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John is a tricky gospel and much of it is allegory and employs metaphors as a way of sending the message. Jesus is the son of God as in a child of God as are all humans. Have you ever noticed how often Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man? That means "the human one." John 3:16 is not ascribing a special status to Jesus as eternally unique from all people. It is acknowledging that at that time Jesus had a unique existence in communicating between human existence and what lays beyond.
If someone follows Jesus' example of course they are saved. What crime did Jesus commit that prevented his salvation? If you answer "none" then someone who followed his example would not be guilty of a crime preventing salvation either. God does not want us to live as guilt laden creations wallowing in the sewers of our own tears drowning in the despair of never knowing the purpose of our existence and the value of our lives. That is the philosophy Jesus fought against.
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
You don't really answer my questions directly tho, so I'm still not sure what you really believe. It sounds like you do not believe him to be a divine being then. Do you consider him to be the only human to have lived completely without sin? If you believe what I bolded above, how does that make him any different or special from any other person then? What sets him apart that you would follow his example and not someone else's who also lived a selfless life?
And I'm curious as to where you come by your understanding of this? Just your own interpretation of what you've read or something more formal than that? I've never heard the concept that you've presented in quite the same way that you've described it before.
John is a tricky gospel and much of it is allegory and employs metaphors as a way of sending the message. Jesus is the son of God as in a child of God as are all humans. Have you ever noticed how often Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man? That means "the human one." John 3:16 is not ascribing a special status to Jesus as eternally unique from all people. It is acknowledging that at that time Jesus had a unique existence in communicating between human existence and what lays beyond.
If someone follows Jesus' example of course they are saved. What crime did Jesus commit that prevented his salvation? If you answer "none" then someone who followed his example would not be guilty of a crime preventing salvation either. God does not want us to live as guilt laden creations wallowing in the sewers of our own tears drowning in the despair of never knowing the purpose of our existence and the value of our lives. That is the philosophy Jesus fought against.
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
You don't really answer my questions directly tho, so I'm still not sure what you really believe. It sounds like you do not believe him to be a divine being then. Do you consider him to be the only human to have lived completely without sin? If you believe what I bolded above, how does that make him any different or special from any other person then? What sets him apart that you would follow his example and not someone else's who also lived a selfless life?
And I'm curious as to where you come by your understanding of this? Just your own interpretation of what you've read or something more formal than that? I've never heard the concept that you've presented in quite the same way that you've described it before.
What qualities are necessary for a divine being?
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
These are my thoughts with various influences.
You don't really answer my questions directly tho, so I'm still not sure what you really believe. It sounds like you do not believe him to be a divine being then. Do you consider him to be the only human to have lived completely without sin? If you believe what I bolded above, how does that make him any different or special from any other person then? What sets him apart that you would follow his example and not someone else's who also lived a selfless life?
And I'm curious as to where you come by your understanding of this? Just your own interpretation of what you've read or something more formal than that? I've never heard the concept that you've presented in quite the same way that you've described it before.
What qualities are necessary for a divine being?
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
These are my thoughts with various influences.
I hadn't heard that before. Where does it come from? I like it.
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
What qualities are necessary for a divine being?
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
These are my thoughts with various influences.
I hadn't heard that before. Where does it come from? I like it.
In The Lord's Prayer...
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
I've heard and even recited the Lord's prayer many times in my youth and never understood it to mean that forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others.
I hadn't heard that before. Where does it come from? I like it.
In The Lord's Prayer...
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
I've heard and even recited the Lord's prayer many times in my youth and never understood it to mean that forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others.
John is a tricky gospel and much of it is allegory and employs metaphors as a way of sending the message. Jesus is the son of God as in a child of God as are all humans. Have you ever noticed how often Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man? That means "the human one." John 3:16 is not ascribing a special status to Jesus as eternally unique from all people. It is acknowledging that at that time Jesus had a unique existence in communicating between human existence and what lays beyond.
If someone follows Jesus' example of course they are saved. What crime did Jesus commit that prevented his salvation? If you answer "none" then someone who followed his example would not be guilty of a crime preventing salvation either. God does not want us to live as guilt laden creations wallowing in the sewers of our own tears drowning in the despair of never knowing the purpose of our existence and the value of our lives. That is the philosophy Jesus fought against.
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
You don't really answer my questions directly tho, so I'm still not sure what you really believe. It sounds like you do not believe him to be a divine being then. Do you consider him to be the only human to have lived completely without sin? If you believe what I bolded above, how does that make him any different or special from any other person then? What sets him apart that you would follow his example and not someone else's who also lived a selfless life?
And I'm curious as to where you come by your understanding of this? Just your own interpretation of what you've read or something more formal than that? I've never heard the concept that you've presented in quite the same way that you've described it before.
What qualities are necessary for a divine being?
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
These are my thoughts with various influences.
In The Lord's Prayer...
I've heard and even recited the Lord's prayer many times in my youth and never understood it to mean that forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others.
I don't think one necessarily correlates to the other either. There are many places in the Bible that would indicate that forgiveness from God does not solely come because you practice forgiveness in your own life.
I've heard and even recited the Lord's prayer many times in my youth and never understood it to mean that forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others.
I don't think one necessarily correlates to the other either. There are many places in the Bible that would indicate that forgiveness from God does not solely come because you practice forgiveness in your own life.
I agree that God's forgiveness doesn not "solely come" from our ability to forgive others, but I do think that it is one thing that we must do to receive His forgiveness.
You don't really answer my questions directly tho, so I'm still not sure what you really believe. It sounds like you do not believe him to be a divine being then. Do you consider him to be the only human to have lived completely without sin? If you believe what I bolded above, how does that make him any different or special from any other person then? What sets him apart that you would follow his example and not someone else's who also lived a selfless life?
And I'm curious as to where you come by your understanding of this? Just your own interpretation of what you've read or something more formal than that? I've never heard the concept that you've presented in quite the same way that you've described it before.
What qualities are necessary for a divine being?
How do you reconcile the claim forgiveness is found in "accepting Jesus" with Jesus teaching us forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others?
These are my thoughts with various influences.
So you do not understand what it is to 'accept Jesus' then? Do you believe in baptism?
I've heard and even recited the Lord's prayer many times in my youth and never understood it to mean that forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others.
I learned that meaning later on in life.
I don't think one necessarily correlates to the other either. There are many places in the Bible that would indicate that forgiveness from God does not solely come because you practice forgiveness in your own life.
I agree that God's forgiveness doesn not "solely come" from our ability to forgive others, but I do think that it is one thing that we must do to receive His forgiveness.
I agree, but Curvelight seems to think that is the entire meaning of the message from Jesus, at least that is how I'm interpreting his comments. There are so many other things in the Bible that he is overlooking, but he's not really explained how he's reached his conclusions either. I asked about John 14:6 and how he would explain what Jesus meant, but he didn't really answer when I asked.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
I've heard and even recited the Lord's prayer many times in my youth and never understood it to mean that forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others.
I learned that meaning later on in life.
You're way ahead of me....I'm still a major fucking asshole.
He had the opportunity to get away.Exactly. According to the story Jesus chose to die rather than to continue the fight. Basically he committed suicide. His choice and his to make. But not a reason to applaud his actions, IMO.Jesus was as divine about as much as a human can be but by his own words we know he was not omniscient and he never ever said to accept him as our Saviour. If you compare John to the synoptics you can see huge leaps of theological claims easily taken out of context. Jn 14:6 is saying we have to follow Jesus' example. How do you literally "accept" Jesus? He's not a product to be accepted like a free sample cookie. The phrase "accept Jesus" is a euphemism for "accept personal responsibility." Do you see how that falls right in line with the Lord's Prayer in Jesus teaching that we pray our sins are forgiven as we forgive those who sin against us?
His often overlooked victory on the cross is he stood by his own teachings. His followers were extremely devoted and many lusted after a military revolt to restore the house of israel against the roman empire and its client kings that oppressed jews. Jesus could have given the word and avoided the torture but unlike us, he was not a hypocrite.
I guess you think people who are sentenced to death in a criminal court have also 'chosen to die' and 'comitted suicide' as well then? How do you think he could have 'continued the fight' exactly?
Exactly. According to the story Jesus chose to die rather than to continue the fight. Basically he committed suicide. His choice and his to make. But not a reason to applaud his actions, IMO.Jesus was as divine about as much as a human can be but by his own words we know he was not omniscient and he never ever said to accept him as our Saviour. If you compare John to the synoptics you can see huge leaps of theological claims easily taken out of context. Jn 14:6 is saying we have to follow Jesus' example. How do you literally "accept" Jesus? He's not a product to be accepted like a free sample cookie. The phrase "accept Jesus" is a euphemism for "accept personal responsibility." Do you see how that falls right in line with the Lord's Prayer in Jesus teaching that we pray our sins are forgiven as we forgive those who sin against us?
His often overlooked victory on the cross is he stood by his own teachings. His followers were extremely devoted and many lusted after a military revolt to restore the house of israel against the roman empire and its client kings that oppressed jews. Jesus could have given the word and avoided the torture but unlike us, he was not a hypocrite.
You're so damn dishonest I don't give a fuck what you think. You're the kind of sick fuck that would say rape is a compliment because the rapist was so attracted to his victim he risked his freedom for sex. You know you are being dishonest you just don't care so long as you can whine.
Exactly who here is being dishonest?
Exactly why should I "leave it at that"? I think you expecting me to be politically correct again. Bible stories are open to interpretation to everyone, though some Christians seem to disagree. Maybe you are not able to understand my take on the Crucifixion story because you were raised RC?Exactly. According to the story Jesus chose to die rather than to continue the fight. Basically he committed suicide. His choice and his to make. But not a reason to applaud his actions, IMO.Jesus was as divine about as much as a human can be but by his own words we know he was not omniscient and he never ever said to accept him as our Saviour. If you compare John to the synoptics you can see huge leaps of theological claims easily taken out of context. Jn 14:6 is saying we have to follow Jesus' example. How do you literally "accept" Jesus? He's not a product to be accepted like a free sample cookie. The phrase "accept Jesus" is a euphemism for "accept personal responsibility." Do you see how that falls right in line with the Lord's Prayer in Jesus teaching that we pray our sins are forgiven as we forgive those who sin against us?
His often overlooked victory on the cross is he stood by his own teachings. His followers were extremely devoted and many lusted after a military revolt to restore the house of israel against the roman empire and its client kings that oppressed jews. Jesus could have given the word and avoided the torture but unlike us, he was not a hypocrite.
Anguille--
Is it possible for you to acknowledge there are teachings about the Crucifixation that you don't understand and just leave it at that? I'm not a Christian either. I don't interpret Jesus dying on the cross as suicide. I have my own strange way of coming to terms with the Crucifixion from a Buddhist perspective.
In a Buddhist way, I understand the Crucifixion as a profound purification practice offered by Jesus for the sins of all people. Jesus endured the suffering of the Crucifixion and opened his heart thinking only of others. In that, he gives a worthy example to follow. Now in Buddhist teachings no one else can purify our karma but ourselves. We don't have a savior/redeemer. We have to 'take up the cross' ourselves. That's why there are so many purification practices in Buddhism. While we all have Buddha nature, it is obscured and we have to clear away the dross of ignorance from ourselves.
For some of us teachings on suffering open our hearts. At least, it worked that way for me in Buddhism.
It's possible to skip the whole Crucifixion aspect entirely and concentrate on another aspect of Jesus' life. There is great beauty in the Sermon on the Mount and on the two great commandments--to love God with ones whole heart and to love ones neighbor as oneself.
Prostestants don't emphasize the Crucifixion, they look at other parts of Jesus life.
So Jesus was a sin-eater. That's a very pagan concept.him giving his life on the cross was the ultimate example of love by taking on mankind's sins.
From the way I know it anyway.
Exactly. According to the story Jesus chose to die rather than to continue the fight. Basically he committed suicide. His choice and his to make. But not a reason to applaud his actions, IMO.
You're so damn dishonest I don't give a fuck what you think. You're the kind of sick fuck that would say rape is a compliment because the rapist was so attracted to his victim he risked his freedom for sex. You know you are being dishonest you just don't care so long as you can whine.
It sounds a bit like the concept of karma.I hadn't heard that before. Where does it come from? I like it.
In The Lord's Prayer...
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
I've heard and even recited the Lord's prayer many times in my youth and never understood it to mean that forgiveness from God is found in our forgiveness of others.
I can see that you don't give a fuck what I say.
You're so damn dishonest I don't give a fuck what you think. You're the kind of sick fuck that would say rape is a compliment because the rapist was so attracted to his victim he risked his freedom for sex. You know you are being dishonest you just don't care so long as you can whine.
You fucking trolling bitch. What the hell was so ambiguous when I said I don't give a fuck what you think? I wasn't joking.
