For all the Bigoted Bakers, Fanatical Florists and Pharisee Photographers

[Jroc]

Well, let's just put it this way. America is NOT the home of the free as long as gay people are still considered second-class citizens. All human beings who reside in our great country should enjoy the same freedoms.

Couldn't agree more, in terms of equal treatment under the law. But forcing people to associate with each other when they'd rather not, isn't protecting freedom.

Wrong. Nobody forces anyone to open a public accommodation business. If you open a public accommodation business, you are expected to serve the public, and that includes all kinds of people you may or may not agree with. When you go into business here in America, your religious "expectations" from the public don't count for anything. You are still free to discriminate in your personal life.

Well, sure. That's the base assumption of these laws; that anyone 'permitted' by the state to conduct commerce must sacrifice their basic rights. That's exactly what I'm calling bullshit on.

There is no "right" to discrimination. None. If you feel that you cannot look past your own prejudices and serve ALL American citizens equally, then nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation business. You are entitled to be a jack ass in your personal life, you just cannot impose that on your customer base. Simple really.

ok i should be forced to make a Hitler cake

 

[ChrisL]

Again, this has nothing to do with the product!!! Why do I have to KEEP explaining??? This is about discriminating against an entire GROUP of people. The law cited was an antidiscrimination law in the State of Oregon. It has NOTHING to do with the product being sold. Learn!!! Learn the law!

Umm... no you think the bakers should be forced to perform a service. My point still stands you are a overly emotional women. your responses are purely emotion and not rational. Should i be forced to make a Nazi cake?

No they are not being forced to perform any service. They blatantly broke the anti discrimination laws in their state by saying that they refuse to serve a specific group of American citizens. You cannot do that. This has NOTHING to do with the product you make or provide. It has everything to do with access to your product. You still maintain control over your product. Like I told you, learn the law.

Can Nazi's be a specific group of American citizens? White supremacists?

Sure they can. Could you deny to serve them based upon that? No. That does not mean that you have to make a product that implies hatred for another group of citizens. You still maintain control over your product, especially if you can show that it would hurt your business. This is where you all seem to misinterpret the laws.

Yes. with true liberty I have the natural right to deny performing a service for anyone We arent slaves to the government

Nope, your state certainly has the right to set laws and regulations regarding business practice. The state realizes that discrimination doesn't make for good business and makes for a "hostile" business environment that really serves NO ONE. The way you do business effects your state's bottom line too. These laws apply to equally to everyone, whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist. NOBODY is allowed to discriminate against another group of working, tax paying American citizens, regardless of your personal religious views.

 

[ChrisL]

Well, let's just put it this way. America is NOT the home of the free as long as gay people are still considered second-class citizens. All human beings who reside in our great country should enjoy the same freedoms.

Couldn't agree more, in terms of equal treatment under the law. But forcing people to associate with each other when they'd rather not, isn't protecting freedom.

Wrong. Nobody forces anyone to open a public accommodation business. If you open a public accommodation business, you are expected to serve the public, and that includes all kinds of people you may or may not agree with. When you go into business here in America, your religious "expectations" from the public don't count for anything. You are still free to discriminate in your personal life.

Well, sure. That's the base assumption of these laws; that anyone 'permitted' by the state to conduct commerce must sacrifice their basic rights. That's exactly what I'm calling bullshit on.

There is no "right" to discrimination. None. If you feel that you cannot look past your own prejudices and serve ALL American citizens equally, then nobody is forcing you to open a public accommodation business. You are entitled to be a jack ass in your personal life, you just cannot impose that on your customer base. Simple really.

ok i should be forced to make a Hitler cake

Look, I don't know what your issue is, but you are completely missing the point. You just keep repeating the same thing, after I have already explained to you the law that was broken.

 

[Jroc]

Umm... no you think the bakers should be forced to perform a service. My point still stands you are a overly emotional women. your responses are purely emotion and not rational. Should i be forced to make a Nazi cake?

No they are not being forced to perform any service. They blatantly broke the anti discrimination laws in their state by saying that they refuse to serve a specific group of American citizens. You cannot do that. This has NOTHING to do with the product you make or provide. It has everything to do with access to your product. You still maintain control over your product. Like I told you, learn the law.

Can Nazi's be a specific group of American citizens? White supremacists?

Sure they can. Could you deny to serve them based upon that? No. That does not mean that you have to make a product that implies hatred for another group of citizens. You still maintain control over your product, especially if you can show that it would hurt your business. This is where you all seem to misinterpret the laws.

Yes. with true liberty I have the natural right to deny performing a service for anyone We arent slaves to the government

Nope, your state certainly has the right to set laws and regulations regarding business practice. The state realizes that discrimination doesn't make for good business and makes for a "hostile" business environment that really serves NO ONE. The way you do business effects your state's bottom line too. These laws apply to equally to everyone, whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist. NOBODY is allowed to discriminate against another group of working, tax paying American citizens, regardless of your personal religious views.

You're full of crap..Make your own Nazi cake

 

[ChrisL]

No they are not being forced to perform any service. They blatantly broke the anti discrimination laws in their state by saying that they refuse to serve a specific group of American citizens. You cannot do that. This has NOTHING to do with the product you make or provide. It has everything to do with access to your product. You still maintain control over your product. Like I told you, learn the law.

Can Nazi's be a specific group of American citizens? White supremacists?

Sure they can. Could you deny to serve them based upon that? No. That does not mean that you have to make a product that implies hatred for another group of citizens. You still maintain control over your product, especially if you can show that it would hurt your business. This is where you all seem to misinterpret the laws.

Yes. with true liberty I have the natural right to deny performing a service for anyone We arent slaves to the government

Nope, your state certainly has the right to set laws and regulations regarding business practice. The state realizes that discrimination doesn't make for good business and makes for a "hostile" business environment that really serves NO ONE. The way you do business effects your state's bottom line too. These laws apply to equally to everyone, whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist. NOBODY is allowed to discriminate against another group of working, tax paying American citizens, regardless of your personal religious views.

You're full of crap..Make your own Nazi cake

Geebus, you are dumb.

 

[Jroc]

Can Nazi's be a specific group of American citizens? White supremacists?

Sure they can. Could you deny to serve them based upon that? No. That does not mean that you have to make a product that implies hatred for another group of citizens. You still maintain control over your product, especially if you can show that it would hurt your business. This is where you all seem to misinterpret the laws.

Yes. with true liberty I have the natural right to deny performing a service for anyone We arent slaves to the government

Nope, your state certainly has the right to set laws and regulations regarding business practice. The state realizes that discrimination doesn't make for good business and makes for a "hostile" business environment that really serves NO ONE. The way you do business effects your state's bottom line too. These laws apply to equally to everyone, whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist. NOBODY is allowed to discriminate against another group of working, tax paying American citizens, regardless of your personal religious views.

You're full of crap..Make your own Nazi cake

Geebus, you are dumb.

You don't have an answer because your point is stupid. "you have no right to refuse service"

 

[ChrisL]

Sure they can. Could you deny to serve them based upon that? No. That does not mean that you have to make a product that implies hatred for another group of citizens. You still maintain control over your product, especially if you can show that it would hurt your business. This is where you all seem to misinterpret the laws.

Yes. with true liberty I have the natural right to deny performing a service for anyone We arent slaves to the government

Nope, your state certainly has the right to set laws and regulations regarding business practice. The state realizes that discrimination doesn't make for good business and makes for a "hostile" business environment that really serves NO ONE. The way you do business effects your state's bottom line too. These laws apply to equally to everyone, whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist. NOBODY is allowed to discriminate against another group of working, tax paying American citizens, regardless of your personal religious views.

You're full of crap..Make your own Nazi cake

Geebus, you are dumb.

You don't have an answer because your point is stupid. "you have no right to refuse service"

Exactly. Now you are getting it. I suppose you'll have to tell Oregon and MOST states that they are "stupid" for not allowing you to discriminate against your fellow American citizens. No different than any other bigoted religion, full of hatred and sheer ignorance.

 

[JoeB131]

So as a Jew i should be forced to make a Nazi cake? ..You're not to bright are you?

Not sure how Gays are to Christians what Nazis were to Jews.

Was there some Big Fabulous Concentration Camp they sent Christians to and offed them with Killer Oscar Parties?

The question wasn't for you Jew hater

no, but pointing out your hysterical screaming is always fun.

"Oh, it was horrible. They made me decorate that cake with the Rainbow flag, and I was taken back to that unhappy day when I was trapped in traffic during a pride parade.... so many assless chaps... so many!"

 

[JoeB131]

ok i should be forced to make a Hitler cake

Naw, you should make a Netanyahu Cake.

No one can tell the difference these days.

 

[Jroc]

Yes. with true liberty I have the natural right to deny performing a service for anyone We arent slaves to the government

Nope, your state certainly has the right to set laws and regulations regarding business practice. The state realizes that discrimination doesn't make for good business and makes for a "hostile" business environment that really serves NO ONE. The way you do business effects your state's bottom line too. These laws apply to equally to everyone, whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist. NOBODY is allowed to discriminate against another group of working, tax paying American citizens, regardless of your personal religious views.

You're full of crap..Make your own Nazi cake

Geebus, you are dumb.

You don't have an answer because your point is stupid. "you have no right to refuse service"

Exactly. Now you are getting it. I suppose you'll have to tell Oregon and MOST states that they are "stupid" for not allowing you to discriminate against your fellow American citizens. No different than any other bigoted religion, full of hatred and sheer ignorance.

So in your mind i should be forced to cater a Nazi party gathering? or be forced out of business?

 

[Silhouette]

So in your mind i should be forced to cater a Nazi party gathering? or be forced out of business?

No, better yet you should, if you are gay and have a graphic design business specializing in billboards, be forced to print a billboard for a busy highway for a Christian asking you to print: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God". And if you refuse to participate in that on principle, you are discriminating against the Christian and their 1st Amendment civil rights. You will face a lawsuit at that time. PA laws include all civil rights, not just some of them.

LGBT cult folks really do like to pick and choose when it comes to the word "equality". Just like some of the most dismissive folks I've met about the topic of polygamy are gays and lesbians....you know, just another sexual orientation passing judgment on another..

 

[Koheleth]

I am just wondering how far you are willing to take your strict adherence to the Bible in doing your business.

Okay. So you don't want to provide wedding services to gay folks because Leviticus 18:22 says so.

Well, why stop there?

The Bible also says that adultery and sex before marriage are wrong. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 is very clear a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night shall be stoned. Admittedly, it might be a bit harsh to determine who is a virgin, but you could at least eliminate the 50% of women who live with their boyfriends before marriage.

Okay, next up, we need to talk about what you are wearing, Girlfriend. Deuteronomy 22:5 says that a woman shall not wear clothing meant for a man. That means all you ladies who wear slacks and jeans and pantsuits! Clearly, a truly biblical business can't work for such sinners!

and if that's too "Old Testament" for you, 1 Timothy 2:9 and 1 Peter 3:3 both state women should wear neither braids nor jewelry. so if they plan to wear any of that at their wedding, clearly it would offend your magic fairy in the sky to no end.

Hey, and Heaven forbid that they be one of those "liberated" women who write their own vows at a wedding.

Ephesians 5:22-24 says that they should totally submit to their husbands, and 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 says they should keep their mouths shut in church.

So really, now that you've eliminated about 99% of your potential customers, you can no doubt say that your objections to serving gays was really about the Bible... because you are also following all the other rules the bible sets down.

Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭22-32‬ NLT) Homesexuality is detestable to God because it is the lowest for of idolatry! Christians who truly are followers of Jesus Christ are not bigots because they believe in truth. They are following Jesus who has saved them from a life of sin. People who don't want to hear the truth will continue to walk in sin and hate everything that is good and will call evil good and good evil. Christians are called to hate sin not the sinner. And we are called to preach repentance unto God. God hates all sin but some sins he detest because of the idolatry nature of the sin. Your argument is with God not his followers. P.S. I've never won an argument with God! Truth is truth no matter how you try to change it.

 

[Silhouette]

"I've never won an argument with God"...that's a good one. Welcome to USMB Koheleth.

 

[JoeB131]

No, better yet you should, if you are gay and have a graphic design business specializing in billboards, be forced to print a billboard for a busy highway for a Christian asking you to print: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God". And if you refuse to participate in that on principle, you are discriminating against the Christian and their 1st Amendment civil rights. You will face a lawsuit at that time. PA laws include all civil rights, not just some of them.

Actually, most people wouldn't print that for the same reason they wouldn't make the Nazi Cake that J'Roids seems so hot to get. They would suffer retaliation from people offended by the message. So they'd probably have solid ground to stand on with refusing the business.

However, refusing to provide a product you advertised based on the race, religion or sexual orientation of the person asking for it IS a violation of Oregon's Public Accommodation laws.

 

[JoeB131]

No, better yet you should, if you are gay and have a graphic design business specializing in billboards, be forced to print a billboard for a busy highway for a Christian asking you to print: "Homosexuality is a sin unto God". And if you refuse to participate in that on principle, you are discriminating against the Christian and their 1st Amendment civil rights. You will face a lawsuit at that time. PA laws include all civil rights, not just some of them.

Actually, most people wouldn't print that for the same reason they wouldn't make the Nazi Cake that J'Roids seems so hot to get. They would suffer retaliation from people offended by the message. So they'd probably have solid ground to stand on with refusing the business.

However, refusing to provide a product you advertised based on the race, religion or sexual orientation of the person asking for it IS a violation of Oregon's Public Accommodation laws.

 

[JoeB131]

[ Homesexuality is detestable to God because it is the lowest for of idolatry! Christians who truly are followers of Jesus Christ are not bigots because they believe in truth. They are following Jesus who has saved them from a life of sin. People who don't want to hear the truth will continue to walk in sin and hate everything that is good and will call evil good and good evil. Christians are called to hate sin not the sinner. And we are called to preach repentance unto God. God hates all sin but some sins he detest because of the idolatry nature of the sin. Your argument is with God not his followers. P.S. I've never won an argument with God! Truth is truth no matter how you try to change it.

Naw, man, I had a chat with God yesterday, he told me he was totally cool with the gays.

And you can't prove I didn't. Heh, heh, heh.

Okay, on a serious note- the thing is, all those other verses I listed in the OP are in the bible. Yet Christians ignore them because they are silly or really don't reflect the way we live today. Most women are NOT virgins on their wedding nights. Back in bible times, that was enough to get you stoned to death. (One can only imagine how many girls were stoned to death because their hymens broke for other reasons.)

When I was a young man, it was considered scandalous for a couple to live together before marriage. Today it's done all the time. Probably because it's probably a good idea to find out if you are compatible before you clunk down $10,000 on a wedding.

The thing is, God didn't change his mind. In Bible Days, women were property, not people with rights that folks were expected to respect. God didn't change, WE DID. And in my opinion for the better.

The thing is, you bible types like to pretend the more misogynistic aspects of the bible aren't in there. You don't read those verses in church because people will stop showing up.

 

[Seawytch]

The thing is, you bible types like to pretend the more misogynistic aspects of the bible aren't in there. You don't read those verses in church because people will stop showing up.

And fewer young people are going to church now because they perceive them to be anti gay.

 

[Jroc]

The thing is, you bible types like to pretend the more misogynistic aspects of the bible aren't in there. You don't read those verses in church because people will stop showing up.

And fewer young people are going to church now because they perceive them to be anti gay.

I'm an anti-Nazi bigot myself

 

[IsaacNewton]

[ Homesexuality is detestable to God because it is the lowest for of idolatry! Christians who truly are followers of Jesus Christ are not bigots because they believe in truth. They are following Jesus who has saved them from a life of sin. People who don't want to hear the truth will continue to walk in sin and hate everything that is good and will call evil good and good evil. Christians are called to hate sin not the sinner. And we are called to preach repentance unto God. God hates all sin but some sins he detest because of the idolatry nature of the sin. Your argument is with God not his followers. P.S. I've never won an argument with God! Truth is truth no matter how you try to change it.

Naw, man, I had a chat with God yesterday, he told me he was totally cool with the gays.

And you can't prove I didn't. Heh, heh, heh.

Okay, on a serious note- the thing is, all those other verses I listed in the OP are in the bible. Yet Christians ignore them because they are silly or really don't reflect the way we live today. Most women are NOT virgins on their wedding nights. Back in bible times, that was enough to get you stoned to death. (One can only imagine how many girls were stoned to death because their hymens broke for other reasons.)

When I was a young man, it was considered scandalous for a couple to live together before marriage. Today it's done all the time. Probably because it's probably a good idea to find out if you are compatible before you clunk down $10,000 on a wedding.

The thing is, God didn't change his mind. In Bible Days, women were property, not people with rights that folks were expected to respect. God didn't change, WE DID. And in my opinion for the better.

The thing is, you bible types like to pretend the more misogynistic aspects of the bible aren't in there. You don't read those verses in church because people will stop showing up.

And voila. There it is.

"Most women are NOT virgins on their wedding nights. Back in bible times, that was enough to get you stoned to death. (One can only imagine how many girls were stoned to death because their hymens broke for other reasons.)"

And one wonders who did the checking? I'd guess this was a popular job back then.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm an anti-Nazi bigot myself

Nazis? Do they still make those?