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And some hold the belief is that the Holy Spirit has no power to effect that inward spiritual change from rebel to obedience in the soul of a child being baptized? (Catholics define sanctification of the soul as a supernatural gift given by God through the power of the Holy Spirit who infuses to the soul the love of God.)A baby cannot do that.
And some hold the belief is that the Holy Spirit has no power to effect that inward spiritual change from rebel to obedience in the soul of a child being baptized? (Catholics define sanctification of the soul as a supernatural gift given by God through the power of the Holy Spirit who infuses to the soul the love of God.)
No, the Bible says nothing against baptizing babies and indicates approval. That has been shown numerous times. Further, the Bible also states the Holy Spirit blows where it wills--it takes no magic words from a human to start the Holy Spirit in motion. When one is baptized, one also receives the Holy Spirit, and thus regeneration (Catholics say 'sanctification') begins. Those non-Catholic Christians who want their children to wait, can have their children wait. While Catholics may not follow along, we do understand your reasoning, and are puzzled by the refusal to understand ours.You're not getting it. It's not that God doesn't have the power to do that. It's that that's not what happens. Why? Because regeneration doesn't happen automatically. We've gone over this a number of times, it involves a decision on OUR part. Before we get saved, we have to understand our true spiritual condition and our need for God in the first place. A baby cannot do that.
Water baptism doesn't save a baby. It's just a ceremony, and an unbiblical one at that.
No, the Bible says nothing against baptizing babies and indicates approval. That has been shown numerous times.
Further, the Bible also states the Holy Spirit blows where it wills--it takes no magic words from a human to start the Holy Spirit in motion.
When one is baptized, one also receives the Holy Spirit, and thus regeneration (Catholics say 'sanctification') begins. Those non-Catholic Christians who want their children to wait, can have their children wait. While Catholics may not follow along, we do understand your reasoning, and are puzzled by the refusal to understand ours.
We never tell our children they have to wait to join the Body of Christ. How odd that you would even think that.
If I had 5 min. before someone died, the first thing I would ask is, "Do you know Jesus?". If they said, "No", I would tell them that Jesus died on the cross to pay for their sins, so that they could spend an eternity with God in Heaven. "Would you like to meet Jesus? Then tell Him this".Let's say that there was a car accident, and you happened to see the whole thing, and you pulled over and found someone lying on the pavement, about to die at any moment
Biblical Truth The Light of God’s Word | Topic | New Catechism Catechism of the Catholic Church (1994) |
The Bible only is the Standard for Truth “....the scripture cannot be broken.” John. 10:35 “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.” John. 17:17 “That ye might learn in us not to think...above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” 1 Corinthians 4:6 “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs. 30:6 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered...” Mark. 7:13 | The Basis of Truth | Truth is based on Scripture, Tradition, and the Pope “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other.” Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) Para 80 And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. CCC Para 81 “As a result the [Roman Catholic] Church...does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.” CCC Para 82 “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such.” CCC Para 891 |
Salvation is by Grace Alone Through Faith “Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:24 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9 “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” Rom 5:17 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us...” Titus 3:5-6 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Galatians 2:21 | Salvation by Grace Alone | For Salvation Grace becomes merely a help and is given through the sacraments of the Church “Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.” CCC Para2021 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. ’Sacramental grace’ is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. CCC Para1129 “One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience.” CCC Para 1493 |
Faith is the Gift of God and comes by the Word of God “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 16:31 “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.” Philippians 1:29 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” Romans 10:17 | Faith is God-given and sustained | Faith comes through the Mother Church “It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith.” CCC Para 168 “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother:...” Para 169 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother’” CCC Para 181 |
Christ’s Sacrifice was His alone and once offered “...Jesus said, ‘It is finished:...’” John. 19:30 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” Hebrews 10:12 “...when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” Hebrews. 1:3 | Christ’s Atonement Sufficient Finished Sacrifice | Christ’s Sacrifice continues, and is also of the Church In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner.” CCC Para 1367 “The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the [Roman Catholic] Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire.” CCC Para 1368 |
God is the Only All Holy One and the Only Source of Holiness “Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.” Isaiah. 6:3 “Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? For Thou only art Holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee...” Revelation. 15: 4 “There is none holy as the Lord: for there is none beside Thee: neither is there any rock like our God.” 1 Samuel.2:2 “I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” Isaiah 42:8 | God, the Only All Holy One | Mary is also the All-Holy One and the Source of Holiness “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All Holy One.” CCC Para 2677 “From the [Roman Catholic] Church he learns the example of holiness and recognizes its model and source in the all-holy Virgin Mary....” CCC Para 2030 “The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Panagia), and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature’” CCC Para 493 |
In Salvation the Lord Jesus Christ Alone Mediates “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy. 2:5 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name [Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12 | One Mediator | In Salvation “Mary” Also Mediates “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the [Roman Catholic] Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.” CCC Para 969 |
God Hates Idolatry “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything...Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.” Exodus. 20:4-5 “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even Ten Commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake...Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure....” Dt. 4:13, 15-16 “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” 1 John. 5:21 | Idolatry | The Roman Catholic Church Rationalizes Idolatry “The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype, and whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” CCC Para 2132 “Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified...the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new ‘economy’ of images.” CCC Para 2131 |
This Pagan Practice is Forbidden in the Bible “There shall not be found among you any one... that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer, [one who calls up the dead].” Deut. 18:10-11 “And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits [divination; contacting the dead], and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I Am the Lord your God.” Leviticus. 20:6-7 | Communion with the Dead | This Practice is Recommended by Rome “Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead...Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping “them, bur also of making their intercession for us effective.” CCC Para 958 “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer...Their intercession is their most exalted service...We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” CCC Para 2683 |
If I had 5 min. before someone died, the first thing I would ask is, "Do you know Jesus?". If they said, "No", I would tell them that Jesus died on the cross to pay for their sins, so that they could spend an eternity with God in Heaven. "Would you like to meet Jesus? Then tell Him this".
Lord Jesus, I'm a sinner. I believe you died for my sins, so I could live with you forever. Come into my heart and life, Jesus. I trust you as my Savior.
Because it's not biblical, and for the reason I already stated in my previous post. It's meaningless. It also misleads people, who wrongly think it saves.
Water baptism is a symbolic outward expression of an actual inward change. When a person comes to Christ, they are a new creation, and Jesus gave us the example, of getting baptized AFTER one has believed and repented. He got water baptized at age 30, not as a baby. He was dedicated by His parents as a baby, but that's something different.
It is a picture of going from death to life. The scriptures back that up. When you go under water and come up again, it is a picture of burial + resurrection, and NEW LIFE in Christ!
Again, a baby cannot understand any of that, or make the decision.
I believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient to redeem all of mankind. I also believe, based on what I read in the Scriptures, that the blood of Christ is a gift that must be accepted.So you don't believe everyone was redeemed through the blood of Christ?
Just curious. You said you grew up Catholic. Were you "baptized" as an infant?No, it hasn't. But if that's the case, please give an example of infant baptism in the bible. And please back yourself up scripturally that the bible indicates approval of it.
We have posted truckloads of scriptures showing that water baptism is tied to belief and repentance.
Yes, of course, no one has denied that. But you're doing something you do a lot, I've noticed. You take a scripture that is speaking about something, and then try to tie it to an entirely different matter, to back up RCC teachings.
Yes, of course God starts the process. But that doesn't mean salvation is automatic. That's not the way it works.
I mean, let's use some common sense here.
Someone who is baptized as a baby can (and often does) later, when they're older, totally reject God. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins were baptized as a baby. Does that make them saved? People who devote their life to rejecting God and trying to get others to reject God?
I think what has become clear is that you have a wrong understanding of what it means to be saved. I know that some non-Catholic Christians here (maybe Carl) might disagree with me on this, but when you're truly saved, you're saved.
You go from death to life. You don't go back and forth. It's a one-time thing... that's what the very word "saved" indicates, or else the word itself wouldn't make sense.
Like a newborn baby cannot go back into the womb, a person who is born spiritually cannot go back to being unborn.
You cannot lose your salvation.
Now I know what the response to this is going to be, by the people who don't believe this. But for the sake of time, I'm not going to preemptively reply to the usual arguments, but I will later, if this discussion is still going and if time permits.
You are making the decision for someone else. That is not how it works. Each person has to receive the gift by their OWN decision. Not their parents.
Let me ask you this. If you really believe that infant baptism is that baby getting saved by the Holy Spirit, then what about the millions (or billions) of babies who don't get baptized? Are they unsaved? If those non-Catholic babies die, do they go to heaven, in your view?
See, this is what I meant when I said the Catholic idea on salvation is completely different than the Christian view. And that is why I have stated that we belong to two different religions.
Just curious. You said you grew up Catholic. Were you "baptized" as an infant?
Just curious.Yes. Why do you ask?
Just curious.
The rapture is biblical:Really? Not biblical. Do you believe in the rapture which isn't biblical or in literal Exodus or Genesis?
One thing would be saying that the 3rd Commandment (4th if you're non-Catholic) doesn't have to be observed.There is nothing that Catholics do that seriously contradicts Scripture. It just is not true.
Really? Not biblical. Do you believe in the rapture which isn't biblical or in literal Exodus or Genesis?
The rapture is biblical:
“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also"
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
The words ek and harpazo are used. They mean:
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away.
They reason for the rapture is because we are not appointed to God's wrath, and make no mistake, God's wrath is coming.
Then you must believe that God has effectively overlooked everyone's sins.I believe that the blood of Christ is sufficient to redeem all of mankind. I also believe, based on what I read in the Scriptures, that the blood of Christ is a gift that must be accepted.
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
That means accepting Him is a choice. God is a gentleman and will NOT force Himself on anyone. If someone does not want to be with God, they will have all eternity to be without Him.
The rapture is biblical:
“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also"
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
The words ek and harpazo are used. They mean:
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away.
They reason for the rapture is because we are not appointed to God's wrath, and make no mistake, God's wrath is coming.
