Why I Am Not A Christian

[Madeline]

That might be a fair criticism, CurveLight -- but anger at christians is obviously not directed at me. What would you like me to do? Take anyone who insults someone else on this thread to the woodshed? I think you've been out of line, and so have others. Maybe I have as well...I did say Newby claimed all non-christians were going to hell and that was an error.

Quite apart from trying to play the "USMB Miss Manners", a role that obviously does not suit me, I rather prefer to engage in the conversation. At the moment, I am hoping for a reply to this question:

Why's it necessary for any christian to form a belief about the worthiness of anyone else's beliefs? I don't have an opinion about yours, not if you invested time and sincere effort in forming it. So why's there so much effort made by christians on judging others, rather than on focusing on their own personal spiritual growth?

 

[blu]

I am not a christian because I am capable of critical thought

 

[Madeline]

Are you insinuating that no christian is equally capable, blu? Or that critical thought is the only reasonable baiss for forming spiritual beliefs?

Seems to me there's a bit too much "my way is the best" self-congratulatory bullshit going on here. I find it had to believe everyone is so at peace with their own beliefs they have all this time left to ponder and judge the beliefs of everyone else.

 

[blu]

Are you insinuating that no christian is equally capable, blu? Or that critical thought is the only reasonable baiss for sorming spiritual beliefs?

Seems to me there's a bit too much "my way is the best" self-congratulatory bullshit going on here. I find it had to believe everyone is so at peace with their own beliefs they have all this time left to ponder and judge the beliefs of everyone else.

no it was actually just a post to encite people. I figured newby would have went crazy on me by now. I know plenty of critical thinking christians and try not to paint with a broad brush

 

[Frank]

So Jesus was a sin-eater. That's a very pagan concept.

And it was so civilized today.

Thanks for the neg rep, Frank. So loving and Christian of you.

If you think Christ's message was new and original you have vast gaps of knowledge.

Actually, I prefer to think of what I did as a rather calm and gentlemanly way of telling you that I personally did not appreciate what had been some thoughtful and respectful question and answering earlier in the day turn into yet another sarcastic display filled with ridicule.

Example - never did I say it was "new or original" and then you lop on the "vast gaps of knowledge" comment to bait me. Not this time.

 

[Madeline]

What seems so odd to me is that a discussion of our fundamental beliefs about the human experience is verging into terrible anger so much. In my experience, most anger is about fear. The only fear I can imagine behind all this is the fear that we are wrong, that we believe in error. I dunno why Frank felt he needed to neg anyone on this thread, or why blu is mad at anyone else. I've been impatient with CurveLight for his insults and for trying to derail the convo, but angry? No, I can't say I've really been angry at him. It seems pretty unlikely I'll ever be angry at anyone on USMB merely for what they write -- and if ever I do, I'll stop reading this board awhile, because that is 'net stress. It's a disproportionate response. Anger should be about a real life threat or injury -- not anonymous words on a message board.

I've had doubts myself. I've tried a few times in my adulthood to reconnect with the RCC so I could bathe in the rituals and beliefs and enjoy that wonderful feeling of reconciliation with one's traditions. I just could never get it to work; I'd find myself at Mass, listening to some hypocritical homily and feeling the old disgust...or worse, wondering why the experience was meaningless to me when it apparently had meaning for others.

Ultimately I have always concluded the same: I am meant to puzzle this out on my own. There is no playbook. I cannot wholesale import a belief system and expect it to fit comfortably. Instead, I have to build one based upon reflection and study and experience.

It seems to me that many christians here on this thread have done almost the same thing, except that they have a bias in favor of resolving any open question in a way that is consistent with their preference for christianity. I don't knock it, but I will say this.

For thirteen years, I tried to make a broken marriage work by any means EXCEPT divorce. That was an option I would not consider, as I had a child. One day, the scales fell from my eyes and I realized that ONLY divorce would solve our problems. When you begin a quest for fundamental answers by blinding yourself to some possibilities, you may never get close to real truth.

 

[Anguille]

And it was so civilized today.

Thanks for the neg rep, Frank. So loving and Christian of you.

If you think Christ's message was new and original you have vast gaps of knowledge.

Actually, I prefer to think of what I did as a rather calm and gentlemanly way of telling you that I personally did not appreciate what had been some thoughtful and respectful question and answering earlier in the day turn into yet another sarcastic display filled with ridicule.

Example - never did I say it was "new or original" and then you lop on the "vast gaps of knowledge" comment to bait me. Not this time.

Neg rep is petty. Nothing gentlemanly about it. I think you just don't like the fact that that I pointed out that sin-eating was not invented by Christians.

 

[Anguille]

When you begin a quest for fundamental answers by blinding yourself to some possibilities, you may never get close to real truth.

 

[Frank]

Thanks for the neg rep, Frank. So loving and Christian of you.

If you think Christ's message was new and original you have vast gaps of knowledge.

Actually, I prefer to think of what I did as a rather calm and gentlemanly way of telling you that I personally did not appreciate what had been some thoughtful and respectful question and answering earlier in the day turn into yet another sarcastic display filled with ridicule.

Example - never did I say it was "new or original" and then you lop on the "vast gaps of knowledge" comment to bait me. Not this time.

Neg rep is petty. Nothing gentlemanly about it. I think you just don't like the fact that that I pointed out that sin-eating was not invented by Christians.

Petty. It's a message board. It beats me flying off the handle, so yes, it is gentlemanly.

 

[Anguille]

Actually, I prefer to think of what I did as a rather calm and gentlemanly way of telling you that I personally did not appreciate what had been some thoughtful and respectful question and answering earlier in the day turn into yet another sarcastic display filled with ridicule.

Example - never did I say it was "new or original" and then you lop on the "vast gaps of knowledge" comment to bait me. Not this time.

Neg rep is petty. Nothing gentlemanly about it. I think you just don't like the fact that that I pointed out that sin-eating was not invented by Christians.

Petty. It's a message board. It beats me flying off the handle, so yes, it is gentlemanly.

If it was a way to avoid beating your kids or somebody then I'll gladly take it. I have yet to reach the level of anger and resentment a few of you Christians have reached in this thread. I hope I never do. I'd certainly leave the thread and take some time for reflection if I did.

You guys are not setting a good example of how being a Christian could improve a person's life or make them a better person. In the OP, Madeleine mentions being mistreated by members of the RC clergy. Sounds like you might have the same anger problems they did.

 

[Madeline]

I don't happen to see repping -- neg or pos -- as especially important. I don't give a flying fuck what my rep numbers are and likely never will. It is not my goal to overcome anyone else's POV with mere "popularity"; either they find what I have to say persuasive or they don't. Nonetheless, most neg reps I have received have been insulting and I always wonder -- why not merely post this opposing POV on the thread rather than sneak around and whisper to me that we disagree?

What I am asking is this -- for those of you who've been angry enough to insult others on this thread, why? Are you inflamed at the idea that not everyone believes as you do? Do you feel that your beliefs were disrespected? Do you want or need or feel entitled to respect for your beliefs because they are mainstream? I'm not a christian. I don't value christian symbols. Seems easy enough to grasp -- why's it so offensive?

In case no one has noticed, I don't think a single other person on USMB believes as I do -- that God exists but there is no afterlife. I don't feel any special need to persuade anyone else to join me in my beliefs, but I enjoy discussing with others who do not share them the various ways we see things.

 

[Newby]

CurveLight, if you are done posting to this thread, that's fine (though I don't know why you'd need to announce it). I think everyone else can decide for themselves if the convo still has value.

I have a question for Newby: there does seem to be some anger in what you've written. I won't say it hasn't been provoked, but I wonder -- why on a thread about spirituality are so many people so angry? As for being open minded and "learning what the bible says", isn't that a sub rosa way of insinuating only christians "have it right"? I don't see the mutual respect from you I had hoped to. It seems to me that almost all the christians who have replied (and no, Newby, I don't expect you to speak for anyone else) strongly believe that the beliefs of non-christians are defective and they will suffer for holding them. Is that how you feel? Can you understand why others would be put off by such a belief? I'm unsure why it is essential to your belief system that you form opinions about what will happen to me and others like me.....I have all I can do to manage the ethos of my own life. I don't understand how you can embrace a belief that this is not just right for you, but for everyone else -- and they'll suffer if they don't share your belief.

Is it really so hard to understand why someone might examine christianity in detail and still reject it? For some people, like me, the concepts and rules and symbols just do not resonate -- is that a basis on which to condemn anyone?

The minute that you stop forming opinions about me and my belief systems, then maybe you can talk. Pot meet kettle.

 

[Newby]

Exactly, that's his viewpoint. You have yours, he has his, I see no need to belittle what he believes or how he feels. He opinion isn't affecting your life in any way, just like yours isn't affecting his. See how simple it is? Why people are so thin skinned and defensive that they have to hurl insults is what is puzzling.

So why do you continue to insult me? To call me a liar when I express my opinions and to encourage ScurvyDelight's abuse of me and others? Are only those whose opinions you approve of allowed respect? You are always on the defensive, Newby. I think your faith must be very fragile, thus your need to play victim.

CurveLight, if you are done posting to this thread, that's fine (though I don't know why you'd need to announce it). I think everyone else can decide for themselves if the convo still has value.

I have a question for Newby: there does seem to be some anger in what you've written. I won't say it hasn't been provoked, but I wonder -- why on a thread about spirituality are so many people so angry? As for being open minded and "learning what the bible says", isn't that a sub rosa way of insinuating only christians "have it right"? I don't see the mutual respect from you I had hoped to. It seems to me that almost all the christians who have replied (and no, Newby, I don't expect you to speak for anyone else) strongly believe that the beliefs of non-christians are defective and they will suffer for holding them. Is that how you feel? Can you understand why others would be put off by such a belief? I'm unsure why it is essential to your belief system that you form opinions about what will happen to me and others like me.....I have all I can do to manage the ethos of my own life. I don't understand how you can embrace a belief that this is not just right for you, but for everyone else -- and they'll suffer if they don't share your belief.

Is it really so hard to understand why someone might examine christianity in detail and still reject it? For some people, like me, the concepts and rules and symbols just do not resonate -- is that a basis on which to condemn anyone?

You're being a hypocrite and dishonest. You don't say a fucking word when Christianity is bashed. I can't speak for anyone else but my anger is not from any position. It's from the fact people make claims to try and justify their bashing but ignore relevent facts. It also comes from deception being practiced by people like you. Don't try to pretend you're rolling on some high ground. You've seen messed up shit posted in this thread and as long as it was directed in line with your agenda you didn't say shit.

Well said. They're allowed to sling shit all they want, but then turn judgemental when it's slung back, questioning why we're being judgemental. They should look in the mirror.

 

[Newby]

Neg rep is petty. Nothing gentlemanly about it. I think you just don't like the fact that that I pointed out that sin-eating was not invented by Christians.

Petty. It's a message board. It beats me flying off the handle, so yes, it is gentlemanly.

If it was a way to avoid beating your kids or somebody then I'll gladly take it. I have yet to reach the level of anger and resentment a few of you Christians have reached in this thread. I hope I never do. I'd certainly leave the thread and take some time for reflection if I did.

You guys are not setting a good example of how being a Christian could improve a person's life or make them a better person. In the OP, Madeleine mentions being mistreated by members of the RC clergy. Sounds like you might have the same anger problems they did.

What's sad is that no one is angry, except maybe Curve. You're not worthy of my anger, never will be. You have more my sympathies than anything else. You have a lot of anger and hatred, unwarrented, towards anything christian.

 

[nraforlife]

.................1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? .............

because combat against your sort builds the Faith & Character of the Elect for the Long Haul aka Eternity. Your short and ultimately futile existence (and all like you) will be imvisible in the Bright LIght of Eternity.

 

[Madeline]

Newby wrote:

The minute that you stop forming opinions about me and my belief systems, then maybe you can talk. Pot meet kettle.

Fair enough. In your view, what lies beyond death for non-christians?

 

[Madeline]

.................1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? .............

because combat against your sort builds the Faith & Character of the Elect for the Long Haul aka Eternity. Your short and ultimately futile existence (and all like you) will be imvisible in the Bright LIght of Eternity.

I'm not following you, nraforlife. The presence of Evil in the world "builds Faith"? How? Wouldn't it be a little easier to believe in God if you looked around and saw more Justice?

BTW, I don't see you and I as enemies. Why do you?

 

[Cecilie1200]

.................1. If God is Omnipotent, then why is there evil in the world? .............

because combat against your sort builds the Faith & Character of the Elect for the Long Haul aka Eternity. Your short and ultimately futile existence (and all like you) will be imvisible in the Bright LIght of Eternity.

I'm not following you, nraforlife. The presence of Evil in the world "builds Faith"? How? Wouldn't it be a little easier to believe in God if you looked around and saw more Justice?

BTW, I don't see you and I as enemies. Why do you?

Might've had something to do with the nasty, combative, hostile tone of your OP.

I'm just saying . . .

 

[SmarterThanHick]

because combat against your sort builds the Faith & Character of the Elect for the Long Haul aka Eternity. Your short and ultimately futile existence (and all like you) will be imvisible in the Bright LIght of Eternity.

That is sick reasoning. It's like saying getting assaulted or living in filth as a child helps build character and that it's a good thing. No.

You guys are not setting a good example of how being a Christian could improve a person's life or make them a better person. In the OP, Madeleine mentions being mistreated by members of the RC clergy. Sounds like you might have the same anger problems they did.

Yeah it's kind of sad that the people representing Christianity in this thread are raving lunatics and clearly not following the teachings of their religion. Don't see them as representative.

You either accept the price he so graciously paid for us or not.

Someone else questioned this as well. Graciously? I must have missed which part of being unwillingly arrested and tortured to death is gracious. Please clarify.

I teach anger management. What other bright observations do you have today?

False. Getting out your anger by lecture/yelling at your pet guinea pigs is not teaching anger management. Why are you so stoopid and dishonest?

No, because when push comes to shove it is Jesus in us that enables us to walk his path. And not only that, but we must be redeemed by his blood.

And "by his blood" you're referring to the wine you believe is magically transformed into blood because some dude in a white cape waves his hand over it while you're on your knees? Or those little wafers are part of his body? Do you even realize the cannibalistic undertones of these ceremonies? Do you even realize the Jesus wafers are made in a packing plant next to the Jersey shore?

 

[Madeline]

Cecille wrote:

Might've had something to do with the nasty, combative, hostile tone of your OP.

I'm just saying . . .

I am sorry you were offended, Cecille. I tried to be honest but it wasn't written to annoy christians. How would you like for me to phrase "I find some of this just plain ridiculous"?