“Without peace with the Palestinians, Israel can never live in peace”

[Lisa558]

I don’t think that the soft words will take effect in time. Also many of the Democrats are sympathetic with Israel.

That’s the real issue here. The idea that all the Democrats are siding with the Muslims. Sure some are. And just like that some Republicans are opposing Israel.

The overwhelming majority of Republican support Israel. Not so with the Democrats.

 

[struth]

I see... first the invasion & occupation, burning their houses, taking over their lands, then subjugation and oppression for years and when they rebel, eventually the final solution. Reminds me of another time back in Germany. Oh the irony...

When did this invasion take place?

 

[SavannahMann]

The overwhelming majority of Republican support Israel. Not so with the Democrats.

It really isn’t.

For Democrats, Crisis in Israel Could Be a Unifying Force

The party’s traditional support for Israel has been tested in recent years by a vocal liberal wing, but the attacks in Israel could allow it to bridge the divide.

www.nytimes.com

There are a few that get a lot of press. Especially from the right. But misrepresenting what the other side supports and such is a time honored tradition. I don’t blame you for it.

I prefer to deal in numbers.

Most Americans in new poll say US government should publicly support Israel

Most Americans believe the U.S. government should publicly express support for Israel in its war against the Palestinian militant group Hamas, a new poll found. The NPR-PBS News Hour-Marist poll fo…

thehill.com

Now the Democratic Party knows this. And they aren’t going to go against 60%+ of the public.

They aren’t Republicans after all.

 

[ozro]

It really isn’t.

For Democrats, Crisis in Israel Could Be a Unifying Force

The party’s traditional support for Israel has been tested in recent years by a vocal liberal wing, but the attacks in Israel could allow it to bridge the divide.

www.nytimes.com

There are a few that get a lot of press. Especially from the right. But misrepresenting what the other side supports and such is a time honored tradition. I don’t blame you for it.

I prefer to deal in numbers.

Most Americans in new poll say US government should publicly support Israel

Most Americans believe the U.S. government should publicly express support for Israel in its war against the Palestinian militant group Hamas, a new poll found. The NPR-PBS News Hour-Marist poll fo…

thehill.com

Now the Democratic Party knows this. And they aren’t going to go against 60%+ of the public.

They aren’t Republicans after all.

It does appear that most Americans, of all political stripes, support Israel and do not support terrorists from HAMAS. We all can find some comfort in the decency that demonstrates.
There are some knuckleheads that are not decent, that support evil. They don't appear to be a majority in any group. (Actual racist organization members excluded).
I think it is important to be aware and appreciate the fact the we live in a country where the larger majority of people are decent, no matter what their politics are.

 

[LAUGHatLEFTISTS]

you ignore the fact the Palestinians DONT want peace and then blame the Jews for it, that is idiotic.

That is American leftism.

 

[LAUGHatLEFTISTS]

View attachment 842949 This book may help those who have trouble understanding the situation going on now in the middle east.

Why would anyone want to read a book by one of the worst presidents in history. Especially by the worst foreign affairs president.

 

[irosie91]

Am sorry, but the poker analogy sucks.

The Palestinians had no hand in the partition of Palestine. It was decided by foreign nations far, far away. Naturally, they rejected the UN decision to give up half their land. Both you and I would react in the same way - and anyone that says otherwise is lying. In 1948 thousands of Palestinians were displaced and became refugees overnight. To date, they have never been compensated for their loss and continue to live in neighbouring countries, forbidden from ever returning to their homeland.

yet ANOTHER completely uniformed post-----I am intrigued
with the term "their land" What made "their land"?

 

[irosie91]

When did this invasion take place?

or "burning their houses?

 

[Lesh]

Haven’t been able to have peace with Palestine in over 50 years

After last week it is obvious it is not going to happen

Israel has never really tried

 

[irosie91]

Israel has never really tried

Has anyone else?----peace (with islam) has been elusive for the past 1400 years

 

[Lesh]

They'll never be peace in the Middle East.

Just a hard brutal fact

That was said about Northern Ireland as well

 

[The Duke]

Ah! Another long-registered yet very few post account activating in the past few days.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I urge fellow members to make the effort to read the entire deeply emotive & eloquent article below written by an Israeli journalist. Amid terror, bloodshed, destruction and total chaos, one should still try to hold on to their humanity.

In our civilised world, revenge is not justice!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpts:

“We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer”. By Orly Noy, Israeli journalist and editor at the Hebrew-language news magazine Local Call.

We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer | Orly Noy

We are in shock as we digest the Hamas attacks and the failings of Netanyahu’s government. The worry now is what comes next.

It is still impossible to digest these darker-than-dark days that began with sirens jolting us awake on Saturday morning, a day that seems endless and probably won’t end for many days to come. The thought of the abductees in the Gaza Strip is crumpling me down with pain. Every thought of them leaves a layer of terror on the skin. The images and reports of bodies strewn in every corner, of families held hostage for hours as human shields in their own homes by Hamas militants, still haunt the mind, freezing the heart.

The absolute shock caused by Hamas’s attack on southern towns has taken various forms as the hours pass: fear, helplessness, anger, and above all, a deep sense of chaos. The colossal failures of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government and the security apparatus are converging into a sense of total breakdown. The intelligence system, which surveils every aspect of Palestinians’ lives in Gaza and the West Bank, had no prior knowledge of the attack; civilians were left defenceless for many hours against Hamas militants, who trapped them in their homes and slaughtered them without military intervention – the same military tasked with protecting every settler in the West Bank at any given moment.

Amid this absolute chaos, Netanyahu addressed citizens late on Saturday: a hollow statement with slogans such as “we will win”, “we will strike them”, “we will annihilate terrorism”. He is a man of many slogans. He promises Israel will “take mighty vengeance” and that “the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”, suffering “return fire of a magnitude that the enemy has not known”.

That language is deliberate. For while a traumatised Israeli public is not yet ready to seek the deep political and moral reckoning this catastrophe demands, the anger already directed towards Netanyahu is palpable. A prime minister entangled in legal proceedings appointed, to suit his own political needs, people who were not only extremely hawkish but also highly unprofessional – and put them in charge of our security. Rightfully he is now seen as personally responsible. He seeks to save his own political skin, once again, by urging the Knesset to establish a national emergency government, much like the one he formed three years ago with the leader of the National Unity party, Benny Gantz, under the pretext of a coronavirus response. But even without that national emergency government being formed, the Jewish opposition in the Knesset fully supports the government’s deadly attack on Gaza. And they are not alone: many Israelis want to see the entire Gaza Strip pay an unprecedented price.

The public desire for revenge is both understandable and terrifying, but the erasure of any moral red line is always a frightening thing.

It is important not to minimise or condone the heinous crimes committed by Hamas. But it is also important to remind ourselves that everything it is inflicting on us now, we have been inflicting on the Palestinians for years. Indiscriminate firing, including at children and older people; intrusion into their homes; burning down their houses; taking hostages – not just fighters but civilians, children and older people. I keep reminding myself that ignoring this context is giving up a piece of my own humanity. Because violence devoid of any context leads to only one possible response: revenge. And I don’t want revenge from anyone. Because revenge is the opposite of security, it is the opposite of peace, it is also the opposite of justice. It is nothing but more violence.

I maintain that there are crimes of abundance and there are crimes of hunger, and we have not only brought Gaza to the brink of starvation, we have brought it to a state of collapse. Always in the name of security. How much security did we get? Where will another round of revenge take us?

Terrible crimes were committed against Israelis this Saturday, crimes that the mind cannot fathom – and in this time of dark grief, I cling to the one thing I have left to hold on to: my humanity. The absolute belief that this hell is not predestined. Not for us, nor for them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Replies to the above article:

Thank you, Orly Noy, for capturing the horror, terror and desolate grief with a fair accountability of how such a heinous attack comes into being (We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer, 9 October). Two days before the horrific attack by Hamas, I finished reading the anthology Light in Gaza, by Palestinians writing about their lives under 16 years of Israel’s blockade. It is profound, inspiring, heart-wrenching, and powerfully important to help understand how hate is perpetuated by ongoing oppression and persecution, which feeds the violence of Hamas.

The attacks by Hamas are horrific and so are the retaliation strikes and blockade of food and water and medical supplies for more than 2 million people.

Had we acknowledged that we built modern Israel on stolen land and that 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled; had we made some effort at reparations; had we treated Palestinians with the same rights as we treat Israeli Jews; had there been one law for all people, as taught by Leviticus 24:22, it is much more likely that so much of this violence could have been prevented.

But a justice system that allows ongoing theft and violence against a people can only lead to deepening rage and violence. May we learn from these attacks and fight against all injustice and violence. May we grieve all of the deaths, wounding and horrific oppression.


Harriet Cooke-Cohen
Portland, Oregon, US

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is with horror and deep sorrow that I read about the latest violence in Israel and Palestine. I feel so sad for all those people, Palestinian and Israeli, who have been working with all they have towards finding a just and lasting peace. Fighting and violence, whether it’s Hamas or the Israeli military, is the same: violence and disaster for civilians and for humanity. The only answer is to dissolve violence, aggression, guns and walls, and accept that what you sow, you reap.

If security is required, a true feeling of safety will need to be fostered for all occupants and generations in Israel and Palestine. How much money has the US given to Israel for weapons and military security? These funds need to go towards reconciliation, towards working for a genuine lasting peace in Palestine and Israel.


Karen Sillence
Bristol

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was a phrase used in Northern Ireland during the Troubles – “acceptable level of violence”. The Israeli people have lived like this since the last intifada, or perhaps since 1967. Surely history should have taught them that you cannot live like this for ever. They will have to come to an accommodation with the Palestinian people sooner rather than later. Dismissing them as terrorists will not work. The former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, who had some experience of terrorism, knew this, which was why he sought peace with Egypt and Jordan. A future Israeli government will have to do the same. The present administration never will.


Brian Dermody
Blessington, County Wicklow, Ireland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Almost exactly a year ago, the Palestinian lawyer and writer Raja Shehadeh wrote that “without peace with the Palestinians, Israel can never live in peace” (14 October 2022). Still desperately true, as the front-page headline on your print edition on Monday – “Violence escalates as death toll surges over 1,000” – makes clear.


Margaret and Robin Derbyshire
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

All very touching. But the block to peace isn’t Israel, it’s the Palestinians. They refuse to acknowledge any right for Israel to even exist. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is their slogan and that is the only thing they will accept. A Juden frei Palestine like the Germans wanted a Juden frei Germany.

 

[SavannahMann]

It does appear that most Americans, of all political stripes, support Israel and do not support terrorists from HAMAS. We all can find some comfort in the decency that demonstrates.
There are some knuckleheads that are not decent, that support evil. They don't appear to be a majority in any group. (Actual racist organization members excluded).
I think it is important to be aware and appreciate the fact the we live in a country where the larger majority of people are decent, no matter what their politics are.

I joined the Army during the Reagan years. I mention that as an indicator of my age and experience.

When I was growing up I learned that compromise was the key to success in deals, and in politics. You have to meet somewhere in the middle and walk away with a deal that you don’t live, but you can live with. The other side doesn’t live it, but they can live with it.

What happened is that we started to highlight the voices on the extreme. The extreme right and the extreme left. We used those extremes to gun up support for our side. And soon we as a people began believing the propaganda. In that we aren’t alone. History is filled with examples of similar behavior.

It’s comforting to think our side is good and their side is bad. It’s a lot easier to do that than explain the nuances of the positions.

I have mocked a lot of people on the right, and left. I don’t overstate their importance, or their support. I try and filter everything through my core beliefs.

I tend to reject radicals on both sides. They aren’t the enemy. They are just people who are more passionate than I believe is wise. I just don’t have the energy or the time to hate that much.

 

[Hector12]

Without JUSTICE for the Palestinians, there can never be PEACE with Israel. For decades, Israeli governments have chosen oppression. One does not live peacefully with an oppressor!

The Palestinians interpret justice for themselves as the destruction of Israel.

 

[Hector12]

Would YOU make peace with someone who has invaded your home and has been oppressing you & your family ever since??? Please keep it civil - there's no need for insults.

The land does not belong to the Palestinians. They are squatters. The land belongs to the Jews. The Palestinians should have been deported right after the 1967 Six Day War.

 

[Lisa558]

Ah! Another long-registered yet very few post account activating in the past few days.

I’m wondering who has the ability to dive into dormant accounts like this and use them to express anti-Israel and antisemitic views? Very strange.

P.S. I do hope one of our very active mods (Coyote) hasn’t fallen ill. She hasn’t been heard from in a week, and she’s always been quite verbal in her support of the Palestinian side.

 

[Lisa558]

The land does not belong to the Palestinians. They are squatters. The land belongs to the Jews. The Palestinians should have been deported right after the 1967 Six Day War.

Yes, that was Israel’s attempt to show humanity to people who had just tried to eliminate it via a three-pronged attack by Arabs.

But they will do so now. The people who teach their children to kill Jews, and whose leaders just launched a massacre against Jews so horrific that reporters are crying when reporting what they’ve found, have been given warning to evacuate to save their own lives. How terrible that HAMAS is telling them to remain in order to drive up the death count.

 

[SweetSue92]

I urge fellow members to make the effort to read the entire deeply emotive & eloquent article below written by an Israeli journalist. Amid terror, bloodshed, destruction and total chaos, one should still try to hold on to their humanity.

In our civilised world, revenge is not justice!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excerpts:

“We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer”. By Orly Noy, Israeli journalist and editor at the Hebrew-language news magazine Local Call.

We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer | Orly Noy

We are in shock as we digest the Hamas attacks and the failings of Netanyahu’s government. The worry now is what comes next.

It is still impossible to digest these darker-than-dark days that began with sirens jolting us awake on Saturday morning, a day that seems endless and probably won’t end for many days to come. The thought of the abductees in the Gaza Strip is crumpling me down with pain. Every thought of them leaves a layer of terror on the skin. The images and reports of bodies strewn in every corner, of families held hostage for hours as human shields in their own homes by Hamas militants, still haunt the mind, freezing the heart.

The absolute shock caused by Hamas’s attack on southern towns has taken various forms as the hours pass: fear, helplessness, anger, and above all, a deep sense of chaos. The colossal failures of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government and the security apparatus are converging into a sense of total breakdown. The intelligence system, which surveils every aspect of Palestinians’ lives in Gaza and the West Bank, had no prior knowledge of the attack; civilians were left defenceless for many hours against Hamas militants, who trapped them in their homes and slaughtered them without military intervention – the same military tasked with protecting every settler in the West Bank at any given moment.

Amid this absolute chaos, Netanyahu addressed citizens late on Saturday: a hollow statement with slogans such as “we will win”, “we will strike them”, “we will annihilate terrorism”. He is a man of many slogans. He promises Israel will “take mighty vengeance” and that “the enemy will pay an unprecedented price”, suffering “return fire of a magnitude that the enemy has not known”.

That language is deliberate. For while a traumatised Israeli public is not yet ready to seek the deep political and moral reckoning this catastrophe demands, the anger already directed towards Netanyahu is palpable. A prime minister entangled in legal proceedings appointed, to suit his own political needs, people who were not only extremely hawkish but also highly unprofessional – and put them in charge of our security. Rightfully he is now seen as personally responsible. He seeks to save his own political skin, once again, by urging the Knesset to establish a national emergency government, much like the one he formed three years ago with the leader of the National Unity party, Benny Gantz, under the pretext of a coronavirus response. But even without that national emergency government being formed, the Jewish opposition in the Knesset fully supports the government’s deadly attack on Gaza. And they are not alone: many Israelis want to see the entire Gaza Strip pay an unprecedented price.

The public desire for revenge is both understandable and terrifying, but the erasure of any moral red line is always a frightening thing.

It is important not to minimise or condone the heinous crimes committed by Hamas. But it is also important to remind ourselves that everything it is inflicting on us now, we have been inflicting on the Palestinians for years. Indiscriminate firing, including at children and older people; intrusion into their homes; burning down their houses; taking hostages – not just fighters but civilians, children and older people. I keep reminding myself that ignoring this context is giving up a piece of my own humanity. Because violence devoid of any context leads to only one possible response: revenge. And I don’t want revenge from anyone. Because revenge is the opposite of security, it is the opposite of peace, it is also the opposite of justice. It is nothing but more violence.

I maintain that there are crimes of abundance and there are crimes of hunger, and we have not only brought Gaza to the brink of starvation, we have brought it to a state of collapse. Always in the name of security. How much security did we get? Where will another round of revenge take us?

Terrible crimes were committed against Israelis this Saturday, crimes that the mind cannot fathom – and in this time of dark grief, I cling to the one thing I have left to hold on to: my humanity. The absolute belief that this hell is not predestined. Not for us, nor for them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Replies to the above article:

Thank you, Orly Noy, for capturing the horror, terror and desolate grief with a fair accountability of how such a heinous attack comes into being (We feel fear, anger and helplessness: all of Israel is in a state of war. But revenge is not the answer, 9 October). Two days before the horrific attack by Hamas, I finished reading the anthology Light in Gaza, by Palestinians writing about their lives under 16 years of Israel’s blockade. It is profound, inspiring, heart-wrenching, and powerfully important to help understand how hate is perpetuated by ongoing oppression and persecution, which feeds the violence of Hamas.

The attacks by Hamas are horrific and so are the retaliation strikes and blockade of food and water and medical supplies for more than 2 million people.

Had we acknowledged that we built modern Israel on stolen land and that 750,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled; had we made some effort at reparations; had we treated Palestinians with the same rights as we treat Israeli Jews; had there been one law for all people, as taught by Leviticus 24:22, it is much more likely that so much of this violence could have been prevented.

But a justice system that allows ongoing theft and violence against a people can only lead to deepening rage and violence. May we learn from these attacks and fight against all injustice and violence. May we grieve all of the deaths, wounding and horrific oppression.


Harriet Cooke-Cohen
Portland, Oregon, US

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is with horror and deep sorrow that I read about the latest violence in Israel and Palestine. I feel so sad for all those people, Palestinian and Israeli, who have been working with all they have towards finding a just and lasting peace. Fighting and violence, whether it’s Hamas or the Israeli military, is the same: violence and disaster for civilians and for humanity. The only answer is to dissolve violence, aggression, guns and walls, and accept that what you sow, you reap.

If security is required, a true feeling of safety will need to be fostered for all occupants and generations in Israel and Palestine. How much money has the US given to Israel for weapons and military security? These funds need to go towards reconciliation, towards working for a genuine lasting peace in Palestine and Israel.


Karen Sillence
Bristol

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was a phrase used in Northern Ireland during the Troubles – “acceptable level of violence”. The Israeli people have lived like this since the last intifada, or perhaps since 1967. Surely history should have taught them that you cannot live like this for ever. They will have to come to an accommodation with the Palestinian people sooner rather than later. Dismissing them as terrorists will not work. The former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, who had some experience of terrorism, knew this, which was why he sought peace with Egypt and Jordan. A future Israeli government will have to do the same. The present administration never will.


Brian Dermody
Blessington, County Wicklow, Ireland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Almost exactly a year ago, the Palestinian lawyer and writer Raja Shehadeh wrote that “without peace with the Palestinians, Israel can never live in peace” (14 October 2022). Still desperately true, as the front-page headline on your print edition on Monday – “Violence escalates as death toll surges over 1,000” – makes clear.


Margaret and Robin Derbyshire
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

These posts and words are no longer to be entertained or reasoned with.

You lift the rock and watch in abject horror as the creepy-crawlies do their thing. That is these posts now. In any case, you do not reason with the creepy-crawlies.

 

[SweetSue92]

I don’t think that the soft words will take effect in time. Also many of the Democrats are sympathetic with Israel.

That’s the real issue here. The idea that all the Democrats are siding with the Muslims. Sure some are. And just like that some Republicans are opposing Israel.

All Democrats running from their own words and ideologies: