Why do the God-haters persist?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

If the God Pretenders went away, I'm sure the God Haters would be right behind them.

Like I don’t hate boss. He’s making the same arguments men were making before Moses lies and said god visited.

Boss doesn’t say you’ll go to hell for not believing. If he does I’d like to know where he came up with such a notion.

I would just be adamant that no there does not have to be a creator. There could be but there doesn’t have to be

Right. And I would, personally, never "hate god", because it is an absurd notion to hate something that you do not believe exists. And I think that, if there were "one God", he would be a pretty benevolent entity and would be nothing like the immoral, vain, evil, unethical, and frankly stupid god described in the abrahamic religions.

I can just see so clearly how are primitive ancestors came up with god heaven and hell. First you must conclude there is a god. Then what is your purpose? What does god want? So then you start talking about good and evil. The golden rule. Etc.

Then what happens to bad people? Where’s gramma?

It’s so obvious.

So I go about my life not believing in god but still living my life by asking would god approve? So I don’t murder or steal. But I may have one night stands or curse or lie now and again. I may even work on Sunday and use the lords name in vein and I most certainly worship other gods and idols....just in case

I do not give it a single thought, really. If i reach moral and ethical decisions by reason, I go all in with confidence. And I certainly have no interest in trying to convince anyone to abandon any religion. My only interest in religious beliefs is that the same suspension of incredulity required to adopt these magical paradigms is what leads people to believe all manner of nonsense, much of it harmful. It is not coincidence that so many Evangelical Americans also deny evolution and climate science. It is no coincidence that so many mystic hippies also believe fluoride and vaccination nonsense.

 

[Boss]

Boss doesn’t say you’ll go to hell for not believing. If he does I’d like to know where he came up with such a notion.

I don't know about "hell" per say but I do believe there is ultimately "cosmic justice" for allowing your soul to descend to a fallen state of evil. Reason being, natural order and logic. There is a reason we are compelled toward good and away from evil, toward the light and away from the dark. Even the most devout atheist recognizes this. Even other forms of life seem to intrinsically know this. Why would every indicator point to this if there were no reason?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Boss doesn’t say you’ll go to hell for not believing. If he does I’d like to know where he came up with such a notion.

I don't know about "hell" per say but I do believe there is ultimately "cosmic justice" for allowing your soul to descend to a fallen state of evil. Reason being, natural order and logic. There is a reason we are compelled toward good and away from evil, toward the light and away from the dark. Even the most devout atheist recognizes this. Even other forms of life seem to intrinsically know this. Why would every indicator point to this if there were no reason?

And some species engage explicitly in forms of behavior that we would consider "evil" if we engaged in them, and they do so for evolutionary reasons. I doubt anyone would hesitate to call a newlywed human bride "evil" for dining on her husband's head, right after consummating the marriage.

Why would our ability to empathize not also arise purely from selective forces, just as does the "evil" behavior we see in other creatures? It does, of course. You think we are "guided toward good"? Hah, no, that is merely a construct. It's an invention of a mind (yours) gifted with the ability of language and culture, a culture into which you were born purely by genetic accident. Go ahead and walk into the territory of an unmet tribe in lower South America... they may kill you immediately, simply in case you trap a small rodent in their territory which might have been part of their dinner one day. Of course, in our modern society, which comes with our modern morals derived from REASON, we would consider killing someone over a small rodent (a la, dinner) to be "evil", and we would consider the act itself to be "evil". In fact, we might collectively agree to murder that person (e.g., give them the electric chair) afterward.

Our sense of empathy arose hand in hand with our evolutionary progress toward social groups. That same tribe that would kill an intruder then eat his brains also does good deeds for one another within the tribe. Why? Spirituality? "Higher purpose"? Pffftt.... there is no need to add these goofy magical layers to explain anything. It's hard-wired right into their makeup to do so. If it weren't, our species would have evolved very differently, or even not at all. Without this hard-wired empathy, there would be no "tribe".

 

[Boss]

Boss doesn’t say you’ll go to hell for not believing. If he does I’d like to know where he came up with such a notion.

I don't know about "hell" per say but I do believe there is ultimately "cosmic justice" for allowing your soul to descend to a fallen state of evil. Reason being, natural order and logic. There is a reason we are compelled toward good and away from evil, toward the light and away from the dark. Even the most devout atheist recognizes this. Even other forms of life seem to intrinsically know this. Why would every indicator point to this if there were no reason?

And some species engage explicitly in forms of behavior that we would consider "evil" if we engaged in them, and they do so for evolutionary reasons. I doubt anyone would hesitate to call a newlywed human bride "evil" for dining on her husband's head, right after consummating the marriage.

Why would our ability to empathize not also arise purely from selective forces, just as does the "evil" behavior we see in other creatures? It does, of course. You think we are "guided toward good"? Hah, no, that is merely a construct. It's an invention of a mind gifted with the ability of language and culture, a culture into which you were born purely by genetic accident. Go ahead and walk into the territory of an unmet tribe in lower South America... they may kill you immediately, simply in case you trap a small rodent in their territory which might have been their dinner one day. Of course, in our modern society, which comes with our modern morals derived from REASON, we would consider killing someone over a small rodent (a la, dinner) to be "evil", and we would consider the act itself to be "evil". In fact, we might collectively agree to murder that person (e.g., give them the electric chair) afterward.

Our sense of empathy arose hand in hand with our evolutionary progress toward social groups. That same tribe that would kill an intruder then eat his brains also does good deeds for one another within the tribe. Why? Spirituality? "Higher purpose"? Pffftt.... there is no need to add these goofy magical layers to explain anything. It's hard-wired right into their makeup to do so. If it weren't, our species would have evolved very differently, or even not at all. Without this hard-wired empathy, there would be no "tribe".

Our ability to "REASON" is derived from our intrinsic spiritual connection to something greater than self.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Our ability to "REASON" is derived from our intrinsic spiritual connection to something greater than self.

That's a magical, authoritative declaration for which you have not a shred of evidence. I, on the other hand, can show that the ability to reason differs among animals by degree, and not necessarily by kind, and I can then trace its evolutionary origins quite nicely. I can explain this evolved ability to reason (not just in humans) by pointing out how it helps survival by enhancing individuals' ability to evaluate each others statements and arguments, and therefore enhance communication, and therefore enhance survival.



See... explained, without a single iota of magical bullshit required. Now, to be clear, I am not arguing that what you are saying is false, so please do not make that error. I am saying it is useless and unnecessary. It's like saying your car didn't start yesterday "Because the battery died due to a bad alternator, which happened because of bad karma from smacking that baby that one time". See which part of that is useless and explains nothing and yields no useful predictions? Easy answer.

 

[Boss]

Our ability to "REASON" is derived from our intrinsic spiritual connection to something greater than self.

That's a magical, authoritative declaration for which you have not a shred of evidence. I, on the other hand, can show that the ability to reason differs among animals by degree, and not necessarily by kind, and I can then trace its evolutionary origins quite nicely. I can explain this evolved ability to reason (not just in humans) by pointing out how it helps survival by enhancing individuals' ability to evaluate each others statements and arguments, and therefore enhance communication, and therefore enhance survival.



See... explained, without a single iota of magical bullshit required. Now, to be clear, I am not arguing that what you are saying is false, so please do not make that error. I am saying it is useless and unnecessary. It's like saying your car didn't start yesterday "Because the battery died due to a bad alternator, which happened because of bad karma from smacking that baby that one time". See which part of that is useless and explains nothing and yields no useful predictions? Easy answer.

I never said a thing about magic.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I never said a thing about magic.

Because you think your magic is special and is above being called "magic". You, and everyone else who has a favorite, magical idea. You all get offended in the same way. I'll call it magic, and you can use prettier phrases meant to beguile and charm, like "higher power" and "spiritual". Looks like we understand each other.

 

[Marion Morrison]

We see them here everyday, interjecting their hate-filled insultuous attacks on the religious, mocking and ridiculing to a bizarre extreme, anything and everything to do with God. They largely profess to be "Atheists" although some, as if to denote a hint of reluctance to go quite that far, will claim agnosticism instead. Best play it safe if we're dealing with a super-force who can send you to the pits of hell for all eternity, eh? But they have a dirty little secret they don't want any of us to know. They are not, in fact, Atheists or agnostic.

True Atheists have absolutely no inclination to attack people who profess religious belief. If anything, they are amused by the "believers" and find them a bit of a novelty. Much like an adult who encounters a child believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny. There is no harm to the adult in such beliefs, the adult knows these are not real entities, and it's simply an amusement to them. In fact, they may even 'play along' with the idea, just in the name of fun. What does it hurt? No, you don't see hoards of smart-assed punks at the mall where Santa visits, ridiculing and belittling the people standing in line to see him. Message boards aren't clogged up with degenerate misfits decrying the belief of a giant bunny who brings candy and hides eggs, because it doesn't really matter to anyone that some people entertain this notion.

Oh but it's because those are just kids, Boss! Well okay, let's take the thousands of nutty conspiracy theories out there. Do you see any evidence of people devoting every waking hour to go on message boards and forums to "inform" these people how they are crazy and misinformed? Nope. It doesn't matter. As long as you know something is too far-fetched to be true, you could care less what other people think. If someone wants to think Elvis is still alive on some remote island, what difference does that make to me? I might be inclined to casually comment that I don't believe it, but I am certainly not devoting the bulk of my energy and time online to categorically try and refute any inkling of thought pertaining to such a theory. And I am certainly not going to the extreme efforts to ridicule and insult the nuts who believe such theories. It's just not that important to me, nor to anyone else for that matter.

But with the God-haters and God, things are quite different. Although they claim to be Atheists or agnostics, my suspicion is they are anything but. It appears they are devout believers in God, who fully understand the power of God and how much God influences others who believe in Him. To put it in simple terms, they fear God. They are afraid if they do not stand up and fight God with all their might, God may become a bigger influence and that wouldn't be good for them, for whatever reason.

Most of the time, these reasons center around that person's life choices. They have totally abandoned the God they very much believe in, so they can be unaccountable for their moral behaviors. As long as there is "no god" to judge them, they can do whatever they please and there are no consequences. It's important that we understand, any time someone is doing something immoral or wrong, they had rather have company. This provides a codependency, a way they can somehow justify their behavior to themselves.

So this is why the God-haters persist on message boards and forums, to 'recruit' people over to their way of thinking. They believe they can ridicule and cajole people into being ashamed of their beliefs and those people will ultimately join their faction. If nothing else, it is 'therapeutic' for them to vent their anger and vitriol toward the God they know is real, and they are almost certain to meet up with others who are doing the same thing.

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

 

[Marion Morrison]

I never said a thing about magic.

Because you think your magic is special and is above being called "magic". You, and everyone else who has a favorite, magical idea. You all get offended in the same way. I'll call it magic, and you can use prettier phrases meant to beguile and charm, like "higher power" and "spiritual". Looks like we understand each other.

The thing is, you understand nothing, and have been robbed of the ability to think for yourself, unlike so many before you.

Denying students critical thinking training is a fairly new occurrence. Sorry bub, you got screwed.

 

[Indeependent]

I never said a thing about magic.

Because you think your magic is special and is above being called "magic". You, and everyone else who has a favorite, magical idea. You all get offended in the same way. I'll call it magic, and you can use prettier phrases meant to beguile and charm, like "higher power" and "spiritual". Looks like we understand each other.

There are few people as obnoxious as atheists.
Even a Jehovah's Witness will back off after I point out to them they don't know Hebrew.
But you are the 2 year old cynic in the kindergarten room.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Denying students critical thinking training is a fairly new occurrence.

Sorry brokeback, you got the wrong guy. If it were up to me, i would start teaching logic in about 3rd grade.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Even a Jehovah's Witness will back off after I point out to them they don't know Hebrew.

What does that have to do with anyone calling either of your magical religions, "magic"? Nothing, really.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Denying students critical thinking training is a fairly new occurrence.

Sorry brokeback, you got the wrong guy. If it were up to me, i would start teaching logic in about 3rd grade.

Let's hear some of your logic, then.

Tell us all about how subjective morality isn't the reason for the increase in mass shootings.

Tell us more about how every man has his own morality and there is no standard moral code.

There is, and then there's people that choose to ignore it, which they are free to do, because God gave man free will.

If you want to choose to be ignorant, and think you're not living in God's world, then so be it! You are free!

But you will never understand what's really going on.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Denying students critical thinking training is a fairly new occurrence.

Sorry brokeback, you got the wrong guy. If it were up to me, i would start teaching logic in about 3rd grade.

Let's hear some of your logic, then.

What would you like to me to argue, fine sir?

 

[Indeependent]

Even a Jehovah's Witness will back off after I point out to them they don't know Hebrew.

What does that have to do with anyone calling either of your magical religions, "magic"? Nothing, really.

I don't care that you're an atheist and you shouldn't care that anyone besides yourself believes in God unless they're sticking it up your nose.
And having a relationship with God is not magic.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Tell us all about how subjective morality isn't the reason for the increase in mass shootings.

OKay.

There has been virtually nothing but immoral and moral behavior since the first society sprang up. Second, all morality is, indeed, subjective, in that the premises we use are chosen subjectively. Trust me, you have better morals than your average equivalent from the year 1400, or 800. Why? You get most of your morality from reason, not from religion. But, the only subjective thing about reason-based morals are their premises. Do you believe blacks are humans or subhumans, for instance? Why? Your choice is your premise from which you argue your morals. I have this little feeling most of us here would have had different answers to that question, were we all born 300 years ago.

So, no, "subjective morality" itself is not responsible for anything, just as a hammer is not responsible for bashing someone's head in. Culture and anti-culture is responsible.

I would argue that much more responsible (as in, 100 to zero) is the information age. People want these mass shootings to be heard and seen around the world. Else, they would be using a different tactic than lone wolf events. They are deadly, but they are propaganda tools. A war of information, not attrition, when it comes to terrorist shooters. When people just lose it and kill mom and dad and shoot up the school? They want to be somebody. As our culture changes, which is frankly really stupid when it comes to guns, these events change. Did the guy climb the bell tower and because of "subjective morality"? No, and saying so explains absolutely nothing. He was clinically psychopathic and wanted to be famous.

 

[Boss]

I never said a thing about magic.

Because you think your magic is special and is above being called "magic". You, and everyone else who has a favorite, magical idea. You all get offended in the same way. I'll call it magic, and you can use prettier phrases meant to beguile and charm, like "higher power" and "spiritual". Looks like we understand each other.

Magic is the word you are using for something you can't comprehend. There is nothing "magical" about spiritual nature.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Tell us all about how subjective morality isn't the reason for the increase in mass shootings.

OKay.

There has been virtually nothing but immoral and moral behavior since the first society sprang up. Second, all morality is, indeed, subjective, in that the premises we use are chosen subjectively. Trust me, you have better morals than you average equivalent from the year 1400, or 800. Why? You get most of your morality from reason, not from religion. But, it's the only subjective thing about reason-based morals are their premises. Do you believe blacks are humans or subhumans, for instance? Why? Your choice is your premise from which you argue your morals. I have this little feeling most of us here would have had different answers to that question, were we all born 300 years ago.

So, no, "subjective morality" itself is not responsible for anything, just as a hammer is not responsible for bashing someone's head in. Culture and anti-culture is responsible.

I would argue that much more responsible (as in, 100 to zero) is the information age. People want these mass shootings to be heard and seen around the world. Else, they would be using a different tactic, than lone wolf events. They are deadly, but they are propaganda tools. A war of information, vs. attrition, when it comes to ISIS. When people just lose it and kill mom and dad and shoot up the school? They want to be somebody. As our culture changes, which is frankly really stupid when it comes to guns, these events change. Did the guy climb the bell tower and because of "subjective morality"? No, and saying so explains absolutely nothing. He was clinically psychopathic and wanted to be famous.

You keep telling yourself that. Let me know when you truly believe it.

Ecclesiastes 3 KJV

 

[Slyhunter]

Boss doesn’t say you’ll go to hell for not believing. If he does I’d like to know where he came up with such a notion.

I don't know about "hell" per say but I do believe there is ultimately "cosmic justice" for allowing your soul to descend to a fallen state of evil. Reason being, natural order and logic. There is a reason we are compelled toward good and away from evil, toward the light and away from the dark. Even the most devout atheist recognizes this. Even other forms of life seem to intrinsically know this. Why would every indicator point to this if there were no reason?

If death is simply the transition from a material state to an immaterial one then murder is not evil.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And having a relationship with God is not magic.

But gods are magic and miracles are magic. What word do you prefer? "Miraculous"? "Metaphysical"? "Spiritual"? I have to pick one to describe these beliefs. And I am going to use the same word for all manner of magical beliefs, like chiropractic, , Ouija boards, Wicca, Astrology, Voodoo, Homeopathic medicine.... all of this magical thought goes on the same shelf, for me. so, if not "magical",.... then, what? "Bullshit?" What?