Zone1 Are all people equally valuable?

[Orangecat]

Are all people equally valuable?​

It depends on what you value. Regardless, I’d say no.

 

[sparky]

You are likely correct about MOST religions, but the True Religion that Christ gave us does not at all teach anyone to hate. Like I said, I hate what people say.. I hate their arrogance and their unwillingness to repent, but I do not hate them. I try to pray often for my enemies. The Virgin Mother appeared in Fatima 1917 and asked the children to pray for people on their way to Hell, so that they don't go there. She asked them to also offer up their sufferings for that cause. You can also, per Catholic Church teaching, offer up your sufferings (which God of course allows us to have...) for the sake of YOUR own sins, to expiate the damage caused by them. For example, if you commit adultery, that obviously harms your relationship w/ your spouse, sometimes irreparably and it always causes damage to your soul, your relationship with a Holy God. So you can offer up the various sufferings of life for the sake of being purified from your own sins. But she appeared to children, who did not have mortal sin (except she told the boy he would have to pray many rosaries before entering Heaven.. I don't know if she told the girls that).
There are so many false religions in the world that it is no wonder you think as you do. However, just because 99% of them are false, does not mean God did not establish a Church. He definitely did (Mt 16:18). The sinners have all but destroyed True Catholicism, yet it cannot be utterly destroyed (same passage). It's just scattered today... (LONG story)

I find it hard to pick apart those of such sincerity Fork
If there's any point i'd like to offer in these religious threads, it's that 'religion' and 'faith' are in two distinct and separate places in the dictionary for a reason

i'm hoping we can at least agree on that......~S~

 

[ding]

Just use your handle - confront reality

I try. It is primarily physicists who have expressed the pervasive relationship between mind and matter. The recognition of existence cannot be separated from existence. As Erwin Schrödinger put it: “The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence.”

 

[ding]

Obviously, but is that really what Christianity is doing? This religious, Christian-based "civility" and "hope" comes with a lot of unnecessary baggage, which isn't very good. Whether it's our blind support of the Jewish Zionist State of Israhell, or the American Protestant/WASP view of the poor, which in general, blames them for living in scarcity and not working hard enough (i.e. The so-called "Protestant Work Ethic"). The rich are good, they deserve all of their riches, because they all worked for it, whereas the poor are lazy, and stupid, and hence deserving of their self-inflicted deprivation. In general, anti-Science and in many ways misanthropic, anti-human. Christians see the world, as consigned to destruction and hence why invest too much time and energy into it? It's all going to be destroyed in Armageddon..etc.

Could it be that your Christian civility and hope is a false one? Based on unnecessary assumptions, that aren't true? It's based upon a vast cornucopia of hocus-pocus, religious gobbledygook. All of those Christians that could be more pro-science and find practical solutions here on Earth for our mortal, often pain-ridden human condition, rather than looking for one in another dimension or throwing up their hands and saying "Oh well, that's the world. One day we will go to heaven and that's the REAL LIFE, not this one, the one we actually have now, but a future life in the ethereal realm of the spirits".



No place ever abolished religion, not even the USSR or now, the DPRK-North Korea. And you're also not factoring in the fact that it was the Western capitalist powers, mostly the religious world that invaded Soviet Russia after WW1, in 1918, forcing communists to defend themselves against a foreign invasion, which led to the centralization of power. What was once truly a soviet republic (i.e. soviet being the Russian word for "council", or a democratic worker's community council), became a more authoritarian-based system, with a strong leader, to survive.

Religion is often used by the ruling class to control the masses, especially when said religion tells its adherents to obey their slave-masters and do as they're told. Christianity is one of those religions, unfortunately, that tells the faithful, to serve their masters as if they were serving God. In the 1940s the Soviet Union (Soviet in name only, because by then power was much more centralized and in the hands of Stalin - although still democratic in some ways, not as it was in the beginning), was invaded by 4 million German Nazis. Now, the Nazis in many ways were non-Marxist, religious socialists. They were right-wing socialists.

Some good people go to church, but that says nothing about whether what they believe is true or not. Religion as I mentioned in a previous post, is just an obsolete human coping mechanism to handle the brutal realities of human life. A better solution to our precarious situation, living in a universe that is constantly trying to kill us, is by developing technology that allows us to have dominion over our environment and have more control over our lives, avoiding being overwhelmed by chaos, disease, and death. In other words, humanity must work together to save itself. Save yourself, you are the answer. it's there within you. The potential and power is there.

By any objective measure Christianity is a force for good. But you have to look at the whole picture. If it were true that religion is just an obsolete human coping mechanism to handle the brutal realities of human life - as you suggest - it would have died out long ago.

Your argument against religion is very similar to Marx's argument against religion; provide for man's material needs and he will have no need for spiritual enlightenment. That just isn't the case. The more materialistic man became, the unhappier man became. We are free to pursue fame, fortune, power and pleasure but in the end none of those will satisfy us because we were made for more.

 

[BreezeWood]

By any objective measure Christianity is a force for good ... If it were true that religion is just an obsolete human coping mechanism - it would have died out long ago.

desert religions are not coping mechanisms they are assertions of authority disguised in false pretenses of the supernatural to sway obedience that otherwise are only opinions not universally shared -

and historically are not what has been good but rather selective self indulgences, moses and abraham et all who claim heavenly personification for their own purposes that never occurred.

 

[forkintheroad7]

I find it hard to pick apart those of such sincerity Fork
If there's any point i'd like to offer in these religious threads, it's that 'religion' and 'faith' are in two distinct and separate places in the dictionary for a reason

i'm hoping we can at least agree on that......~S~

A practicing Catholic would never agree w/ that: separating religion from faith. Again, there are 1000s of false religions and you are correct to reject them. But one cannot reject the TRUE faith given us from God (which used to be centered in the Vatican but the Vatican was taken over by anti-Catholics in 1958. I believe Pius XII was murdered so that that could happen, but I haven't accumulated sufficient evidence to say w/ certainty yet).

 

[BreezeWood]

Again, there are 1000s of false religions ...

- all those written in scriptural form and can not be spoken the same in all languages.

 

[sparky]

A practicing Catholic would never agree w/ that: separating religion from faith.

Yet any enlightened ex catholic would see exactly that as the crux here Fork

~S~

 

[TruthNotBS]

By any objective measure Christianity is a force for good. But you have to look at the whole picture. If it were true that religion is just an obsolete human coping mechanism to handle the brutal realities of human life - as you suggest - it would have died out long ago.

Your argument against religion is very similar to Marx's argument against religion; provide for man's material needs and he will have no need for spiritual enlightenment. That just isn't the case. The more materialistic man became, the unhappier man became. We are free to pursue fame, fortune, power and pleasure but in the end none of those will satisfy us because we were made for more.

By any objective measure Christianity is a force for good.

How?

But you have to look at the whole picture. If it were true that religion is just an obsolete human coping mechanism to handle the brutal realities of human life - as you suggest - it would have died out long ago.

Really? Why?

Your argument against religion is very similar to Marx's argument against religion; provide for man's material needs and he will have no need for spiritual enlightenment.

That's a strawman argument, because that's not my argument vs Christianity and other religions. I'm not necessarily against religion, just bad religion. As far as Marx, he did say something similar to what you're asserting and there is much truth to it. In the years I spent in church, I never attended "Brother Mike's stage 4 cancer celebration", a special dinner for sister Ruth, to celebrate her terminal breast cancer and the fact her doctor told her she has three more months to live. Christians with terminal, stage 4 cancer should be elated, ecstatic, jumping for joy, that in a few months, they're going to fly out of their bodies as immortal spirit beings, and spend eternity with Jesus, singing church hymns while playing their glowing harps.

Why would a Christian, if he or she actually believed in Christian dogma, be asking anyone to pray for them not to die? Material conditions are incredibly important, and if you have that met, through wealth, industrialization, technology..etc, you may not feel the need to be a Christian. You will throw away that emotional, psychological crutch and find meaning and spirituality in what is real, true and actually contributes to your survival and success as a human being.

That just isn't the case. The more materialistic man became, the unhappier man became.

That depends on how you define "materialism". Your error is in thinking that materialists can't be spiritual or possess a sense of awe and reverence towards life, and this wonderous, vast universe that we live in, with its many mysteries still to be discovered. I love life, that is my highest value. If I had a deity, it would be the state of being alive, the great privilege of being a living, breathing human being. That's GOD for me, it's existence itself, not a petty, angry tyrant, living in absolute abundance and safety, without a clue of what it is to be truly human, condemning people to eternal torment in his torture dungeon because his mortal, finite creatures didn't convert to a particular religion or grovel at his feet.

How can anyone pledge their allegiance to such a horrible character? Out of fear, no, TERROR. You're going to be tortured in a fiery lake forever, and ever, because you didn't convert to Christianity, or Islam, or you weren't a friend of the Jews, i.e. serve their interests to the detriment of everyone else, as in AIPAC..etc, hence you won't even rise from the dead. The Abrahamic religions, are the worst of the pile.

We are free to pursue fame, fortune, power and pleasure but in the end none of those will satisfy us because we were made for more.

The negative traits mentioned above, are found amongst both secular and the religious, so your point is moot. To assume that only non-religious, secular people are vain and narcissistic, whereas religious people aren't is quite ignorant, if not RICH. There are many secular people who don't live lives pursuing fame, fortune, the wrong type of power and pleasure, and dedicate their lives to much more rewarding, important endeavors, like pursuing the cure for cancer or socioeconomic and political justice, striving to make this world a better place for everyone, especially our children. Non-religious folks live meaningful, ethical, good lives, amongst family and their comrades.

 

[ding]

How?




Really? Why?



That's a strawman argument, because that's not my argument vs Christianity and other religions. I'm not necessarily against religion, just bad religion. As far as Marx, he did say something similar to what you're asserting and there is much truth to it. In the years I spent in church, I never attended "Brother Mike's stage 4 cancer celebration", a special dinner for sister Ruth, to celebrate her terminal breast cancer and the fact her doctor told her she has three more months to live. Christians with terminal, stage 4 cancer should be elated, ecstatic, jumping for joy, that in a few months, they're going to fly out of their bodies as immortal spirit beings, and spend eternity with Jesus, singing church hymns while playing their glowing harps.

Why would a Christian, if he or she actually believed in Christian dogma, be asking anyone to pray for them not to die? Material conditions are incredibly important, and if you have that met, through wealth, industrialization, technology..etc, you may not feel the need to be a Christian. You will throw away that emotional, psychological crutch and find meaning and spirituality in what is real, true and actually contributes to your survival and success as a human being.



That depends on how you define "materialism". Your error is in thinking that materialists can't be spiritual or possess a sense of awe and reverence towards life, and this wonderous, vast universe that we live in, with its many mysteries still to be discovered. I love life, that is my highest value. If I had a deity, it would be the state of being alive, the great privilege of being a living, breathing human being. That's GOD for me, it's existence itself, not a petty, angry tyrant, living in absolute abundance and safety, without a clue of what it is to be truly human, condemning people to eternal torment in his torture dungeon because his mortal, finite creatures didn't convert to a particular religion or grovel at his feet.

How can anyone pledge their allegiance to such a horrible character? Out of fear, no, TERROR. You're going to be tortured in a fiery lake forever, and ever, because you didn't convert to Christianity, or Islam, or you weren't a friend of the Jews, i.e. serve their interests to the detriment of everyone else, as in AIPAC..etc, hence you won't even rise from the dead. The Abrahamic religions, are the worst of the pile.



The negative traits mentioned above, are found amongst both secular and the religious, so your point is moot. To assume that only non-religious, secular people are vain and narcissistic, whereas religious people aren't is quite ignorant, if not RICH. There are many secular people who don't live lives pursuing fame, fortune, the wrong type of power and pleasure, and dedicate their lives to much more rewarding, important endeavors, like pursuing the cure for cancer or socioeconomic and political justice, striving to make this world a better place for everyone, especially our children. Non-religious folks live meaningful, ethical, good lives, amongst family and their comrades.

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness.

Christianity creates wonderful charities and organizations

Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.

Christianity has been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing.

Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity.

Christianity has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility.

Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility.

Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave.

Christianity teaches that actions have consequences.

Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe.

Christianity helps us feel connected to one another and to nature.

Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world.

Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit.

Christianity serves to bind the community together.

Christianity inspires love, peace and happiness.

Christianity serves to create traditions.

Christianity brings order to our lives.

Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill.

Christianity can act as a source of hope for the oppressed.

Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves.

Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon.

No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church.

Modern science was born in the Catholic Church.

Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market.

The Catholic Church invented the university.

Western law grew out of Church canon law.

The Catholic Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life.

The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources.

Christianity gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians.

Christianity gave us America.

Christianity gave us incredible artwork.

Christianity gave us incredible music.

Christianity gave us incredible architecture.

Christianity has spread democracy.

Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression.

Christians rebuilt Europe after WWII.

Christians rebuilt Japan after WWII.

Christians put a man on the moon.

Christians ended the cold war.

 

[ding]

How?




Really? Why?



That's a strawman argument, because that's not my argument vs Christianity and other religions. I'm not necessarily against religion, just bad religion. As far as Marx, he did say something similar to what you're asserting and there is much truth to it. In the years I spent in church, I never attended "Brother Mike's stage 4 cancer celebration", a special dinner for sister Ruth, to celebrate her terminal breast cancer and the fact her doctor told her she has three more months to live. Christians with terminal, stage 4 cancer should be elated, ecstatic, jumping for joy, that in a few months, they're going to fly out of their bodies as immortal spirit beings, and spend eternity with Jesus, singing church hymns while playing their glowing harps.

Why would a Christian, if he or she actually believed in Christian dogma, be asking anyone to pray for them not to die? Material conditions are incredibly important, and if you have that met, through wealth, industrialization, technology..etc, you may not feel the need to be a Christian. You will throw away that emotional, psychological crutch and find meaning and spirituality in what is real, true and actually contributes to your survival and success as a human being.



That depends on how you define "materialism". Your error is in thinking that materialists can't be spiritual or possess a sense of awe and reverence towards life, and this wonderous, vast universe that we live in, with its many mysteries still to be discovered. I love life, that is my highest value. If I had a deity, it would be the state of being alive, the great privilege of being a living, breathing human being. That's GOD for me, it's existence itself, not a petty, angry tyrant, living in absolute abundance and safety, without a clue of what it is to be truly human, condemning people to eternal torment in his torture dungeon because his mortal, finite creatures didn't convert to a particular religion or grovel at his feet.

How can anyone pledge their allegiance to such a horrible character? Out of fear, no, TERROR. You're going to be tortured in a fiery lake forever, and ever, because you didn't convert to Christianity, or Islam, or you weren't a friend of the Jews, i.e. serve their interests to the detriment of everyone else, as in AIPAC..etc, hence you won't even rise from the dead. The Abrahamic religions, are the worst of the pile.



The negative traits mentioned above, are found amongst both secular and the religious, so your point is moot. To assume that only non-religious, secular people are vain and narcissistic, whereas religious people aren't is quite ignorant, if not RICH. There are many secular people who don't live lives pursuing fame, fortune, the wrong type of power and pleasure, and dedicate their lives to much more rewarding, important endeavors, like pursuing the cure for cancer or socioeconomic and political justice, striving to make this world a better place for everyone, especially our children. Non-religious folks live meaningful, ethical, good lives, amongst family and their comrades.

We don't have to wonder what it would be like under atheist nations. We have plenty of examples from the 20th century. You guys did a wonderful job.

 

[TruthNotBS]

We don't have to wonder what it would be like under atheist nations. We have plenty of examples from the 20th century. You guys did a wonderful job.

Nice try with your poorly reasoned rhetoric, but no, you failed that one. Practically all Western governments, including that of the USA, is secular or non-religious. We don't have a "Christian goverment" or a "theocracy", so again, your point is moot. If you want to debate who was correct, the Western capitalist backed powers or the USSR, capitalism vs socialism/communism, we can do that to. You want to go that route, sure no problem. But as far as atheism vs theism, Western governments are a-theistic, not theistic, they are without any allegiance to a particular deity or religion, hence secular. So you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[BreezeWood]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness.

christianity has never not been in the forefront of persecution and victimization of the innocent - throughout history ...

bing has no sense of honesty - relies on lying for their justification to continue in their evil ways as if not to be noticed for their crime.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness.

Christianity creates wonderful charities and organizations

Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.

Christianity has been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing.

Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity.

Christianity has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility.

Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility.

Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave.

Christianity teaches that actions have consequences.

Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe.

Christianity helps us feel connected to one another and to nature.

Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world.

Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit.

Christianity serves to bind the community together.

Christianity inspires love, peace and happiness.

Christianity serves to create traditions.

Christianity brings order to our lives.

Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill.

Christianity can act as a source of hope for the oppressed.

Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves.

Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon.

No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church.

Modern science was born in the Catholic Church.

Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market.

The Catholic Church invented the university.

Western law grew out of Church canon law.

The Catholic Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life.

The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources.

Christianity gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians.

Christianity gave us America.

Christianity gave us incredible artwork.

Christianity gave us incredible music.

Christianity gave us incredible architecture.

Christianity has spread democracy.

Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression.

Christians rebuilt Europe after WWII.

Christians rebuilt Japan after WWII.

Christians put a man on the moon.

Christians ended the cold war.

Let's break this down by addressing the underlying myth and delusion that Christianity promotes, starting with the nature of its "virtue" claims and the moral system it enforces.

Virtue of Christianity:

Sure, Christianity preaches virtues like thankfulness and forgiveness, but let’s be real, those ideals are often drowned out by its history of violence, persecution, and intolerance. The Crusades, the Inquisition, and the colonization of entire peoples were executed under the banner of Christian "morality." Christianity encourages people to pass their responsibilities onto a scapegoat, namely, Jesus, who suffers for their sins. Is that real accountability, or is it a cosmic dodge of personal responsibility?

And let’s not even start on the idea of an eternal torture chamber where you’re thrown if you don’t fall in line. This is a god who punishes finite beings with infinite torment, hardly a moral exemplar. Christianity’s so-called virtues are often a thin veil over centuries of terror and control.

Charity and Organizations:

Christian charities are a convenient mask for deeper motives: proselytization and expansion of religious influence. Their "generosity" frequently comes with a catch, like conversion. This isn’t altruism; it’s transactional at best, manipulative at worst. And while you claim Christianity spearheads charity, the reality is that many secular organizations operate on pure humanitarian values without dangling salvation over people’s heads. Christianity’s charitable contributions often come with a religious hook, making it less about genuine help and more about recruitment.

Moreover, many charities wouldn't be necessary if Christian conservatives stopped serving the vested interests of the rich and powerful, to the detriment of the poor and working class. We could very easily solve the homeless epidemic in America, but unfortunately, Christian Republican conservatives, are often against the government doing anything to solve these problems, while supporting the government's assistance for the rich and powerful:

Rank	Parent	Subsidy Value	Number of Awards
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79

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Socialism for the rich and powerful ruling elites, NO PROBLEM! Socialism for the hard-working poor and middle-class? NO, YOU BUMS!

​

Education and Healthcare:

Yes, Christians have brought literacy and healthcare to various parts of the world, but always at a price - cultural and spiritual erasure. The whole mission wasn’t just to provide education, but to "civilize" by force, replacing indigenous belief systems with Christian dogma. Many of the cultures that Christianity "educated" were already thriving in their own ways, and instead of aiding them, Christianity bulldozed over their traditions, under the guise of "helping." Is that what you call benevolence, or cultural genocide? It's clearly the latter.

Most of the people in America today against universal, tuition free education and healthcare, are Christians. Christians love their capitalism, even to the point of capitalizing on people's education and healthcare, rather than seeing them as human rights, and a societal investment, with a high ROI i.e. Return On Investment.

Hospitals, Orphanages, Schools:

Christian institutions have been involved in care, but let’s not forget the systemic abuse, exploitation, and cover-ups that followed. Catholic orphanages and schools have been riddled with abuse scandals for years. If Christianity truly cared about human flourishing, why has it done so much harm to the very people it claimed to help? These institutions weren’t free of moral superiority; they were often grounds for control, exploitation and abuse. Look at how the Catholic church hides it's pedo-priests, protecting them from criminal prosecution. They're reassigned to another parish or sent to a monastery somewhere, while their victims are left to pick up the pieces, dealing with the trauma.

Subsidiarity Concept:

Christianity didn’t create local governance or the idea of subsidiarity; decentralized leadership existed in many cultures long before. Claiming it as a Christian idea erases the rich history of other global systems. Christianity has often been about centralized control through the Church, not empowering local or individual governance.

Teaching Morality and Civility:

Christianity doesn’t have a monopoly on teaching morality. Societies throughout history have developed advanced legal systems and moral codes without any need for a tyrannical sky god to lay down the rules. Christianity’s version of morality has historically been rigid, intolerant, and authoritarian, punishing non-believers and anyone who dared to step outside its doctrinal boundaries.

Accountability and Responsibility:

Where was Christianity’s accountability when the Church was covering up sexual abuse for decades? Where was the responsibility when priests and bishops systematically protected abusers instead of their victims? Christianity preaches accountability but rarely practices it, especially when it comes to its own institutions. Moral hypocrisy is not the same as moral leadership.

In Christian theology, the concept of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, or scapegoat, essentially shifts personal responsibility for sin onto him. The idea is that because Jesus died for the sins of humanity, believers are absolved of their guilt simply by accepting him as their savior. This doctrine allows people to externalize their moral failures, essentially giving them a free pass because Jesus "paid the price." Instead of taking full accountability for their actions, many Christians are taught that their sins are wiped clean without any real effort on their part to rectify wrongs or make meaningful changes.

This "get-out-of-jail-free" theology can foster a dangerous sense of entitlement to sin. Since Jesus has already taken on the burden of their transgressions, some believers may feel less compelled to avoid wrongdoing. The doctrine allows for a moral loophole—no matter how egregious their actions, as long as they "repent" and lean on Jesus' sacrifice, they can avoid true responsibility. In contrast, a more genuine moral system would encourage people to own their mistakes and work toward self-improvement, not outsource their accountability to a divine figure. This moral outsourcing weakens the sense of personal responsibility and can undermine real ethical development.

Choice and Consequences:

Free will under Christianity is a sham. Believe in the "right" things or burn forever, that’s the Christian version of "freedom". It’s not real choice if the alternative is eternal suffering. Historically, Christianity has often denied people freedom, forcing conversions and silencing dissent. The "choice" was either conform or face brutal consequences.

Inspiring Wonder in Nature:

Christianity has stifled curiosity about the natural world more than it has fostered it. The Church actively suppressed scientific discoveries that challenged its dogma, as seen in its persecution of Galileo. Secularism, not Christianity, has truly opened the door to exploring the universe with wonder, driven by reason and inquiry rather than blind faith.

This claim is deeply ironic when you consider the prevalent Christian belief in America that the world is doomed to destruction. Many Christians adhere to the idea of the rapture and Armageddon, where the earth will be consumed by chaos and believers will be whisked away to heaven. This apocalyptic mindset fosters a dangerous form of escapism, where the natural world is disregarded because it’s seen as temporary, evil, or consigned to destruction.

If the world is ultimately destined for divine destruction, why bother investing in its preservation or making it better? This belief undermines any real sense of stewardship or care for the environment. It allows people to neglect the natural world, rationalizing that it’s all part of God’s plan to destroy it anyway. Rather than inspiring wonder and responsibility toward nature, these end-times beliefs breed complacency and indifference, which stand in stark contrast to the notion of marveling at the universe and seeking to protect it.

Community and Connection:

Christian "community" has often been about exclusion rather than inclusion. Heretics, non-believers, and anyone not willing to toe the Christian line have historically been ostracized, persecuted, or worse. Real community should be about shared human values, not religious dogma that divides and alienates.

Feeling Less Alone:

Christianity may comfort some, but it often isolates and terrifies others. A moral system based on fear of eternal damnation doesn’t offer real connection, it offers control through terror.

Ennobling the Human Spirit:

Christianity has often done more to disable the human spirit than to uplift it. The Church has promoted submission, fear, and denial of self under the guise of holiness. Genuine self-actualization and human dignity come not from groveling before an authoritarian god who lives in absolute, immortal, eternal safety and opulence, but from embracing life, knowledge, and ethical freedom without coercion or heavenly terrorism from an extremely privileged divine bully, with anger issues.

Community and Tradition:

Many so-called Christian traditions are either borrowed from earlier cultures or have been used to justify imperial conquest and violence. The legacy of Christianity’s "traditions" includes forced conversions, colonialism, and cultural suppression. Are these the traditions we’re supposed to celebrate?

Comfort to the Terminally Ill:

Christianity might offer comfort to some facing death, but it also instills a deep, existential fear of judgment, hellfire, and eternal suffering. A secular, life-affirming perspective sees death as part of the natural cycle, not a terrifying transition to eternal punishment.

Hope for the Oppressed:

Historically, Christianity has often stood with the oppressors, from blessing colonial conquests to supporting slavery. The Church frequently aligned itself with power structures that exploited and subjugated entire populations. The hope for the oppressed has come from resistance, revolution, and secular human rights movements, not from the institutions of Christianity.

The Christian Bible actually tells slaves not to resist their slave masters and serve them as if they were serving God.

Transformation:

Personal transformation and self-improvement are human concepts, not unique to Christianity. Many traditions, secular and religious alike, have offered paths to personal growth and enlightenment that don’t rely on dogma or divine oversight.

Foundation of Western Civilization:

Western civilization was shaped by a mix of influences, including Greek philosophy, Roman law, and Enlightenment ideals. Christianity cannot take sole credit. In fact, much of the progress made in the West came from challenging Christian authority and dogma, not from embracing it.

Catholic Church’s Role:

The Catholic Church has been as much a roadblock to progress as it has been a contributor. From censoring heretical works to persecuting scientists, the Church fought to maintain its power, not to advance humanity.

Modern Science and the Church:

The idea that modern science emerged from the Catholic Church is laughable. The Church consistently resisted scientific progress whenever it contradicted religious teachings. In the Western world, secular thinkers and heretics, not the Church, were the ones who advanced human knowledge.

Slavery:

The Catholic Church, along with Christianity at large, was complicit in slavery for centuries. Only when the tides of political and economic realities shifted did the Church begin to speak against it. It was secular abolitionist movements that truly dismantled the institution of slavery.

Slavery was abolished despite Christianity:

• Ephesians 6:5-9 (KJV)
  "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."
  This passage instructs slaves to obey their earthly masters with the same reverence they would show to Christ.
• Colossians 3:22-24 (KJV)
  "Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."
• 1 Timothy 6:1-2 (KJV)
  "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort."
  This passage encourages slaves to show respect and obedience to their masters, especially if their masters are fellow Christians.
• Titus 2:9-10 (KJV)
  "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things."
• 1 Peter 2:18 (KJV)
  "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."
  Here, slaves are encouraged to submit even to harsh or unjust masters.

America and Christianity:

America’s foundation was built on the genocide of Native peoples and the enslavement of Africans, often justified by Christian doctrine. Christianity's role in these atrocities is undeniable. The idea that America is some sort of Christian gift is an insult to its brutal history.

Christianity’s so-called "moral leadership" is deeply flawed, and its historical impact is marred by oppression, coercion, and violence. The claims of its benevolence crumble when faced with the cold, hard facts of its legacy.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Nice try with your poorly reasoned rhetoric, but no, you failed that one. Practically all Western governments, including that of the USA, is secular or non-religious. We don't have a "Christian goverment" or a "theocracy", so again, your point is moot. If you want to debate who was correct, the Western capitalist backed powers or the USSR, capitalism vs socialism/communism, we can do that to. You want to go that route, sure no problem. But as far as atheism vs theism, Western governments are a-theistic, not theistic, they are without any allegiance to a particular deity or religion, hence secular. So you're barking up the wrong tree.

typo correction, to = too

 

[sparky]

Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness.

Christianity creates wonderful charities and organizations

Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.

Christianity has been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing.

Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity.

Christianity has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility.

Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility.

Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave.

Christianity teaches that actions have consequences.

Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe.

Christianity helps us feel connected to one another and to nature.

Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world.

Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit.

Christianity serves to bind the community together.

Christianity inspires love, peace and happiness.

Christianity serves to create traditions.

Christianity brings order to our lives.

Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill.

Christianity can act as a source of hope for the oppressed.

Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves.

Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon.

No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church.

Modern science was born in the Catholic Church.

Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market.

The Catholic Church invented the university.

Western law grew out of Church canon law.

The Catholic Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life.

The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources.

Christianity gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians.

Christianity gave us America.

Christianity gave us incredible artwork.

Christianity gave us incredible music.

Christianity gave us incredible architecture.

Christianity has spread democracy.

Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression.

Christians rebuilt Europe after WWII.

Christians rebuilt Japan after WWII.

Christians put a man on the moon.

Christians ended the cold war.

and while i'll agree Ding, none of it is the 'word of God' ~S~

 

[ding]

Nice try with your poorly reasoned rhetoric, but no, you failed that one. Practically all Western governments, including that of the USA, is secular or non-religious. We don't have a "Christian goverment" or a "theocracy", so again, your point is moot. If you want to debate who was correct, the Western capitalist backed powers or the USSR, capitalism vs socialism/communism, we can do that to. You want to go that route, sure no problem. But as far as atheism vs theism, Western governments are a-theistic, not theistic, they are without any allegiance to a particular deity or religion, hence secular. So you're barking up the wrong tree.

It's not a try, it's reality; history. Every atheistic nation has been a communist nation. Every atheist nation has been a horrible steward of human rights.

It was for good reason that Karl Marx said, "communism is naturalized humanism."

To a man the founding fathers believed that natural rights come from God. They didn't care how people perceived God. They believed in a moralistic, providential creator of existence that is the source of all natural rights. Furthermore, they believed these rights were granted for no other reason than we are God's creatures. They believed we have a duty to the Creator and that if we fail our duty our rights can be taken away.

Do you have a link that supports YOUR beliefs? Because I do.

https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3506&context=wlulr#:~:text=He%20once%20wrote%3A%20%22The%20true,be%20limited%20without%20being%20lost.%22

 

[ding]

christianity has never not been in the forefront of persecution and victimization of the innocent - throughout history ...

View attachment 1020605

bing has no sense of honesty - relies on lying for their justification to continue in their evil ways as if not to be noticed for their crime.

1. Christianity promotes the virtues of thankfulness, forgiveness, humility, chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience and kindness.
2. Christianity creates wonderful charities and organizations
3. Christians and Christian institutions are usually the first source of literacy, education, and healthcare in the poorer regions.
4. Christianity has been the source of abundant human services from hospitals, orphanages, nursing homes, and schools, to advocacy on behalf of those with no voice, to supporting cultural outreaches, and seeking always to find ways in which to protect and promote human life and its authentic flourishing.
5. Christianity gave us the concept of subsidiarity.
6. Christianity has done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility.
7. Christianity teaches accountability and responsibility.
8. Christianity teaches that we have a choice in how we behave.
9. Christianity teaches that actions have consequences.
10. Christianity inspires a sense of wonder in nature and the universe.
11. Christianity helps us feel connected to one another and to nature.
12. Christianity helps us feel less alone in the world.
13. Christianity serves to ennoble the human spirit.
14. Christianity serves to bind the community together.
15. Christianity inspires love, peace and happiness.
16. Christianity serves to create traditions.
17. Christianity brings order to our lives.
18. Christianity brings comfort to the terminally ill.
19. Christianity can act as a source of hope for the oppressed.
20. Christianity teaches that we can transform ourselves.
21. Christian values were the foundation which Western Civilization was built upon.
22. No other institution played a greater role in shaping Western Civilization than the Catholic Church.
23. Modern science was born in the Catholic Church.
24. Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market.
25. The Catholic Church invented the university.
26. Western law grew out of Church canon law.
27. The Catholic Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life.
28. The Church constantly sought to alleviate the evils of slavery and repeatedly denounced the mass enslavement of conquered populations and the infamous slave trade, thereby undermining slavery at its sources.
29. Christianity gave us great thinkers, leaders and humanitarians.
30. Christianity gave us America.
31. Christianity gave us incredible artwork.
32. Christianity gave us incredible music.
33. Christianity gave us incredible architecture.
34. Christianity has spread democracy.
35. Christians fought other Christians in WWII to end their aggression.
36. Christians rebuilt Europe after WWII.
37. Christians rebuilt Japan after WWII.
38. Christians put a man on the moon.
39. Christians ended the cold war.

 

[ding]

Let's break this down by addressing the underlying myth and delusion that Christianity promotes, starting with the nature of its "virtue" claims and the moral system it enforces.

Virtue of Christianity:

Sure, Christianity preaches virtues like thankfulness and forgiveness, but let’s be real, those ideals are often drowned out by its history of violence, persecution, and intolerance. The Crusades, the Inquisition, and the colonization of entire peoples were executed under the banner of Christian "morality." Christianity encourages people to pass their responsibilities onto a scapegoat, namely, Jesus, who suffers for their sins. Is that real accountability, or is it a cosmic dodge of personal responsibility?

And let’s not even start on the idea of an eternal torture chamber where you’re thrown if you don’t fall in line. This is a god who punishes finite beings with infinite torment, hardly a moral exemplar. Christianity’s so-called virtues are often a thin veil over centuries of terror and control.

Charity and Organizations:

Christian charities are a convenient mask for deeper motives: proselytization and expansion of religious influence. Their "generosity" frequently comes with a catch, like conversion. This isn’t altruism; it’s transactional at best, manipulative at worst. And while you claim Christianity spearheads charity, the reality is that many secular organizations operate on pure humanitarian values without dangling salvation over people’s heads. Christianity’s charitable contributions often come with a religious hook, making it less about genuine help and more about recruitment.

Moreover, many charities wouldn't be necessary if Christian conservatives stopped serving the vested interests of the rich and powerful, to the detriment of the poor and working class. We could very easily solve the homeless epidemic in America, but unfortunately, Christian Republican conservatives, are often against the government doing anything to solve these problems, while supporting the government's assistance for the rich and powerful:

Rank	Parent	Subsidy Value	Number of Awards
1	Boeing	$15,496,865,703	958
2	Intel	$8,421,707,656	135
3	Ford Motor	$7,742,056,086	703
4	General Motors	$7,524,714,800	792
5	Micron Technology	$6,790,131,915	21
6	Amazon.com	$5,823,705,434	460
7	Alcoa	$5,727,691,764	134
8	Cheniere Energy	$5,617,152,523	43
9	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,820,110,112	74
10	Venture Global LNG	$4,338,702,441	8
11	Texas Instruments	$4,286,328,869	69
12	Volkswagen	$3,977,630,513	217
13	Sempra Energy	$3,828,022,782	51
14	NRG Energy	$3,415,751,518	266
15	NextEra Energy	$3,008,691,129	116
16	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,829,855,494	114
18	Stellantis	$2,795,436,436	213
19	Walt Disney	$2,543,219,673	265
20	Nucor	$2,538,761,123	176
21	Iberdrola	$2,380,558,984	110
22	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$2,364,054,012	7
23	Hyundai Motor	$2,349,743,470	18
24	Oracle	$2,272,418,288	96
25	Shell PLC	$2,211,676,001	132
26	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
27	Nike	$2,104,917,829	153
28	Meta Platforms Inc.	$2,098,261,272	82
29	Toyota	$2,071,010,689	239
30	Alphabet Inc.	$2,054,325,527	125
31	Brookfield Corporation	$1,979,408,388	288
32	Paramount Global	$1,974,249,897	342
33	Comcast	$1,927,402,844	405
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,917,119,478	241
35	Samsung Electronics	$1,891,136,597	41
36	Apple Inc.	$1,845,004,670	63
37	Nissan	$1,842,814,165	98
38	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,830,986,253	1,200
39	Summit Power	$1,783,593,414	6
40	JPMorgan Chase	$1,740,972,699	1,151
41	Energy Transfer	$1,736,836,843	175
42	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,705,497,604	129
43	Southern Company	$1,694,958,172	45
44	General Electric	$1,645,135,367	958
45	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,623,857,336	33
46	Duke Energy	$1,580,421,869	86
47	Wolfspeed Inc.	$1,563,595,610	64
48	General Atomics	$1,510,875,891	112
49	IBM Corp.	$1,497,901,697	368
50	Lockheed Martin	$1,462,674,082	325
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	SCS Energy	$1,419,011,796	5
53	Corning Inc.	$1,391,603,359	401
54	Panasonic	$1,384,147,584	61
55	Microsoft	$1,366,243,159	113
56	Sagamore Development	$1,320,000,000	2
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,284,014,883	285
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	RTX Corporation	$1,193,950,954	797
61	CF Industries	$1,134,394,215	131
62	Valero Energy	$1,053,812,692	207
63	Dow Inc.	$1,049,354,213	640
64	AES Corp.	$1,039,510,135	136
65	Air Products & Chemicals	$1,025,557,482	88
66	Exelon	$986,892,877	98
67	Pyramid Companies	$973,565,278	93
68	SK Holdings	$960,550,283	8
69	SkyWest	$944,296,654	339
70	Centene	$916,607,054	60
71	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
72	Apollo Global Management	$897,750,089	594
73	Delta Air Lines	$871,485,833	13
74	Jefferies Financial Group	$871,137,335	16
75	SK Hynix	$866,700,000	2
76	Bayer	$852,475,226	217
77	Honda	$849,832,301	93
78	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$828,683,936	106
79	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	89
80	SunEdison	$817,425,725	115
81	Goldman Sachs	$800,873,386	253
82	Bank of America	$798,426,128	956
83	E.ON	$786,865,473	40
84	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$786,835,708	219
85	EDF-Electricite de France	$774,590,441	36
86	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
87	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
88	Related Companies	$714,675,504	8
89	Koch Industries	$683,066,388	510
90	Caithness Energy	$672,688,888	30
91	Dell Technologies	$658,417,951	185
92	Wells Fargo	$657,333,216	542
93	FedEx	$647,035,546	633
94	Entergy	$638,533,387	235
95	OCI N.V.	$627,879,406	5
96	Eli Lilly	$623,326,368	79
97	Chevron Phillips Chemical	$619,839,444	20
98	Bedrock Detroit	$618,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$615,436,089	79

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Socialism for the rich and powerful ruling elites, NO PROBLEM! Socialism for the hard-working poor and middle-class? NO, YOU BUMS!

View attachment 1020597​

Education and Healthcare:

Yes, Christians have brought literacy and healthcare to various parts of the world, but always at a price - cultural and spiritual erasure. The whole mission wasn’t just to provide education, but to "civilize" by force, replacing indigenous belief systems with Christian dogma. Many of the cultures that Christianity "educated" were already thriving in their own ways, and instead of aiding them, Christianity bulldozed over their traditions, under the guise of "helping." Is that what you call benevolence, or cultural genocide? It's clearly the latter.

Most of the people in America today against universal, tuition free education and healthcare, are Christians. Christians love their capitalism, even to the point of capitalizing on people's education and healthcare, rather than seeing them as human rights, and a societal investment, with a high ROI i.e. Return On Investment.

Hospitals, Orphanages, Schools:

Christian institutions have been involved in care, but let’s not forget the systemic abuse, exploitation, and cover-ups that followed. Catholic orphanages and schools have been riddled with abuse scandals for years. If Christianity truly cared about human flourishing, why has it done so much harm to the very people it claimed to help? These institutions weren’t free of moral superiority; they were often grounds for control, exploitation and abuse. Look at how the Catholic church hides it's pedo-priests, protecting them from criminal prosecution. They're reassigned to another parish or sent to a monastery somewhere, while their victims are left to pick up the pieces, dealing with the trauma.

Subsidiarity Concept:

Christianity didn’t create local governance or the idea of subsidiarity; decentralized leadership existed in many cultures long before. Claiming it as a Christian idea erases the rich history of other global systems. Christianity has often been about centralized control through the Church, not empowering local or individual governance.

Teaching Morality and Civility:

Christianity doesn’t have a monopoly on teaching morality. Societies throughout history have developed advanced legal systems and moral codes without any need for a tyrannical sky god to lay down the rules. Christianity’s version of morality has historically been rigid, intolerant, and authoritarian, punishing non-believers and anyone who dared to step outside its doctrinal boundaries.

Accountability and Responsibility:

Where was Christianity’s accountability when the Church was covering up sexual abuse for decades? Where was the responsibility when priests and bishops systematically protected abusers instead of their victims? Christianity preaches accountability but rarely practices it, especially when it comes to its own institutions. Moral hypocrisy is not the same as moral leadership.

In Christian theology, the concept of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb, or scapegoat, essentially shifts personal responsibility for sin onto him. The idea is that because Jesus died for the sins of humanity, believers are absolved of their guilt simply by accepting him as their savior. This doctrine allows people to externalize their moral failures, essentially giving them a free pass because Jesus "paid the price." Instead of taking full accountability for their actions, many Christians are taught that their sins are wiped clean without any real effort on their part to rectify wrongs or make meaningful changes.

This "get-out-of-jail-free" theology can foster a dangerous sense of entitlement to sin. Since Jesus has already taken on the burden of their transgressions, some believers may feel less compelled to avoid wrongdoing. The doctrine allows for a moral loophole—no matter how egregious their actions, as long as they "repent" and lean on Jesus' sacrifice, they can avoid true responsibility. In contrast, a more genuine moral system would encourage people to own their mistakes and work toward self-improvement, not outsource their accountability to a divine figure. This moral outsourcing weakens the sense of personal responsibility and can undermine real ethical development.

Choice and Consequences:

Free will under Christianity is a sham. Believe in the "right" things or burn forever, that’s the Christian version of "freedom". It’s not real choice if the alternative is eternal suffering. Historically, Christianity has often denied people freedom, forcing conversions and silencing dissent. The "choice" was either conform or face brutal consequences.

Inspiring Wonder in Nature:

Christianity has stifled curiosity about the natural world more than it has fostered it. The Church actively suppressed scientific discoveries that challenged its dogma, as seen in its persecution of Galileo. Secularism, not Christianity, has truly opened the door to exploring the universe with wonder, driven by reason and inquiry rather than blind faith.

This claim is deeply ironic when you consider the prevalent Christian belief in America that the world is doomed to destruction. Many Christians adhere to the idea of the rapture and Armageddon, where the earth will be consumed by chaos and believers will be whisked away to heaven. This apocalyptic mindset fosters a dangerous form of escapism, where the natural world is disregarded because it’s seen as temporary, evil, or consigned to destruction.

If the world is ultimately destined for divine destruction, why bother investing in its preservation or making it better? This belief undermines any real sense of stewardship or care for the environment. It allows people to neglect the natural world, rationalizing that it’s all part of God’s plan to destroy it anyway. Rather than inspiring wonder and responsibility toward nature, these end-times beliefs breed complacency and indifference, which stand in stark contrast to the notion of marveling at the universe and seeking to protect it.

Community and Connection:

Christian "community" has often been about exclusion rather than inclusion. Heretics, non-believers, and anyone not willing to toe the Christian line have historically been ostracized, persecuted, or worse. Real community should be about shared human values, not religious dogma that divides and alienates.

Feeling Less Alone:

Christianity may comfort some, but it often isolates and terrifies others. A moral system based on fear of eternal damnation doesn’t offer real connection, it offers control through terror.

Ennobling the Human Spirit:

Christianity has often done more to disable the human spirit than to uplift it. The Church has promoted submission, fear, and denial of self under the guise of holiness. Genuine self-actualization and human dignity come not from groveling before an authoritarian god who lives in absolute, immortal, eternal safety and opulence, but from embracing life, knowledge, and ethical freedom without coercion or heavenly terrorism from an extremely privileged divine bully, with anger issues.

Community and Tradition:

Many so-called Christian traditions are either borrowed from earlier cultures or have been used to justify imperial conquest and violence. The legacy of Christianity’s "traditions" includes forced conversions, colonialism, and cultural suppression. Are these the traditions we’re supposed to celebrate?

Comfort to the Terminally Ill:

Christianity might offer comfort to some facing death, but it also instills a deep, existential fear of judgment, hellfire, and eternal suffering. A secular, life-affirming perspective sees death as part of the natural cycle, not a terrifying transition to eternal punishment.

Hope for the Oppressed:

Historically, Christianity has often stood with the oppressors, from blessing colonial conquests to supporting slavery. The Church frequently aligned itself with power structures that exploited and subjugated entire populations. The hope for the oppressed has come from resistance, revolution, and secular human rights movements, not from the institutions of Christianity.

The Christian Bible actually tells slaves not to resist their slave masters and serve them as if they were serving God.

Transformation:

Personal transformation and self-improvement are human concepts, not unique to Christianity. Many traditions, secular and religious alike, have offered paths to personal growth and enlightenment that don’t rely on dogma or divine oversight.

Foundation of Western Civilization:

Western civilization was shaped by a mix of influences, including Greek philosophy, Roman law, and Enlightenment ideals. Christianity cannot take sole credit. In fact, much of the progress made in the West came from challenging Christian authority and dogma, not from embracing it.

Catholic Church’s Role:

The Catholic Church has been as much a roadblock to progress as it has been a contributor. From censoring heretical works to persecuting scientists, the Church fought to maintain its power, not to advance humanity.

Modern Science and the Church:

The idea that modern science emerged from the Catholic Church is laughable. The Church consistently resisted scientific progress whenever it contradicted religious teachings. In the Western world, secular thinkers and heretics, not the Church, were the ones who advanced human knowledge.

Slavery:

The Catholic Church, along with Christianity at large, was complicit in slavery for centuries. Only when the tides of political and economic realities shifted did the Church begin to speak against it. It was secular abolitionist movements that truly dismantled the institution of slavery.

Slavery was abolished despite Christianity:

• Ephesians 6:5-9 (KJV)
  "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."
  This passage instructs slaves to obey their earthly masters with the same reverence they would show to Christ.
• Colossians 3:22-24 (KJV)
  "Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."
• 1 Timothy 6:1-2 (KJV)
  "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort."
  This passage encourages slaves to show respect and obedience to their masters, especially if their masters are fellow Christians.
• Titus 2:9-10 (KJV)
  "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things."
• 1 Peter 2:18 (KJV)
  "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."
  Here, slaves are encouraged to submit even to harsh or unjust masters.

America and Christianity:

America’s foundation was built on the genocide of Native peoples and the enslavement of Africans, often justified by Christian doctrine. Christianity's role in these atrocities is undeniable. The idea that America is some sort of Christian gift is an insult to its brutal history.

Christianity’s so-called "moral leadership" is deeply flawed, and its historical impact is marred by oppression, coercion, and violence. The claims of its benevolence crumble when faced with the cold, hard facts of its legacy.

That's nice.

 

[ding]

and while i'll agree Ding, none of it is the 'word of God' ~S~

Thanks, what is the word of God? Isn't anything that is true the word of God? Isn't God truth among other "things?"