Abortion as Murder.

[Dr Grump]

and we're never going to stop people from shooting, stabbing and robbing each other either... maybe we should just throw out all laws.

yet we have a constitutional right to control our own bodies...

or do constitutional rights only matter when they protect things that rightwingnuts like?

you have no constitutional right to commit murder. You can use your body (control it) to bash your kids with a hammer, but you can no more bash your kids in the head with a hammer than you can kill a viable fetus. Both are protected persons, but only the ones that are already born get justice. When the SCOTUS reccognized a states interst in protecting the lives of the unborn once they were "viable" they in effect made them persons. The state has no interest in protecting the lives of non-person human beings or lumps of flesh. That is what the law actually is, but prosecutors will not enforce it.

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

 

[BenNatuf]

really? interesting the supreme court didn't see it that way.

so stay out of other people's bedrooms and bodies.

thanks!

have you ever actually read Roe or Casey? There is no unfettered right to abortion. It can be restricted or even PUNISHED after viability. It should be, just like any other murder.

Actually Roe legalized it till the due date, the reason this doctor has the charges on him, is the method of murder he used. Partial Birth abortion was banned under Bush.

Thats why I said it "can" be under Roe. When the court ruled on Roe they set up the premise of viability and declared states could act to protect viable unborn children. Yes, the states have to either enact laws to do that or choose to enforce the ones already on the books... like murder. But the point was, they can

 

[Dr Grump]

Either human life is to be respected or not, I say it is at what ever stage of development the person is in. Like I said here in the US slaves were considered the property of other people as well and it was perfectly legal to kill what you owned, it was wrong then and it is wrong now.[/QUOTE]

A foetus is not a human life. Don't believe me? Take a 3 month foetus out of a woman's body and watch it grow...oh, it won't. Why? Because it is not a human body.

Let us not forget, your opinion is coloured by your religion. If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one if you get knocked up unexpectedly.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

yet we have a constitutional right to control our own bodies...

or do constitutional rights only matter when they protect things that rightwingnuts like?

you have no constitutional right to commit murder. You can use your body (control it) to bash your kids with a hammer, but you can no more bash your kids in the head with a hammer than you can kill a viable fetus. Both are protected persons, but only the ones that are already born get justice. When the SCOTUS reccognized a states interst in protecting the lives of the unborn once they were "viable" they in effect made them persons. The state has no interest in protecting the lives of non-person human beings or lumps of flesh. That is what the law actually is, but prosecutors will not enforce it.

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

Yes it is.

 

[Dr Grump]

have you ever actually read Roe or Casey? There is no unfettered right to abortion. It can be restricted or even PUNISHED after viability. It should be, just like any other murder.

Actually Roe legalized it till the due date, the reason this doctor has the charges on him, is the method of murder he used. Partial Birth abortion was banned under Bush.

Thats why I said it "can" be under Roe. When the court ruled on Roe they set up the premise of viability and declared states could act to protect viable unborn children. Yes, the states have to either enact laws to do that or choose to enforce the ones already on the books... like murder. But the point was, they can

Fed law out trumps state law....shrug....

 

[BenNatuf]

yet we have a constitutional right to control our own bodies...

or do constitutional rights only matter when they protect things that rightwingnuts like?

you have no constitutional right to commit murder. You can use your body (control it) to bash your kids with a hammer, but you can no more bash your kids in the head with a hammer than you can kill a viable fetus. Both are protected persons, but only the ones that are already born get justice. When the SCOTUS reccognized a states interst in protecting the lives of the unborn once they were "viable" they in effect made them persons. The state has no interest in protecting the lives of non-person human beings or lumps of flesh. That is what the law actually is, but prosecutors will not enforce it.

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

LOL, is that what you call debate? Yes, abortion can be murder. Its simply a matter of will on the part of the state. So far, no state seems willing to enforce their statutes against killing a person unless that person is bnorn, but they could, and Roe iss what makes it possible.

 

[Dr Grump]

you have no constitutional right to commit murder. You can use your body (control it) to bash your kids with a hammer, but you can no more bash your kids in the head with a hammer than you can kill a viable fetus. Both are protected persons, but only the ones that are already born get justice. When the SCOTUS reccognized a states interst in protecting the lives of the unborn once they were "viable" they in effect made them persons. The state has no interest in protecting the lives of non-person human beings or lumps of flesh. That is what the law actually is, but prosecutors will not enforce it.

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

Yes it is.

Please post links to drs who have been arrested for murder after performing abortions....

 

[jillian]

you have no constitutional right to commit murder. You can use your body (control it) to bash your kids with a hammer, but you can no more bash your kids in the head with a hammer than you can kill a viable fetus. Both are protected persons, but only the ones that are already born get justice. When the SCOTUS reccognized a states interst in protecting the lives of the unborn once they were "viable" they in effect made them persons. The state has no interest in protecting the lives of non-person human beings or lumps of flesh. That is what the law actually is, but prosecutors will not enforce it.

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

Yes it is.

no. it isn't. not every killing is murder. murder is defined by statute.

so once again, you're wrong.

 

[BenNatuf]

A foetus is not a human life. Don't believe me? Take a 3 month foetus out of a woman's body and watch it grow...oh, it won't. Why? Because it is not a human body.

Let us not forget, your opinion is coloured by your religion. If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one if you get knocked up unexpectedly.

A fetus most certainly is a human life, there is nothing else it can be. medical science has progressed to the point where a 4.5 month old fetus with proper medical care is viable, and it is therefore, according to the law, a person the state has an interest in protecting. Thats what Roe says.

BTW, people opinions are colored by a lot of things, some by religion, some by some other philosophy and still others by their ignorance of facts.

 

[Dr Grump]

you have no constitutional right to commit murder. You can use your body (control it) to bash your kids with a hammer, but you can no more bash your kids in the head with a hammer than you can kill a viable fetus. Both are protected persons, but only the ones that are already born get justice. When the SCOTUS reccognized a states interst in protecting the lives of the unborn once they were "viable" they in effect made them persons. The state has no interest in protecting the lives of non-person human beings or lumps of flesh. That is what the law actually is, but prosecutors will not enforce it.

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

LOL, is that what you call debate? Yes, abortion can be murder. Its simply a matter of will on the part of the state. So far, no state seems willing to enforce their statutes against killing a person unless that person is bnorn, but they could, and Roe iss what makes it possible.

Well, not so much lack of debate. Let's put it this way, I've been on messageboards coming up ten years, on this one five. I've had many indepth discussions on boards about abortion.

What it comes down to is this. Roe vs Wade supercedes anything on state statutes. Yes, partial birth abortion is illegal under certain circumstances. That's what it comes down to. If you want to go down the moral path, then that is another argument. Legally abortion is legal and not murder as defined by law.

 

[BenNatuf]

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

Yes it is.

no. it isn't. not every killing is murder. murder is defined by statute.

so once again, you're wrong.

perhaps you should read a statute? Murder is the unlawful killing of another person. Once a fetus is viable it is a person, that is what Roe determined. This person has the same right to not be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process as any other person. There are no seperate classes of persons under the law. has something to do with that whole "equal treatment" thingy. A viable unborn child has the same right to be protected by the laws against murder as any other person

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

Yes it is.

no. it isn't. not every killing is murder. murder is defined by statute.

so once again, you're wrong.

I am right and one day the so-called terroristic slaughter that is legal will be changed Like what Hitler got away with it will be exposed and stopped, just because it is legal to murder in different country does not make it no longer murder.

 

[jillian]

Yes it is.

no. it isn't. not every killing is murder. murder is defined by statute.

so once again, you're wrong.

I am right and one day the so-called terroristic slaughter that is legal will be changed Like what Hitler got away with it will be exposed and stopped, just because it is legal to murder in different country does not make it no longer murder.

why do religious zealots feel the need to ram their beliefs down everyone else's throats?

 

[BenNatuf]

Actually Roe legalized it till the due date, the reason this doctor has the charges on him, is the method of murder he used. Partial Birth abortion was banned under Bush.

Thats why I said it "can" be under Roe. When the court ruled on Roe they set up the premise of viability and declared states could act to protect viable unborn children. Yes, the states have to either enact laws to do that or choose to enforce the ones already on the books... like murder. But the point was, they can

Fed law out trumps state law....shrug....

Are you always this obtuse? Of course it does, and it is FEDERAL law as defined by ROE that states that the states have an interest in protecting the LIFE of a viable fetus. What laws they pass or enforce to do so is their business.

 

[BenNatuf]

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

Yes it is.

Please post links to drs who have been arrested for murder after performing abortions....

Logical falacy. A failure to enforce the law does not make it not the law.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

no. it isn't. not every killing is murder. murder is defined by statute.

so once again, you're wrong.

I am right and one day the so-called terroristic slaughter that is legal will be changed Like what Hitler got away with it will be exposed and stopped, just because it is legal to murder in different country does not make it no longer murder.

why do religious zealots feel the need to ram their beliefs down everyone else's throats?

Why do secular humanists feel the need to murder whom they consider undesirables?

 

[jillian]

I am right and one day the so-called terroristic slaughter that is legal will be changed Like what Hitler got away with it will be exposed and stopped, just because it is legal to murder in different country does not make it no longer murder.

why do religious zealots feel the need to ram their beliefs down everyone else's throats?

Why do secular humanists feel the need to murder whom they consider undesirables?

who says i'm a "secular humanist". nutter?

you know, i've never met anyone else whose moral judgment i trusted more than my own...
govern your own life.

stay out of everyone else's.

because you're not pro life.... you're pro birth.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

why do religious zealots feel the need to ram their beliefs down everyone else's throats?

Why do secular humanists feel the need to murder whom they consider undesirables?

who says i'm a "secular humanist". nutter?

you know, i've never met anyone else whose moral judgment i trusted more than my own...
govern your own life.

stay out of everyone else's.

because you're not pro life.... you're pro birth.

I am pro-life, I see that in order to argue it you have to call names like "nutter", tell me you support women killing their own children, so exactly what impact do you feel your name calling is going to have on me?

 

[jillian]

Why do secular humanists feel the need to murder whom they consider undesirables?

who says i'm a "secular humanist". nutter?

you know, i've never met anyone else whose moral judgment i trusted more than my own...
govern your own life.

stay out of everyone else's.

because you're not pro life.... you're pro birth.

I am pro-life, I see that in order to argue it you have to call names like "nutter", tell me you support women killing their own children, so exactly what impact do you feel your name calling is going to have on me?

is there some reason you feel the need to illustrate your posts?

you're offended by "nutter"? too bad. i'm offended by being told i sanction murder by some loony toon who wants to infringe on our constitutional rights because she's a religious zealot.

 

[BenNatuf]

Abortion is no murder. End of argument....

LOL, is that what you call debate? Yes, abortion can be murder. Its simply a matter of will on the part of the state. So far, no state seems willing to enforce their statutes against killing a person unless that person is bnorn, but they could, and Roe iss what makes it possible.

Well, not so much lack of debate. Let's put it this way, I've been on messageboards coming up ten years, on this one five. I've had many indepth discussions on boards about abortion.

What it comes down to is this. Roe vs Wade supercedes anything on state statutes. Yes, partial birth abortion is illegal under certain circumstances. That's what it comes down to. If you want to go down the moral path, then that is another argument. Legally abortion is legal and not murder as defined by law.

that is false.

legally abortion is murder, its just not enforced. Roe is the law, yes?

Roe determined that the states have an interest in protecting the life of viable fetus'. The state has no interest in protecting the "life" of unliving flesh. The states interest is determined by its DUTY to not deprive any PERSON of LIFE without due process of law. Without that interest the state has none. Therefore, for legal purposes a viable fetus is a person.

Are there any classes of persons in the constitution for whom equal treatment and due process do not apply?

Are the persons in your state protected against murder by the law?

Are they receptive of what justice the law will alllow in the event a crime is committed against them?

are murderers who break that law punished?

Abortion of a viable fetus is murder as defined by the law, its just unenforced.