Zone1 Do most Jews believe they killed Jesus?

[theHawk]

as far as I understand----Daniel writes in a manner that
besides being in aramaic----is so arcane that it defies
interpretation------it's there----but not considered "divinely
inspired"---or so mysterious-that it is best left undissected ????

So it’s not in the Hebrew Bible?

 

[theHawk]

as far as I understand----Daniel writes in a manner that
besides being in aramaic----is so arcane that it defies
interpretation------it's there----but not considered "divinely
inspired"---or so mysterious-that it is best left undissected ????

So because you think some or all of his passages are “arcane” or “defies interpretation“, then we should disregard it, because irosie is a higher authority than the Jews of 2000+ years ago that considered it part of their religious text.

 

[rosends]

Are you claiming Daniel was a liar?

Is his book not in the Hebrew Bible?

Is he a heretic?

His text in the Jewish canon is not in the section of "Prophets" but in "Writings." His function was not as a prophet nor was his text designed to be a book of prophecy.

 

[theHawk]

His text in the Jewish canon is not in the section of "Prophets" but in "Writings." His function was not as a prophet nor was his text designed to be a book of prophecy.

So you are claiming he was lying?

His book is in the Hebrew Bible, but you have taken it upon yourself to disregard certain passages, and to tell others to disregard it….because you have been given authority to do so?

 

[theHawk]

The so-called Jews here still cannot refute the following passages:


Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Will heal the blind, deaf, lame (Isaiah 35:5)
Will be given sovereign power and authority, every nation will serve him. Kingdom will have no end (Daniel 7:13)
Will bring an end to sin (Dan 9:24)
Will defeat death (Job 19:23-27)
He will be silent before his accusers (Psalm 38:12-13)
Will establish a New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34)

So even though Jesus healed the sick, and was raised from the dead, and opened the gates to heaven in Sheol, he isn’t divine or the Messiah.

So why don’t modern day Jews follow Mosaic Law today?
Why aren’t they putting sexual deviants to death as Mosaic Law commands?

 

[rosends]

So you are claiming he was lying?

His book is in the Hebrew Bible, but you have taken it upon yourself to disregard certain passages, and to tell others to disregard it….because you have been given authority to do so?

I don't recall saying he was lying. Can you show me what I said that made you draw that conclusion?

What passages have I disregarded? All I have done is reference the "higher authority [of] the Jews of 2000+ years ago that considered it part of their religious text"

 

[rosends]

The so-called Jews here still cannot refute the following passages:


Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Will heal the blind, deaf, lame (Isaiah 35:5)
Will be given sovereign power and authority, every nation will serve him. Kingdom will have no end (Daniel 7:13)
Will bring an end to sin (Dan 9:24)
Will defeat death (Job 19:23-27)
He will be silent before his accusers (Psalm 38:12-13)
Will establish a New Covenant (Jer 31:31-34)

So even though Jesus healed the sick, and was raised from the dead, and opened the gates to heaven in Sheol, he isn’t divine or the Messiah.

So why don’t modern day Jews follow Mosaic Law today?
Why aren’t they putting sexual deviants to death as Mosaic Law commands?

You are taking verses that aren't messianic prophecies and deciding they are. Why are you more of an authority than Jews of 2000+ years ago who didn't see them as messianic prophecies?

Can you show me any mention of the messiah in Isaiah 35:5?
What about in Job? Why do you decide that it is about a messianic person or era? The text doesn't say that and Jews for 2000+ years haven't seen it as such. Are you a higher authority than they?

You clearly don't understand anything about Jewish law and biblical text but have decided that your cherry picked verses mean what you want them to mean. But you are not the authority on this so why should anyone listen to you?

 

[theHawk]

I don't recall saying he was lying. Can you show me what I said that made you draw that conclusion?

What passages have I disregarded? All I have done is reference the "higher authority [of] the Jews of 2000+ years ago that considered it part of their religious text"

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] comingwith the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

[theHawk]

What about in Job? Why do you decide that it is about a messianic person or era?

Out of all of Job’s words, he proclaimed this should be inscribed on rock as to remain forever, that is how important this passage is to Job:

“Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!
25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.”

 

[rosends]

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] comingwith the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Yes, Daniel had a dream. In it he imagined a future with a series of kings and kingdoms and only after the last one is destroyed does any righteous leader take his place. At that time, "and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

Clearly this hasn't happened. Your point?

 

[rosends]

Out of all of Job’s words, he proclaimed this should be inscribed on rock as to remain forever, that is how important this passage is to Job:

“Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!
25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.”

Yeah, Job was suffering but still believed God would save him. So?

 

[theHawk]

Can you show me any mention of the messiah in Isaiah 35:5?

So who heals the deaf and blind then? You?

 

[irosie91]

So because you think some or all of his passages are “arcane” or “defies interpretation“, then we should disregard it, because irosie is a higher authority than the Jews of 2000+ years ago that considered it part of their religious text.

Nope----lots of stuff gets INCLUDED that is controversial----but no one ever asked
my opinion. I give you what I believe is the opinion of jewish scholars from BACK
IN THE DAY

 

[theHawk]

Yes, Daniel had a dream. In it he imagined a future with a series of kings and kingdoms and only after the last one is destroyed does any righteous leader take his place. At that time, "and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

Clearly this hasn't happened. Your point?

See Revelations. It will happen in the second coming.

 

[rosends]

So who heals the deaf and blind then? You?

When the people recognize God and listen to the words of the prophets their ears and eyes will open. As was written over 1000 years ago, "Those who were blind, not to recognize My fear upon them. Who did not hearken to the voice of the prophets until now, will be opened and unstopped, for I will give them a proper spirit to fear Me. He says this concerning Israel, whom he called blind and deaf, as the matter is stated (infra 42:18) “You deaf ones, hearken, etc.”"

 

[rosends]

See Revelations. It will happen in the second coming.

"Revelations"? That's not in the Jewish texts, nor is the concept of a second coming. Who made "Revelations" an authority over the Jews of 2000+ years ago?

 

[theHawk]

Yeah, Job was suffering but still believed God would save him. So?

What?

He is saying that the redeemer in flesh and will stand on Earth.

 

[irosie91]

What?

He is saying that the redeemer in flesh and will stand on Earth.

Job said that? you got the verse?

 

[rosends]

What?

He is saying that the redeemer in flesh and will stand on Earth.

You should read then entire section. Job is pointing out how he has suffered and how even his friends are persecuting him ("All my trusted friends abhor me: and they whom I love are turned against me." and "Why do you, like God, persecute me, and are not satisfied with my flesh?")
He is asking that his story be written about HIS suffering so that someone will stand up for him after he dies, against all those who have persecuted him.

 

[theHawk]

"Revelations"? That's not in the Jewish texts, nor is the concept of a second coming. Who made "Revelations" an authority over the Jews of 2000+ years ago?

Sure there is, Job spoke of it. The redeemer will be on Earth and there will be judgement.

Just because everything was not revealed to Jewish prophets up front doesn’t mean it wasn’t a part of God’s plan from the start. You seem to think God revealed everything to prophets and leave no possibility of future prophets.

You reject the idea of a New Covenant yet it is in Jeremiah. Strangely you don’t even practice Mosaic Law as perceived by the previous covenant, you just pick and choose which laws to practice.