Why I Am Not A Christian

[del]

I'm a Christian because you can do whatever you want in your life, then repent and accept Jesus on your deathbed and still get into heaven.

That's awesome.

i'm a uu- we don't believe in hell and everybody goes to heaven eventually.

works for me

 

[Anguille]

I did




So I will ask again if you care to elaborate on this statement.

What I said pretty much sums up as well as I can put it as to why I am repulsed by the cross symbol. I remember the first time I saw a Dying Jesus on a cross. I was about 9 and it was in the main Cathedral of Montreal. It scared the bejesus out of me , no pun ...., . I think it's freaky to glorify suffering.

Are you sure you don't mean sadistic overtones? When you say masochistic do you mean speaking from a "roman" POV or the guy on the cross POV?

I would consider the entire thing more sadistic then masochistic.

No. To me the cross is a call to sacrifice oneself. I think it encourages people to become victims. To lay down and die. That's just my point of view and how it has always affected me. Everyone has their own experience.

 

[Toro]

i'm not a christian because i don't believe christ was divine.

thank you

You don't have to believe he was divine to be a Christian. Even Jesus himself made a few statements that denied divinity. The most obvious is he said he didn't know when the End Day would happen.

So I'm not sure where you're getting your info but I'd double check.

last time i checked, to be a christian meant that one believed that jesus was god. i don't believe that. i don't believe in an end day, either. i don't know if i'm right or wrong, but that's what i believe.

I've never known Jesus to be God. I've always known Jesus to be the son of God.

But I'm a lazy Christian. I'll go ask Neubarth.

 

[Anguille]

i'm not a christian because i don't believe christ was divine.

thank you

You don't have to believe he was divine to be a Christian. Even Jesus himself made a few statements that denied divinity. The most obvious is he said he didn't know when the End Day would happen.

So I'm not sure where you're getting your info but I'd double check.

God forbid del, or anyone should have a different interpretation than you.

 

[syrenn]

What I said pretty much sums up as well as I can put it as to why I am repulsed by the cross symbol. I remember the first time I saw a Dying Jesus on a cross. I was about 9 and it was in the main Cathedral of Montreal. It scared the bejesus out of me , no pun ...., . I think it's freaky to glorify suffering.

Are you sure you don't mean sadistic overtones? When you say masochistic do you mean speaking from a "roman" POV or the guy on the cross POV?

I would consider the entire thing more sadistic then masochistic.

No. To me the cross is a call to sacrifice oneself. I think it encourages people to become victims. To lay down and die. That's just my point of view and how it has always affected me. Everyone has their own experience.

I don't know if "masochism" works for me in describing glorying suffering. I think that crhistians think of it more as a veneration of the suffering that was endured. For me the inception of the "idol" of the cross was that it was part of the "picture book bible" way to explain and bring people to understanding of the event when the bible was only read in Latin by the clergy.

But I sure see how that image would scare the shit out of a child.

 

[Anguille]

Are you sure you don't mean sadistic overtones? When you say masochistic do you mean speaking from a "roman" POV or the guy on the cross POV?

I would consider the entire thing more sadistic then masochistic.

No. To me the cross is a call to sacrifice oneself. I think it encourages people to become victims. To lay down and die. That's just my point of view and how it has always affected me. Everyone has their own experience.

I don't know if "masochism" works for me in describing glorying suffering. I think that crhistians think of it more as a veneration of the suffering that was endured. For me the inception of the "idol" of the cross was that it was part of the "picture book bible" way to explain and bring people to understanding of the event when the bible was only read in Latin by the clergy.

But I sure see how that image would scare the shit out of a child.

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Glad you can see that. I also see your other point.

 

[syrenn]

Glad you can see that. I also see your other point.

I think it was meant to scare. I think it was meant to inspire aw. In that I have always seen what you meant and understood.

 

[del]

You don't have to believe he was divine to be a Christian. Even Jesus himself made a few statements that denied divinity. The most obvious is he said he didn't know when the End Day would happen.

So I'm not sure where you're getting your info but I'd double check.

last time i checked, to be a christian meant that one believed that jesus was god. i don't believe that. i don't believe in an end day, either. i don't know if i'm right or wrong, but that's what i believe.

I've never known Jesus to be God. I've always known Jesus to be the son of God.

But I'm a lazy Christian. I'll go ask Neubarth.

i was raised in a trinitarian religion.

you're definitely making the right move asking neubarth, especially since pubes is unavailable.

 

[CurveLight]

i'm not a christian because i don't believe christ was divine.

thank you

You don't understand how people getting all excited over a story which you describe as "a long slow, excruciating death" as having masochistic overtones? I think this is yet another one of those times where you don't actually understand the meaning of certain words but try to refute them anyway.

This is why you are not smarter than a hick you dumbfuck.

mas·och·ism *(ms-kzm)n.1. The deriving of sexual gratification, or the tendency to derive sexual gratification, from being physically or emotionally abused.

Even if you remove the sexual component how fucked up do you have to be to think Jesus received any type of pleasure? Or anyone who was crucified? What the fuck is wrong with you?

Ah very good. You figured out how to use the dictionary. Unfortunately, you appear to lack the capability of understanding that words have multiple definitions. Had you read down past #1, you would have seen:
mas·och·ism:
2. gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degradation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself, either as a result of one's own actions or the actions of others
alt 3. A willingness or tendency to subject oneself to unpleasant or trying experiences.

So no need to remove the sexual aspect as the word doesn't necessitate it. Did Jesus "subject [him]self to unpleasant or trying experiences"? Do people gain gratification from the telling of the story despite pain, deprivation, and degradation inflicted or imposed as a result of the actions of others? You've already established you are incapable of basic reading comprehension. Cherry picking a single dictionary definition, believing it is the end all meaning of a word, and ignoring all other definitions is just laughable.

No. Jesus did not subject himself to it you dumb bitch.

Why do ***** like you get so caught up in trying to prove others wrong that you fail to realize how much you make an ass of yourself? There is nothing in any of 2 or 3 that applies you ignorant fuck.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Oh? Are you really trying to say Jesus didn't subject himself to pain and torment? Did he not know his actions were leading to public outcry for punishment? Did he not predict he would be betrayed and yet did not flee? Did he not refuse wine laced with a drug to lessen pain?

You do know your own religion, right? Cuz from my perspective it appears that he knowingly allowed for the maximum amount of pain to be endured, despite being given multiple opportunities to avoid or reduce it. And yet you claim he in no way subjected himself to to unpleasant or trying experiences? Perhaps you should go look up more words in the dictionary. Be sure to get past the first definition this time.

 

[CurveLight]

No. To me the cross is a call to sacrifice oneself. I think it encourages people to become victims. To lay down and die. That's just my point of view and how it has always affected me. Everyone has their own experience.

I don't know if "masochism" works for me in describing glorying suffering. I think that crhistians think of it more as a veneration of the suffering that was endured. For me the inception of the "idol" of the cross was that it was part of the "picture book bible" way to explain and bring people to understanding of the event when the bible was only read in Latin by the clergy.

But I sure see how that image would scare the shit out of a child.

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Glad you can see that. I also see your other point.

That was when you were nine. How old are you now?

 

[CurveLight]

No. To me the cross is a call to sacrifice oneself. I think it encourages people to become victims. To lay down and die. That's just my point of view and how it has always affected me. Everyone has their own experience.

I don't know if "masochism" works for me in describing glorying suffering. I think that crhistians think of it more as a veneration of the suffering that was endured. For me the inception of the "idol" of the cross was that it was part of the "picture book bible" way to explain and bring people to understanding of the event when the bible was only read in Latin by the clergy.

But I sure see how that image would scare the shit out of a child.

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Glad you can see that. I also see your other point.

You don't have to believe he was divine to be a Christian. Even Jesus himself made a few statements that denied divinity. The most obvious is he said he didn't know when the End Day would happen.

So I'm not sure where you're getting your info but I'd double check.

last time i checked, to be a christian meant that one believed that jesus was god. i don't believe that. i don't believe in an end day, either. i don't know if i'm right or wrong, but that's what i believe.

I've never known Jesus to be God. I've always known Jesus to be the son of God.

But I'm a lazy Christian. I'll go ask Neubarth.

Son of God is still an assignment of divinity.

 

[CurveLight]

Oh? Are you really trying to say Jesus didn't subject himself to pain and torment? Did he not know his actions were leading to public outcry for punishment? Did he not predict he would be betrayed and yet did not flee? Did he not refuse wine laced with a drug to lessen pain?

You do know your own religion, right? Cuz from my perspective it appears that he knowingly allowed for the maximum amount of pain to be endured, despite being given multiple opportunities to avoid or reduce it. And yet you claim he in no way subjected himself to to unpleasant or trying experiences? Perhaps you should go look up more words in the dictionary. Be sure to get past the first definition this time.

Oh boy you are one dumb hick. This is your free tutor lesson of the day. If you require anymore you must first obtain paypal info and pay a sufficient amount. So. Please. Pay. Attention.

A masochist will subject him/herself to punishment/pain purely out of seeking that pain. They will often go to a place....house in the suburbs or a "massage" parlor in the city and they will pay money or be in a reciprocal relationship.

What Jesus did was accept the consequences of his actions. He accepted responsibility for his actions. That is not "subjecting yourself to pain" you dumb fucking hick. He did not run to the Roman/Temple rulers and say:

"Oh please beat the fuck out of me for the hell of it."

You really should not get your biblical knowledge from shitty snuff films made my anti-Semitic fuckwads like Gibson.

Do you see the difference yet? If not....get ready to paypal your way to another lesson you drowner.

 

[CurveLight]

Glad you can see that. I also see your other point.

I think it was meant to scare. I think it was meant to inspire aw. In that I have always seen what you meant and understood.

It has often been twisted to fit a political agenda and some fall out from that agenda can be seen in this op. It is a morose irony because Jesus died on the Cross largely to say:

"You are Forgiven"

but power fucking control freaks have been trying to molest that message into saying:

"You should feel Guilty."

 

[CurveLight]

Glad you can see that. I also see your other point.

I think it was meant to scare. I think it was meant to inspire aw. In that I have always seen what you meant and understood.

last time i checked, to be a christian meant that one believed that jesus was god. i don't believe that. i don't believe in an end day, either. i don't know if i'm right or wrong, but that's what i believe.

I've never known Jesus to be God. I've always known Jesus to be the son of God.

But I'm a lazy Christian. I'll go ask Neubarth.

i was raised in a trinitarian religion.

you're definitely making the right move asking neubarth, especially since pubes is unavailable.

UU is an acronym for:

"I want to cover all the bases so in case I'm personally wrong I don't have to accept the consequences."

(Many friends are UU and they laugh when I say that. I dated a UUSC employee in Cambridge for a while too so I'm somewhat familiar and a good friend has recently been given a UU Minister position in Maine)

 

[THE LIGHT]

God has no gender

The G-d of the Bible does.

So you're saying there is more than one God. Okay.

No, I am saying that the G-d of the Bible is not genderless...which has absolutely nothing to do with how many gods there are.

 

[THE LIGHT]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. All religion, all the time, 24/7. I said the rosary every night and went to Confession every Saturday. I had Religious Instruction every day at school. So why didn't it stick?

The first thing I objected to was this need some folks seemed to have to have their asses kissed because they were Clergy. It didn't help that they were, almost to a person, sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits. Ass kissing has just never been part of my skill set. I had a checkmark for "fails to show proper respect to Clergy" on my report card even single time for a decade -- and every time I would think "seems like the proper amount of respect to me -- ZERO."

So in no special order of importance, here's a list of the reasons I am not a Christian. I am hoping someone who is can address any of them and we can dialogue.

I can see that you were raised under the law and not under grace which is what has turned many people away from G-d.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

Just because I create evil doesn't mean you have to choose it. You even say so later on in your argument. So that excuse in your words "doesn't wash."

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here?

Because it is a personal choice...no one is forcing it on you.

There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering.

Some of those wars occured because of those with the idea that you just stated thought "they" had to usher in the peace of Christ so they went on crusades to bring about Christ's reign. Those imbiciles thought that Christ couldn't do it himself.

I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

It appears that you aren't understanding it. Christians understnd very well that they ARE saved. Saved by grace.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

The Holy Spirit IS G-d.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

.... this issue is a big space taker so I won't go to far ... but are you telling me that you don't understand how you and your spouse are "one" (supposing you are married)? The Bible says that you are "one." Not that I am saying that is an all inclusive explanation of the Trinity because in understanding the Trinity you have to remember that we are 4 dimensional being trying to understand a multidimensional being.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

I'm having trouble reading through the sarcasim on this one. Could you rephrase it?

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion?

Just because a nut calls themself a Christian doesn't mean that their actions are Christ like.

If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

Because there is no such thing as a vacuum of ideology.

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

I don't know if "evil" is so much the word. "Sensless" better describes it. Again, just because there are nuts that call themselves Christians doesn't mean that what they do is Christ like. G-d places His desires in our hearts that we may seek that which honors Him and brings Him the glory. If passing a test or winning a football game does this then it is very sensible to do so... Also rember, G-d is your Father. If you are a father or mother, I am sure you would want to bless your children, wouldn't you?

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

Well if G-d doesn't exist then "what is evil?" and what does it matter? If G-d does exist then it is more important to find out what he wants rather than what "we" want. All the evil committed has been in the name of people wanting concerned about what "they" wanted rather than what G-d wanted.

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you?

A man in a red jump suit is a common falicy. Satan is actually a very beautiful creature. (Ezekiel 28:11-19)

Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

But what is evil and who determines it? What if I define "evil" differently that you do?

For example, when it comes to speeding, I could go 70 miles per hour on a highway which would be perfectly lawful, but come to a small rural road and find out that going that speed makes me an evil criminal... Was it the speed that made me a criminal? NO... it was the law that made me a criminal at that speed in that zone.

If there is no supreme being from which absolutes are derived, then nothing is absolute and everyone is their own god judging what is right or wrong in their own eyes.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

G-d is a G-d of LOVE, not of laws. Laws were only given to show man that he is sinful and to point him towards his maker. Real love can only come from the heart.

 

[Amanda]

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. All religion, all the time, 24/7. I said the rosary every night and went to Confession every Saturday. I had Religious Instruction every day at school. So why didn't it stick?

The first thing I objected to was this need some folks seemed to have to have their asses kissed because they were Clergy. It didn't help that they were, almost to a person, sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits. Ass kissing has just never been part of my skill set. I had a checkmark for "fails to show proper respect to Clergy" on my report card even single time for a decade -- and every time I would think "seems like the proper amount of respect to me -- ZERO."

So in no special order of importance, here's a list of the reasons I am not a Christian. I am hoping someone who is can address any of them and we can dialogue.

1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? I have heard every single justification for this, from free will to the "evil is necessary so goodness an show up by contrast" one. None of them wash with me.

The correct answer is free will whether it washes with you or not. There wouldn't be any point to any of this if we didn't have free will.

2. If Christ is the Messiah, then why didn't humanity enjoy a better life after he was here? There were still wars, and poverty, and suffering. I don't think most Christians understand the Jewish concept of a "Messiah". That person is supposed to SAVE us. I'm not feeling the saving bit so much.

It apparently isn't time yet.

3. I don't get what the Holy Spirit is about. A Supreme Being that seems not to have existed before God wanted to knock Mary up and now has no purpose at all.

I have issues with the "trinity" idea too. I think it was Paul's attempt to appeal to the polytheistic people he was trying to reach.

4. The notion of a Trinity seems to contradict the first of the Ten Commandments: monotheism. If there is only one God, there cannot be three. It just isn't rational.

See #3.

5. Speaking of rational, thanks for the condemnation of abortion, birth control, sex for Clergy (that paid off so well, didn't it?), people who are not Catholic (or whatever flavor you may be), etc. A special thanks to the "Creationism" nutters who've brought a new age of enlightenment into the classroom.

I think you're making a common mistake, and that is blaming God for what people have done.

6. How is it "Christian" to deny food or medical care to a child if their parents won't first agree to convert to your religion? If your religion is so great, won't the people whom you serve eventually get curious about it? Why's it okay to coerce people into relinquishing their culture and their beliefs in favor of yours because you have the economic upper hand?

7. If prayer actually works, and God actually listens, isn't it evil to pray for the defeat of a high school football team or the results of a test? Doesn't God expect that you'll only pray for stuff that brings you closer to him?

I don't know if I'd call it evil, but it's lame. I doubt that such prayers do any good, and probably make the person look bad before God. It's like the people that say they believe because if it's true they win, if it's not, then they have nothing to lose anyway. My position is that if it's true people like that are screwed. I'm pretty sure God can see through that sort of shit.

8. How is it possible to reconcile, in your own mind, all the hatred and aggression undertaken in the name of religion with any message of any major religion? You know that it is wrong. How is it okay to commit Major Evil as long as you invoke God's name?

People that think that's ok are wrong, IMO. There's a world of difference, in my mind, between what people do in God's name and God. As I said in #5 I think it's a huge mistake to confuse the 2.

9. How can you seriously believe that a man in a red jump suit "tempts" you? Why can't you just accept responsibility for the evil you do? You're human -- no one has to tempt you. You're full of evil, selfish impulses and can only control them through the wonders of social conditioning, like the rest of us.

I think you're getting rude with this 1. If you want an open dialogue please meet me half way without insulting me.

I don't believe the wonders of social conditioning are all you seem to have them cracked up to be. I do plenty of things that society (and probably God) frowns on because I want to do them and I don't think they do any harm. And then in other cases people follow the societal norms and it leads to what, IMO, is an immoral act, like when people walk by the victim of some incredible violence without helping and that person dies because it's better to not get involved.

10. Why do you need a "promise of Heaven" to do what you know is right? Don't you have a conscience? When you do the wrong thing, don't you feel that?

I can't answer for anyone else but I try to do things in a way that I think will please God most of the time. I have some things that probably don't sit too well with him that I do, but I'm not that worried about those things because I don't think I'm going to heaven anyway. So how does this work then? The promise of heaven isn't mine and I still try to be a good person in God's eyes. I guess we're not all as you imagine us to be.

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

I've never really got why this upsets people so much. In some parts of the world you can be executed for religious transgressions and you don't even have to be a believer. If the worst thing a Christian ever did was try to tell you about what they think is a pretty good thing then I just don't see the problem. I don't know of any Christian that gets a commission on conversions. It's not like they're doing it for themselves. They're trying to help. And I've never seen any of them told someone wasn't interested and heard them continue anyway like some kind of door-to-door salesman with the hard sell. If you have, please accept my apology on behalf of Christians, that isn't right.

Are there hardline, fundamentalists out there? Sure, but they aren't the majority, just the loudest. Don't paint us all with the same brush just because the media does.

 

[Madeline]

i'm not a christian because i don't believe christ was divine.

thank you

You don't have to believe he was divine to be a Christian. Even Jesus himself made a few statements that denied divinity. The most obvious is he said he didn't know when the End Day would happen.

So I'm not sure where you're getting your info but I'd double check.

Do you just pull this stuff outta your ass CurveLight? HTF can someone who does not believe Christ was Divine call themselves a christian? If you reject the "Messiah" claim, what's left apart from some guidance on living right?

 

[Madeline]

I'm a Christian because you can do whatever you want in your life, then repent and accept Jesus on your deathbed and still get into heaven.

That's awesome.

I agree, it's a helluva inducement -- if behaving like an asshole appeals to you.

*Winks*