Attention all Catholic haters

[KevinWestern]

Is it so preposterous to think that a woman may be enthusiastic about her church organization and maybe want to take a lead role, and perhaps lead things up one day? You don't think the fact that they absolutely may not is a deterrent?

If a given member is unsatisfied they are free to join a different faith community, of course.

When your family attends a Catholic church, your husband, your friends, it's not that easy to walk out and leave.

You're fully aware of this.

A lot of women who may not like the structure are simply stuck because the alternative might break up a lot of important relationships.

 

[KevinWestern]

It's their tradition, what's that to you? There are sisters who have changed the world. Their names are household words.

Yes, true. However women are not allowed to ever - under any circumstance - be the leaders of the church (ie bishops, cardinals, popes).

I can see this as something that might be discouraging for a lady.

 

[Againsheila]

Catholicism is no place to be female. Why does the Catholic Church hate women?

Regards from Rosie

Are you kidding me? Give me one aspect of the life of a nun that doesn't appeal to you.

Growing old and dying with no help from the church or social security because the church opted out years ago and they don't have enough new nuns to support and take care of the old nuns.

 

[KevinWestern]

I had to come back to this one. Do you know what Deacons, Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals are???

They are SERVANTS, trained to be servants from childhood.

Is it possible that those who covet the offices of the Church they cannot have do not have the temperment for servanthood?

But Clement, the church has to be "run" and there are very important decisions involving the interpretation of the Bible, direction/strategy of the church overall, initiatives, etc, and if you are a passionate woman who has some great ideas for the Catholic church to proliferate, reach young people/etc you're out of luck!!

Sure, you can "give suggestions", but the fact of the matter is that you'll never ever (under any circumstance) have the opportunity to physically take the reigns (as a priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope) to enact those ideas in the community. You're always just "support"; the men hold the final decision making.

Again, I realize it's just tradition and I certainly don't think badly of people who are Catholic, however you asked why people sometimes don't like the church and I think the discrimination of women in leadership roles is a very fair point.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I had a glimpse of the inner workings of the Catholic church back in the late 1970's, when I started dating a woman who had just left "the community" as a nun, after 14 years. She told me that she had left, as did a priest, that she had been having an affair with for 3 years, when they both realized that they preferred sex to Catholic doctrine. After leaving, she moved to the town where I was living to be a room mate of another nun who had left a year before for the same reason. She was remarkably well adjusted and happy, and told me that she never had a moment's regret for her decision. She never lost her faith in god, just her belief in Catholic dogma.

 

[Clement]

I had to come back to this one. Do you know what Deacons, Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals are???

They are SERVANTS, trained to be servants from childhood.

Is it possible that those who covet the offices of the Church they cannot have do not have the temperment for servanthood?

But Clement, the church has to be "run" and there are very important decisions involving the interpretation of the Bible, direction/strategy of the church overall, initiatives, etc, and if you are a passionate woman who has some great ideas for the Catholic church to proliferate, reach young people/etc you're out of luck!!

Sure, you can "give suggestions", but the fact of the matter is that you'll never ever (under any circumstance) have the opportunity to physically take the reigns (as a priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope) to enact those ideas in the community. You're always just "support"; the men hold the final decision making.

Again, I realize it's just tradition and I certainly don't think badly of people who are Catholic, however you asked why people sometimes don't like the church and I think the discrimination of women in leadership roles is a very fair point.

Let me try this one more time: the church's "leaders" are SERVANTS. They started as acolytes, went to Subdeacon, Deacon, Priest, Bishop. They have devoted a lifetime of study and service to the church. Why should a woman be allowed to come into the church and "take the reins" (as you put it) just because she is a woman? Jesus said it himself - whoever wishes to be greatest among you must become a servant. (Matt. 20:26)

Whenever you see a Bishop, he was once a Deacon (which literally means "servant") and he is still a Deacon. Coveting the position of an Elder or a Doctor is not a servant attitude and it disqualifies you outright.

 

[KevinWestern]

Let me try this one more time: the church's "leaders" are SERVANTS. They started as acolytes, went to Subdeacon, Deacon, Priest, Bishop. They have devoted a lifetime of study and service to the church. Why should a woman be allowed to come into the church and "take the reins" (as you put it) just because she is a woman? Jesus said it himself - whoever wishes to be greatest among you must become a servant. (Matt. 20:26)

Whenever you see a Bishop, he was once a Deacon (which literally means "servant") and he is still a Deacon. Coveting the position of an Elder or a Doctor is not a servant attitude and it disqualifies you outright.

But is there a hierarchy in decision making, Clement? Are there decisions that are made regarding the church's overall strategy? Who makes those decisions?

I understand your point - they are "servants to God" - however they are also autonomous beings that actively run the organization. There is God's word, and then there is the man-made religious structure that was designed and built here on Earth. That needs to be actively run by human brains because (obviously) no one has a direct line of communication with God where he's clearly saying "ok now it's time to focus on this Charity, and you should go with Chase bank now because they're setup to provide the best services, etc".

My point is that women will never have an official, direct "say" on how the organization will be run. Never, under any circumstance whatsoever. They're out of the picture. That would kind of suck if you were a woman.

 

[Uncensored2008]

When your family attends a Catholic church, your husband, your friends, it's not that easy to walk out and leave.

You're fully aware of this.

A lot of women who may not like the structure are simply stuck because the alternative might break up a lot of important relationships.

The strongest Catholics I know are all women. They don't go because their husbands go - because their husband DON'T go.

This idea of the leftists that all organizations should consist of all leaders and no followers is utterly stupid.

I'm not a Catholic, but this particular attack is bullshit, and really stupid.

 

[KevinWestern]

A woman: I just had a revelation from God, and have some wonderful things to share with the community, and I need to start giving mass regularly and speaking to the parish directly.

A man: Well, you can't. Only men can do that. How about you tell me and I'll relay the info.

 

[KevinWestern]

When your family attends a Catholic church, your husband, your friends, it's not that easy to walk out and leave.

You're fully aware of this.

A lot of women who may not like the structure are simply stuck because the alternative might break up a lot of important relationships.

The strongest Catholics I know are all women. They don't go because their husbands go - because their husband DON'T go.

This idea of the leftists that all organizations should consist of all leaders and no followers is utterly stupid.

I'm not a Catholic, but this particular attack is bullshit, and really stupid.

What? Lol, when did I say that "everyone" had to be a leader?

I'm just saying if you're a woman the prospect of never being able to lead the parish, under any circumstances, is just a tad discouraging. That's a completely fair thing to say.

I think your response is rather stupid, quite frankly.

 

[Uncensored2008]

What? Lol, when did I say that "everyone" had to be a leader?

When you cried that a woman from the congregation should 'have a vision and lead." Sorry dude, that just isn't the structure.

I'm just saying if you're a woman the prospect of never being able to lead the parish, under any circumstances, is just a tad discouraging. That's a completely fair thing to say.

I think your response is rather stupid, quite frankly.

I'm a white man, I can NEVER lead the NAACP...

Boofuckinghoo.

 

[KevinWestern]

When you cried that a woman from the congregation should 'have a vision and lead." Sorry dude, that just isn't the structure.

If I was a woman, and part of an organization that my life was significantly tied to, it'd be a little upsetting to know that under no circumstances could I ever hold a position of leadership. It's a completely valid point. Obviously not saying only women should lead, or that it should be an equal split. It doesn't have to at all.

Quit yer bitchin dude.

I'm a white man, I can NEVER lead the NAACP...

Just an incredibly poor attempt at providing some sort of parallel example. The NAACP exists for the advancement of "colored people" and thus makes perfect sense for a "colored person" to lead it. The Catholic Church however doesn't exist solely for the advancement of men; rather it is all people.


.

 

[Uncensored2008]

If I was a woman, and part of an organization that my life was significantly tied to, it'd be a little upsetting to know that under no circumstances could I ever hold a position of leadership. It's a completely valid point. Obviously not saying only women should lead, or that it should be an equal split. It doesn't have to at all.

Quit yer bitchin dude.

I'm a white man, I can NEVER lead the NAACP...

Just an incredibly poor attempt at providing some sort of parallel example. The NAACP exists for the advancement of "colored people" and thus makes perfect sense for a "colored person" to lead it. The Catholic Church however doesn't exist solely for the advancement of men; rather it is all people.


.

The Catholic Church exists for the advancement of Catholic doctrine, amongst which are the teachings of Paul that men are to be head of the church.

If you don't like it, don't be a Catholic. The Foursquare have just the opposite view. Mary Baker Eddy may be more your cup of tea. You have lots of options.

 

[Clement]

But is there a hierarchy in decision making, Clement? Are there decisions that are made regarding the church's overall strategy? Who makes those decisions?

I am not RCC, but I get tired of hearing the bullshit people put out about them. Our church has a similar structure, and my wife is on the national council as a lay delegate. She really has a higher position than I do and I am clergy. How did she get it? She is very visible. She is in church every time the doors are open, she goes to all the conventions, she knows everybody and everybody knows her. She has done a lot for the church and the reality is they just want her to do more.

She didn't bulldoze her way into this position and she didn't ask for it. She was asked to serve because of her faithfulness. THAT's how you get these positions, you serve.

 

[KevinWestern]

The Catholic Church exists for the advancement of Catholic doctrine, amongst which are the teachings of Paul that men are to be head of the church.

If you don't like it, don't be a Catholic. The Foursquare have just the opposite view. Mary Baker Eddy may be more your cup of tea. You have lots of options.

I never demanded that the Catholic church should do or shouldn't do anything. It's a private organization and can say that "only monkeys" run the church if they wanted to. I really don't care.

But you realize - of course - that the OP asked "why all the hate towards Catholicism?" and I simply responded with an opinion on a policy that might get people upset about the religion. He directly asked for reasons, which I provided.

Now if this had been an OP about Catholics giving to charity and I came in here and started bitching about all the policies of the church I didn't agree with, then you'd have a point. However, since that's not the case you unfortunately do not.

,

 

[KevinWestern]

I am not RCC, but I get tired of hearing the bullshit people put out about them. Our church has a similar structure, and my wife is on the national council as a lay delegate. She really has a higher position than I do and I am clergy. How did she get it? She is very visible. She is in church every time the doors are open, she goes to all the conventions, she knows everybody and everybody knows her. She has done a lot for the church and the reality is they just want her to do more.

She didn't bulldoze her way into this position and she didn't ask for it. She was asked to serve because of her faithfulness. THAT's how you get these positions, you serve.

So let me clarify too that I absolutely do not consider the Catholic church as “hateful” towards women, and fully realize that there are going to be some positions of power that they can most definitely hold (like your wife), however (again) if a female feels compelled to lead a mass – whether it be by God’s will or some other force – she cannot. She’ll never be a bishop, cardinal, or pope either.

I’m really just playing devil’s advocate here.

If I’m a woman and see that at my friend’s church both sexes are leading the masses, both sexes are equally determining the structure/strategy of the church, both sexes are doing all these things is it unreasonable to think that perhaps she might feel a little “left out” within her own congregation? Perhaps she might think that the church considers women incapable of handling such roles as a church leader?

You get my point?

It may not bother all women, but it certainly bothers some (and thus is one reason why some people think badly of the church).

 

[Indofred]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534) was probably the father of Alessandro de' Medici (born in 1510, thirteen years before his election), whom he made Duke of Florence.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Somebody mentioned the Vatican Rag, so I thought it best to post an explanation:

 

[Clement]

So let me clarify too that I absolutely do not consider the Catholic church as “hateful” towards women, and fully realize that there are going to be some positions of power that they can most definitely hold (like your wife)...

But...

...however (again) if a female feels compelled to lead a mass – whether it be by God’s will or some other force – she cannot. She’ll never be a bishop, cardinal, or pope either.

I assure you that if a woman was compelled by God to lead a mass there is no force on earth that could stop her. It's the "some other force" part we wonder about.

I’m really just playing devil’s advocate here.

That is obvious.

If I’m a woman and see that at my friend’s church both sexes are leading the masses, both sexes are equally determining the structure/strategy of the church, both sexes are doing all these things is it unreasonable to think that perhaps she might feel a little “left out” within her own congregation? Perhaps she might think that the church considers women incapable of handling such roles as a church leader?

You get my point?

Personally, I believe the people who think that have little to no idea of what is involved in any of those things. It's a lot of time and a lot of hard work for very little (if any) reward. I think if many of the people who complain about these things, if they were allowed to have it their way, would not be any happier than they were before.

 

[FA_Q2]

I do not hate Catholics. I will tell you why I could never actually ascribe to their belief system though.

The number one reason in that the church itself is incredibly arrogant and to claim infallibility confounds me. NOTHING that is manmade or man driven is infallible. Nothing. If it involves man then it is not infallible. The pope himself is the pinnacle of the absurd (IMHO) concept.
Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

Catholics also have a rather strange set of ‘extras’ added onto the bible that directly contradict the teachings in the manner that I understand them. I realize that the Catholics see this differently or they would not have faith in those precepts but I would disagree with much of the interpretations that they use to justify some of those precepts. Confession is one such instance that has already been brought up in the manner that the church seems to think that they are integral to confession. I find that rather silly. Prayer to the various saints is another such concept that I find silly. It smacks of idolatry.

Lastly, you say that you do not want any posts on the molestation incidents and I find that rather silly as well. The problem here is not that there were priests that molested children – insane predators will weasel themselves into any position that they can – but rather that there is the perception (I believe correctly) that the church was ACTIVELY coving for these monsters. THAT is a MAJOR breech. On top of that, people place an enormous amount of faith and trust into those that they go to for worship guidance. Far more than is placed in the other places that you mention. Conversely, when they see a breach of that trust it is felt far more. Pointing to other places where molesters have invaded is not sufficient to cover for the fact that the church – supposedly an anchor for one’s faith and trust – is violating that morality.

You posted a link on Papal infallibility, didn't you read it?

Yes, I did. Would you like to actually say something or just post asinine comments?

That was a description of what the church means with papal infallibility and the common misconceptions that many people have of it. Even without those misconceptions the entire concept is utterly asinine. They are STILL demanding that the church and the pope are infallible in some aspects. They are not.

...but rather that there is the perception (I believe correctly) that the church was ACTIVELY coving for these monsters...

You do understand the seal of the confessional, right? Even if you admitted that you had murdered your wife, the priest can't go to the police with it.

So, you people want the priest to keep his mouth shut when it suits you, and blab when it suits you. Is that about right?

No. I want the church to not move priests around when they feared that they might get caught.

Perhaps you should cease stuffing words in my mouth. Keeping your trap shut out of confession DOES NOT mean that you are actively covering for these people. That is not an ACTIVE stance. Active requires that you take positive action to cover the tracks of the offenders. Back when this was all going down there were many reports of the church hierarchy moving these guys around in order to make the problem ‘go away.’

Perhaps if that is not so you can show it but that is the general perception that I and many others following the mess were left with.