Do You Believe The War On Drugs Should Be Terminated?

[Disir]

Are you claiming that people are going to prison for smoking a blunt?

While I'm sure there are some places where one could be sentenced to prison for possession of a single blunt it certainly is not commonpace. However, even if you are not sent to prison for that one joint, while your background could be spotless and worthy of praise if you are arrested by some sadistic cop who chooses to book and process you for it your future will be forever stigmatized by a criminal record.

You could have two university degrees and an otherwise pristine past but with a drug arrest in your background you will be very lucky to end up with a fairly decent job but with nothing close to your potential. All it takes to ruin your life is to be caught with few grams of dried plant material on your person.

This happens to hundreds of peaceful, otherwise law-abiding Americans every day and there are many thousands of marijuana arrests every year in the U.S. -- every one of which costs the taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars.

Expungement and Criminal Records: State-Specific Information - FindLaw

K

 

[Disir]

They are using a product I really don't care about
They are selling a product I really don't care about

Why do I pay so much to keep them in prison?

Are you claiming that people are going to prison for smoking a blunt?

Where did I say that?
However, people are in prison for using drugs

Why do I care if they use drugs?
Why do I care if someone sells them drugs to use?

For clarification, are you saying you do not care about those involved in drug trafficking then?

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

 

[Jarlaxle]

You want to bomb a town in the US and you think 'the popular option', which is not to bomb a town in the US, is wrong.

Not an entire town. Directed strikes against individual targets in EVERY town. Whether these are ground raids, airborne/helicopter assaults or drone strikes being determined on an individual basis.

Hmm, oh well, yeah, that explains it.

Dude, haven't you realized yet that he is a psychopath?

 

[rightwinger]

They are using a product I really don't care about
They are selling a product I really don't care about

Why do I pay so much to keep them in prison?

Are you claiming that people are going to prison for smoking a blunt?

Where did I say that?
However, people are in prison for using drugs

Why do I care if they use drugs?
Why do I care if someone sells them drugs to use?

For clarification, are you saying you do not care about those involved in drug trafficking then?

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

 

[Disir]

That's rich... Read our convo again. I make points and you say NO that doesn't work. As stimulating as that is and as original as your "go educate yourself" insult is, I've made valid points I don't really care to explain myself further to those with closed minds. You should take your own advise if you actually want to engage in a substantive conversation

And that's three. Let's recap. My initial post (#8) makes two points

The Harm Reduction Method. You will never see that here fully implemented. If there is one thing that is true, this country will operate half-assed and then bitch cry when they don't see the same results. People talk about treatment but they don't delve into it--as if there is some unified plan. The only unified plan is to do the least that can be done.

I'm all for decriminalizing smaller amounts but I am absolutely for nailing larger amounts. I am not ok with legalization.

In post #13 you respond with

Legalization not only funds education and rehabilitation but it also adds regulation to the quality of product and dramatically hinders the underground/black market.

Do you really think just throwing poor addicts in jail is more effective?

It is very clear that (1)you did not read my post at all because you wanted to hear yourself talk and wanted to make a sale, (2) you are a dick or (3) you are low functioning. I addressed treatment and I addressed decriminalization (your poor addicts in jail) in my first post.
I ignore you because that's a whole lotta nonsense you got going on. I respond to Mike.
You pick it up again in post # 48.

I agree that most government programs leave much to be desired and never seem to fire on all cylinders, however, even a half assed education and rehab program being substantially funded by the tax revenue made from the operation of drug businesses and sales, would be a vast improvement over our current situation. Not to mention the positive effects from clearing jails and defunding criminal organizations... I see a tremendous amount of Pro's and very little Con's.

Let me help you out:
Start here:
Inside Colorado’s flourishing, segregated black market for pot

Pot Delivery Services Thriving In Colorado’s Black Market
Special report, 'Clearing the Haze:' Black market is thriving in Colorado

Start here for Harm Reduction

What is harm reduction? | Harm Reduction International

Are you claiming that people are going to prison for smoking a blunt?

Where did I say that?
However, people are in prison for using drugs

Why do I care if they use drugs?
Why do I care if someone sells them drugs to use?

For clarification, are you saying you do not care about those involved in drug trafficking then?

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

I'm not interested in how you feel. Get the fuck off your ass if you have something to demonstrate.

 

[WildBillKelsoe]

If not, why not?

If you believe there is a more intelligent and potentially effective way to deal with the abuse of recreational drugs, tell us what you have in mind.

Do you believe some recreational drugs can be used without risk of seriously harmful effects? If so, which ones?

We'll be a nation of zombies and the good folks aren't zombies, or dealers will live in fear of the zombies and the dealers.

Open borders, legalized drugs, an unlimited welfare system;, it spells soon for the country as we know it.

 

[WildBillKelsoe]

Are you claiming that people are going to prison for smoking a blunt?

Where did I say that?
However, people are in prison for using drugs

Why do I care if they use drugs?
Why do I care if someone sells them drugs to use?

For clarification, are you saying you do not care about those involved in drug trafficking then?

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

El Salvador, Colombia, Guatemala, Mexico, Holland and Afghanistan.

 

[rightwinger]

We have 2.2 million in prison right now. It is obvious the war on drugs isn't working

There are many threats to our society worse than drugs

 

[rightwinger]

Where did I say that?
However, people are in prison for using drugs

Why do I care if they use drugs?
Why do I care if someone sells them drugs to use?

For clarification, are you saying you do not care about those involved in drug trafficking then?

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

El Salvador, Colombia, Guatemala, Mexico, Holland and Afghanistan.

?

 

[WildBillKelsoe]

We have 2.2 million in prison right now. It is obvious the war on drugs isn't working

There are many threats to our society worse than drugs

Or, maybe those people shouldn't have broken the law. Anyone ever thought of that?

 

[Disir]

 

[MikeK]

Or, maybe those people shouldn't have broken the law. Anyone ever thought of that?

Some laws are simply unreasonable.

Haven't you had enough time to realize the existing drug laws are wholly counterproductive? It's been three decades since Reagan saw fit to resurrect and escalate Nixon's failed drug policy and what has it achieved? Drugs are not only more available now than they were when Reagan's folly started, they cost less. Yet we keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result -- which is one definition of insanity.

Obviously law-enforcement is not the way to go. It's like giving a moron a hammer and telling him to build something with it.

 

[Slade3200]

That's rich... Read our convo again. I make points and you say NO that doesn't work. As stimulating as that is and as original as your "go educate yourself" insult is, I've made valid points I don't really care to explain myself further to those with closed minds. You should take your own advise if you actually want to engage in a substantive conversation

And that's three. Let's recap. My initial post (#8) makes two points

The Harm Reduction Method. You will never see that here fully implemented. If there is one thing that is true, this country will operate half-assed and then bitch cry when they don't see the same results. People talk about treatment but they don't delve into it--as if there is some unified plan. The only unified plan is to do the least that can be done.

I'm all for decriminalizing smaller amounts but I am absolutely for nailing larger amounts. I am not ok with legalization.

In post #13 you respond with

Legalization not only funds education and rehabilitation but it also adds regulation to the quality of product and dramatically hinders the underground/black market.

Do you really think just throwing poor addicts in jail is more effective?

It is very clear that (1)you did not read my post at all because you wanted to hear yourself talk and wanted to make a sale, (2) you are a dick or (3) you are low functioning. I addressed treatment and I addressed decriminalization (your poor addicts in jail) in my first post.
I ignore you because that's a whole lotta nonsense you got going on. I respond to Mike.
You pick it up again in post # 48.

I agree that most government programs leave much to be desired and never seem to fire on all cylinders, however, even a half assed education and rehab program being substantially funded by the tax revenue made from the operation of drug businesses and sales, would be a vast improvement over our current situation. Not to mention the positive effects from clearing jails and defunding criminal organizations... I see a tremendous amount of Pro's and very little Con's.

Let me help you out:
Start here:
Inside Colorado’s flourishing, segregated black market for pot

Pot Delivery Services Thriving In Colorado’s Black Market
Special report, 'Clearing the Haze:' Black market is thriving in Colorado

Start here for Harm Reduction

What is harm reduction? | Harm Reduction International

Where did I say that?
However, people are in prison for using drugs

Why do I care if they use drugs?
Why do I care if someone sells them drugs to use?

For clarification, are you saying you do not care about those involved in drug trafficking then?

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

I'm not interested in how you feel. Get the fuck off your ass if you have something to demonstrate.

Ok, now we are talking! Glad you did some homework and thank you for the links. Interesting articles but weak support in regard to your points in this discussion. Your articles address some black market operations that are happening in Colorado. This is inevitable as there are always people that try to game the system but you can't deny that the legal enterprise is dramatically cutting into the undergrounds market share, and they will eventually be whittled down as legit businesses flourish. Despite some black market dealers getting out of paying taxes you can not deny these statistics:
- MJ possession arrests are down 84% and MJ dealing arrest are down 90% since 2010, saving the state millions in adjudication costs
- Violent crime went down by 2.2% ; Burglary down 9.5% ; Property crime decreased by 8.9%
- Tax revenue was over $40 million from Jan 2014 - Oct 2014 which funded adding healthcare professionals to schools and other grants.
- $8 million of tax revenue has gone towards youth prevention and community bases programs.
- Colorado has the fastest growing economy in the U.S. and unemployment is at a 6 year low.

Are you starting to get the picture?? If this was adopted at a national level we would put the smugglers out of business as the majority of dealers would much rather have a legit business than risk getting arrested. We would save Billions on crime enforcement, prosecution, and jailing... And best of all we would have Billions in tax revenue to put towards bettering our schools and communities. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

Here's a link incase you question the validity of my data.
https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/de...juana_Legalization_One_Year_Status_Report.pdf

 

[Disir]

That's rich... Read our convo again. I make points and you say NO that doesn't work. As stimulating as that is and as original as your "go educate yourself" insult is, I've made valid points I don't really care to explain myself further to those with closed minds. You should take your own advise if you actually want to engage in a substantive conversation

And that's three. Let's recap. My initial post (#8) makes two points

The Harm Reduction Method. You will never see that here fully implemented. If there is one thing that is true, this country will operate half-assed and then bitch cry when they don't see the same results. People talk about treatment but they don't delve into it--as if there is some unified plan. The only unified plan is to do the least that can be done.

I'm all for decriminalizing smaller amounts but I am absolutely for nailing larger amounts. I am not ok with legalization.

In post #13 you respond with

Legalization not only funds education and rehabilitation but it also adds regulation to the quality of product and dramatically hinders the underground/black market.

Do you really think just throwing poor addicts in jail is more effective?

It is very clear that (1)you did not read my post at all because you wanted to hear yourself talk and wanted to make a sale, (2) you are a dick or (3) you are low functioning. I addressed treatment and I addressed decriminalization (your poor addicts in jail) in my first post.
I ignore you because that's a whole lotta nonsense you got going on. I respond to Mike.
You pick it up again in post # 48.

I agree that most government programs leave much to be desired and never seem to fire on all cylinders, however, even a half assed education and rehab program being substantially funded by the tax revenue made from the operation of drug businesses and sales, would be a vast improvement over our current situation. Not to mention the positive effects from clearing jails and defunding criminal organizations... I see a tremendous amount of Pro's and very little Con's.

Let me help you out:
Start here:
Inside Colorado’s flourishing, segregated black market for pot

Pot Delivery Services Thriving In Colorado’s Black Market
Special report, 'Clearing the Haze:' Black market is thriving in Colorado

Start here for Harm Reduction

What is harm reduction? | Harm Reduction International

For clarification, are you saying you do not care about those involved in drug trafficking then?

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

I'm not interested in how you feel. Get the fuck off your ass if you have something to demonstrate.

Ok, now we are talking! Glad you did some homework and thank you for the links. Interesting articles but weak support in regard to your points in this discussion. Your articles address some black market operations that are happening in Colorado. This is inevitable as there are always people that try to game the system but you can't deny that the legal enterprise is dramatically cutting into the undergrounds market share, and they will eventually be whittled down as legit businesses flourish. Despite some black market dealers getting out of paying taxes you can not deny these statistics:
- MJ possession arrests are down 84% and MJ dealing arrest are down 90% since 2010, saving the state millions in adjudication costs
- Violent crime went down by 2.2% ; Burglary down 9.5% ; Property crime decreased by 8.9%
- Tax revenue was over $40 million from Jan 2014 - Oct 2014 which funded adding healthcare professionals to schools and other grants.
- $8 million of tax revenue has gone towards youth prevention and community bases programs.
- Colorado has the fastest growing economy in the U.S. and unemployment is at a 6 year low.

Are you starting to get the picture?? If this was adopted at a national level we would put the smugglers out of business as the majority of dealers would much rather have a legit business than risk getting arrested. We would save Billions on crime enforcement, prosecution, and jailing... And best of all we would have Billions in tax revenue to put towards bettering our schools and communities. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

Here's a link incase you question the validity of my data.
https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/de...juana_Legalization_One_Year_Status_Report.pdf

First up: crime.

Lately legalization advocates have been cheering numbers that show a decline in crime. There are literally hundreds of articles that have been written with this narrative. But an honest look at the statistics shows an increase — not decrease — in Denver crime rates.

Crime is tracked through two reporting mechanisms: the National Incident Based Reporting System (NIBRS), which examines about 35 types of crime, and the FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR). The FBI UCR only captures about 50 percent of all crimes in Denver, so the NIBRS is generally regarded as more credible. The Denver Police Department (DPD) uses NIBRS categories to examine an array of crime statistics, since it is the more detailed and comprehensive source of numbers.

The Denver Police statistics show that summing across all crime types — about 35 in all — the crime rate is up almost 7 percent compared with the same period last year. Interestingly, crimes such as public drunkenness are up 237 percent, and drug violations are up 20 percent.

So why are advocates claiming a crime drop? Easy: They blended part of the FBI data with part of the DPD/NIBRS data to cook up numbers they wished to see. When one picks the Part I data from UCR and uses DPD/NIBRS property-crime numbers only while studiously avoiding the DPD/NIBRS data on all other crimes, one can indeed manufacture the appearance of a decline. As one can see here, even when using the FBI UCR numbers — in their entirety — crime has risen.

A report commissioned by the National Association of Drug Court Professionals puts it nicely:

When a closer look at the data is undertaken, a different picture — something other than “crime is down” — appears to emerge. ...

[L]egalization proponents should not infer causality regarding the downward trend observable when isolating just the UCR’s Part I crime index.

When I asked the president of the Colorado Drug Investigators Association, Ernie Martinez, about these statistics, he urged me to look at the crimes that have been happening in connection to marijuana — even after legalization:
Crime Is Up in Colorado: What That Tells Us About Pot Legalization and, Perhaps More Importantly, Lazy Reporting

 

[Disir]

So, the black market theory you have going on is out. The reduction in crime theory is out. It doesn't fund education. In the form of grants, which you have to repeatedly apply for, you have some nursing staff and some social workers hired. You don't fund education via sales tax because it isn't as stable as property tax. It's a short term fix for a few things or used to achieve a short term goal. Since the money that Colorado makes is primarily via tourism then once it goes nation wide that cash drops. Similar to gambling.


Well, that was fun.

 

[rightwinger]

That's rich... Read our convo again. I make points and you say NO that doesn't work. As stimulating as that is and as original as your "go educate yourself" insult is, I've made valid points I don't really care to explain myself further to those with closed minds. You should take your own advise if you actually want to engage in a substantive conversation

And that's three. Let's recap. My initial post (#8) makes two points

The Harm Reduction Method. You will never see that here fully implemented. If there is one thing that is true, this country will operate half-assed and then bitch cry when they don't see the same results. People talk about treatment but they don't delve into it--as if there is some unified plan. The only unified plan is to do the least that can be done.

I'm all for decriminalizing smaller amounts but I am absolutely for nailing larger amounts. I am not ok with legalization.

In post #13 you respond with

Legalization not only funds education and rehabilitation but it also adds regulation to the quality of product and dramatically hinders the underground/black market.

Do you really think just throwing poor addicts in jail is more effective?

It is very clear that (1)you did not read my post at all because you wanted to hear yourself talk and wanted to make a sale, (2) you are a dick or (3) you are low functioning. I addressed treatment and I addressed decriminalization (your poor addicts in jail) in my first post.
I ignore you because that's a whole lotta nonsense you got going on. I respond to Mike.
You pick it up again in post # 48.

I agree that most government programs leave much to be desired and never seem to fire on all cylinders, however, even a half assed education and rehab program being substantially funded by the tax revenue made from the operation of drug businesses and sales, would be a vast improvement over our current situation. Not to mention the positive effects from clearing jails and defunding criminal organizations... I see a tremendous amount of Pro's and very little Con's.

Let me help you out:
Start here:
Inside Colorado’s flourishing, segregated black market for pot

Pot Delivery Services Thriving In Colorado’s Black Market
Special report, 'Clearing the Haze:' Black market is thriving in Colorado

Start here for Harm Reduction

What is harm reduction? | Harm Reduction International

Nope....they are trafficking a product I don't give a shit about

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

I'm not interested in how you feel. Get the fuck off your ass if you have something to demonstrate.

Ok, now we are talking! Glad you did some homework and thank you for the links. Interesting articles but weak support in regard to your points in this discussion. Your articles address some black market operations that are happening in Colorado. This is inevitable as there are always people that try to game the system but you can't deny that the legal enterprise is dramatically cutting into the undergrounds market share, and they will eventually be whittled down as legit businesses flourish. Despite some black market dealers getting out of paying taxes you can not deny these statistics:
- MJ possession arrests are down 84% and MJ dealing arrest are down 90% since 2010, saving the state millions in adjudication costs
- Violent crime went down by 2.2% ; Burglary down 9.5% ; Property crime decreased by 8.9%
- Tax revenue was over $40 million from Jan 2014 - Oct 2014 which funded adding healthcare professionals to schools and other grants.
- $8 million of tax revenue has gone towards youth prevention and community bases programs.
- Colorado has the fastest growing economy in the U.S. and unemployment is at a 6 year low.

Are you starting to get the picture?? If this was adopted at a national level we would put the smugglers out of business as the majority of dealers would much rather have a legit business than risk getting arrested. We would save Billions on crime enforcement, prosecution, and jailing... And best of all we would have Billions in tax revenue to put towards bettering our schools and communities. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

Here's a link incase you question the validity of my data.
https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/de...juana_Legalization_One_Year_Status_Report.pdf

First up: crime.

Lately legalization advocates have been cheering numbers that show a decline in crime. There are literally hundreds of articles that have been written with this narrative. But an honest look at the statistics shows an increase — not decrease — in Denver crime rates.

Crime is tracked through two reporting mechanisms: the National Incident Based Reporting System (NIBRS), which examines about 35 types of crime, and the FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR). The FBI UCR only captures about 50 percent of all crimes in Denver, so the NIBRS is generally regarded as more credible. The Denver Police Department (DPD) uses NIBRS categories to examine an array of crime statistics, since it is the more detailed and comprehensive source of numbers.

The Denver Police statistics show that summing across all crime types — about 35 in all — the crime rate is up almost 7 percent compared with the same period last year. Interestingly, crimes such as public drunkenness are up 237 percent, and drug violations are up 20 percent.

So why are advocates claiming a crime drop? Easy: They blended part of the FBI data with part of the DPD/NIBRS data to cook up numbers they wished to see. When one picks the Part I data from UCR and uses DPD/NIBRS property-crime numbers only while studiously avoiding the DPD/NIBRS data on all other crimes, one can indeed manufacture the appearance of a decline. As one can see here, even when using the FBI UCR numbers — in their entirety — crime has risen.

A report commissioned by the National Association of Drug Court Professionals puts it nicely:

When a closer look at the data is undertaken, a different picture — something other than “crime is down” — appears to emerge. ...

[L]egalization proponents should not infer causality regarding the downward trend observable when isolating just the UCR’s Part I crime index.

When I asked the president of the Colorado Drug Investigators Association, Ernie Martinez, about these statistics, he urged me to look at the crimes that have been happening in connection to marijuana — even after legalization:
Crime Is Up in Colorado: What That Tells Us About Pot Legalization and, Perhaps More Importantly, Lazy Reporting

Public drunkenness and drug violations are victimless crimes. Why spend money prosecuting them

Much of the crime related to drugs is a result of the fact that we have made them highly illegal. It creates a market that only criminals can fill. 2.3 million in our prisons, most because of our obsession in stopping drugs

 

[rightwinger]

We have 2.2 million in prison right now. It is obvious the war on drugs isn't working

There are many threats to our society worse than drugs

Or, maybe those people shouldn't have broken the law. Anyone ever thought of that?

WE made the laws

We spend billions fighting against a product that people are voluntarily using. Is it worth putting millions in jail? Other countries don't do it

 

[Disir]

That's rich... Read our convo again. I make points and you say NO that doesn't work. As stimulating as that is and as original as your "go educate yourself" insult is, I've made valid points I don't really care to explain myself further to those with closed minds. You should take your own advise if you actually want to engage in a substantive conversation

And that's three. Let's recap. My initial post (#8) makes two points

The Harm Reduction Method. You will never see that here fully implemented. If there is one thing that is true, this country will operate half-assed and then bitch cry when they don't see the same results. People talk about treatment but they don't delve into it--as if there is some unified plan. The only unified plan is to do the least that can be done.

I'm all for decriminalizing smaller amounts but I am absolutely for nailing larger amounts. I am not ok with legalization.

In post #13 you respond with

Legalization not only funds education and rehabilitation but it also adds regulation to the quality of product and dramatically hinders the underground/black market.

Do you really think just throwing poor addicts in jail is more effective?

It is very clear that (1)you did not read my post at all because you wanted to hear yourself talk and wanted to make a sale, (2) you are a dick or (3) you are low functioning. I addressed treatment and I addressed decriminalization (your poor addicts in jail) in my first post.
I ignore you because that's a whole lotta nonsense you got going on. I respond to Mike.
You pick it up again in post # 48.

I agree that most government programs leave much to be desired and never seem to fire on all cylinders, however, even a half assed education and rehab program being substantially funded by the tax revenue made from the operation of drug businesses and sales, would be a vast improvement over our current situation. Not to mention the positive effects from clearing jails and defunding criminal organizations... I see a tremendous amount of Pro's and very little Con's.

Let me help you out:
Start here:
Inside Colorado’s flourishing, segregated black market for pot

Pot Delivery Services Thriving In Colorado’s Black Market
Special report, 'Clearing the Haze:' Black market is thriving in Colorado

Start here for Harm Reduction

What is harm reduction? | Harm Reduction International

I can't debate your feelings. Have a great day!

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

I'm not interested in how you feel. Get the fuck off your ass if you have something to demonstrate.

Ok, now we are talking! Glad you did some homework and thank you for the links. Interesting articles but weak support in regard to your points in this discussion. Your articles address some black market operations that are happening in Colorado. This is inevitable as there are always people that try to game the system but you can't deny that the legal enterprise is dramatically cutting into the undergrounds market share, and they will eventually be whittled down as legit businesses flourish. Despite some black market dealers getting out of paying taxes you can not deny these statistics:
- MJ possession arrests are down 84% and MJ dealing arrest are down 90% since 2010, saving the state millions in adjudication costs
- Violent crime went down by 2.2% ; Burglary down 9.5% ; Property crime decreased by 8.9%
- Tax revenue was over $40 million from Jan 2014 - Oct 2014 which funded adding healthcare professionals to schools and other grants.
- $8 million of tax revenue has gone towards youth prevention and community bases programs.
- Colorado has the fastest growing economy in the U.S. and unemployment is at a 6 year low.

Are you starting to get the picture?? If this was adopted at a national level we would put the smugglers out of business as the majority of dealers would much rather have a legit business than risk getting arrested. We would save Billions on crime enforcement, prosecution, and jailing... And best of all we would have Billions in tax revenue to put towards bettering our schools and communities. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

Here's a link incase you question the validity of my data.
https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/de...juana_Legalization_One_Year_Status_Report.pdf

First up: crime.

Lately legalization advocates have been cheering numbers that show a decline in crime. There are literally hundreds of articles that have been written with this narrative. But an honest look at the statistics shows an increase — not decrease — in Denver crime rates.

Crime is tracked through two reporting mechanisms: the National Incident Based Reporting System (NIBRS), which examines about 35 types of crime, and the FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR). The FBI UCR only captures about 50 percent of all crimes in Denver, so the NIBRS is generally regarded as more credible. The Denver Police Department (DPD) uses NIBRS categories to examine an array of crime statistics, since it is the more detailed and comprehensive source of numbers.

The Denver Police statistics show that summing across all crime types — about 35 in all — the crime rate is up almost 7 percent compared with the same period last year. Interestingly, crimes such as public drunkenness are up 237 percent, and drug violations are up 20 percent.

So why are advocates claiming a crime drop? Easy: They blended part of the FBI data with part of the DPD/NIBRS data to cook up numbers they wished to see. When one picks the Part I data from UCR and uses DPD/NIBRS property-crime numbers only while studiously avoiding the DPD/NIBRS data on all other crimes, one can indeed manufacture the appearance of a decline. As one can see here, even when using the FBI UCR numbers — in their entirety — crime has risen.

A report commissioned by the National Association of Drug Court Professionals puts it nicely:

When a closer look at the data is undertaken, a different picture — something other than “crime is down” — appears to emerge. ...

[L]egalization proponents should not infer causality regarding the downward trend observable when isolating just the UCR’s Part I crime index.

When I asked the president of the Colorado Drug Investigators Association, Ernie Martinez, about these statistics, he urged me to look at the crimes that have been happening in connection to marijuana — even after legalization:
Crime Is Up in Colorado: What That Tells Us About Pot Legalization and, Perhaps More Importantly, Lazy Reporting

Public drunkenness and drug violations are victimless crimes. Why spend money prosecuting them

Much of the crime related to drugs is a result of the fact that we have made them highly illegal. It creates a market that only criminals can fill. 2.3 million in our prisons, most because of our obsession in stopping drugs

Are you alleging 2.3 million are in prison on drug charges?

 

[Disir]

If it's in a meme it must be true.

 

[rightwinger]

That's rich... Read our convo again. I make points and you say NO that doesn't work. As stimulating as that is and as original as your "go educate yourself" insult is, I've made valid points I don't really care to explain myself further to those with closed minds. You should take your own advise if you actually want to engage in a substantive conversation

And that's three. Let's recap. My initial post (#8) makes two points

The Harm Reduction Method. You will never see that here fully implemented. If there is one thing that is true, this country will operate half-assed and then bitch cry when they don't see the same results. People talk about treatment but they don't delve into it--as if there is some unified plan. The only unified plan is to do the least that can be done.

I'm all for decriminalizing smaller amounts but I am absolutely for nailing larger amounts. I am not ok with legalization.

In post #13 you respond with

Legalization not only funds education and rehabilitation but it also adds regulation to the quality of product and dramatically hinders the underground/black market.

Do you really think just throwing poor addicts in jail is more effective?

It is very clear that (1)you did not read my post at all because you wanted to hear yourself talk and wanted to make a sale, (2) you are a dick or (3) you are low functioning. I addressed treatment and I addressed decriminalization (your poor addicts in jail) in my first post.
I ignore you because that's a whole lotta nonsense you got going on. I respond to Mike.
You pick it up again in post # 48.

I agree that most government programs leave much to be desired and never seem to fire on all cylinders, however, even a half assed education and rehab program being substantially funded by the tax revenue made from the operation of drug businesses and sales, would be a vast improvement over our current situation. Not to mention the positive effects from clearing jails and defunding criminal organizations... I see a tremendous amount of Pro's and very little Con's.

Let me help you out:
Start here:
Inside Colorado’s flourishing, segregated black market for pot

Pot Delivery Services Thriving In Colorado’s Black Market
Special report, 'Clearing the Haze:' Black market is thriving in Colorado

Start here for Harm Reduction

What is harm reduction? | Harm Reduction International

Show a negative impact on our society that warrants millions in prison

I'm not interested in how you feel. Get the fuck off your ass if you have something to demonstrate.

Ok, now we are talking! Glad you did some homework and thank you for the links. Interesting articles but weak support in regard to your points in this discussion. Your articles address some black market operations that are happening in Colorado. This is inevitable as there are always people that try to game the system but you can't deny that the legal enterprise is dramatically cutting into the undergrounds market share, and they will eventually be whittled down as legit businesses flourish. Despite some black market dealers getting out of paying taxes you can not deny these statistics:
- MJ possession arrests are down 84% and MJ dealing arrest are down 90% since 2010, saving the state millions in adjudication costs
- Violent crime went down by 2.2% ; Burglary down 9.5% ; Property crime decreased by 8.9%
- Tax revenue was over $40 million from Jan 2014 - Oct 2014 which funded adding healthcare professionals to schools and other grants.
- $8 million of tax revenue has gone towards youth prevention and community bases programs.
- Colorado has the fastest growing economy in the U.S. and unemployment is at a 6 year low.

Are you starting to get the picture?? If this was adopted at a national level we would put the smugglers out of business as the majority of dealers would much rather have a legit business than risk getting arrested. We would save Billions on crime enforcement, prosecution, and jailing... And best of all we would have Billions in tax revenue to put towards bettering our schools and communities. The positives far outweigh the negatives.

Here's a link incase you question the validity of my data.
https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/de...juana_Legalization_One_Year_Status_Report.pdf

First up: crime.

Lately legalization advocates have been cheering numbers that show a decline in crime. There are literally hundreds of articles that have been written with this narrative. But an honest look at the statistics shows an increase — not decrease — in Denver crime rates.

Crime is tracked through two reporting mechanisms: the National Incident Based Reporting System (NIBRS), which examines about 35 types of crime, and the FBI Uniform Crime Reports (UCR). The FBI UCR only captures about 50 percent of all crimes in Denver, so the NIBRS is generally regarded as more credible. The Denver Police Department (DPD) uses NIBRS categories to examine an array of crime statistics, since it is the more detailed and comprehensive source of numbers.

The Denver Police statistics show that summing across all crime types — about 35 in all — the crime rate is up almost 7 percent compared with the same period last year. Interestingly, crimes such as public drunkenness are up 237 percent, and drug violations are up 20 percent.

So why are advocates claiming a crime drop? Easy: They blended part of the FBI data with part of the DPD/NIBRS data to cook up numbers they wished to see. When one picks the Part I data from UCR and uses DPD/NIBRS property-crime numbers only while studiously avoiding the DPD/NIBRS data on all other crimes, one can indeed manufacture the appearance of a decline. As one can see here, even when using the FBI UCR numbers — in their entirety — crime has risen.

A report commissioned by the National Association of Drug Court Professionals puts it nicely:

When a closer look at the data is undertaken, a different picture — something other than “crime is down” — appears to emerge. ...

[L]egalization proponents should not infer causality regarding the downward trend observable when isolating just the UCR’s Part I crime index.

When I asked the president of the Colorado Drug Investigators Association, Ernie Martinez, about these statistics, he urged me to look at the crimes that have been happening in connection to marijuana — even after legalization:
Crime Is Up in Colorado: What That Tells Us About Pot Legalization and, Perhaps More Importantly, Lazy Reporting

Public drunkenness and drug violations are victimless crimes. Why spend money prosecuting them

Much of the crime related to drugs is a result of the fact that we have made them highly illegal. It creates a market that only criminals can fill. 2.3 million in our prisons, most because of our obsession in stopping drugs

Are you alleging 2.3 million are in prison on drug charges?

Do you understand what the term "most" means?