You People Who Think Separation of Church and State is Possible.......How Do You Reconcile Abortion??

[Mashmont]

Yes, it is.

You'll say the most ridiculous idiotic falsehood just to troll a thread. Obviously expelling the body of an already-dead child is not what we're talking about when we refer to abortion.

 

[Canon Shooter]

Which Catholic nation is doing that? Besides none.

What Catholic nations are there?

The Vatican?

I said that would happen here, not that it's happening elsewhere, and I believe that zealots likte you would strive for that.

What would you do in your fantasy little christian nation to those people who denounce christianity and refuse to practice your religion in lieu of their own?

 

[WinterBorn]

OK, so you're for that. Excellent start.
Winterborn believes we should allow faiths to put religious displays in the public square, people.

Not what I said, at all. I think none should be there. But if you have one, you must have access for all.

 

[WinterBorn]

Which Catholic nation is doing that? Besides none.
We already know atheist nations killed 150 million in the last century and are CURRENTLY killing and imprisoning people who challenge their atheism today.

So you are saying atheists nations kill those who oppose atheism. That is just more proof that we are not an atheist nation. Thanks for making my point.

 

[WinterBorn]

You'll say the most ridiculous idiotic falsehood just to troll a thread. Obviously expelling the body of an already-dead child is not what we're talking about when we refer to abortion.

Really? According to whom? The procedure is not allowed in many states because it IS abortion. The mother must wait for her body to do it.

Also, an ectopic pregnancy, if not aborted, will likely kill the mother. And the fetus has no chance of developing to term.

 

[Foxfyre]

Right. I said the framers erred when they said the state couldn't back a religions, because they backed the religion of atheism in their notion of separation of church and state. The framers should have said we are a Christian nation, preferably a Catholic nation. That would have saved SO much strife. We wouldn't be having this abortion and gay marriage stuff today. America most decidely should NOT be an atheist country.

No. Not one embraced atheism in government, not a single one. But they did back the concept that the federal government would have no say in whether a person was a Christian, Jew, Atheist or whatever. There is NOTHING in the Constitution supporting separation of Church and State other than no religious test will be used to establish qualifications for federal office or appointment, i.e. no religious power will have any more say in what the government will be than any other citizens, and the federal government will not dictate any religious label or belief or interfere with anybody's exercise of their religion. There was no rule or implication that Congress itself could not be as religious as it chose to be or exercise its religion however or that the religious could not petition their government for what they hoped would be law just as other citizens can do.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You People Who Think Separation of Church and State is Possible

‘You people’ as in the Founders of the country and Framers of the Constitution.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Therefore abortion and gay marriage cannot be reconciled with separation of church and state without creating an atheist state.

Wrong.

Recognizing a woman’s right to privacy and the equal protection rights of gay Americans to marry is very much consistent with the Framers’ mandate that church and state remain separate.

Religious dogma hostile to the right to privacy has no place in secular law.

Religious dogma hostile to gay Americans has no place in secular law.

The doctrine of separation of church and state ensures that subjective religious dogma is not codified in secular law.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Violating the teachings of most Christians and all Catholics violates separation of church and state, because it favors atheism.

Wrong.

Recognizing a woman’s right to privacy and the equal protection rights of gay Americans to marry doesn’t violate the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment.

Government is not compelling Christians to have abortions or Catholics to allow same-sex couples to marry in the Catholic Church.

Government is not interfering with Christians to practice their beliefs; Christians are at liberty to oppose abortion and to not accommodate same-sex marriage in their churches.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Separation of Church and State isn't in the Constitution.

Actually it is.

It can be found here in the Constitution:

“The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."

Everson v. Board of Education (1947)

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Is that what we should tell you people pushing atheism?

No one is ‘pushing atheism’ whatever that’s supposed to mean.

Following the Framers’ mandate that church and state remain separate, following First Amendment jurisprudence prohibiting government entanglement, promotion, or establishment of religion, is not to ‘push atheism.’

Indeed, the doctrine of separation of church and state and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment safeguard religious liberty and expression.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

When was the last time we saw an atheist prosletyzing? Five seconds ago. On here. Or turn on the news. Anytime. All the time.

Proselytizing is the sole purview of theists.

Following the Framers’ mandate that church and state remain separate is not ‘proselytizing.’

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Excellent thread? I recall your call for the US to formally declare itself a Christian nation being soundly beaten down by the overwhelming majority of poster who spoke on that thread. And people who are normally diametrically opposed to each other on these forums agreed that the idea is garbage.

But your ego is in charge of much of your posting.

Unfortunately, the OP is far from alone.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The purpose of the constitution is to limit the power of GOVERNMENT --nothing/no one else

In the case of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, limit the power of government to promote, favor, or entangle itself with religion – such as prohibiting government from placing the 10 commandments on public/government property.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

What is the secular position on abortion?

There is no ‘secular position’ on abortion – that’s nonsense.

There are atheists who oppose abortion and support its being ‘banned.’

There are Christians who support a woman’s right to privacy and oppose abortion being ‘banned.’

 

[ClaireH]

You people might remember my excellent thread calling for the US to become a Christian Nation It’s Time to Formally Declare America A Christian Nation. In it, I made the airtight case that separation of church and state is impossible, has never happened, and cannot ever happen, and should be amended out of the Constitution. Let's face it. The framers made a mistake, just like they did in calling blacks 3/5 human.

Separation of Church and state is possible with most laws: No littering, no running a red light, etc. But there are some laws, the most important ones, where separation is impossible without creating an atheist state. In order to have actual separation of church and state, you have to have laws which the Catholic Church and other Christians can't follow in good conscience. In other words, atheist laws. Therefore abortion and gay marriage cannot be reconciled with separation of church and state without creating an atheist state. Leftist atheists say the current reversal of Roe v Wade violates separation of church and state because it pushes religious values. I say allowing abortion makes the state tantamount to an atheist state.

I would also add the Supreme Court declared atheism a religion in 1961, so why are we favoring the religion of atheism over the Christian religions? Again, separation of church and state is impossible, so let's scrap it and done with it.

I challenge anyone in the forum who claim to want separation of church and state (probably most people) tp reconcile the issues of abortion and gay marriage with the First Amendment without promoting the religion of atheism. I guarantee no one will be able to do it.

The current pro abortion statistic does not seem to be accurate in light of comparison with similar surveys of recent years. The current spewers of statistics (Pew and others) have upped the percentage to give the appearance of public support for legalized abortions, used mostly as a birth control option in the states.

Where are the uniformed women living in 2022!? Mostly in DC! Around 49% out of 1000 pregnancies are aborted! Why are the people in Washington DC accepting these ludicrous standards? Assuming it’s due to lack of birth control and ignorance, why are civil servants not effectively changing this situation? Do DCers consider abortions to be an economic pay off to their area because of this almost 50% reduction in births? In certain circles, it is considered quite evil to keep poverty in check this way… to kill the undesirables. I have seen only one poster confirm that they were OK with that, but no doubt there are more.

My main observation, the pro-abort 2022 support (stated to be around 60 plus percent) is inflated, thus a sham. Check out 2018, 2019 and 2020 polls- hardly comparable to what they’re (Pew, affiliates, and outliers) saying in 2022.

Pew: “In our most recent survey, 61% of U.S. adults say abortion should be legal all or most of the time, while 37% say it should be illegal all or most of the time.” BS.

Abortion support by party and level of legalization U.S. 2024 | Statista

It is perhaps no surprise that adults in the United States who identify as Democrats are far more likely to favor the legalization of abortion, with 42 percent of Democrats surveyed in 2024 supporting the legalization of abortion under any circumstance.

www.statista.com

Abortion support by age and level of legalization U.S. 2023 | Statista

Younger adults in the United States are far more likely to support the legalization of abortion, with a 2023 survey finding that 18 percent of respondents aged between 18 and 29 years favored the legalization of abortion under any circumstance.

www.statista.com

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

People who attend a church have every right to participate in how government functions every bit as much as the religion of Atheism. Deal with it

Atheism isn’t a ‘religion.’

And no one takes issue with theists participating in government, provided they understand that government is secular and not to be used to compel adherence to religious dogma:

“The Constitution mandates that the government remain secular, rather than affiliating itself with religious beliefs or institutions, precisely in order to avoid discriminating against citizens on the basis of their religious faiths. Thus, the claim that prohibiting government from celebrating Christmas as a religious holiday discriminates against Christians in favor of nonadherents must fail, since it contradicts the fundamental premise of the Establishment Clause itself.”

Allegheny County v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989)

County of Allegheny v. ACLU: The Establishment Clause prohibits placing religious symbols on public property if it results in promoting religion.

supreme.justia.com

 

[ClaireH]

The founders had it right to create the separation of powers between the church and state. Some historians claim that was to protect the church from the state, while other historians state the opposite, that it was to protect the state from the church. Either way, it was a good safety feature in protecting human rights from either the abuses of the government or from religious leaders in power. Power has a way of decaying social morals and humans are imperfect creatures to say the least.

 

[WinterBorn]

Unfortunately, the OP is far from alone.

But he is certainly in the minority, even on this site.

 

[dblack]

Actually, no. I state truth. Those who hate the truth are easily triggered into ranting profanity as you are. It's very similar to putting disinfectant on a pustule. They scream like hell.

We were talking about your need for negative attention. Where does it come from?