reasons why those are illegal to you, then its sadder than i thought.

They weren't always illegal.

Yes, killing a young child is legal in the US. So were spousal rape, killing a mormon in Missouri, and slavery.

Do you have some sort of point?

 

[AllieBaba]

Abortion: the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

* my note: the 'removal'. Oh don't they make that sound all clean and non-violent?

Pregnancy: 1. the state or condition of being pregnant 2. the period from conception to childbirth

Abortion | Define Abortion at Dictionary.com
Pregnancy | Define Pregnancy at Dictionary.com


Abortion ends/kills/destroys an individual human being's life.

Stop dancing around the facts.

Now, now, we all know that in the beginning stages of pregnancy women aren't pregnant with HUMAN babies. They just have little tumors growing in them until at some point they decide they want to turn it into a baby! Then and only then does that little mass of tissue magically become a human! It's a miracle! The miracle of carefully engineered and suitably unimportant life!

 

[JBeukema]

Really?? I thought the main argument to keep abortions legal was to protect the mother's health?

Thats not the aspect that JB is stomping around about. He is all up in arms about where life begins and if the mother has the right to "end" that "life" Abortion=murder

Again, c-sections it out and set it on the table at 4 weeks. See if it has life.

Oh, WELL, by the same token, if you take a fish out of water and set it on the table, it'll die too. I guess that means fish aren't alive in the first place.

Somehow, I think this "brilliant" standard of "if it dies under the right circumstances, it must not have been alive in the first place" is going to be a bit problematic.

I'm still amazed that a non-living thing can die

 

[Shadow]

Thats not the aspect that JB is stomping around about. He is all up in arms about where life begins and if the mother has the right to "end" that "life" Abortion=murder

Again, c-sections it out and set it on the table at 4 weeks. See if it has life.

Yes...I know what your abortion "script" says. I've read it all before. It's still a stupid argument for abortion rights,since it goes against your main reason for wanting them in the first place.

Yes...lets just "c-section" the hell out of everyone...to see a "what if" senario

You cant argue with that can you? It is not a stupid argument as C-sections throws the whole " 'life' from fertilization" crap in the garbage.

I don't care how it comes out of a woman if a woman wants it out. If the anti abortion crowd, pro life people want 4 week old tissue...fine. Pleas feel free to adopt what is handed to them after the c- section.

Well..if you don't care how it gets "out" as long as it just "does"...how about you just let them continue to use a coat hanger then? It's less expensive and they can do it at home.

A babies heart starts beating 20 days after conception. Your lame argument does not "dispute" anything.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Abortion: the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

* my note: the 'removal'. Oh don't they make that sound all clean and non-violent?

Pregnancy: 1. the state or condition of being pregnant 2. the period from conception to childbirth

Abortion | Define Abortion at Dictionary.com
Pregnancy | Define Pregnancy at Dictionary.com


Abortion ends/kills/destroys an individual human being's life.

Stop dancing around the facts.

Now, now, we all know that in the beginning stages of pregnancy women aren't pregnant with HUMAN babies. They just have little tumors growing in them until at some point they decide they want to turn it into a baby! Then and only then does that little mass of tissue magically become a human! It's a miracle! The miracle of carefully engineered and suitably unimportant life!

Oh, thought they were lima beans or some other plant . . . you know, since they always like to bring up the whole acorn thing.

 

[JBeukema]

ah but your flaw again is using something that is illegal and after birth.
which seems to be a massive failure of pro-life people. /they consider these thing equal and they are not.

i am being honest.My wife who is 7 months right now as a baby inside her. notice how its inside her? You kind of need the female to have the baby..thats how it works till science can take over. we are not there yet.

you cant escape the fact the fetus comes after the woman.Your logic fails again. Your argument fails again over and over because pro-life people cant handle the simple concept of the facts.

i know exactly what is being aborted. i know exactly the choices that are being made. But i feel it is none of your business and i do not nor ever will need to consult you or anyone else on the matter with how i run my family and life.

Now you need to go and try to use rape to justify your argument? I guess if you flail wildly something might land eventually.

This is just sad.

Murderers always feel it's nobody else's business who or why they kill. It's a TRAIT OF ALL MURDERERS.

And I can certainly escape the "fact" that the woman comes before the fetus. Maybe she will choose to come before the fetus..but I know of women who choose to stop cancer treatments because they are pregnant, knowing their time is very limited if they do. They choose to put the "fetus" before themselves. Usually when the "fetus" isn't even a fetus yet.

What were you saying about flailing wildly? Because that post is a really good example of it.

See the bold......And if they decided to do such, that is their right.
Their body, their rules.

My penis. My rules. My choice.


Your ass...


Rape is cool with you, right? After all, I'm just exercising my right to control my body.

Can you tell me why raping you would be a not-okay thing?

 

[Cecilie1200]

What he is stomping his feet about is where you draw the line of "life"

No, that's a question of biology that was settled a long time ago. Why can't you people ever be honest?

My threshold of where life in and of itself begins, for a baby,

There is not room for opinion. You can't just decide that the earth is flat- it's round whether you like it or not.

You need to understand what is deemed as living tissue in terms of biology.

Blood cells are human, and they are living tissue, they do not have "life"
Skin cells are human, they are living tissue, they do not have "life"
Muscle cells are human, they are living tissue, they do not have "life"

The same applies to zygotes and embryos. They are living tissue and they do not have "life"

No, YOU need to understand the difference between "tissue" and "organisms". Blood, skin, and muscle cells are not organisms. They're JUST cells, parts of an organism. A zygote/embryo, on the other hand, IS an organism. I can't decide if you've just been avoiding reading the multiple, myriad explanations of this very simple biological concept, or if you're just pretending you haven't out of dishonesty.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thats not the aspect that JB is stomping around about. He is all up in arms about where life begins and if the mother has the right to "end" that "life" Abortion=murder

Again, c-sections it out and set it on the table at 4 weeks. See if it has life.

So until a child is old enough to leave the table without falling and cracking its head, find a kitchen, and make a fucking sandwich... kill it anytime, it;s cool with you?

Does she have to get a job and buy her own bread, or is it okay if we give her table scraps?

Don't be ridiculous.

Why? Is that your own private prerogative?

 

[JBeukema]

If your position is defensible- if the ending of this life is a defensible act- then you should be able to demonstrate why this is justifiable or acceptable without denying the facts of what it is you support. When you pretend that we're not dealing with a living human being, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position.

So, plas, sy, and the others:

Are your retarded, liars, or both?

 

[Cecilie1200]

but i am being honest. Its not of your business what my family does.

oh no? Try that line when you're in court for domestic violence and let us know how that works out for yaAnother human being is not your body

Why can't you people ever be honest?

You abort an attempt to copy a file. You don't 'abort' a human life- you kill a human being. People don't 'expire' like a newspaper subscription. They die. It's still fucking shell shock.

That is your choice and should remain so

Like the choice to 'make a deposit' in an 'unwilling sperm recipient'?

ah but your flaw again is using something that is illegal and after birth.
which seems to be a massive failure of pro-life people. /they consider these thing equal and they are not.

i am being honest.My wife who is 7 months right now as a baby inside her. notice how its inside her? You kind of need the female to have the baby..thats how it works till science can take over. we are not there yet.

you cant escape the fact the fetus comes after the woman.Your logic fails again. Your argument fails again over and over because pro-life people cant handle the simple concept of the facts.

i know exactly what is being aborted. i know exactly the choices that are being made. But i feel it is none of your business and i do not nor ever will need to consult you or anyone else on the matter with how i run my family and life.

Now you need to go and try to use rape to justify your argument? I guess if you flail wildly something might land eventually.

This is just sad.

Can anyone else figure out what point this farrago is trying to make? Are we going with "abortion should be legal because abortion is legal", or are we going with "the baby is younger than the mother, so he's not alive", or is it "babies don't spring into existence spontaneously, so they're not alive", or what the fuck else?

My toddler makes more sense than this.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Here's JB's stance verbatim:

If you were to take RU-486 after the child's individual sentience comes into existence, causing the child's death, because you decided the baby was too inconvenient. it's no different than shooting the baby in the head five seconds after birth.

So that is what you can agree or disagree with, if you prefer.

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well, but I don't really care to do so. I am also not 100% sure that is JB's actual beliefs as he trolls.

As to answering your question. Yes, I believe the fetus is a human being and that using RU-486 or any other form of induced abortion is snuffing out its life no differently than shooting it in the head five seconds after birth. And, I will say that I don't consider sentience to be a determining factor in this debate. From the point of conception on, the offspring of a human couple is human. No one can change that.

Induced abortion is the killing of a human being under all circumstances. Whether or not it should be illegal in any or all circumstances is a completely different question.

Immie

My understanding is that JB is pro-choice, but doesn't feel the need to lie and pretend basic biology is something that it isn't in order to facilitate being pro-choice. I'm not entirely sure how he DOES justify abortion under those circumstances, though.

Beukema is equating an embryo to a person with the fallacious argument that they are both named 'human' therefore they must be equivalent in every aspect of humanness.

It's a common mistake.

 

[JBeukema]

oh no? Try that line when you're in court for domestic violence and let us know how that works out for yaAnother human being is not your body

Why can't you people ever be honest?

You abort an attempt to copy a file. You don't 'abort' a human life- you kill a human being. People don't 'expire' like a newspaper subscription. They die. It's still fucking shell shock.
Like the choice to 'make a deposit' in an 'unwilling sperm recipient'?

ah but your flaw again is using something that is illegal and after birth.
which seems to be a massive failure of pro-life people. /they consider these thing equal and they are not.

i am being honest.My wife who is 7 months right now as a baby inside her. notice how its inside her? You kind of need the female to have the baby..thats how it works till science can take over. we are not there yet.

you cant escape the fact the fetus comes after the woman.Your logic fails again. Your argument fails again over and over because pro-life people cant handle the simple concept of the facts.

i know exactly what is being aborted. i know exactly the choices that are being made. But i feel it is none of your business and i do not nor ever will need to consult you or anyone else on the matter with how i run my family and life.

Now you need to go and try to use rape to justify your argument? I guess if you flail wildly something might land eventually.

This is just sad.

Can anyone else figure out what point this farrago is trying to make? Are we going with "abortion should be legal because abortion is legal", or are we going with "the baby is younger than the mother, so he's not alive", or is it "babies don't spring into existence spontaneously, so they're not alive", or what the fuck else?

My toddler makes more sense than this.

They don't know, Cecile. All they know is they want to kill their babies and not get in trouble.

The rest they just make up as they go. There is no underlying logic, reason, or cogent thought or justification.

That much is obvious in every single thread this subject comes up in.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus, infant, baby, toddler, child, teen, adult.

ALL are stages of human development. One stage isn't more human or less human than another stage. The stage of development isn't what makes them human; the FACT that humans beget humans does. How fucking hard is this to understand?

The pro-choice side goes to great lengths to insist that "it's not really a human just yet". Give it a rest. If you're going to claim 'choice' as your argument at least have the balls to admit that your 'choice' (which includes abortion and yeah, that makes you pro-abortion no matter how much you cry that it doesn't) ends the life of another human being. It doesn't end a blob of tissue or some other nonsense, it stops a beating human heart, it ends an individual human life. Stop dancing around that fact. Too bad you don't like it, too bad you find it distasteful. Coming up with bullshit arguments (acorns and fetuses? really??) are nothing more than your way of rationalizing/justifying the killing of a human being. For crying out loud at least own up to what abortion does.

You refuse to acknowledge any difference between a fertilized human egg a few hours old, and yourself,

then do you also, in the interests of intellectual consistency,

believe that the penalty for killing you should be, all else being equal, essentially the same as the killing of that fertilized egg?

 

[JBeukema]

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well, but I don't really care to do so. I am also not 100% sure that is JB's actual beliefs as he trolls.

As to answering your question. Yes, I believe the fetus is a human being and that using RU-486 or any other form of induced abortion is snuffing out its life no differently than shooting it in the head five seconds after birth. And, I will say that I don't consider sentience to be a determining factor in this debate. From the point of conception on, the offspring of a human couple is human. No one can change that.

Induced abortion is the killing of a human being under all circumstances. Whether or not it should be illegal in any or all circumstances is a completely different question.

Immie

My understanding is that JB is pro-choice, but doesn't feel the need to lie and pretend basic biology is something that it isn't in order to facilitate being pro-choice. I'm not entirely sure how he DOES justify abortion under those circumstances, though.

Beukema is equating an embryo to a person with the fallacious argument that they are both named 'human' therefore they must be equivalent in every aspect of humanness.

It's a common mistake.

'Humanness'? You mean the condition of being human? Humans have human offspring. This is basic biology. The child is human from creation and remains human until death. there is no sliding scale of human-ness that you progress across as you age.

 

[JBeukema]

Zygote, blastocyst, embryo, fetus, infant, baby, toddler, child, teen, adult.

ALL are stages of human development. One stage isn't more human or less human than another stage. The stage of development isn't what makes them human; the FACT that humans beget humans does. How fucking hard is this to understand?

The pro-choice side goes to great lengths to insist that "it's not really a human just yet". Give it a rest. If you're going to claim 'choice' as your argument at least have the balls to admit that your 'choice' (which includes abortion and yeah, that makes you pro-abortion no matter how much you cry that it doesn't) ends the life of another human being. It doesn't end a blob of tissue or some other nonsense, it stops a beating human heart, it ends an individual human life. Stop dancing around that fact. Too bad you don't like it, too bad you find it distasteful. Coming up with bullshit arguments (acorns and fetuses? really??) are nothing more than your way of rationalizing/justifying the killing of a human being. For crying out loud at least own up to what abortion does.

You refuse to acknowledge any difference between a fertilized human egg a few hours old, and yourself,

then do you also, in the interests of intellectual consistency,

believe that the penalty for killing you should be, all else being equal, essentially the same as the killing of that fertilized egg?

How old were you when killing you went from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing and why did it suddenly become wrong to kill you?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thats not the aspect that JB is stomping around about. He is all up in arms about where life begins and if the mother has the right to "end" that "life" Abortion=murder

Again, c-sections it out and set it on the table at 4 weeks. See if it has life.

Oh, WELL, by the same token, if you take a fish out of water and set it on the table, it'll die too. I guess that means fish aren't alive in the first place.

Somehow, I think this "brilliant" standard of "if it dies under the right circumstances, it must not have been alive in the first place" is going to be a bit problematic.

I'm still amazed that a non-living thing can die

I'm amazed that these geniuses can find the ON button on the computer.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Well, if I wanted to search through enough of JB's posts, I think I can find where he has supported the pro-choice point of view as well, but I don't really care to do so. I am also not 100% sure that is JB's actual beliefs as he trolls.

As to answering your question. Yes, I believe the fetus is a human being and that using RU-486 or any other form of induced abortion is snuffing out its life no differently than shooting it in the head five seconds after birth. And, I will say that I don't consider sentience to be a determining factor in this debate. From the point of conception on, the offspring of a human couple is human. No one can change that.

Induced abortion is the killing of a human being under all circumstances. Whether or not it should be illegal in any or all circumstances is a completely different question.

Immie

My understanding is that JB is pro-choice, but doesn't feel the need to lie and pretend basic biology is something that it isn't in order to facilitate being pro-choice. I'm not entirely sure how he DOES justify abortion under those circumstances, though.

Beukema is equating an embryo to a person with the fallacious argument that they are both named 'human' therefore they must be equivalent in every aspect of humanness.

It's a common mistake.

An infant and a teenager are both human. Are they equivalent in every aspect of humanness? Is one 'more human' than the other because of what developmental stage it is in?

An embryo is a human being in the very earliest stages of development. The stage of development doesn't make it human nor does it make it more human or less human; it is a human being from the very beginning.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I support the principles established Roe v. Wade

You mean perjury? Norma McCorvey has stated repeatedly that her entire story was bullshit

Why do you believe her 'post' version over her 'pre' version?

Because he's not rational.

 

[JBeukema]

An embryo is a human being in the very earliest stages of development.

Wouldn't that actually be a zygote?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Abortion: the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

* my note: the 'removal'. Oh don't they make that sound all clean and non-violent?

Pregnancy: 1. the state or condition of being pregnant 2. the period from conception to childbirth

Abortion | Define Abortion at Dictionary.com
Pregnancy | Define Pregnancy at Dictionary.com


Abortion ends/kills/destroys an individual human being's life.

Stop dancing around the facts.

Now, now, we all know that in the beginning stages of pregnancy women aren't pregnant with HUMAN babies. They just have little tumors growing in them until at some point they decide they want to turn it into a baby! Then and only then does that little mass of tissue magically become a human! It's a miracle! The miracle of carefully engineered and suitably unimportant life!

Oh, thought they were lima beans or some other plant . . . you know, since they always like to bring up the whole acorn thing.

My mom did tell me once when I was a kid that if you swallowed watermelon seeds, a watermelon would grow in your stomach, but I thought she was joking.