Christian friends of gays and lesbians

[Samson]

And what does that matter?

When this issue is settled, if the term settled on is "gay marriage", then the first church that denies a homosexual couple its facilities will be sued for denying them couple its "constitutional rights".

If the term is civil union, there will not be a "constitutional right" to be married. Marriage will be a religious rite and churches that believe homosexuality is a sin will have legal grounds to stand on when it comes to saying, no.

Immie

Dear Immie: It is absurd to conclude, when TODAY a church denies HETEROSEXUAL COUPLES their facilities, and is not sued, that a church will be sued TOMORROW for denying HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES their facilities.

Dear Samson, I disagree.

There has been a long standing fued between the gay community and conservative churches. It will not end the day "gay marriage" becomes the law of the land. Gay Marriage will be a baby step in the fight. It will not be the end of the war that activists are waging against conservatives and conservative churches.

Immie

You're extrapolating into the twilight zone because one gay couple filed a complaint in 2007that didn't materialize into anything.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Honestly, if the solution to getting the right wing Christians off our backs is to call eveyone's civil marriage 'civil union' I'm all for it.

Let the term marriage stay in the churches or social networks.

It's the civil rights we want.

 

[Immanuel]

Your concern is a paranoia. There is no evidence the churches would be sued. Civil marriage equality eliminates that concern.

No evidence?

Are you serious? Did you miss this link?

Lesbian Couple Files Complaint against Church for Refusing Civil Union Ceremony

That right there is proof that you are wrong.

Immie

It's not like it's prevalent though...

The 1st Amendment would ultimately hold up.

Maybe for a while, but eventually, a good lawyer would hit the right buttons after so much trial and error that it would fall.

Immie

 

[dilloduck]

Honestly, if the solution to getting the right wing Christians off our backs is to call eveyone's civil marriage 'civil union' I'm all for it.

Let the term marriage stay in the churches or social networks.

It's the civil rights we want.

then get them-----which one don't you have ?

 

[Immanuel]

If you let gays and lesbians get marriage licenses you wont' have a problem. Churches can continue to discriminate with their 'blessings' all they want.

Bologna. The suit against the NJ church proves you wrong.

Immie

NJ doesn't get gay people marry.

It did for a while but then the law changed or was struck down. Just like what happened in California.

This happened while it was legal.

You can check my facts on that, but I am pretty sure that was how it went down.

Immie

 

[DiveCon]

Honestly, if the solution to getting the right wing Christians off our backs is to call eveyone's civil marriage 'civil union' I'm all for it.

Let the term marriage stay in the churches or social networks.

It's the civil rights we want.

thank you for FINALLY seeing the point

 

[Valerie]

And what does that matter?

When this issue is settled, if the term settled on is "gay marriage", then the first church that denies a homosexual couple its facilities will be sued for denying them couple its "constitutional rights".

If the term is civil union, there will not be a "constitutional right" to be married. Marriage will be a religious rite and churches that believe homosexuality is a sin will have legal grounds to stand on when it comes to saying, no.

Immie

Dear Immie: It is absurd to conclude, when TODAY a church denies HETEROSEXUAL COUPLES their facilities, and is not sued, that a church will be sued TOMORROW for denying HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES their facilities.

Dear Samson, I disagree.

There has been a long standing fued between the gay community and conservative churches. It will not end the day "gay marriage" becomes the law of the land. Gay Marriage will be a baby step in the fight. It will not be the end of the war that activists are waging against conservatives and conservative churches.

Immie

I understand your fear but I really think once legal equality is realized any passion behind that notion from the gay community will be minimal...And certainly the separation of Church and State stands regardless.

 

[Immanuel]

I am confident that homosexual activists will seek to force their agenda on religious institutions and win when it get to SCOTUS.

Immie

Based on what though ?

Their "constitutional" right to marry and the fact that conservative churches are withholding those rights from them. The fact that there is a difference between civil and religious marriage won't matter in regards to the lawsuits.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Honestly, if the solution to getting the right wing Christians off our backs is to call eveyone's civil marriage 'civil union' I'm all for it.

Let the term marriage stay in the churches or social networks.

It's the civil rights we want.

then get them-----which one don't you have ?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

 

[dilloduck]

Honestly, if the solution to getting the right wing Christians off our backs is to call eveyone's civil marriage 'civil union' I'm all for it.

Let the term marriage stay in the churches or social networks.

It's the civil rights we want.

then get them-----which one don't you have ?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

in which state ?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I am confident that homosexual activists will seek to force their agenda on religious institutions and win when it get to SCOTUS.

Immie

Based on what though ?

Their "constitutional" right to marry and the fact that conservative churches are withholding those rights from them. The fact that there is a difference between civil and religious marriage won't matter in regards to the lawsuits.

Immie

Let me ask you this. What will get the conservative Churches off our backs?

 

[Valerie]

I am confident that homosexual activists will seek to force their agenda on religious institutions and win when it get to SCOTUS.

Immie

Based on what though ?

Their "constitutional" right to marry and the fact that conservative churches are withholding those rights from them. The fact that there is a difference between civil and religious marriage won't matter in regards to the lawsuits.

Immie

But if all couples are already considered legally married, on what grounds would anyone stand asking the State to impose upon the Church ?

 

[Immanuel]

That won't happen. There are two stages in marrying. For people who want ceremonies they get the ceremony AFTER the license. So in fact, it is the STATE that is marrying them.


I am an activist. I am the activist monster you fear. I am telling you I could care less about what the Churches do.

Gay and lesbians will shop around. Believe me no one wants to break down a churches door. We want a license.

New Jersey allowed gay marriage and an activist couple went after a church that refused to allow them to get married on their grounds and you want to say it won't happen?

Are you nuts?

Immie

We'd have to check the dates on that. If I'm wrong, then I stand corrected.

There was a thread... okay several threads... on the site I was on at the time about this suit. I am pretty certain the way that it went down was that this couple at the time had the legal right to "marry" and wanted to have their ceremony on the grounds of the church's park. Evidently there is a beautiful area overlooking the beach and the couple wanted their wedding there... or they simply wanted to force the churches compliance /shrug.

The church refused.

My understanding was that one of the reasons the lawsuit was allowed to go forward was that the grounds were incorporated separately from the church and it allowed an opening to pierce the corporate veil.

I do not recall the outcome of the lawsuit.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Hello.

It's not about the church ceremonies. It's about the legal status.

HELLLLOOOOOO!

To you it is about the legal status.

I think I remember earlier in the thread you stated you did not speak for the entire community.

HELLLLLLLLOOOOOOOO! Anyone home?

Immie

Then stop making me responsible for some stupid couple in NJ. I hope they lose their lawsuit.

When did I say you were responsible for it?

You keep telling me the community would never do such a thing, but I can show you that in at least one instance they tried.

By the way, I highly doubt the couple is stupid. Maybe hard headed but I doubt they are stupid.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

then get them-----which one don't you have ?

Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

in which state ?

Most states do not allow gays and lesbians to marry. Even in the states where it is legal the federal rights don't accompany the marriage. Most of what is listed above is not available for gay couples in any state. If you are in a same-sex marriage in one of the sixe states where same-sex marriage is allowed (Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, California and Vermont) or a domestic partnership or civil union in any of the states that offer those relationship options, none of the benefits of marriage under federal law will apply to you, because the federal government does not recognize these same-sex relationships. For example, you may not file joint federal income tax returns with your partner, even if your state allows you to file jointly. And other federal benefits, such as Social Security death benefits and COBRA continuation insurance coverage, may not apply

 

[Immanuel]

Dear Immie: It is absurd to conclude, when TODAY a church denies HETEROSEXUAL COUPLES their facilities, and is not sued, that a church will be sued TOMORROW for denying HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES their facilities.

Dear Samson, I disagree.

There has been a long standing fued between the gay community and conservative churches. It will not end the day "gay marriage" becomes the law of the land. Gay Marriage will be a baby step in the fight. It will not be the end of the war that activists are waging against conservatives and conservative churches.

Immie

You're extrapolating into the twilight zone because one gay couple filed a complaint in 2007that didn't materialize into anything.

The point is that I was told... IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN. Yet, there is proof that it has happened at least once, probably more and I am convinced that phrasing the law, "gay marriage" will help the case against the church.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Dear Samson, I disagree.

There has been a long standing fued between the gay community and conservative churches. It will not end the day "gay marriage" becomes the law of the land. Gay Marriage will be a baby step in the fight. It will not be the end of the war that activists are waging against conservatives and conservative churches.

Immie

You're extrapolating into the twilight zone because one gay couple filed a complaint in 2007that didn't materialize into anything.

The point is that I was told... IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN. Yet, there is proof that it has happened at least once, probably more and I am convinced that phrasing the law, "gay marriage" will help the case against the church.

Immie

It's still paranoia.

 

[Samson]

Honestly, if the solution to getting the right wing Christians off our backs is to call eveyone's civil marriage 'civil union' I'm all for it.

Let the term marriage stay in the churches or social networks.

It's the civil rights we want.

then get them-----which one don't you have ?

Tax Benefits

Estate Planning Benefits

Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits

Death Benefits

Family Benefits

Housing Benefits


Consumer Benefits


Other Legal Benefits and Protections

Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
.

Marriage: Its really about the BENEFITS.

Queer marriage will make spousal, and family employment benefits obsolete.

 

[Immanuel]

Honestly, if the solution to getting the right wing Christians off our backs is to call eveyone's civil marriage 'civil union' I'm all for it.

Let the term marriage stay in the churches or social networks.

It's the civil rights we want.

Getting "right wing Christians" off your backs? Did I read that right?

The way I see it is getting the gay community off our backs and that is why I am all for it.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

HELLLLOOOOOO!

To you it is about the legal status.

I think I remember earlier in the thread you stated you did not speak for the entire community.

HELLLLLLLLOOOOOOOO! Anyone home?

Immie

Then stop making me responsible for some stupid couple in NJ. I hope they lose their lawsuit.

When did I say you were responsible for it?

You keep telling me the community would never do such a thing, but I can show you that in at least one instance they tried.

By the way, I highly doubt the couple is stupid. Maybe hard headed but I doubt they are stupid.

Immie

Here's the story. Yea, this gay couple really seem like monsters.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486340