At least 6 dead in random shooting in Kalamazoo County, Michigan, suspect under arrest

[2aguy]

I bet if we fried more of these bastards, we would see a reduction in gun violence.

Let's fry the guns instead. So much easier.

Ban guns, like we banned drugs? Tell us how that worked out for ya?

Can't say, I haven't see a ban yet, Lots of laws, no real actions, especially against Americans who love their illegal drugs. Drugs legal and guns illegal might be just the thing. Let's find out...

We already know what that equation produces. The Soviets tried it. How many millions of people did the commies murder?

The Nazis loved guns, how many did they murder?

The nazis and the rest of Europe disarmed their people after WW1....and then they murdered 12 million Europeans in gas chambers.....Switzerland...with 435,000 armed civilians ready to fight with their rifles, kept the nazis from invading....unlike all the other countries of Europe who disarmed their citizens.....there was no holocaust in Switzerland....

 

[2aguy]

Kalamazoo already has tough gun laws. They didn't work.

Bustle

They never do work. There has never been any evidence that they do anything.

Work great in Japan. A handfull of gun murders a year.

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

In 2008 they executed 15.

Mexico has no death penalty, very restrictive gun laws and their homicide rate is 6 times higher than The United States.

The cartels have also been using ovens to get rid of the mass murders they have committed.....

 

[2aguy]

Kalamazoo already has tough gun laws. They didn't work.

Bustle

They never do work. There has never been any evidence that they do anything.

Work great in Japan. A handfull of gun murders a year.

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

 

[tigerred59]

This murdering white piece of shit, is alive and well, so relax folks.....he's not some unarmed nigga' reaching for a wallet, or holding his hands up or walking minding his own business....that according to white cops, deserve a motherfuckin bullet in the head...NO, THIS IS YOUR AVERAGE HARD WORKING JUST HAVING A BAD MOTHERFUCKIN DAY, WHITE MOTHERFUCKER...WHO BY ALL ACCOUNTS IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY OF MURDERING 6 INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN.

"What it looks like, is we have somebody just driving around finding people and shooting them dead in their tracks," Matyas told CNN Saturday. "These are random murders.”

“There is no connection between any of them," he added.

Surveillance video and employees at the car dealership and restaurant helped identify Dalton's vehicle, police said in a Sunday morning news conference. They described the shootings as intentional and noted Dalton had no known criminal record.

Michael Brown didn't have his hands up. Why do you people insist on peddling that lie??

You deflecting piece of horse shit...this isn't about MB, its about yet another white bitch who kill motherfuckers living to talk about it. I'm not even gonna address you, you're too fucked up in the head. Bye mf!!!!

Racist much?

Every gotdam time somebody shines a light on you white fucks, they're called racist, up yours!!

 

[2aguy]

This murdering white piece of shit, is alive and well, so relax folks.....he's not some unarmed nigga' reaching for a wallet, or holding his hands up or walking minding his own business....that according to white cops, deserve a motherfuckin bullet in the head...NO, THIS IS YOUR AVERAGE HARD WORKING JUST HAVING A BAD MOTHERFUCKIN DAY, WHITE MOTHERFUCKER...WHO BY ALL ACCOUNTS IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY OF MURDERING 6 INNOCENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING CHILDREN.

"What it looks like, is we have somebody just driving around finding people and shooting them dead in their tracks," Matyas told CNN Saturday. "These are random murders.”

“There is no connection between any of them," he added.

Surveillance video and employees at the car dealership and restaurant helped identify Dalton's vehicle, police said in a Sunday morning news conference. They described the shootings as intentional and noted Dalton had no known criminal record.

Michael Brown didn't have his hands up. Why do you people insist on peddling that lie??

You deflecting piece of horse shit...this isn't about MB, its about yet another white bitch who kill motherfuckers living to talk about it. I'm not even gonna address you, you're too fucked up in the head. Bye mf!!!!

Racist much?

Every gotdam time somebody shines a light on you white fucks, they're called racist, up yours!!

What are you talking about twit.

 

[Rustic]

Why would you think that?

Because I know who likes shit like that. Some of them are even clients.

What do you do?

None of your business, but I'm a consultant.

What do you consult?

At the comic store he consults the customers...no...we do not have #42 Spider Man vs. Doctor Octopus.....

Well, he will not say what he consults. It must be some nasty shit...

 

[HappyJoy]

Kalamazoo already has tough gun laws. They didn't work.

Bustle

They never do work. There has never been any evidence that they do anything.

Work great in Japan. A handfull of gun murders a year.

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

 

[tigerred59]

Now if this was a black man, a fuckin muslim, a hispanic, you white bitches would be blowing this thread up with hate shit.....but because its some blonde blue eyed white motherfucker, all you see is topics on bullshit...swear to god you white fucks are the devil himself!!

 

[2aguy]

They never do work. There has never been any evidence that they do anything.

Work great in Japan. A handfull of gun murders a year.

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

 

[HappyJoy]

Work great in Japan. A handfull of gun murders a year.

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with. Not for your average run of the mill criminal.

 

[2aguy]

They never do work. There has never been any evidence that they do anything.

Work great in Japan. A handfull of gun murders a year.

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

Here you go...when the Yakuza need to kill each other, they get guns....

Gangs buying up guns and hitmen.....2015

Yakuza rivals buying up guns, recruiting assassins - AJW by The Asahi Shimbun

By proposing high pay, the recruiters are trying to encourage the gang warfare by hinting that those who carry out the first hits will be paid more,” the source said.

A former high-ranking gang member living in the Kanto region said he began receiving calls asking about the availability of loaded guns from around late August, when the Yamaguchi-gumi split came to light.

The calls, eight in total, to the former gangster’s mobile phone continued into September.

Without saying who made the calls, the former gangster said the requests likely came from both sides involved in the Yamaguchi-gumi breakup.

The large number of intermediaries involved in supplying guns made it difficult to pinpoint who was actually going on the shopping spree, the former mobster said.


-----------------
By Benjamin David Baker
November 20, 2015

Japan Faces a Possible Mob War After Yakuza Gang Fractures

However, few things are more dangerous than when mob families go to war.

This fear seems to have been vindicated. According to the Asahi Shimbun, both the Yamaguchi-gumi and the thirteen splinter groups have been busy buying up weapons and lining up hitmen. The first shots in this mob war might have already been fired outside a hot spring facility in Iida, Nagano Prefecture. The 43-year-old man who was shot and killed outside a bathhouse on October 6 wanted to leave a Yamaguchi-gumi affiliate and join the newly formed rival organization consisting of the rebel gangs.

In what might be retaliation for this murder, a boss in the original Yamaguchi-gumi was killed on Sunday. Tatsuyuki Hishida was found tied up in his apartment after being bludgeoned to death. Police report that the killing was most likely in response to the Yamaguchi-gumi’s split.

The Japanese government has good reason to fear a gang war. Between 1985 and 1987, 25 Yakuza members were killedand around 70 were injured in a feud involving affiliated rival gangs. That bloodshed was triggered in part over disagreement over who should become the head of the Yamaguchi-gumi. A few years ago, another war broke out between two rival gangs on the southern island of Kyushu, in which mobsters attacked each other with machine guns and grenades.






-------------
The Great Japanese Gang Wars

The season for pineapples (yakuza slang for hand grenades) may finally be over. Jake Adelstein and Nathalie-Kyoko Stucky on the bloody, seven-year battle between the Dojin-kai and the Seido-kai.


In Southern Japan, the brutal pineapple season may finally be over; pineapple is yakuza slang for “hand grenade”—one of the many weapons utilized in a seven-year gang war between the Dojin-kai (1,000 members) and the splinter group the Kyushu Seido-kei (500 members).

It’s a gang war in which there have been over 45 violent incidents, including bombings, shots exchanged during high-speed car chases, and 14 deaths. At least seven deaths, including one civilian's, were from gunfire; a phenomenally high figure when you consider the number of gun deaths for all of Japan in 2011 was eight people. (Japan has some of the strictest gun-control laws in the world.)

On June 11, senior members of the Dojin-kai and the Kyushu Seido-kai (a.k.a. Seido-kai) visited the Fukuoka Police Kurume Police Station with an official announcement that they were ending the conflict. TheSeido-kai brought a virtual white flag, a notification of their dissolution (解散届け), in which they wrote, “For a long time we have made everyone ill at ease, disturbed people, and been a nuisance to society. We have decided our breakup is the only way to restore peace.” The Dojin-kai in turn proclaimed, “Since the Seido-kai is dissolved, this situation is over and we apologize to people and the authorities for the anxiety we have caused.”
--------------------

Handouts for Hand Grenades: Yakuza Gang War Leads to an Explosive Bounty

TOKYO -- Japan’s Fukuoka Prefecture Police have become the first in Japan to offer cash rewards to anyone who reports finding a hand grenade (or "pineapples" in yakuza slang) starting today, April 2. A long-running gang war in the prefecture has raised public fear in the area, and the handy hand-grenade has increasingly become the weapon of choice amongst rival gang members. As Japan has put into place increasingly harsher laws regulating the actions of the Japanese mafia, aka the yakuza, forcing many out of business--the remaining thugs are fighting viciously over what's left of the pie

When gang members aren't lobbing grenades or shooting at each other, they are shooting at the offices of companies trying to cut organized crime Last year, on Nov. 26, Toshihiro Uchino, the 72-year-old president of Hakushin Construction --which was trying to cut ties to local gangs---was shot to death outside his home in Kitakyushu.


The most violent of the groups and considered the primary user of hand grenades is the Kyushu Seidokai. The Kyushu Seidokai has expanded into Tokyo, setting up several front companies, and joined forces with Tadamasa Goto, a former Yamaguchi-gumi boss turned Buddhist priest, who has now re-emerged as a powerful player in Japan's underworld. Tokyo Police are also worried that "pineapples" may be thrown around the metropolis in the near future. "A coalition between Goto and the Kyushu Seido-kai doesn't bode well for the public safety," said a detective who works organized crime. "We’re not excited about the possibility of yakuza lobbing grenades into Tokyo offices and homes."
--------

Japan braces for violence among 'yakuza' crime gangs

TOKYO — Japan is bracing for war.

Not with other countries, but with the nation's notorious gangsters.

A 43-year-old man was gunned down in the parking lot of a hot springs resort in western Japan earlier this month in what authorities say they fear could be the start of a deadly war among the nation's largest organized crime gangs, known collectively as the yakuza.

The powerful Yamaguchi-gumi crime syndicate, which marked its 100th anniversary this year, split into two rival groups in September. Police arrested a member of the Yamaguchi-gumi in the hot springs shooting and identified the victim as a member of the breakaway group.

Analysts said the rupture was due to long-running disputes over succession plans and high fees that member groups were required to pay Yamaguchi-gumi leaders.
-------
A dispute over the gang’s leadership in the early 1980s led to a two-year war that left an estimated 30 gangsters dead, 70 others wounded and more than 500 in police custody. However, there are no statistics on the number of civilians killed or injured in the violence.

 

[2aguy]

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with.

Keep telling yourself that.......they want money.....not killing.....if only our thugs were that interested in money over killing they wouldn't shoot each other as often....

 

[HappyJoy]

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with.

Keep telling yourself that.......they want money.....not killing.....if only our thugs were that interested in money over killing they wouldn't shoot each other as often....

Ok, criminals can get guns in Japan whenever they wan. Fine, how many guns are in Japan?

 

[WildBillKelsoe]

Japan has a different demographic. Plus, they aren't afraid to employ the death penalty.

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with. Not for your average run of the mill criminal.

Rwanda doesn't allow private gun ownership, nor the death penalty. Her murder rate is 23%

 

[2aguy]

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with.

Keep telling yourself that.......they want money.....not killing.....if only our thugs were that interested in money over killing they wouldn't shoot each other as often....

Ok, criminals can get guns in Japan whenever they wan. Fine, how many guns are in Japan?

Don't know and it doesn't matter....the criminals get guns....

You can give every normal, law abiding Japanese citizen a gun and their crime rate wouldn't change....

they have an extremely low crime rate in all categories, not just violent crime...they are a law abiding culture......

Our thugs kill each other quickly and easily over the smallest insult...a lot of that is due to their being really young....with little control from the top of their organizations....

 

[2aguy]

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with.

Keep telling yourself that.......they want money.....not killing.....if only our thugs were that interested in money over killing they wouldn't shoot each other as often....

Ok, criminals can get guns in Japan whenever they wan. Fine, how many guns are in Japan?

Do you realize that we have 357 million guns in private hands and less than 8,124 of them were used in gun murder...that means that normal, law abiding people had 356,991,876 million guns, and did not use them to murder people...

And the criminals who used them....used them mainly on other criminals in very small, multi block areas of our inner cities...

So guns are not our problem...we use them incredibly responsibly...our problem is criminals who murder easily...unlike criminals in other countries...

 

[2aguy]

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with.

Keep telling yourself that.......they want money.....not killing.....if only our thugs were that interested in money over killing they wouldn't shoot each other as often....

Ok, criminals can get guns in Japan whenever they wan. Fine, how many guns are in Japan?

Do you think it is hard for criminals to get hand grenades in Japan as opposed to guns?


Handouts for Hand Grenades: Yakuza Gang War Leads to an Explosive Bounty

TOKYO -- Japan’s Fukuoka Prefecture Police have become the first in Japan to offer cash rewards to anyone who reports finding a hand grenade (or "pineapples" in yakuza slang) starting today, April 2. A long-running gang war in the prefecture has raised public fear in the area, and the handy hand-grenade has increasingly become the weapon of choice amongst rival gang members. As Japan has put into place increasingly harsher laws regulating the actions of the Japanese mafia, aka the yakuza, forcing many out of business--the remaining thugs are fighting viciously over what's left of the pie

When gang members aren't lobbing grenades or shooting at each other, they are shooting at the offices of companies trying to cut organized crime Last year, on Nov. 26, Toshihiro Uchino, the 72-year-old president of Hakushin Construction --which was trying to cut ties to local gangs---was shot to death outside his home in Kitakyushu.


The most violent of the groups and considered the primary user of hand grenades is the Kyushu Seidokai. The Kyushu Seidokai has expanded into Tokyo, setting up several front companies, and joined forces with Tadamasa Goto, a former Yamaguchi-gumi boss turned Buddhist priest, who has now re-emerged as a powerful player in Japan's underworld. Tokyo Police are also worried that "pineapples" may be thrown around the metropolis in the near future. "A coalition between Goto and the Kyushu Seido-kai doesn't bode well for the public safety," said a detective who works organized crime. "We’re not excited about the possibility of yakuza lobbing grenades into Tokyo offices and homes."

 

[HappyJoy]

In 2015 Japan used the death penalty a total of 3 times, in the US we executed 28. We have a little more than double their population.

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with. Not for your average run of the mill criminal.

Rwanda doesn't allow private gun ownership, nor the death penalty. Her murder rate is 23%

Rwanda has an unstable government and a history of civil wars. Why do you guys always look for outliers to prove a point? Why ignore all the countries with fewer guns and fewer murders?

But just the same, I'm not interesting in ridding the US of guns, I just want background checks to include mental illness.

 

[HappyJoy]

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with.

Keep telling yourself that.......they want money.....not killing.....if only our thugs were that interested in money over killing they wouldn't shoot each other as often....

Ok, criminals can get guns in Japan whenever they wan. Fine, how many guns are in Japan?

Do you realize that we have 357 million guns in private hands and less than 8,124 of them were used in gun murder...that means that normal, law abiding people had 356,991,876 million guns, and did not use them to murder people...

And the criminals who used them....used them mainly on other criminals in very small, multi block areas of our inner cities...

So guns are not our problem...we use them incredibly responsibly...our problem is criminals who murder easily...unlike criminals in other countries...

We have more gun murders period. Anyway, you two are going way overboard. I feel I have to keep explaining this to you, I'm not anti-gun I just want real background checks.

 

[2aguy]

We do not have their culture....and our police do not have their police powers, and our prosecutors do not have the powers of their prosecutors.....

You would not live in Japan....you couldn't stand their rules on behavior or the collective guilt their society places on the indivdual to keep them law abiding.

How does any of that explain them not having guns? I thought you guys always say criminals just ignore the law and you can't stop anything.

The Japanese criminals get guns when they want them.....they just don't use them as much or kill each other as often....their criminal sub culture is different from ours...our thugs kill each other and their victims more.....and that isn't access to guns, that is mind set.....

Obviously they can't get guns when they want them, they aren't there to begin with. Not for your average run of the mill criminal.

Rwanda doesn't allow private gun ownership, nor the death penalty. Her murder rate is 23%

Rwanda has an unstable government and a history of civil wars. Why do you guys always look for outliers to prove a point? Why ignore all the countries with fewer guns and fewer murders?

But just the same, I'm not interesting in ridding the US of guns, I just want background checks to include mental illness.

Germany in the 1920s wasn't an outlier....nor was Europe in the 20s......20 years later they marched 12 million people into gas chambers...modern nation states, with modern Universities, the rule of law, democratic institutions and science and phiolosophy......

Oh...and they disarmed their peoples after World War 1..........did them a lot of good....

except Switzerland....435,000 civilians under arms...never invaded, no holocaust...

Seems that is an outlier......