Zone1 witnessing to a catholic

[Carl in Michigan]

--and you understand u got this from where, the Bible?

Yes. The Scriptures are absolutely clear on this.
Glad to help

 

[theHawk]

There is NO queen of heaven, Jesus mother is not running spec op's for him, that is a deception, that being is Astarte!

Absurd. No one claims that Mary mother of Jesus is running things in heaven. She is a saint and certainly Jesus would have a special place for her in heaven, but He is the judge of all.

 

[theHawk]

That is exactly the point, "there are not many ways to god," there is only the one! I am not preaching to you, I have already covered that dodge for you, read it all, if you have at all, and do not cherry pick from it, read it all, "we are told, but do we listen???"

If any of this is true, then it matters more than you possibly can know, because he(Jesus)describes in detail what happens to anyone who leads anyone else away from his message, there is only the one way, not many!

And that one way is your way?

What is your church?

 

[Death-Ninja]

Have you ever attended Mass?

We begin with Confession: I confess to almighty God... (it ends with...through my most grievous fault. Therefore I ask Blessed Mary—ever virgin—all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.”

We ask for mercy: Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy...

We praise God: Glory to God in the highest...

We read from the Old Testament (We go through the entire Bible every three years)

We sing/recite a Psalm

We read from the New Testament Letters or Revelation

Gospel Reading (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)

Homily - We listen to how the themes of the the day's readings can be incorporated into our lives today.

We pray the Nicene Creed: I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth (Yes, the prayer mentions Jesus is incarnate of the virgin Mary

Eucharistic Prayers and Celebration which includes the Lord's Prayer

We receive the holy Eucharistic.

Closing prayer.

There you have it. Mary is mentioned twice. Once when we include her when we ask all to pray to God for us. The second time when it is noted Jesus was incarnate of Mary.

Oh, the horror! Right?

Please, I was a Jewish boy raised Roman Catholic, I attended 12 years of private Catholic schooling, I am well versed in the lies, among which are the so-called sacraments. I was not born knowing what I know, in point of fact I have always been at best, described as a Christian pole sitter, I am the last person on earth qualified to preach, and therefore I do not!

In the latter years I have come to know some very smart folk who are legitimate Christians, and I but acted upon their suggestions and actually read the book(bible)! Read the book, actually read the thing, start with the Revelation of John with particular attention to what Jesus Christ describes.

Then come back here and lecture us on the good works of Catholicism, here's a hint for you, nothing you do gets you across the finish line, no good work qualifies you, though keep to those works out of decency, there is only one way for any believer to an afterlife, belief in Jesus and his ministry, and full and total repentance, he is the sole intercessor period!

I brought up Fatima to make a specific point with you, it really happened, most of the so-called Marian visions are lies, some the Church of Rome runs with when convenient, some they do not, but Fatima actually happened, its likely that some 250,000 men, women, and children viewed it in some capacity, it happened. The very first time I looked upon that with a critical eye, was after having read a book by a giant of science named Jaqques Vallee, who catalogued such as a classic UFO encounter.

Yet Vallee went further, and this is the important part, he knew this thing has occurred, and that tens of thousands were deeply moved by it, that the Catholic Church of Rome authenticated it and sanctified it, but the problem with that, and which was noted by Vallee, was that the entity's(there were more than one)instructed the children to inform the adults that the Lady of Fatima wanted a shrine built, to herself! We have a word for such, that word is heresy....

I am not preaching to you, I am just far better read on the topic, that entity was NOT Mary, mother of Jesus, and you will find absolutely no place in the bible where Jesus instructs his disciples that he, and his earthly mother or father will be sharing the duties of acting as your intercessors with God, there is one one way to God, and it is not through that thing, or any Roman manufactured scam sacraments, the only way through the door(direct from Jesus lips)is through him and the grace he obtained for you, all other comers are going to hell no matter what!

 

[Meriweather]

Please, I was a Jewish boy raised Roman Catholic, I attended 12 years of private Catholic schooling, I am well versed in the lies, among which are the so-called sacraments. I was not born knowing what I know, in point of fact I have always been at best, described as a Christian pole sitter, I am the last person on earth qualified to preach, and therefore I do not!

You say you had Catholic schooling and you don't even know how the Sacraments parallel the life of Jesus and his ministry? Someone wasn't listening. A common ailment among students in all subjects, but you know nothing of Catholicism if you believe even a fraction of what you wrote in that post.

 

[Meriweather]

In the latter years I have come to know some very smart folk who are legitimate Christians, and I but acted upon their suggestions and actually read the book(bible)! Read the book, actually read the thing, start with the Revelation of John with particular attention to what Jesus Christ describes.

If you paid close attention to Revelation, then you are fully aware John was describing events and issues of his own time (first century)?

 

[Meriweather]

he Lady of Fatima wanted a shrine built, to herself!

She wanted a chapel built. A chapel is for prayer and to celebrate Mass (worship God). It is known as our Lady of the Rosary. In Catholicism, churches and chapels are often named after Saints, which Mary is one. Was the church closest to your school named after a Saint?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

If you paid close attention to Revelation, then you are fully aware John was describing events and issues of his own time (first century)?

You really believe that? Has to he 1,000 year reign occured? Has Satan been bound up?

I thought you knew better

 

[Meriweather]

I am not preaching to you, I am just far better read on the topic, that entity was NOT Mary, mother of Jesus, and you will find absolutely no place in the bible where Jesus instructs his disciples that he, and his earthly mother or father will be sharing the duties of acting as your intercessors with God, there is one one way to God, and it is not through that thing, or any Roman manufactured scam sacraments, the only way through the door(direct from Jesus lips)is through him and the grace he obtained for you, all other comers are going to hell no matter what!

Actually, you are not better read--not even very well read. You claim you had a Catholic education and yet you seem totally oblivious that Catholics ask one another to join them in prayer (when two or three are gathered in my name). In Catholicism, the living members of the Body of Christ include both those who are still alive on earth and those who have passed on.

Yes, many Catholics often ask Mary to join in their prayers. Not knowing Mary, I typically ask those I know. I have an aunt who turned to Saint Joseph, a sister who...well, you catch my drift, I'm sure. Catholics pray together. We are all members of the living Body of Christ.

 

[Meriweather]

I thought you knew better

That's my point. I know better.

 

[Death-Ninja]

If you paid close attention to Revelation, then you are fully aware John was describing events and issues of his own time (first century)?

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

James 2:14-26 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Read More...)

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 2:6-8 - Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (Read More...)

Matthew 25:31-46 - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Read More...)

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matthew 6:1-4 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Read More...)

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (Read More...)

Checkmate........

 

[Carl in Michigan]

That's my point. I know better.

You're not Biblically literate, sorry to say.

 

[gtopa1]

Getting sprinkled as a baby is not going to do anything… that's unbiblical, and it's just a religious ritual.

Being born again means you literally become a new creation. It's not a mere religious thing. It's being born spiritually, as a true son or daughter of God, with a new nature... all things become new. The girl in the video wasn't sure if she was born again… If someone isn't sure, then that's a good indication that they probably aren't.

It's an OLD debate...centuries old. Baptism does several things. This is a good source if you are really interested.

Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, “For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him” (2:39, emphasis added). We also read: “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name” (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3 “Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Infant Baptism

Did Jesus intend baptism to be adminstered to infants? We defend this Catholic practice and give you some pointers on how you can explain it to others.

www.catholic.com

Reading is good for the soul, and you strike me as a reader.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

James 2:14-26 - What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (Read More...)

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 2:6-8 - Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (Read More...)

Matthew 25:31-46 - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (Read More...)

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matthew 6:1-4 - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. (Read More...)

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (Read More...)

Checkmate........

Not even close.

Greg

 

[Death-Ninja]

Not even close.

Greg

As for your "ahh" sacraments and Marian worship, we have this tidbit,

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book..” Revelation 22:18-19

 

[gtopa1]

they knew how to add their forgeries and fallacies to truths when writing the c-bible to create their own religion and claim their religion reflected 1st century events when in fact theirs is a religion of servitude, the opposite for what those people in the 1st century truly died for.

the proof is there is not an archive of the material they used to write the c-bible for verification of the truths - they claim.


she gave sincere responses during the interview and not swayed by the interviewer's comments.

there is not an archive of the material they used to write the c-bible for verification of the truths

• · He who does not know how to write supposes it to be no labor; but though on three fingers write, the whole body labors.
• · Writing bows one’s back, thrusts the ribs into one’s stomach, and fosters a general debility of the body.
• · As travelers rejoice to see their home country, so also is the end of a book to those who toil (in writing).
• · An Armenian copyist says in a Gospel that a heavy snowstorm was raging and that the scribe’s ink froze, his hand became numb, and the pen fell from his fingers!
• · Some manuscripts may end with gratitude: The end of the book; thanks be to God.

With so many different manuscripts, written by different people with varying educational levels, and speaking different languages, there are many textual variations. The original documents of the New Testament no longer exist and no two copies agree completely. As a result, the study of textual criticism has come about. It is the “study of the copies of any written document whose original is unknown or nonexistent in order to determine the exact wording of the original. Such a task is necessary for an extensive amount of literature, especially that which was written before the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The New Testament is no exception to this rule” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).

What about Variances in the Early Texts?
As we know it today, there are around 138,000 words in the Greek New Testament. There are literally hundreds of thousands of variants where there is not uniformity of wording. On average, for every word in the Greek New Testament, there are almost three variants. The large number is due to the large number of manuscripts. Are these differences capable in changing the meaning of the intent of the original authors? No. An overwhelming majority of alterations are accidental and trivial.
Textual differences are typically divided into four categories.

• · He who does not know how to write supposes it to be no labor; but though on three fingers write, the whole body labors.
  • · Spelling and Nonsense Errors. This is by far the largest of the categories and the majority of these are spelling differences that have no impact on the meaning of the text. For example, in the Greek, John is spelled two different ways. The same person is in view; but the difference is in whether the scribe decided to spell John using two “n’s” or one. Another common difference found in Greek manuscripts is similar to the two forms of the indefinite article in English: a or an. These variances are so insignificant that most textual critics ignore them. Scribes who were tired or inattentive often created “nonsense errors.” For example, Codex Washingtonianus contains an error where a scribe wrote the word and instead of the word Lord. In the Greek, the two words are very similar (kai and kurios) and the mistake probably happened due to mental fatigue. In the overall context, the usage of the word and does not change the meaning of the text.
  • · Minor changes and alterations that do not affect translation. This category consists of variations in the usage of a definite article with proper names. Sometimes Greek uses the definite article with proper names while English does not. For example, in Luke 2.16, some manuscripts identify Mary and Joseph as the Mary and the Joseph instead of just Mary and Joseph. In other manuscripts, the article was not used. Also, word-order differences account for many of the discrepancies. An example of this can be seen in a sentence such as “Jesus loves John.” “In Greek, that sentence can be expressed in at least sixteen different ways without affecting the basic sense” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012). Word order changes are frequent in the manuscripts, yet these do not affect the basic meaning of what is being said.
  • · Meaningful changes that are not “Viable.” One example is found in 1 Thessalonians 2.9. A late medieval manuscript (from the 13th century) uses the phrase “the gospel of Christ.” This is a meaningful change, but not viable because almost all of the other manuscripts use the term “the gospel of God.” Other examples are seen throughout the gospels as scribes often tried to harmonize the wording between the gospel accounts. When they did so, they “tended to add material to one Gospel rather than take away material from another” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).
  • · Meaningful and “Viable” Variants. This represents about 1 percent of all textual variants. In these cases, the difference in the manuscripts can affect the understanding of a passage. Daniel Wallace identifies three significant examples:
  • o Romans 5.1 – Some manuscripts read we have peace while others say let us have peace. In the original language, the difference in the word is found in one letter. “If we have peace is authentic, Paul is speaking about believer’s status with God; if let us have peace is authentic, the apostle is urging Christians to enjoy the experience of this harmony with God in their lives. As important as this textual problem is, neither variant contradicts any of the teachings of Scripture elsewhere, and both readings state something that is theologically sound,[3]” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012).
  • o Mark 16.9-10 and John 7.53-8.11 are omitted in the earliest manuscripts and do not fit well with the style of writing of the authors. Even if one were to take away these passages, no essential matters of doctrine are changed.
• What are we to make of these variants? Should our faith be shaken? Absolutely not. “For more than two centuries, most biblical scholars have declared that no essential affirmation has been affected by the variants” (Taylor, 2012). In their attempts to recover the originals, textual critics have recovered at least 95% of the inspired words. Some even go farther, placing the number as high as 99%. Scholars such as Philip Comfort have ascertained that while there are differing conclusions on some of the variants in the manuscripts, “this is, by no means, a large number… And this should not cause us to abandon the task of recovering the original wording of the New Testament. New insights have come and will keep coming, in the new form of actual documents, new methodologies, and new understandings” (Comfort P. W., 2005). Another scholar writes, “The verbal agreement between various New Testament manuscripts is closer than between many English translations of the New Testament and the percentage of variants in the New Testament is small…and no matter of doctrine hinges on a variant reading” (Wegner, 2006). Think about the first part of Wegner’s statement. There are thousands of Greek manuscripts available, coming from different times and places. They agree more often than our English translations! Amazing!
  
  Concluding Thoughts
  Even though the original autographs disappeared thousands of years ago, God has preserved His word. Over the course of history, has not God worked through human beings to accomplish His purposes? Arlandson (2007) makes a powerful comparison when referencing the writing of C.S. Lewis on miracles. “The moment (a miracle) enters (nature’s) realm, it obeys her laws. Miraculous wine will intoxicate, miraculous conception will lead to pregnancy, inspired books will suffer all the ordinary processes of textual corruption, and miraculous bread will be digested” (Lewis, 1947).
  Despite undergoing all the processes of time, the fact that the Biblical manuscripts have been preserved in the way they have should strengthen our faith. The ancient inspired writings are not alone - no text coming from the ancient world has the originals. It should humble us when we see how Scripture has been handed down through the generations. Many scribes spent countless hours copying and checking their work to ensure an accurate text for the generations that would come after them. Theirs was often a behind-the-scenes endeavor that garnered little attention. But, there is little doubt they understood the significance of the Word of God. Instead of having our faith shaken, we should be strengthened when we consider that Modern Greek texts are very close to the original.
  In the end, we simply need to fall back on faith. We can rest in confidence that our sovereign and powerful God not only inspired the Biblical writers, but He has also providentially overseen its preservation in such a way that the Bible we have today is reliable. It is nothing less than the infallible, inerrant Word of God Himself. What Isaiah said 2700 years ago will always ring true: The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever, Isaiah 40.8.
  

  The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

  www.bible.ca

There are THOUSANDS of them. The Library at the Vatican is incredible; I asked to go in but...well...I was too dumb. lol​

Of course you could just go to the Library.

Vatican Library Collection and Secrets - What's inside?

What is the Vatican Library Collection? And what Vatican Secrets are being kept? Read on to check out how to get access to the Vatican Library here.

visitvatican.info

or "Virtually".....

DigiVatLib

digi.vatlib.it

PS: Problem copying the lot; y'all will just have to go to the site.......sorry 'bout that, Chief.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

Please, I was a Jewish boy raised Roman Catholic, I attended 12 years of private Catholic schooling, I am well versed in the lies, among which are the so-called sacraments. I was not born knowing what I know, in point of fact I have always been at best, described as a Christian pole sitter, I am the last person on earth qualified to preach, and therefore I do not!

In the latter years I have come to know some very smart folk who are legitimate Christians, and I but acted upon their suggestions and actually read the book(bible)! Read the book, actually read the thing, start with the Revelation of John with particular attention to what Jesus Christ describes.

Then come back here and lecture us on the good works of Catholicism, here's a hint for you, nothing you do gets you across the finish line, no good work qualifies you, though keep to those works out of decency, there is only one way for any believer to an afterlife, belief in Jesus and his ministry, and full and total repentance, he is the sole intercessor period!

I brought up Fatima to make a specific point with you, it really happened, most of the so-called Marian visions are lies, some the Church of Rome runs with when convenient, some they do not, but Fatima actually happened, its likely that some 250,000 men, women, and children viewed it in some capacity, it happened. The very first time I looked upon that with a critical eye, was after having read a book by a giant of science named Jaqques Vallee, who catalogued such as a classic UFO encounter.

Yet Vallee went further, and this is the important part, he knew this thing has occurred, and that tens of thousands were deeply moved by it, that the Catholic Church of Rome authenticated it and sanctified it, but the problem with that, and which was noted by Vallee, was that the entity's(there were more than one)instructed the children to inform the adults that the Lady of Fatima wanted a shrine built, to herself! We have a word for such, that word is heresy....

I am not preaching to you, I am just far better read on the topic, that entity was NOT Mary, mother of Jesus, and you will find absolutely no place in the bible where Jesus instructs his disciples that he, and his earthly mother or father will be sharing the duties of acting as your intercessors with God, there is one one way to God, and it is not through that thing, or any Roman manufactured scam sacraments, the only way through the door(direct from Jesus lips)is through him and the grace he obtained for you, all other comers are going to hell no matter what!

You're being an arrogant prick. Love ya anyway!!! lol

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

there is not an archive of the material they used to write the c-bible for verification of the truths

• · He who does not know how to write supposes it to be no labor; but though on three fingers write, the whole body labors.
• · Writing bows one’s back, thrusts the ribs into one’s stomach, and fosters a general debility of the body.
• · As travelers rejoice to see their home country, so also is the end of a book to those who toil (in writing).
• · An Armenian copyist says in a Gospel that a heavy snowstorm was raging and that the scribe’s ink froze, his hand became numb, and the pen fell from his fingers!
• · Some manuscripts may end with gratitude: The end of the book; thanks be to God.

With so many different manuscripts, written by different people with varying educational levels, and speaking different languages, there are many textual variations. The original documents of the New Testament no longer exist and no two copies agree completely. As a result, the study of textual criticism has come about. It is the “study of the copies of any written document whose original is unknown or nonexistent in order to determine the exact wording of the original. Such a task is necessary for an extensive amount of literature, especially that which was written before the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The New Testament is no exception to this rule” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).

What about Variances in the Early Texts?
As we know it today, there are around 138,000 words in the Greek New Testament. There are literally hundreds of thousands of variants where there is not uniformity of wording. On average, for every word in the Greek New Testament, there are almost three variants. The large number is due to the large number of manuscripts. Are these differences capable in changing the meaning of the intent of the original authors? No. An overwhelming majority of alterations are accidental and trivial.
Textual differences are typically divided into four categories.

• · He who does not know how to write supposes it to be no labor; but though on three fingers write, the whole body labors.
  • · Spelling and Nonsense Errors. This is by far the largest of the categories and the majority of these are spelling differences that have no impact on the meaning of the text. For example, in the Greek, John is spelled two different ways. The same person is in view; but the difference is in whether the scribe decided to spell John using two “n’s” or one. Another common difference found in Greek manuscripts is similar to the two forms of the indefinite article in English: a or an. These variances are so insignificant that most textual critics ignore them. Scribes who were tired or inattentive often created “nonsense errors.” For example, Codex Washingtonianus contains an error where a scribe wrote the word and instead of the word Lord. In the Greek, the two words are very similar (kai and kurios) and the mistake probably happened due to mental fatigue. In the overall context, the usage of the word and does not change the meaning of the text.
  • · Minor changes and alterations that do not affect translation. This category consists of variations in the usage of a definite article with proper names. Sometimes Greek uses the definite article with proper names while English does not. For example, in Luke 2.16, some manuscripts identify Mary and Joseph as the Mary and the Joseph instead of just Mary and Joseph. In other manuscripts, the article was not used. Also, word-order differences account for many of the discrepancies. An example of this can be seen in a sentence such as “Jesus loves John.” “In Greek, that sentence can be expressed in at least sixteen different ways without affecting the basic sense” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012). Word order changes are frequent in the manuscripts, yet these do not affect the basic meaning of what is being said.
  • · Meaningful changes that are not “Viable.” One example is found in 1 Thessalonians 2.9. A late medieval manuscript (from the 13th century) uses the phrase “the gospel of Christ.” This is a meaningful change, but not viable because almost all of the other manuscripts use the term “the gospel of God.” Other examples are seen throughout the gospels as scribes often tried to harmonize the wording between the gospel accounts. When they did so, they “tended to add material to one Gospel rather than take away material from another” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).
  • · Meaningful and “Viable” Variants. This represents about 1 percent of all textual variants. In these cases, the difference in the manuscripts can affect the understanding of a passage. Daniel Wallace identifies three significant examples:
  • o Romans 5.1 – Some manuscripts read we have peace while others say let us have peace. In the original language, the difference in the word is found in one letter. “If we have peace is authentic, Paul is speaking about believer’s status with God; if let us have peace is authentic, the apostle is urging Christians to enjoy the experience of this harmony with God in their lives. As important as this textual problem is, neither variant contradicts any of the teachings of Scripture elsewhere, and both readings state something that is theologically sound,[3]” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012).
  • o Mark 16.9-10 and John 7.53-8.11 are omitted in the earliest manuscripts and do not fit well with the style of writing of the authors. Even if one were to take away these passages, no essential matters of doctrine are changed.
• What are we to make of these variants? Should our faith be shaken? Absolutely not. “For more than two centuries, most biblical scholars have declared that no essential affirmation has been affected by the variants” (Taylor, 2012). In their attempts to recover the originals, textual critics have recovered at least 95% of the inspired words. Some even go farther, placing the number as high as 99%. Scholars such as Philip Comfort have ascertained that while there are differing conclusions on some of the variants in the manuscripts, “this is, by no means, a large number… And this should not cause us to abandon the task of recovering the original wording of the New Testament. New insights have come and will keep coming, in the new form of actual documents, new methodologies, and new understandings” (Comfort P. W., 2005). Another scholar writes, “The verbal agreement between various New Testament manuscripts is closer than between many English translations of the New Testament and the percentage of variants in the New Testament is small…and no matter of doctrine hinges on a variant reading” (Wegner, 2006). Think about the first part of Wegner’s statement. There are thousands of Greek manuscripts available, coming from different times and places. They agree more often than our English translations! Amazing!
  
  Concluding Thoughts
  Even though the original autographs disappeared thousands of years ago, God has preserved His word. Over the course of history, has not God worked through human beings to accomplish His purposes? Arlandson (2007) makes a powerful comparison when referencing the writing of C.S. Lewis on miracles. “The moment (a miracle) enters (nature’s) realm, it obeys her laws. Miraculous wine will intoxicate, miraculous conception will lead to pregnancy, inspired books will suffer all the ordinary processes of textual corruption, and miraculous bread will be digested” (Lewis, 1947).
  Despite undergoing all the processes of time, the fact that the Biblical manuscripts have been preserved in the way they have should strengthen our faith. The ancient inspired writings are not alone - no text coming from the ancient world has the originals. It should humble us when we see how Scripture has been handed down through the generations. Many scribes spent countless hours copying and checking their work to ensure an accurate text for the generations that would come after them. Theirs was often a behind-the-scenes endeavor that garnered little attention. But, there is little doubt they understood the significance of the Word of God. Instead of having our faith shaken, we should be strengthened when we consider that Modern Greek texts are very close to the original.
  In the end, we simply need to fall back on faith. We can rest in confidence that our sovereign and powerful God not only inspired the Biblical writers, but He has also providentially overseen its preservation in such a way that the Bible we have today is reliable. It is nothing less than the infallible, inerrant Word of God Himself. What Isaiah said 2700 years ago will always ring true: The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever, Isaiah 40.8.
  

  The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

  www.bible.ca

There are THOUSANDS of them. The Library at the Vatican is incredible; I asked to go in but...well...I was too dumb. lol​

Of course you could just go to the Library.

Vatican Library Collection and Secrets - What's inside?

What is the Vatican Library Collection? And what Vatican Secrets are being kept? Read on to check out how to get access to the Vatican Library here.

visitvatican.info

or "Virtually".....

DigiVatLib

digi.vatlib.it

PS: Problem copying the lot; y'all will just have to go to the site.......sorry 'bout that, Chief.

Greg

The start...I hope.


[From The Editors: This article is one of a series we are running this year. The 2013 series is called "The Integrity of the New Testament" and deals with textual criticism. Can the New Testament be trusted? Has it been corrupted through time? Can we know what God has said? It should be obvious how important this topic is. This is especially so given the climate of society today and its attitudes toward the Bible. We wish this series to help everyone understand the process of the Bible's history as a document and why we can have confidence in its message. Near the end of the year we are planning to publish these twelve articles in book form (Kindle, Nook and old fashioned print and ink).

“The Bible is a product of man, my dear. Not of God. The Bible did not fall magically from the clouds. Man created it as a historical record of tumultuous times, and it has evolved through countless translations, additions, and revisions. History has never had a definitive version of the book.” These are the words of Sir Leigh Teabing, a fictional character in Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code. While media attention to the book and the 2006 movie based on it has died down, the skepticism western culture has toward the Biblical record abounds. This attitude has its origin in our adversary. Satan desires to deceive us into thinking our own personal will is to be the standard for life. If he can have success in planting seeds of doubt regarding the veracity of Scripture, there is no limit on how far he can go in pushing his agenda of turning the hearts of men and women away from God.

The original, handwritten twenty-seven books of the New Testament most likely disappeared within a few decades after being written. We are left with thousands of handwritten copies written in a variety of languages. Instead of being cause for alarm, the preservation of the New Testament is a living testimony to the unmatched power and providence of God.

How can we know what we read is an accurate representation of the original text? Could we have wound up with copies that do not resemble the original at all? Before answering those questions, there are some important basics we should go over.



Understanding Terminology

Greek manuscripts are the primary documents that determine the wording of the New Testament. These are divided into four groups:

· Papyri – these manuscripts are identified by the material they are made of. The papyrus manuscripts are among the most important when reconstructing the text of the New Testament. While the material on which they are written is valuable because of their rarity, the date that they were written is most important. The papyri are the earliest “direct witness to the New Testament autographs” (Comfort & Barret, 2001). Today, most are in fragments.

· Uncials and Minuscules – these are the writing styles of the documents. Uncials were written in all capital letters. Minuscules were written in a type of cursive.

· Lectionaries – these are manuscripts that are arranged for daily study and meditation.

New Testament manuscripts are usually found on vellum or parchment. The earliest were written on papyrus while the latest are written on paper. Generally speaking, if we were to list these groups out in chronological order, the earliest group is the papyri. The papyri are followed by uncials, minuscule, and finally, lectionaries. The earliest complete copies of the New Testament are Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. (“Codex” refers to the book form used exclusively by Christians for making copies of Biblical writings.) Both date to the early fourth century.

The earliest manuscripts on papyrus are divided into three primary groups: the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, the Chester Beatty/Michigan Papyri, and the Bodmer Papyri. In 1898, thousands of papyrus fragments were found in the ancient garbage dumps of Oxyrhynchus, Egypt. Many of them were secular, pertaining to business contracts, letters, and literature. But around 35 of them contain portions of the New Testament. The Beatty Papyri were purchased from an Egyptian dealer in 1934. In this collection, three are very early and contain a large portion of the New Testament. The Bodmer Papyri were purchased in Egypt during the 1950’s and 60’s. This collection contains one papyrus that dates to the second century, while others date to the late third or early fourth century.



The Number of New Testament Manuscripts Compared with Other Ancient Books

In terms of quantity, the New Testament is represented far more than any other piece of ancient literature. Consider the known manuscripts of four well known Greek and Roman works: Homer was the earliest and most popular author of the ancient Greek world. His book, The Illiad, dates to 750 BC. To date, 647 manuscripts of this book have been found. Only 190 contain a complete copy. When compared to other classical Greek writing, Homer’s work is an exception. Copies of his work are much more plentiful than other ancient books. For example, Caesar’s Gallic War, dates to 50 BC. Only 9-10 manuscripts exist with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War dates to 450 BC. Eight manuscripts have been found with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. (There are some fragments of this book that date to the time of Jesus.) Finally, Tacitus’ Histories was written in 100 AD. Only two manuscripts are available. One dates to 800 AD, the other to 1000 AD.

In light of this, the number of ancient writings containing the New Testament is staggering. To date, over 5800 Greek New Testament fragments have been found (Taylor, 2012). Over 10,000 Latin New Testament manuscripts dating from the 2nd to 16th century have been located. The earliest are in fragments that cover a substantial amount of the New Testament. Some manuscripts have also been found in a number of other languages, including Coptic, Syriac, Gothic, and Arabic. Taking all languages together, over 25,000 handwritten copies of the New Testament have been recovered. But there is more. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced by quotes from the ancient church fathers. “So extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament” (Metzger & Ehrman, 2005).

The number of manuscripts being found is continually growing. “Every decade and virtually every year new manuscripts are discovered. Meanwhile, the average classical author’s writings are found in about twenty extant manuscripts” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). The earliest manuscripts do not contain the entire New Testament. Some fragments contain just a verse or two, but still count as a manuscript. The average size of a New Testament manuscript is around 450 pages.



The Length of Time Between the Original Autographs and Earliest Copies of the New Testament

The older manuscripts are very important because there are fewer copies between them and the one first written. The span between the original writing and the earliest copy is minimal when compared to others in ancient writing. “We have copies commencing within a couple of generations from the writing of the originals, whereas in the case of other ancient texts, maybe five, eight, or ten centuries elapsed between the original and the earliest surviving copy,” (Strobel, 1998). By comparison, the average classical author has at least a 500-year gap between the writing of the original and the earliest copy (Slick).

Papyrus 52 (P52), which contains a small fragment of John’s gospel, (18.31-33, 37-38) is considered to be the earliest copy of New Testament text. Discovered in 1934 by C. H. Roberts, it is believed to have been copied no later than 150 AD but no earlier than 100 AD. “Nothing is unreasonable about assigning a date of 100-125 for P52. If John’s gospel was written in the 70’s or 80’s, we have a fragment 20-25 years removed form the autograph” (Comfort & Barret, 2001). Newly discovered fragments from Egypt have been recently found, one of which may date to the first century. The oldest piece contains verses from Mark’s gospel. The others, dating into the second century have portions of Luke’s gospel and letters from Paul. One fragment contains a sermon from Hebrews 11. The contents of these fragments are still being examined and subjected to dating methods. Scholars hope to publish their findings by late 2013 or early 2014 (Wallace, 2012).

There are 10-15 manuscripts written within the first 100 years of the completion of the New Testament. Some are fairly large fragments, containing significant portions of the gospels or the letters of Paul. When we go out two centuries from the original writings (300 AD), there are at least 48 manuscripts. At three centuries (400 AD), there are 69 copies.

Here is a chart detailing the earliest New Testament manuscripts found to date:

MANUSCRIPT​	PASSAGES​	DATE OF ORIGINAL​	DATE OF MANUSCRIPT​	APPROXIMATE TIME SPAN​
P52 (John Rylands Fragment)​	John 18.31-33; 37-38​	~96 AD​	~125 AD​	~29 years​
P90 (Oxyrhynchus)​	John 18.36-19.7​	~96 AD​	~150-200 AD​	~50-100 years​
P104 (Oxyrhynchus)​	Matthew 21.34-37, 43, 45​	~60-65 AD​	~150-200 AD​	~90-140 years​
P98 (IFAO)[1]​	Revelation 1.13-2.1​	~90 AD​	~150-200 AD​	~50-100 years​
P46 (Chester Beatty Papyrus)​	Romans 5.17-6.3, 5-14; 8.15-25, 27-35; 10.1-11.22, 24-33, 35; 16.1-23, 25-27; Hebrews; 1 & 2 Corinthians; Ephesians; Galatians; Philippians; Colossians; 1 Thessalonians 1.1, 9-10; 2.1-3; 5.5-9, 23-28​	50’s-70’s AD​	~200 AD​	~150 years​
P66 (Bodmer Papyrus)​	John 1.1-6.11, 6.35-14.26; fragment of 14.29-21.9​	70’s AD​	~200 AD​	~130 years​
P67 [2]​	Matthew 3.9, 15; 5.20-22; 25-28​	~60-65 AD​	~200 AD​	~140 years​

Determining Age and Examining Quality

Over the last 100 years, thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts have been found in countries all along the Mediterranean. The majority has come from Egypt. When looking at ancient texts, scholars begin by examining the manuscript’s age and quality.

Age

As stated before, the earlier the manuscript, the more valuable they are. If there are fewer copies between themselves and the originals, the potential for error is reduced. “The more direct pipeline a manuscript has to the original, the better are its chances of getting the wording right” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). How can we be sure of the age of ancient writing? Can we actually find conclusive evidence that proves their age?

First, we might think that scientific tests, examining archaeological evidence regarding the physical nature of the papyrus might be in order. But, such tests have been proven to be inaccurate. While external factors can help, most manuscripts cannot be dated this way because of the ambiguous circumstances (Comfort P. W., 2005). So, scholars are left with more subjective methods to date the ancient writings. The best way to date a manuscript is to examine the style of handwriting. Things are written differently generation to generation. The same is true today. Compare your handwriting with that from a century ago. You will see a distinct difference. While exact dates cannot be established, comparative morphology (a study of comparable handwriting styles) allows writings to be narrowed down to differing decades.

 

[gtopa1]

As for your "ahh" sacraments and Marian worship, we have this tidbit,

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book..” Revelation 22:18-19

So there is only one book in the Bible? Revelations? You sure about that???

Greg

 

[Meriweather]

Checkmate........

Except none have anything to do with John's Revelation...