Why I Am Not A Christian

[Anguille]

ScurvyDelight knows how to please his audience.

A few years ago I had a conversation about this subject with a devout Catholic friend of mine. I told him how I was a house guest once a home where the bedroom I slept in had a crucifix hanging over the bed and that it creeped me out so much that after the first night I took it down and put it in the nightstand drawer. He said that he, himself, preferred to sleep under an image of the living god so he had a small statue of Jesus holding a flower or a bible or something hanging on the wall over his bed.

 

[Madeline]

They used to make glow-in-the-dark reliefs of the Sacred Heart. If that isn't enough to give most kidlets nightmares, nothing is. Floating, disembodied, bleeding, tortured heart muscle -- so quaint, huh?

 

[Anguille]

NOTsmarterthanhick, I didn't say people who go to the dentist are masochistic you dumb fuckwad. I said "by your logic" they are masochistic. So you just had a little strawman party and are too fucking dumb to realize it.

You also tried to weasel out of your contradiction with Anguish but I'm not surprised. That dishonest bitch claimed he "willingly embraced" the torture and we know from the fact he prayed and begged to avoid it proves that claim wrong. Then....lol....your stoopid ass actually asked why Jesus would pray at all? Rotfl! You"re way up to speed!

First of all, there is no "fact" that he did anything. It's just an unproven story.
Second of all, praying and begging instead of taking action to escape show him to to be hypocritical in his supposed desire not to be crucified.

Third, Jesus need not even be masochist for the story and all other martyred saint stories to have masochistic overtones when they are held up for veneration.

By the way, did I mention that Jesus was a passive-aggressive as well?

 

[Anguille]

They used to make glow-in-the-dark reliefs of the Sacred Heart. If that isn't enough to give most kidlets nightmares, nothing is. Floating, disembodied, bleeding, tortured heart muscle -- so quaint, huh?

Too bizarre!

 

[SmarterThanHick]

NOTsmarterthanhick, I didn't say people who go to the dentist are masochistic you dumb fuckwad. I said "by your logic" they are masochistic. So you just had a little strawman party and are too fucking dumb to realize it.

Except by my logic, as I just pointed out, it's the refusal of anesthetic, not the going to the dentist itself, which is masochistic. So you're wrong AND ironic at the same time with that strawman comment! Hilarious!

You also tried to weasel out of your contradiction with Anguish but I'm not surprised. That dishonest bitch claimed he "willingly embraced" the torture and we know from the fact he prayed and begged to avoid it proves that claim wrong.

Yet again you seem incapable of differentiating time points. Allow me to explain. First, one thing happens. Then, later on, at a different point in time, a second thing happens. Note that the two things do not occur at the same time. Therefore, they should not be compared and contrasted as if they are occurring at the same time.

Combined with the fact that masochistic tendencies can occur at different times, and are inherent to the situation, not the person or time, it can be easily shown that someone can wish to avoid pain at one point in time, then later wish to NOT avoid pain. Notice, again, how these are different points in time, and therefore elicit their own individual evaluations of whether they exhibit masochistic tendencies.

So to repeat: when begging to avoid the pain, instead of just, you know, fleeing, no masochistic tendencies were exhibited. You seem to understand this simple concept up until this point, but lose it thereafter. After this point, when he refused an opportunity to avoid pain, he did exhibit masochistic tendencies. This is the very meaning of the word.

Let me know if you're still having trouble figuring out how time works.

Third, Jesus need not even be masochist for the story and all other martyred saint stories to have masochistic overtones when they are held up for veneration.

This is also true, and yet another reason why the entire story has masochistic overtones. CurveLight has said nothing to refute this. Celebrating the tortured death of someone is usually seen as sick and psychopathic in this society.

 

[CurveLight]

You act like you think you are some sort of caped crusader defending Christians. You are the one who is a bigot. You assume everyone who has a problem accepting all tenants of a religion must hate all those who follow that religion.

I think this is the real issue here. The original claim of masochistic overtones can be perceived as having a negative connotation. While a completely valid interpretation of the events and the religion's emphatic rejoicing of those events, he only perceives the claim as somehow bashing the entire religion. That's not the case, but he feels the need to get all cute and huffy anyway, as if he is somehow defending his honor, despite the facts actually supporting your claim.

As I've acknowledged and you've repeatedly ignored, "pain" and "responsibility" are not congruent. Nor have you showed how or why they are linked in any way. Masochism deals with knowingly pain and bringing pain upon oneself, actively or passively. He knew his actions were severely upsetting people, which is actively bringing pain upon himself. He refused anesthetic, which is passively bringing pain upon himself. And while you can continue to argue the case of "accepting responsibility" all you want, it still has nothing to do with pain.

If he was masochistic he would not have cried and begged for a way to avoid the torture.

You still demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the word masochism. Saying "no, stop!" is part of it. Look up the term "safeword" if you need more convincing. Why do you think so many Christians believe he willingly did this? Oh I almost forgot: you pick and choose which parts you like to believe.

So again, masochistic overtones have nothing to do with taking responsibility. Did he or did he not actively or passively bring pain upon himself? Yes or no?

Not all masochistic sessions involve saying "stop" you dumbfuck. The safe word can be used in myriad scenarios but thanks for demonstrating you really don't know what you are talking about.

By your logic everyone who marched for Civil Rights with Dr King were masochists because they knew marching would bring severe consequences. So basically in your view anyone who stands up against oppressive forces with non-violence means they are also masochistic. That is your lack of comprehension.

Many Christian denominations have evolved into different levels of masochism but it has nothing to do with what Jesus actually did. It has to do with exploiting human guilt to make people feel bad about about being human. That is not the message Jesus brought.

How do you reconcile Anguish's claim that Jesus "willingly embraced" the torture with your own claim he went unwillingly?

I'm sorry, I couldn't help notice that you once again blatantly ignored the question: Did he or did he not actively or passively bring pain upon himself? Yes or no? I'll give you a hint as to why you won't answer a simple yes or no question: because you know the answer proves you wrong.

Do you really want to compare Jesus's crucifixion, a horrible tortured death, to marching for civil rights, where the worst case scenario for the large majority of supporters was a little time in the local jailhouse? Prolonged torture equals short imprisonment in your mind?

Once again you are linking a term dealing with pain to things like justice, responsibility, equality. They have nothing to do with one another. So once again: Did he or did he not knowingly bring pain upon himself either actively or passively? Yes or no?

You really are fucking ignorant. You think the worst case scenario for the majority of Civil Rights' protesters was time in a local jail? Since you obviously don't know US history very well I'm not surprised you don't know basics of 1st century Judea.


You're using logic that is exactly the same logic sick fucks use to blame rape victims. Think about it einstein.

All this debate is predicated on a belief that someone named Jesus really lived and had a life resembling what is (somewhat contradictorially) described in the Bible. THEN we are supposed to "have faith" (read "suspend disbelief") and take things a step further and accept that Jesus was God. And from this confusing, contradictory, irrational jumping off point we are supposed to debate what "historical facts" the Bible contains and what they mean? I feel as if I'm listening to you to debate the hidden meaning of the "Tale of Rumpelstilskin" (which by the way makes more sense than the Bible).

PassSSSSsssssSSSSssssssss.

You're making assumptions and really stoopid claims. Nobody who takes biblical studies seriously doubts Jesus existed. If you'd ever done biblical studies you would know this and not continue with foolish statements. Then again....this is USMB so who will notice?

 

[CurveLight]

NOTsmarterthanhick, I didn't say people who go to the dentist are masochistic you dumb fuckwad. I said "by your logic" they are masochistic. So you just had a little strawman party and are too fucking dumb to realize it.

Except by my logic, as I just pointed out, it's the refusal of anesthetic, not the going to the dentist itself, which is masochistic. So you're wrong AND ironic at the same time with that strawman comment! Hilarious!

You also tried to weasel out of your contradiction with Anguish but I'm not surprised. That dishonest bitch claimed he "willingly embraced" the torture and we know from the fact he prayed and begged to avoid it proves that claim wrong.

Yet again you seem incapable of differentiating time points. Allow me to explain. First, one thing happens. Then, later on, at a different point in time, a second thing happens. Note that the two things do not occur at the same time. Therefore, they should not be compared and contrasted as if they are occurring at the same time.

Combined with the fact that masochistic tendencies can occur at different times, and are inherent to the situation, not the person or time, it can be easily shown that someone can wish to avoid pain at one point in time, then later wish to NOT avoid pain. Notice, again, how these are different points in time, and therefore elicit their own individual evaluations of whether they exhibit masochistic tendencies.

So to repeat: when begging to avoid the pain, instead of just, you know, fleeing, no masochistic tendencies were exhibited. You seem to understand this simple concept up until this point, but lose it thereafter. After this point, when he refused an opportunity to avoid pain, he did exhibit masochistic tendencies. This is the very meaning of the word.

Let me know if you're still having trouble figuring out how time works.

So you're saying Jesus was masochistic because he refused wine.........it's an endless circle because you refuse to stop confusing accepting responsibility for masochism.

Was Dr. King a masochist? He would get beat up on the street for his activism yet he kept on with his fight against social injustices. Simple yes or no question.

 

[Anguille]

I saw this in anther thread and thought it might have relevance in this one.

Curvedlight seeks to deceive and to mislead. Knowingly or otherwise, curvedlight is an agent of Lucifer, who seeks to corrupt the Word and mislead men so they will not accept jesus and the Word of God.

Jesus warned of people like you.

 

[Anguille]

You're making assumptions and really stoopid claims. Nobody who takes biblical studies seriously doubts Jesus existed. If you'd ever done biblical studies you would know this and not continue with foolish statements. Then again....this is USMB so who will notice?

Dream on.

 

[CurveLight]

Third, Jesus need not even be masochist for the story and all other martyred saint stories to have masochistic overtones when they are held up for veneration.

This is also true, and yet another reason why the entire story has masochistic overtones. CurveLight has said nothing to refute this. Celebrating the tortured death of someone is usually seen as sick and psychopathic in this society.

Anguish claimed Jesus himself was masochistic and not simply the overall story. But let's not let goal post moving interrupt your ingorance bash.

Secondly, it is not true the torture and murder of Jesus is celebrated. If anything, it is regarded with deep sorrow, but strawmen are what keep you whiners going so don't stop now.

 

[rikules]

NOTsmarterthanhick, I didn't say people who go to the dentist are masochistic you dumb fuckwad. I said "by your logic" they are masochistic. So you just had a little strawman party and are too fucking dumb to realize it.

Except by my logic, as I just pointed out, it's the refusal of anesthetic, not the going to the dentist itself, which is masochistic. So you're wrong AND ironic at the same time with that strawman comment! Hilarious!

You also tried to weasel out of your contradiction with Anguish but I'm not surprised. That dishonest bitch claimed he "willingly embraced" the torture and we know from the fact he prayed and begged to avoid it proves that claim wrong.

Yet again you seem incapable of differentiating time points. Allow me to explain. First, one thing happens. Then, later on, at a different point in time, a second thing happens. Note that the two things do not occur at the same time. Therefore, they should not be compared and contrasted as if they are occurring at the same time.

Combined with the fact that masochistic tendencies can occur at different times, and are inherent to the situation, not the person or time, it can be easily shown that someone can wish to avoid pain at one point in time, then later wish to NOT avoid pain. Notice, again, how these are different points in time, and therefore elicit their own individual evaluations of whether they exhibit masochistic tendencies.

So to repeat: when begging to avoid the pain, instead of just, you know, fleeing, no masochistic tendencies were exhibited. You seem to understand this simple concept up until this point, but lose it thereafter. After this point, when he refused an opportunity to avoid pain, he did exhibit masochistic tendencies. This is the very meaning of the word.

Let me know if you're still having trouble figuring out how time works.

So you're saying Jesus was masochistic because he refused wine.........it's an endless circle because you refuse to stop confusing accepting responsibility for masochism.

Was Dr. King a masochist? He would get beat up on the street for his activism yet he kept on with his fight against social injustices. Simple yes or no question.

I think anyne who tries to debate with a vulgar, foulmouthed piece of donkey doo like curvelight is a masochist

 

[THE LIGHT]

The Light, do you seriously revise scientific facts with religious dogma? Why?

Could you please point out what scientific facts that I have revised?

What about your claim that scientists cannot explain what holds an atom together, but you (presumably your faith) can?

What part of that do you have a problem with?

 

[THE LIGHT]

So, in essence what I get from some of the christians on this thread is: fuck off and die. And that just leads me back to my earlier question: why are the christians (some) so angry at the non-christians?

I know this will sound odd, but at times you guys seem a bit envious to me.

I think sometimes people let their emotions get in the way which shouldn't be the case.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Sez you.

Yes, sez me, and G-d, and a whole bunch of other people that have seen the light. But that isn't what matters. What matters is that you find out your eternal destination on your own. All I am saying is that you search it out and you do it soon; because it IS that important. Eternity is a really long time, so I would venture to say that it is something worth researching with an open heart.

We know that time is the 4th dimension in which we live, but time as we know it is running out. The creator of the universe and time itself is fulfilling what he said he would according to His Word. All of our lives are as a vapor just as he says in James 4:14. Death is something that we are all certain of, but are you certain of where you are going when you die? Time is scientifically not constant but varies and is just something our mortal flesh is stuck in. We also know that everything before our eyes is made up of things which are not seen just as the Bible says in Hebrews 11:3. Scientists cannot tell you what holds an atom together but I can.

I know you mean well but you make some false assumptions that know it alls often do. I've probably done more "soul searching" than you have (even though I don't have a soul ) and my mind might just be more open than yours. The fact trhat you claim to know better than scientists what holds an atom together and that you call yourself The Light leads me to suspect you might have delusions of grandeur. Or be a con. Get back to me when you have something more substantial to peddle than fairy tales.

Somehow the statements in bold don't add up. Which one is it? Do I mean well or am I a con?

If your version of science wasn't such a "religion" then you would be full of joy to find out that someone knew something further about science, but unfortunately, such is not the case.

Let me know when you come up with a better explanation.

 

[THE LIGHT]

I didn't say gracefully either, I said graciously. You may want to upgrade to fifth grade reading levels before claiming someone is putting words in your mouth.

Well, you were the one that seemed confused so I was trying to help you sort things out and in doing so I was going through the list of possabilities.

As CurveLight and I established earlier in this thread, he was unwillingly arrested. CurveLight can even point out the biblical reference of when he prayed to escape. What did you think happened? He just walked into the Roman jailhouse and turned himself in? What we also established was that he did not take a drug that could have lessened the pain, which is what lead to the discussion on masochistic overtones.

I'm glad you two are woking things out.

But why do you think he willingly gave up his life, when it's clear to everyone else he was hunted down, unwillingly arrested, and then tortured to death?

Because he said so.

Matthew 26:53 - "Do you not think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more that twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

John 10:18 - "No man takes it (his life) from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father".

 

[LuckyDan]

Will you fartsniffs please give it up? Christ kicks all your butts. Quick and clean.

 

[CurveLight]

I think anyne who tries to debate with a vulgar, foulmouthed piece of donkey doo like curvelight is a masochist

Don't look now.....but nobody gives a fuck about who you think people should debate with. Now take your thin skinned got-no-game whiny ass back the to corner.

 

[JoLouis]

FYI, Jesus was crucified for being gay.

 

[Madeline]

Could you please point out what scientific facts that I have revised?

What about your claim that scientists cannot explain what holds an atom together, but you (presumably your faith) can?

What part of that do you have a problem with?

The part where science courses in public schools are hijacked by "creationists", where scientific discoveries are frustrated by opposition to stem cell research, where safer abortificants are withheld from the US public for "religious reasons", etc.

In short, I have a problem with anyone who elevates his own irrationality and frustrates science.

 

[Madeline]

So, in essence what I get from some of the christians on this thread is: fuck off and die. And that just leads me back to my earlier question: why are the christians (some) so angry at the non-christians?

I know this will sound odd, but at times you guys seem a bit envious to me.

I think sometimes people let their emotions get in the way which shouldn't be the case.

I suspect that some christians have never looked long and hard at their faith; that they have merely followed the path laid down for them by others (most likely parents) and resent those of us who walked away after full immersion. What seems to escape notice is that the search we undertook was not without price, and that no one has bolted the door on their own intelligence and curiosity but them.

Doubtless after a quest, some would return to the faith of their childhood, even if only for "emotional" reasons. I happen to think, though, that there'd be more acceptance of those who do not as well as contentment among those who do, if there was a bit less pre-programmed, knee-jerk adherence to any system of belief.