Why I Am Not A Christian

[Sky Dancer]

Of course, the Catholic church wants a lot more little Catholics out there, so their 'policies' are going to reflect that. Again, this is Catholic doctrine, not christian. So this is not an example of christian anti-sexuality as far as I am concerned. I attend service fairly regularly and I can honestly say that I've never heard any teachings having anything to do with sex one way or the other where I go, nor have I seen any policies either.

Are Catholics Christian or not? This is as clear an example of anti-sexuality (save perhaps the Taliban) that I've ever seen.

How many more examples of anti-sexuality do you need?

Okay, Sky, you win. We're all anti-sexual. Happy now?

This is ridiculous, believe whatever you want to believe, it matters not to me.

I'm not saying that all Christians are anti-sexual. I am saying that, like it or not, Catholics are Christians and that Catholic doctrine as I have shown is clearly anti-sexual. Catholics are the largest Christian denomination in the world. Here is another source:

Matthew chapter 5 (NLT)

27 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye - even if it is your good eye - causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your hand - even if it is your stronger hand - causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

31 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce.' 32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."


http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section2/transcript/marriage1.htm

 

[Newby]

Are Catholics Christian or not? This is as clear an example of anti-sexuality (save perhaps the Taliban) that I've ever seen.

How many more examples of anti-sexuality do you need?

Okay, Sky, you win. We're all anti-sexual. Happy now?

This is ridiculous, believe whatever you want to believe, it matters not to me.

I'm not saying that all Christians are anti-sexual. I am saying that Catholics are Christians and they are anti-sexual.

I conceded, we're anti-sexual and anti-female. Now we can all go on with our lives.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Okay, Sky, you win. We're all anti-sexual. Happy now?

This is ridiculous, believe whatever you want to believe, it matters not to me.

I'm not saying that all Christians are anti-sexual. I am saying that Catholics are Christians and they are anti-sexual.

I conceded, we're anti-sexual and anti-female. Now we can all go on with our lives.

Why concede something you don't believe and I am clearly not even saying. I never stated that all Christians are anti-sexual and anti-female. Clearly, some are, and in that Madeline is correct in her claim. Catholic doctine is anti-sexual and Catholics are the largest Christian denomination in the world.

 

[Newby]

I'm not saying that all Christians are anti-sexual. I am saying that Catholics are Christians and they are anti-sexual.

I conceded, we're anti-sexual and anti-female. Now we can all go on with our lives.

Why concede something you don't believe and I am clearly not even saying. Show me some tolerant teachings of Christianity about sexuality.

No thank you. My patience is about worn out on this topic at the moment.

Take care Sky.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I conceded, we're anti-sexual and anti-female. Now we can all go on with our lives.

Why concede something you don't believe and I am clearly not even saying. Show me some tolerant teachings of Christianity about sexuality.

No thank you. My patience is about worn out on this topic at the moment.

Take care Sky.

I support you in replenishing your patience. Take care Newby.

 

[CurveLight]

Well, let's see where we are. I may or may not be a liar, and not all christians are Catholics. If I recall correctly, the offer to discuss any other christian sect was declined on the grounds that I have never joined one. (Which is actually not the case. I have belonged to a Methodist church and to a Lutheran one.....pretty much the same reactions.)

So we cannot discuss prevailing christian attitudes in any context? Or would someone please choose a sect we can discuss, so we can get on with debating whether modern day American mainstream christianity is anti-female and anti-sexual?

BTW, would anyone care to address the faith's silence on Jesus' teaching that wealth is almost always a spiritual death?

Hossy hell........I unsubscribed after my last post because Maddy was bitching about what could or couldn't be discussed after I offered a reasonable solution that was declined.

I look at the thread again and the first damn thing I see is maddy whining about the same damn shit. That is just too funny!

 

[Madeline]

CurveLight, this is a message board. I am not going to follow you to another thread under an agreement to ignore what anyone besides the two of us writes. To do so seems elitist and exhibitionistic to me. Why on earth would you and I need a message board to carry on a private conversation?

Explain to me how anyone can claim mainstream American christianity is not both anti-sexual and anti-female when:

1. So many try to interfere in government to advance religious views.

2. They oppose gay marriage, the repeal of DADT, and gay rights in general.

3. They oppose abortion -- but not content with having chosen for themselves, they seek by any means possible to foreclose that option for all American women.

4. They lobby the FDA to keep safer abortificants out of the hands of American women.

5. They oppose teaching sex ed in schools.

Shall I go on? None of these things is identified primarially with the RCC and none of the mainstream christian sects is totally innocent of them.

 

[CurveLight]

Well, let's see where we are. I may or may not be a liar, and not all christians are Catholics. If I recall correctly, the offer to discuss any other christian sect was declined on the grounds that I have never joined one. (Which is actually not the case. I have belonged to a Methodist church and to a Lutheran one.....pretty much the same reactions.)

So we cannot discuss prevailing christian attitudes in any context? Or would someone please choose a sect we can discuss, so we can get on with debating whether modern day American mainstream christianity is anti-female and anti-sexual?

BTW, would anyone care to address the faith's silence on Jesus' teaching that wealth is almost always a spiritual death?

CurveLight, this is a message board. I am not going to follow you to another thread under an agreement to ignore what anyone besides the two of us writes. To do so seems elitist and exhibitionistic to me. Why on earth would you and I need a message board to carry on a private conversation?

Explain to me how anyone can claim mainstream American christianity is not both anti-sexual and anti-female when:

1. So many try to interfere in government to advance religious views.

2. They oppose gay marriage, the repeal of DADT, and gay rights in general.

3. They oppose abortion -- but not content with having chosen for themselves, they seek by any means possible to foreclose that option for all American women.

4. They lobby the FDA to keep safer abortificants out of the hands of American women.

5. They oppose teaching sex ed in schools.

Shall I go on? None of these things is identified primarially with the RCC and none of the mainstream christian sects is totally innocent of them.

You were whining and falsely accusing Christians of not directly responding to your questions so I offered a solution where there would be no distractions. It's not about "following me" but solving a problem you were whining about.

Mainstream Christianity is fucked up and is anti-sex, anti-women, and generally saturated in selfishness and bigotry. People who claim otherwise have their eyes glued to their ear drums so they can't see or hear those obvious issues.

 

[Anguille]

Catholics are among the most numerous of the Christian cults. Catholic teachings were also the foundations of many Protestant sects. I don't think it makes sense to deny the influence the Vatican has had on Christianity and how it is perceived. But if I was a non Catholic Christian I think I would get a little exasperated too when people just assumed the Vatican was the final word on what Christianity is.

Don't you think that any Christian faith is a 'cult' though?

Perception is not reality.

I think it would be interesting to discuss what is and what isn't a cult. Almost always a cult is what some other religion is. I thought this was interesting:

"The word "cult" connotes neither good nor evil. Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines a cult as "a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents." Based on this rather simple definition, every church body may be classified as a cult. But there is another definition offered by Webster's , which is more akin to the use of the word employed by theologians and sociologists: "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents," and "great devotion to a person, idea, or thing."
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/isitcult.htm

I was using the word "cult" in the original sense of the word.

 

[Anguille]

The Catholic Church of my childhood viewed sexuality as being designed only for procreation.

Pope Paul VI issued a declaration in 1975 on many aspects of human sexuality. 2 It is titled: "Persona Humana - Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics." Priests and other officials in the Roman Catholic church are not allowed to offer alternative opinions in public, or even to suggest that change is needed.

Some of the pope's comments in Persona Humana apply to masturbation:

"...masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder..."
"...masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act...the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes 'the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.' All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship."
"Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of 'impurity,' 'unchasteness' and other vices contrary to chastity and continence."
"The frequency of the phenomenon in question is certainly to be linked with man's innate weakness following original sin; but it is also to be linked with the loss of a sense of God, with the corruption of morals engendered by the commercialization of vice, with the unrestrained licentiousness of so many public entertainments and publications, as well as with the neglect of modesty, which is the guardian of chastity." 3
Diversity of belief about masturbation within the Roman Catholic church

Have there been no new declarations since 1975?

I don't know, Newby, I'd have to research it. I was no longer a Catholic by 1975. I went to my first Buddhist retreat in 1982.

I'd be interested to know your reasons for leaving the Catholic Church and whether you went straight to Buddhism or if you explored other religions or atheism before settling on Buddhism.

 

[Anguille]

Some Catholic couples mistakenly believe that, within marriage, a husband and wife can make use of any kind of sexual acts with one another. On the contrary, certain kinds of sexual acts are intrinsically disordered and always gravely immoral. Such acts cannot be justified in any circumstance, for any reason, regardless of intention, even within marriage.

Certain kinds of sexual acts are intrinsically evil and are therefore always immoral, regardless of circumstances, intention, or purpose.

Examples of intrinsically disordered sexual acts include: masturbation, homosexual acts, any sexual acts with more than two participants, oral sex, anal sex, manual sex, sexual acts involving objects or devices, etc.

These sexual acts can never be justified regardless of circumstances, intention, or purpose. These sexual acts are unnatural because they violate the natural law. The human person was designed by God so that sexual relations would consist in acts of genital-to-genital intercourse, open to life, between one man and one woman. Other kinds of sexual acts are contrary to this intention and purpose of God, which He designed within human nature.
So, for example, a husband cannot deliberately stimulate the genital organs of his wife in order to give her sexual pleasure, for such an action is defined within the Catechism as a type of sexual act which is "intrinsically and gravely disordered." The masturbation of another person is no less immoral than the masturbation of oneself. And regardless of whether this "deliberate stimulation of the genital organs" is done with the hand or the mouth or an object, it remains essentially the same kind of act, one which is intrinsically and gravely disordered, according to the Catechism.

"The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." (Humanae Vitae, n. 11)

"The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable."
(Pontifical Council for the Family, Vade Mecum for Confessors concerning Some Aspects of The Morality of Conjugal Life, n. 4)
Sexual Sins within Marriage

Holy Crap!!!

 

[Anguille]

Are Catholics Christian or not? This is as clear an example of anti-sexuality (save perhaps the Taliban) that I've ever seen.

How many more examples of anti-sexuality do you need?

Okay, Sky, you win. We're all anti-sexual. Happy now?

This is ridiculous, believe whatever you want to believe, it matters not to me.

I'm not saying that all Christians are anti-sexual. I am saying that, like it or not, Catholics are Christians and that Catholic doctrine as I have shown is clearly anti-sexual. Catholics are the largest Christian denomination in the world. Here is another source:

Matthew chapter 5 (NLT)

27 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye - even if it is your good eye - causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your hand - even if it is your stronger hand - causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

31 "You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce.' 32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful, causes her to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."


The Bible On Sex And Marriage

Why would anyone claim Catholics are not Christians? It seems Newby consideres itself to be the arbiter of all that is Christian. I feel that anyone who self-identifies as a Christian should be considered a Christian. Not to do so is disrespectful and presumptuous.

 

[Anguille]

Why concede something you don't believe and I am clearly not even saying. Show me some tolerant teachings of Christianity about sexuality.

No thank you. My patience is about worn out on this topic at the moment.

Take care Sky.

I support you in replenishing your patience. Take care Newby.

LOL! You are a saint.

 

[Anguille]

Mainstream Christianity is fucked up and is anti-sex, anti-women, and generally saturated in selfishness and bigotry. People who claim otherwise have their eyes glued to their ear drums so they can't see or hear those obvious issues.

Please expand on those thoughts.

 

[Anguille]

I would like to say, that at this point, many have expounded on how righteous their individual religious leanings might be. But only Sky has actually demonstrated, by her honorable behavior, how her religion might just be a truly civilized and truth seeking religion worthy of respect.

 

[Madeline]

CurveLight wrote:

You were whining and falsely accusing Christians of not directly responding to your questions so I offered a solution where there would be no distractions. It's not about "following me" but solving a problem you were whining about.

Mainstream Christianity is fucked up and is anti-sex, anti-women, and generally saturated in selfishness and bigotry. People who claim otherwise have their eyes glued to their ear drums so they can't see or hear those obvious issues.

I don't consider the POVs of other people to be distractions. I'm having difficulty imagining what could possibly be left of the christian faith you treasured enough to get a degree in theology?

 

[Madeline]

I would like to say, that at this point, many have expounded on how righteous their individual religious leanings might be. But only Sky has actually demonstrated, by her honorable behavior, how her religion might just be a truly civilized and truth seeking religion worthy of respect.

Yup. Sky Dancer has been a class act.

 

[xsited1]

I would like to say, that at this point, many have expounded on how righteous their individual religious leanings might be. But only Sky has actually demonstrated, by her honorable behavior, how her religion might just be a truly civilized and truth seeking religion worthy of respect.

I thought she followed the Buddha. It's not technically a religion.

 

[JoLouis]

Some Catholic couples mistakenly believe that, within marriage, a husband and wife can make use of any kind of sexual acts with one another. On the contrary, certain kinds of sexual acts are intrinsically disordered and always gravely immoral. Such acts cannot be justified in any circumstance, for any reason, regardless of intention, even within marriage.

Certain kinds of sexual acts are intrinsically evil and are therefore always immoral, regardless of circumstances, intention, or purpose.

Examples of intrinsically disordered sexual acts include: masturbation, homosexual acts, any sexual acts with more than two participants, oral sex, anal sex, manual sex, sexual acts involving objects or devices, etc.

These sexual acts can never be justified regardless of circumstances, intention, or purpose. These sexual acts are unnatural because they violate the natural law. The human person was designed by God so that sexual relations would consist in acts of genital-to-genital intercourse, open to life, between one man and one woman. Other kinds of sexual acts are contrary to this intention and purpose of God, which He designed within human nature.
So, for example, a husband cannot deliberately stimulate the genital organs of his wife in order to give her sexual pleasure, for such an action is defined within the Catechism as a type of sexual act which is "intrinsically and gravely disordered." The masturbation of another person is no less immoral than the masturbation of oneself. And regardless of whether this "deliberate stimulation of the genital organs" is done with the hand or the mouth or an object, it remains essentially the same kind of act, one which is intrinsically and gravely disordered, according to the Catechism.

"The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." (Humanae Vitae, n. 11)

"The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable."
(Pontifical Council for the Family, Vade Mecum for Confessors concerning Some Aspects of The Morality of Conjugal Life, n. 4)
Sexual Sins within Marriage

Holy Crap!!!

So sky, besides just lying there, is there anything you do during sex?

 

[CurveLight]

CurveLight wrote:

You were whining and falsely accusing Christians of not directly responding to your questions so I offered a solution where there would be no distractions. It's not about "following me" but solving a problem you were whining about.

Mainstream Christianity is fucked up and is anti-sex, anti-women, and generally saturated in selfishness and bigotry. People who claim otherwise have their eyes glued to their ear drums so they can't see or hear those obvious issues.

I don't consider the POVs of other people to be distractions. I'm having difficulty imagining what could possibly be left of the christian faith you treasured enough to get a degree in theology?

I didn't say I studied theology. I said biblical studies. It was from a historical, anthropological, and social perspective. The heart of ancient Christianity is very much like buddhism and is nothing like we see in the mainstream today. By studying the biblical texts from a historical pov it provided the benefit of context. The biggest problem with American Christians today is they learn the bible through modern American eyes instead of using fundamentals like an Oral Performance model and most are completely fucking clueless about the politics between Rome, the different Jewish sects, and different pagan groups.