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In fact, I can open up a business that specializes in making signs for churches. That is not discriminatory either. That just happens to be the products I offer at my business.
OK, I'll ask again:
If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?
I would think you could reasonably deny that request. I could make it my policy not to portray hateful, sexual, or violent messages on my billboards. That is not discriminating against the individual but their message.
BTW the gay people were the victims not the baker. The gays didn't discriminate by asking for a cake.
Not under the Oregon law you couldn't. That is a religious expression and religion is a protected class.
I'm on the fence. I could see an argument where a gay owner could argue that is hateful to them personally. I can also see the other side. The owner could say maybe they don't post religious or political messages at all to avoid such conflicts. Their product would then be solely product or business advertisement and not religious or political messages. I don't really know. It would be a good case.
You could do that maybe. Get all of your appointments on referral. If you advertise though you can't then deny people appointments.A baker advertises "I make cakes of any shape!" and he is Jewish.
Nazi asked for a swastika shaped cake and jewish baker refuses because it offends him.
If political views are protected, why can the jewish baker deny the service?
Again it is not about denying performing a service that you find distasteful. You can still maintain control of your product. The issue at hand is access to the product. You cannot deny a certain segment of the community access to your product if you are running a business. Period and end of story.
The flaw in that line of thinking is that private businesses provide anything.
They engage in trade they are not public accomodations
If you have a storefront on main street, you are open to the public. The whole public.
Then stores that run "by appointment only" have to let people in no matter what?
If I open a business, I most certainly am within my right to say that I will not print things that contain hate speech. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a certain segment of my community. This is really quite simple concept. I cannot understand why you all are having such a difficult time understanding it.
Limiting the services you provide the public is not discrimination. Lol. Refusing to serve a person because he or she is gay, black, or whatever, is discrimination.You may not like it, but that's how it is.
Interesting the distinction allows YOU to decide who to work for yet still letting you think others should be forced to work for people they don't want to work for, unless of course there is a compelling government interest.
I'm sure that quite a few white folks had the same butthurt as you when they found out they must serve blacks. This argument has been settled for decades.
in that situation is was systemic economic discrimination that was government mandated, not a few bakers not wanting to participate in a gay wedding.
And it wouldn't be systemic economic discrimination if we let everyone do it?
The whole point of the law is to prevent such a thing.
That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.
Printers can refuse to print what they don't like. If you bake a cake, you're in big trouble.
A cake is a freakin' cake. A printer prints many things of varying subjects.
CREAK go the goalposts....
Really? Printing can be anything from a book of baby ducks to hardcore porn.
A cake is a cake. Apples and oranges my friend.
In fact, I can open up a business that specializes in making signs for churches. That is not discriminatory either. That just happens to be the products I offer at my business.
OK, I'll ask again:
If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?
I would think you could reasonably deny that request. I could make it my policy not to portray hateful, sexual, or violent messages on my billboards. That is not discriminating against the individual but their message.
BTW the gay people were the victims not the baker. The gays didn't discriminate by asking for a cake.
Not under the Oregon law you couldn't. That is a religious expression and religion is a protected class.
I'm on the fence. I could see an argument where a gay owner could argue that is hateful to them personally. I can also see the other side. The owner could say maybe they don't post religious or political messages at all to avoid such conflicts. Their product would then be solely product or business advertisement and not religious or political messages. I don't really know. It would be a good case.
Everyone has a right to be a c* unt, it's the consequences that'll get you.In a free society that sort of thing is an end result. You don't want a free society, you want a bunch of lemmings following whatever progressive tripe is the current flavor of the month.
whatever, guy.
What i want is to be able to do commerce without being cheated or abused. And I hold myself to that same standard in my business dealings.
The Klein's advertised a service, and the community supported their business. They were in the wrong here both legally and morally.
Would it have been easier to just say, "Fuck it" and go to another vendor? Yeah. Maybe. shit, they could have just left them a shitty Yelp review and left it at that.
But they stood up for hteir rights, and good for them.
The Kleins don't like it, they can go find a line of work their Imaginary Friend approves of.
And in doing so they trashed the rights of the bakers.
Having to go out of business via government action over hurt feelings is not a consequence, it's tyranny.
But it's tyranny you agree with, so that somehow makes it OK.
It can be totally decorated with the exception of the cake topper. I know lots of people who ordered their own topper and have the cake guy put it on.What do you imagine a wedding cake looks like? And isn't a birthday cake, a wedding cake, an anniversary cake considered 'specialty' cakes too? Any cake that delivers a special message is a 'specialty' cake.Gay cakes are "specialty cakes", problem solved.
The ones in my book would have a bride and groom on top. The OP stated there would be a book showing cakes she would make. It wasn't my post, I just responded.
You could simply sell a cake with nothing on top. If the client wants to add it themselves that's fine.
A wedding cake is all about the decorations. A bakery that doesn't decorate a cake isn't selling any.
You dumb fuck, how many times do you have to be told. This is NOT about the product supplied, it is about access to the product. Moron. Learn the law. Your ignorance is showing . . . again.
A baker advertises "I make cakes of any shape!" and he is Jewish.
Nazi asked for a swastika shaped cake and jewish baker refuses because it offends him.
If political views are protected, why can the jewish baker deny the service?
Again it is not about denying performing a service that you find distasteful. You can still maintain control of your product. The issue at hand is access to the product. You cannot deny a certain segment of the community access to your product if you are running a business. Period and end of story.
The flaw in that line of thinking is that private businesses provide anything.
They engage in trade they are not public accomodations
If you have a storefront on main street, you are open to the public. The whole public.
Then stores that run "by appointment only" have to let people in no matter what?
That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.
Printers can refuse to print what they don't like. If you bake a cake, you're in big trouble.
A cake is a freakin' cake. A printer prints many things of varying subjects.
CREAK go the goalposts....
Really? Printing can be anything from a book of baby ducks to hardcore porn.
A cake is a cake. Apples and oranges my friend.
No, it isn't. It is exactly the same thing. If you sell a product or a service then you cannot refuse to sell that product or service to someone when it falls within a protected class. What that product or service might be is irrelevant.
It can be totally decorated with the exception of the cake topper. I know lots of people who ordered their own topper and have the cake guy put it on.What do you imagine a wedding cake looks like? And isn't a birthday cake, a wedding cake, an anniversary cake considered 'specialty' cakes too? Any cake that delivers a special message is a 'specialty' cake.
The ones in my book would have a bride and groom on top. The OP stated there would be a book showing cakes she would make. It wasn't my post, I just responded.
You could simply sell a cake with nothing on top. If the client wants to add it themselves that's fine.
A wedding cake is all about the decorations. A bakery that doesn't decorate a cake isn't selling any.
I can't say that I discuss this process with everyone I know who got married. In fact, I don't recall ever discussing it with anyone. But I would expect the place you would tend to order toppers would be through the baker. Of course, I could be wrong. There was no such thing as the internet when I was married so the options were limited.
Printers can refuse to print what they don't like. If you bake a cake, you're in big trouble.
A cake is a freakin' cake. A printer prints many things of varying subjects.
CREAK go the goalposts....
Really? Printing can be anything from a book of baby ducks to hardcore porn.
A cake is a cake. Apples and oranges my friend.
No, it isn't. It is exactly the same thing. If you sell a product or a service then you cannot refuse to sell that product or service to someone when it falls within a protected class. What that product or service might be is irrelevant.
I can certainly say as a printer that I do not offer porn as a product. That is not discrimination based on race, gender, religion or sexual preference. It's my company policy. You cannot demand that I sell a product I don't offer. A bakery that sells wedding cakes, sells wedding cakes. They have every right to tell me that they won't make a penis shaped cake if they don't offer that. They cannot however refuse to sell me cake #23 from their catalog on the grounds that it's for a gay wedding. That is discrimination. It is in no way the same.
Everyone has a right to be a c* unt, it's the consequences that'll get you.In a free society that sort of thing is an end result. You don't want a free society, you want a bunch of lemmings following whatever progressive tripe is the current flavor of the month.
whatever, guy.
What i want is to be able to do commerce without being cheated or abused. And I hold myself to that same standard in my business dealings.
The Klein's advertised a service, and the community supported their business. They were in the wrong here both legally and morally.
Would it have been easier to just say, "Fuck it" and go to another vendor? Yeah. Maybe. shit, they could have just left them a shitty Yelp review and left it at that.
But they stood up for hteir rights, and good for them.
The Kleins don't like it, they can go find a line of work their Imaginary Friend approves of.
And in doing so they trashed the rights of the bakers.
Having to go out of business via government action over hurt feelings is not a consequence, it's tyranny.
But it's tyranny you agree with, so that somehow makes it OK.
This is where you are in the weeds. They didn't go out of business due to gov't action, it was their own actions. They aren't the victim.
Where is your call for them to take personal responsibity?
That's right. I can refuse to print words I don't like. What I cannot do is refuse to do business with a person because he or she is gay. I can tell them that I don't provide such products (I can win in a court too, by claiming doing such would hurt my business) and I can show them the products and services that I do offer.
Printers can refuse to print what they don't like. If you bake a cake, you're in big trouble.
A cake is a freakin' cake. A printer prints many things of varying subjects.
CREAK go the goalposts....
Really? Printing can be anything from a book of baby ducks to hardcore porn.
A cake is a cake. Apples and oranges my friend.
Discrimination is discrimination, denying service is denying service. You want those laws to be that way, then suck it up. Otherwise you are a f%^king hypocrite.
Printers can refuse to print what they don't like. If you bake a cake, you're in big trouble.
A cake is a freakin' cake. A printer prints many things of varying subjects.
CREAK go the goalposts....
Really? Printing can be anything from a book of baby ducks to hardcore porn.
A cake is a cake. Apples and oranges my friend.
No, it isn't. It is exactly the same thing. If you sell a product or a service then you cannot refuse to sell that product or service to someone when it falls within a protected class. What that product or service might be is irrelevant.
I can certainly say as a printer that I do not offer porn as a product. That is not discrimination based on race, gender, religion or sexual preference. It's my company policy. You cannot demand that I sell a product I don't offer. A bakery that sells wedding cakes, sells wedding cakes. They have every right to tell me that they won't make a penis shaped cake if they don't offer that. They cannot however refuse to sell me cake #23 from their catalog on the grounds that it's for a gay wedding. That is discrimination. It is in no way the same.
MoronEveryone has a right to be a c* unt, it's the consequences that'll get you.
Having to go out of business via government action over hurt feelings is not a consequence, it's tyranny.
But it's tyranny you agree with, so that somehow makes it OK.
Not gov't action. Their own action.
The gays were the victims. The bakers were the perps.
Nope. the only victim here is freedom, and government is the one trying to squash it.
Just admit you get a stiffy when government screws over people you disagree with.
Their Chisty hubris screwed them.
Bigot.
MoronHaving to go out of business via government action over hurt feelings is not a consequence, it's tyranny.
But it's tyranny you agree with, so that somehow makes it OK.
Not gov't action. Their own action.
The gays were the victims. The bakers were the perps.
Nope. the only victim here is freedom, and government is the one trying to squash it.
Just admit you get a stiffy when government screws over people you disagree with.
Their Chisty hubris screwed them.
Bigot.
In fact, I can open up a business that specializes in making signs for churches. That is not discriminatory either. That just happens to be the products I offer at my business.
OK, I'll ask again:
If you are gay and you print billboards for a living, and a Christian customer walked in and asked for you to print them a billboard that says: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God" for a busy highway, would you or would you not be able to deny serving that PARTICULAR request for a billboard based on your principles as a homosexual? Yes or no?
I would think you could reasonably deny that request. I could make it my policy not to portray hateful, sexual, or violent messages on my billboards. That is not discriminating against the individual but their message.
BTW the gay people were the victims not the baker. The gays didn't discriminate by asking for a cake.
Not under the Oregon law you couldn't. That is a religious expression and religion is a protected class.
I'm on the fence. I could see an argument where a gay owner could argue that is hateful to them personally. I can also see the other side. The owner could say maybe they don't post religious or political messages at all to avoid such conflicts. Their product would then be solely product or business advertisement and not religious or political messages. I don't really know. It would be a good case.
The baker says it is hateful to them, but that didn't matter. The law in Oregon really doesn't leave any leeway. If it is a protected class (and religion is) then you cannot discriminate in any way. If you make billboards, you can't not make that billboard because you don't like what it says.
