Zone1 witnessing to a catholic

[Meriweather]

I can see in the both of you, that you have NOT read it,

Read it and studied it many times.

 

[gtopa1]

You are not being nearly as cute as you think you are, I merely offer a point from whence you can begin to see the fraud that the Roman church is, the majority of revelation deals specifically with that subject, you and your friend are not nearly as cute as you think you are, I can see in the both of you, that you have NOT read it, there is nothing, not one thing that would make me, if I was a practicing Catholic, happy written within that book!

Revelations is a cool book; I've read it several times. What did I get from it?? LOTS. There is a lesson for us all relating to OUR end at least; the end times stuff may be in our lifetime or it may not. That's not something I dwell on; I dwell on living as good a life as I can realising I am a miserable sinner.....good thing I'm a Catholic. OK; with Orthodox influences. Ever been to Greek Orthodox mass in English?? VERY SIMILAR to an RC Mass.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

When David's baby died, he said, "But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Am I able to bring him back at this point? I will go to him, but he cannot return to me!" (2 Samuel 12:23)

Also, in other scriptures the bible teaches that babies and young children do not yet understand how to reject the wrong and choose what is right, like Isaiah 7:16 and Deuteronomy 1:39, for example.

If those scriptures aren't enough for you, ask yourself... since a baby doesn't yet understand the concept of sin, do you really think that a God of love and justice would hold a baby accountable for something they don't even understand?




NO, I'm sorry, I hate to say this because you seem like a good guy, but what you just said goes against the Gospel. It is not about what WE do. It's not about "being a good person." It's not about our works. It is about what JESUS did for us.

We are saved by God's grace, through FAITH, and part of faith is understanding we are sinners who can't save ourselves. We have to simply surrender to God, fully, put our faith and trust in HIM. God knows our hearts... so when we truly do that, He saves us, we become born again, or "born from above."

Please read this:

"He saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit"

Titus 3:5

The "life lived" isn't just works; it is living in the FAITH; the works emanate from that. Faith without works is DEAD; see Pharisees for details. I suppose I'm talking about living out your faith IN the world without being OF it.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

Nope, infant baptism is flatly unbiblical. It doesn't matter what the RCC teaches. I'm sorry, I don't have the time to debate anymore here, but the RCC is wrong about numerous doctrines. You and I have already been through some of this before on other threads. I'll let someone else take over for now, because I really do have to sign off, real life stuff is calling.

"

infant baptism is flatly unbiblical. "......nope. I've supplied some reading on it. I accept that it is biblical as part of the Child's upbringing in the Faith. Of course without Confirmation; the mature acceptance of the Holy Spirit, it is a disrupted life..so I'll leave that one up to God to sort out.

Greg

 

[buttercup]

The "life lived" isn't just works; it is living in the FAITH; the works emanate from that. Faith without works is DEAD; see Pharisees for details. I suppose I'm talking about living out your faith IN the world without being OF it.

Greg

Well, before you said "That depends on the life lived." So it sounded like you were talking about works being what gives us eternal life...but if that's not what you meant, then good. Ok, like I said I gotta go.

 

[BreezeWood]

Please, I was a Jewish boy raised Roman Catholic, I attended 12 years of private Catholic schooling, I am well versed in the lies, among which are the so-called sacraments. I was not born knowing what I know, in point of fact I have always been at best, described as a Christian pole sitter, I am the last person on earth qualified to preach, and therefore I do not!

In the latter years I have come to know some very smart folk who are legitimate Christians, and I but acted upon their suggestions and actually read the book(bible)! Read the book, actually read the thing, start with the Revelation of John with particular attention to what Jesus Christ describes.

Then come back here and lecture us on the good works of Catholicism, here's a hint for you, nothing you do gets you across the finish line, no good work qualifies you, though keep to those works out of decency, there is only one way for any believer to an afterlife, belief in Jesus and his ministry, and full and total repentance, he is the sole intercessor period!

I brought up Fatima to make a specific point with you, it really happened, most of the so-called Marian visions are lies, some the Church of Rome runs with when convenient, some they do not, but Fatima actually happened, its likely that some 250,000 men, women, and children viewed it in some capacity, it happened. The very first time I looked upon that with a critical eye, was after having read a book by a giant of science named Jaqques Vallee, who catalogued such as a classic UFO encounter.

Yet Vallee went further, and this is the important part, he knew this thing has occurred, and that tens of thousands were deeply moved by it, that the Catholic Church of Rome authenticated it and sanctified it, but the problem with that, and which was noted by Vallee, was that the entity's(there were more than one)instructed the children to inform the adults that the Lady of Fatima wanted a shrine built, to herself! We have a word for such, that word is heresy....

I am not preaching to you, I am just far better read on the topic, that entity was NOT Mary, mother of Jesus, and you will find absolutely no place in the bible where Jesus instructs his disciples that he, and his earthly mother or father will be sharing the duties of acting as your intercessors with God, there is one one way to God, and it is not through that thing, or any Roman manufactured scam sacraments, the only way through the door(direct from Jesus lips)is through him and the grace he obtained for you, all other comers are going to hell no matter what!

the only way through the door(direct from Jesus lips)is through him and the grace he obtained for you, all other comers are going to hell no matter what!

the only source for your belief is from a book you happened to have read, irregardless the forgeries and fallacies ... were the c-bible to disappear so would your religious beliefs.

read the book - better, what is the religion of the scriptural desert religions.

 

[gtopa1]

Well, before you said "That depends on the life lived." So it sounded like you were talking about works being what gives us eternal life...but if that's not what you meant, then good. Ok, like I said I gotta go.

"Living in the Faith" is what I was thinking of; it's sort of the normal way I look at things.

All the best to you and yours.

Greg

 

[Meriweather]

Nope, infant baptism is flatly unbiblical. It doesn't matter what the RCC teaches

The Catholic Church teaches from the Bible and it is Biblical. Let's each tell the other what our faith teaches and leave it to the other to say what their faith teaches.

Neither of us has to agree on the other's denominational interpretation of baptismal verses in the Bible. Both stand on what they do as Biblical.

 

[Meriweather]

So it sounded like you were talking about works being what gives us eternal life...but if that's not what you meant, then good.

It is an example of what I talked about earlier--Kingdom living in the present. We do not wait until death to step into the Kingdom of God that Jesus spoke of. Remember, he said this Kingdom is at hand (i.e., with reach of everyone).

 

[BreezeWood]

there is not an archive of the material they used to write the c-bible for verification of the truths

• · He who does not know how to write supposes it to be no labor; but though on three fingers write, the whole body labors.
• · Writing bows one’s back, thrusts the ribs into one’s stomach, and fosters a general debility of the body.
• · As travelers rejoice to see their home country, so also is the end of a book to those who toil (in writing).
• · An Armenian copyist says in a Gospel that a heavy snowstorm was raging and that the scribe’s ink froze, his hand became numb, and the pen fell from his fingers!
• · Some manuscripts may end with gratitude: The end of the book; thanks be to God.

With so many different manuscripts, written by different people with varying educational levels, and speaking different languages, there are many textual variations. The original documents of the New Testament no longer exist and no two copies agree completely. As a result, the study of textual criticism has come about. It is the “study of the copies of any written document whose original is unknown or nonexistent in order to determine the exact wording of the original. Such a task is necessary for an extensive amount of literature, especially that which was written before the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The New Testament is no exception to this rule” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).

What about Variances in the Early Texts?
As we know it today, there are around 138,000 words in the Greek New Testament. There are literally hundreds of thousands of variants where there is not uniformity of wording. On average, for every word in the Greek New Testament, there are almost three variants. The large number is due to the large number of manuscripts. Are these differences capable in changing the meaning of the intent of the original authors? No. An overwhelming majority of alterations are accidental and trivial.
Textual differences are typically divided into four categories.

• · He who does not know how to write supposes it to be no labor; but though on three fingers write, the whole body labors.
  • · Spelling and Nonsense Errors. This is by far the largest of the categories and the majority of these are spelling differences that have no impact on the meaning of the text. For example, in the Greek, John is spelled two different ways. The same person is in view; but the difference is in whether the scribe decided to spell John using two “n’s” or one. Another common difference found in Greek manuscripts is similar to the two forms of the indefinite article in English: a or an. These variances are so insignificant that most textual critics ignore them. Scribes who were tired or inattentive often created “nonsense errors.” For example, Codex Washingtonianus contains an error where a scribe wrote the word and instead of the word Lord. In the Greek, the two words are very similar (kai and kurios) and the mistake probably happened due to mental fatigue. In the overall context, the usage of the word and does not change the meaning of the text.
  • · Minor changes and alterations that do not affect translation. This category consists of variations in the usage of a definite article with proper names. Sometimes Greek uses the definite article with proper names while English does not. For example, in Luke 2.16, some manuscripts identify Mary and Joseph as the Mary and the Joseph instead of just Mary and Joseph. In other manuscripts, the article was not used. Also, word-order differences account for many of the discrepancies. An example of this can be seen in a sentence such as “Jesus loves John.” “In Greek, that sentence can be expressed in at least sixteen different ways without affecting the basic sense” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012). Word order changes are frequent in the manuscripts, yet these do not affect the basic meaning of what is being said.
  • · Meaningful changes that are not “Viable.” One example is found in 1 Thessalonians 2.9. A late medieval manuscript (from the 13th century) uses the phrase “the gospel of Christ.” This is a meaningful change, but not viable because almost all of the other manuscripts use the term “the gospel of God.” Other examples are seen throughout the gospels as scribes often tried to harmonize the wording between the gospel accounts. When they did so, they “tended to add material to one Gospel rather than take away material from another” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).
  • · Meaningful and “Viable” Variants. This represents about 1 percent of all textual variants. In these cases, the difference in the manuscripts can affect the understanding of a passage. Daniel Wallace identifies three significant examples:
  • o Romans 5.1 – Some manuscripts read we have peace while others say let us have peace. In the original language, the difference in the word is found in one letter. “If we have peace is authentic, Paul is speaking about believer’s status with God; if let us have peace is authentic, the apostle is urging Christians to enjoy the experience of this harmony with God in their lives. As important as this textual problem is, neither variant contradicts any of the teachings of Scripture elsewhere, and both readings state something that is theologically sound,[3]” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012).
  • o Mark 16.9-10 and John 7.53-8.11 are omitted in the earliest manuscripts and do not fit well with the style of writing of the authors. Even if one were to take away these passages, no essential matters of doctrine are changed.
• What are we to make of these variants? Should our faith be shaken? Absolutely not. “For more than two centuries, most biblical scholars have declared that no essential affirmation has been affected by the variants” (Taylor, 2012). In their attempts to recover the originals, textual critics have recovered at least 95% of the inspired words. Some even go farther, placing the number as high as 99%. Scholars such as Philip Comfort have ascertained that while there are differing conclusions on some of the variants in the manuscripts, “this is, by no means, a large number… And this should not cause us to abandon the task of recovering the original wording of the New Testament. New insights have come and will keep coming, in the new form of actual documents, new methodologies, and new understandings” (Comfort P. W., 2005). Another scholar writes, “The verbal agreement between various New Testament manuscripts is closer than between many English translations of the New Testament and the percentage of variants in the New Testament is small…and no matter of doctrine hinges on a variant reading” (Wegner, 2006). Think about the first part of Wegner’s statement. There are thousands of Greek manuscripts available, coming from different times and places. They agree more often than our English translations! Amazing!
  
  Concluding Thoughts
  Even though the original autographs disappeared thousands of years ago, God has preserved His word. Over the course of history, has not God worked through human beings to accomplish His purposes? Arlandson (2007) makes a powerful comparison when referencing the writing of C.S. Lewis on miracles. “The moment (a miracle) enters (nature’s) realm, it obeys her laws. Miraculous wine will intoxicate, miraculous conception will lead to pregnancy, inspired books will suffer all the ordinary processes of textual corruption, and miraculous bread will be digested” (Lewis, 1947).
  Despite undergoing all the processes of time, the fact that the Biblical manuscripts have been preserved in the way they have should strengthen our faith. The ancient inspired writings are not alone - no text coming from the ancient world has the originals. It should humble us when we see how Scripture has been handed down through the generations. Many scribes spent countless hours copying and checking their work to ensure an accurate text for the generations that would come after them. Theirs was often a behind-the-scenes endeavor that garnered little attention. But, there is little doubt they understood the significance of the Word of God. Instead of having our faith shaken, we should be strengthened when we consider that Modern Greek texts are very close to the original.
  In the end, we simply need to fall back on faith. We can rest in confidence that our sovereign and powerful God not only inspired the Biblical writers, but He has also providentially overseen its preservation in such a way that the Bible we have today is reliable. It is nothing less than the infallible, inerrant Word of God Himself. What Isaiah said 2700 years ago will always ring true: The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever, Isaiah 40.8.
  

  The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts

  www.bible.ca

There are THOUSANDS of them. The Library at the Vatican is incredible; I asked to go in but...well...I was too dumb. lol​

Of course you could just go to the Library.

Vatican Library Collection and Secrets - What's inside?

What is the Vatican Library Collection? And what Vatican Secrets are being kept? Read on to check out how to get access to the Vatican Library here.

visitvatican.info

or "Virtually".....

DigiVatLib

digi.vatlib.it

PS: Problem copying the lot; y'all will just have to go to the site.......sorry 'bout that, Chief.

Greg

that post was suppose to make sense ... sorry, it failed -

where is the archive those that wrote the c-bible used to compile their book - what happened to those documents, much less their original c-bile that likewise does not exist.

do any christians know for a fact what they believe is anything but a madeup story ... recorded history is not kind for an affirmative answer.

 

[BreezeWood]

The start...I hope.


[From The Editors: This article is one of a series we are running this year. The 2013 series is called "The Integrity of the New Testament" and deals with textual criticism. Can the New Testament be trusted? Has it been corrupted through time? Can we know what God has said? It should be obvious how important this topic is. This is especially so given the climate of society today and its attitudes toward the Bible. We wish this series to help everyone understand the process of the Bible's history as a document and why we can have confidence in its message. Near the end of the year we are planning to publish these twelve articles in book form (Kindle, Nook and old fashioned print and ink).

“The Bible is a product of man, my dear. Not of God. The Bible did not fall magically from the clouds. Man created it as a historical record of tumultuous times, and it has evolved through countless translations, additions, and revisions. History has never had a definitive version of the book.” These are the words of Sir Leigh Teabing, a fictional character in Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code. While media attention to the book and the 2006 movie based on it has died down, the skepticism western culture has toward the Biblical record abounds. This attitude has its origin in our adversary. Satan desires to deceive us into thinking our own personal will is to be the standard for life. If he can have success in planting seeds of doubt regarding the veracity of Scripture, there is no limit on how far he can go in pushing his agenda of turning the hearts of men and women away from God.

The original, handwritten twenty-seven books of the New Testament most likely disappeared within a few decades after being written. We are left with thousands of handwritten copies written in a variety of languages. Instead of being cause for alarm, the preservation of the New Testament is a living testimony to the unmatched power and providence of God.

How can we know what we read is an accurate representation of the original text? Could we have wound up with copies that do not resemble the original at all? Before answering those questions, there are some important basics we should go over.



Understanding Terminology

Greek manuscripts are the primary documents that determine the wording of the New Testament. These are divided into four groups:

· Papyri – these manuscripts are identified by the material they are made of. The papyrus manuscripts are among the most important when reconstructing the text of the New Testament. While the material on which they are written is valuable because of their rarity, the date that they were written is most important. The papyri are the earliest “direct witness to the New Testament autographs” (Comfort & Barret, 2001). Today, most are in fragments.

· Uncials and Minuscules – these are the writing styles of the documents. Uncials were written in all capital letters. Minuscules were written in a type of cursive.

· Lectionaries – these are manuscripts that are arranged for daily study and meditation.

New Testament manuscripts are usually found on vellum or parchment. The earliest were written on papyrus while the latest are written on paper. Generally speaking, if we were to list these groups out in chronological order, the earliest group is the papyri. The papyri are followed by uncials, minuscule, and finally, lectionaries. The earliest complete copies of the New Testament are Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. (“Codex” refers to the book form used exclusively by Christians for making copies of Biblical writings.) Both date to the early fourth century.

The earliest manuscripts on papyrus are divided into three primary groups: the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, the Chester Beatty/Michigan Papyri, and the Bodmer Papyri. In 1898, thousands of papyrus fragments were found in the ancient garbage dumps of Oxyrhynchus, Egypt. Many of them were secular, pertaining to business contracts, letters, and literature. But around 35 of them contain portions of the New Testament. The Beatty Papyri were purchased from an Egyptian dealer in 1934. In this collection, three are very early and contain a large portion of the New Testament. The Bodmer Papyri were purchased in Egypt during the 1950’s and 60’s. This collection contains one papyrus that dates to the second century, while others date to the late third or early fourth century.



The Number of New Testament Manuscripts Compared with Other Ancient Books

In terms of quantity, the New Testament is represented far more than any other piece of ancient literature. Consider the known manuscripts of four well known Greek and Roman works: Homer was the earliest and most popular author of the ancient Greek world. His book, The Illiad, dates to 750 BC. To date, 647 manuscripts of this book have been found. Only 190 contain a complete copy. When compared to other classical Greek writing, Homer’s work is an exception. Copies of his work are much more plentiful than other ancient books. For example, Caesar’s Gallic War, dates to 50 BC. Only 9-10 manuscripts exist with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War dates to 450 BC. Eight manuscripts have been found with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. (There are some fragments of this book that date to the time of Jesus.) Finally, Tacitus’ Histories was written in 100 AD. Only two manuscripts are available. One dates to 800 AD, the other to 1000 AD.

In light of this, the number of ancient writings containing the New Testament is staggering. To date, over 5800 Greek New Testament fragments have been found (Taylor, 2012). Over 10,000 Latin New Testament manuscripts dating from the 2nd to 16th century have been located. The earliest are in fragments that cover a substantial amount of the New Testament. Some manuscripts have also been found in a number of other languages, including Coptic, Syriac, Gothic, and Arabic. Taking all languages together, over 25,000 handwritten copies of the New Testament have been recovered. But there is more. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced by quotes from the ancient church fathers. “So extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament” (Metzger & Ehrman, 2005).

The number of manuscripts being found is continually growing. “Every decade and virtually every year new manuscripts are discovered. Meanwhile, the average classical author’s writings are found in about twenty extant manuscripts” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). The earliest manuscripts do not contain the entire New Testament. Some fragments contain just a verse or two, but still count as a manuscript. The average size of a New Testament manuscript is around 450 pages.



The Length of Time Between the Original Autographs and Earliest Copies of the New Testament

The older manuscripts are very important because there are fewer copies between them and the one first written. The span between the original writing and the earliest copy is minimal when compared to others in ancient writing. “We have copies commencing within a couple of generations from the writing of the originals, whereas in the case of other ancient texts, maybe five, eight, or ten centuries elapsed between the original and the earliest surviving copy,” (Strobel, 1998). By comparison, the average classical author has at least a 500-year gap between the writing of the original and the earliest copy (Slick).

Papyrus 52 (P52), which contains a small fragment of John’s gospel, (18.31-33, 37-38) is considered to be the earliest copy of New Testament text. Discovered in 1934 by C. H. Roberts, it is believed to have been copied no later than 150 AD but no earlier than 100 AD. “Nothing is unreasonable about assigning a date of 100-125 for P52. If John’s gospel was written in the 70’s or 80’s, we have a fragment 20-25 years removed form the autograph” (Comfort & Barret, 2001). Newly discovered fragments from Egypt have been recently found, one of which may date to the first century. The oldest piece contains verses from Mark’s gospel. The others, dating into the second century have portions of Luke’s gospel and letters from Paul. One fragment contains a sermon from Hebrews 11. The contents of these fragments are still being examined and subjected to dating methods. Scholars hope to publish their findings by late 2013 or early 2014 (Wallace, 2012).

There are 10-15 manuscripts written within the first 100 years of the completion of the New Testament. Some are fairly large fragments, containing significant portions of the gospels or the letters of Paul. When we go out two centuries from the original writings (300 AD), there are at least 48 manuscripts. At three centuries (400 AD), there are 69 copies.

Here is a chart detailing the earliest New Testament manuscripts found to date:

​

MANUSCRIPT​	PASSAGES​	DATE OF ORIGINAL​	DATE OF MANUSCRIPT​	APPROXIMATE TIME SPAN​
P52 (John Rylands Fragment)​	John 18.31-33; 37-38​	~96 AD​	~125 AD​	~29 years​
P90 (Oxyrhynchus)​	John 18.36-19.7​	~96 AD​	~150-200 AD​	~50-100 years​
P104 (Oxyrhynchus)​	Matthew 21.34-37, 43, 45​	~60-65 AD​	~150-200 AD​	~90-140 years​
P98 (IFAO)[1]​	Revelation 1.13-2.1​	~90 AD​	~150-200 AD​	~50-100 years​
P46 (Chester Beatty Papyrus)​	Romans 5.17-6.3, 5-14; 8.15-25, 27-35; 10.1-11.22, 24-33, 35; 16.1-23, 25-27; Hebrews; 1 & 2 Corinthians; Ephesians; Galatians; Philippians; Colossians; 1 Thessalonians 1.1, 9-10; 2.1-3; 5.5-9, 23-28​	50’s-70’s AD​	~200 AD​	~150 years​
P66 (Bodmer Papyrus)​	John 1.1-6.11, 6.35-14.26; fragment of 14.29-21.9​	70’s AD​	~200 AD​	~130 years​
P67 [2]​	Matthew 3.9, 15; 5.20-22; 25-28​	~60-65 AD​	~200 AD​	~140 years​

Determining Age and Examining Quality

Over the last 100 years, thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts have been found in countries all along the Mediterranean. The majority has come from Egypt. When looking at ancient texts, scholars begin by examining the manuscript’s age and quality.

Age

As stated before, the earlier the manuscript, the more valuable they are. If there are fewer copies between themselves and the originals, the potential for error is reduced. “The more direct pipeline a manuscript has to the original, the better are its chances of getting the wording right” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). How can we be sure of the age of ancient writing? Can we actually find conclusive evidence that proves their age?

First, we might think that scientific tests, examining archaeological evidence regarding the physical nature of the papyrus might be in order. But, such tests have been proven to be inaccurate. While external factors can help, most manuscripts cannot be dated this way because of the ambiguous circumstances (Comfort P. W., 2005). So, scholars are left with more subjective methods to date the ancient writings. The best way to date a manuscript is to examine the style of handwriting. Things are written differently generation to generation. The same is true today. Compare your handwriting with that from a century ago. You will see a distinct difference. While exact dates cannot be established, comparative morphology (a study of comparable handwriting styles) allows writings to be narrowed down to differing decades.

The Bible did not fall magically from the clouds.

tell all, gto where the etched tablets from the heavens w/ 10 commandments are located, claimed by moses ...

* that never existed.

 

[BreezeWood]

Study Jesus' life. Every single Sacrament is based on what he did or what he taught. All seven.

Baptism - What he did, what he commanded
Reconciliation/Repentance - What he did, what he taught, what he said
Holy Eucharist - What he did, what he commanded
Confirmation - What he instructed; who he sent
Matrimony - What he taught
Holy Orders - Who he appointed to a special priesthood
Sacrament of the Sick - What he did, what he instructed

Mary is honored and respected for the part she played in the life of Christ. That does not rise to worship and never has, never will--except in the imaginations of some non-Catholic Christians. Therefore, the accusation will continue. Shrug. We're used to it.

Matrimony - What he taught

you are a joke - jesus never endorsed or was ever monogamous nor the two marys or joseph - non were ever married a clear distinction of the 1st century events ... monogamy, paterfamilias is one of the great cancers of the desert religions.

 

[gtopa1]

that post was suppose to make sense ... sorry, it failed -

where is the archive those that wrote the c-bible used to compile their book - what happened to those documents, much less their original c-bile that likewise does not exist.

do any christians know for a fact what they believe is anything but a madeup story ... recorded history is not kind for an affirmative answer.

The originals wore out but were copied and quoted often. You didn't read it, did you???

The Original Tablets: Moses broke them when he saw the Idol calf and dancing around it.

The SECOND set; probably captured by an enemy or destroyed during a war...dunno exactly

The Arc of the Covenant: Babylonians nicked it from The Temple probably.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

you are a joke - jesus never endorsed or was ever monogamous nor the two marys or joseph - non were ever married a clear distinction of the 1st century events ... monogamy, paterfamilias is one of the great cancers of the desert religions.

Matthew 19:4-6, “And He answered and said, ‘Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.’”

• Matthew 19:9, “He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
• Mark 10:11-12, “And He said to them, ‘Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.’”

Something along those lines??

Greg

 

[theHawk]

"He saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit"

He saved us through his sacrifice, and his mercy in forgiving us for our sins. ”Works” are still important because it proves we believe in Him and act on it.

 

[theHawk]

you are a joke - jesus never endorsed or was ever monogamous nor the two marys or joseph - non were ever married a clear distinction of the 1st century events ... monogamy, paterfamilias is one of the great cancers of the desert religions.

LOL where do you get this crap?

 

[BS Filter]

He saved us through his sacrifice, and his mercy in forgiving us for our sins. ”Works” are still important because it proves we believe in Him and act on it.

Agree. Here's a powerful verse. We are saved when we believe. Only God knows out heart.
John 5:24.

 

[ninja007]

As for your "ahh" sacraments and Marian worship, we have this tidbit,

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book..” Revelation 22:18-19

Merriweather is on her way to hell judging by her posts.i used to debate her for years on the Sean hannity website.

 

[onefour1]

It is true that we are not saved by our works, or in other words, it is not our works that have the power to save us. However, the Lord requires that we do good works as part of exercising faith. Faith without works is dead.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

It is through faith which includes works that we are saved by grace. Jesus requires that we have faith which includes good works before he will grant his saving grace to save us. We are saved by grace but we are required to exercise works of faith to obtain that grace. For example, we are required to repent of our sins which is a work of faith before the Lord will grant his grace and forgive us.

 

[buttercup]

He saved us through his sacrifice, and his mercy in forgiving us for our sins. ”Works” are still important because it proves we believe in Him and act on it.

Those weren't my words that you quoted, that was Titus 3:5. Of course He saved us through his sacrifice and mercy. That's basically what the scripture I posted said. So I'm not sure what you disagreed with?