For Those Who Don't Understand What Occupy is REALLY About (Obviously LOTS of you)

[Uncensored2008]

OK, here's a question....

Various personal attacks and disagreements about the nature of the OWS movement itself aside.

Does anyone disagree with the 3 points the OP believes that OWS is fighting for?

Because, if we're all in agreement that these points are valid, well, that's a starting point right there.

Most people with any sense oppose them.

"1. We don't want to End Capitalism, We Want to End Corporatacracy."

What is this supposed to mean?

The one area of blatant corporatism is the open fascism of Obamacare. Obamacare LITERALLY merges well connected corporations like Kaiser and Blue Cross with the federal government, and uses government to force the public at gun point (implied) to purchase the product of these corporations.

Yet I have not read nor heard a single demand from any Shitter website, blog or the OP seeking the immediate repeal of Obamacare.

Furthermore, Obama directly bought two corporations with taxpayer monies in order to bail out the United Auto Workers union. The banks paid back their bailout, but GM hasn't. Still, not a peep about this from the Shitters.

Clearly this demand is at best a farce. The Shitters want Corporatism, they just want it to be controlled by the left.

"2. We won't tolerate a government that rewards corporate incompetence, greed and
fraud. No More Bank Bailouts."

Obvious bullshit. The Shitters have no issue with bailouts of the UAW, and SEIU is about 90% of the bodies at any given Shitter march, what they seek is government funds to bailout their bloated pension funds.

Again, hypocrisy is the foundation of the left, and the Shitters are an example. Yes, i want bailouts to banks to end, I also want bailouts of the UAW, and thousands of public employee unions to stop. If Jerry Brown wants to keep fellating the CTA and other public employee unions with unsustainable goodies, then let California go bankrupt - but instead billions are spent on bailouts - no complaint from the Shitters.

"3. We want the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed immediately."

Knee-jerk reaction, this is a DNC goal, not a Shitter goal. GLB is a complex piece of legislation. Repeal it today, and Walmart will be the worlds biggest bank tomorrow.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Socialism works really well. Why? Because investing in education, healthcare, research, technology, and infrastructure is what drives an economy.

Yep, the USSR, North Korea and Cuba make that clear.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland etc....

Do a little research.

Those are mixed economies, stupid fuck. They have relatively free markets.

 

[Uncensored2008]

How did 6% of American mortgages being in foreclosure cause the collapse of the world financial market?

By collapsing the artificially inflated value of the other 94%

Do you have a point?

 

[Uncensored2008]

I joined a credit union just last week.

Should have done it years ago.

Did your $7 double their assets?

 

[dnsmith35]

I joined a credit union just last week.

Should have done it years ago.

Did your $7 double their assets?

Hey, and he cooks too. Did you say $7? I doubt the dude had $7 to move to a credit union. He's been using his Mom's credit card in the OWS camp. Now he needs to clean his space up.

I love the way some of these yahoos are attributing motivation to the OWS. I doubt 1 in 10 OWS even know why they are protesting. And those that do, don't know what is causing the problems they are protesting about.

Some leftwingnutter trys to project what he wants onto the OWS slugs. The OWS should be directing their anger at the federal government for running the country into the ground with give aways we can't afford. Social engineering at the expense of the top 50% (those who pay income tax) is wrong,

 

[IndependntLogic]

OK, here's a question....

Various personal attacks and disagreements about the nature of the OWS movement itself aside.
Does anyone disagree with the 3 points the OP believes that OWS is fighting for?
Because, if we're all in agreement that these points are valid, well, that's a starting point right there.

Most people with any sense oppose them. Why Specifically?

"1. We don't want to End Capitalism, We Want to End Corporatacracy."

What is this supposed to mean? Let me simplify it for you since you seem unfamiliar with the term. Corporatacracy is a government controlled by Corporations, SIGs, PACs and Unions.

The one area of blatant corporatism is the open fascism of Obamacare. So in other words, you AGREE with the point when it applies to Obama but what? Insist that there is no corporate influence anywhere byt the WH? No Corps or PACs influence Republicans in any way? Think about how that sounds.

Obamacare LITERALLY merges well connected corporations like Kaiser and Blue Cross with the federal government, and uses government to force the public at gun point (implied) to purchase the product of these corporations.
Yet I have not read nor heard a single demand from any Shitter website, blog or the OP seeking the immediate repeal of Obamacare.

Nice change of subject. (see sig below). Has nothing to do with Corporate Control of our government.

Furthermore, Obama directly bought two corporations with taxpayer monies in order to bail out the United Auto Workers union. The banks paid back their bailout, Dude! Um, don't know how to break this to you. The banks have not paid back all the bailout money.

but GM hasn't. Still, not a peep about this from the Shitters. Allow me to show you how a point is addressed directly. No spin, change of subject nothing. GM should be required to pay back all the money immediately or broken up so they are never again "too big to fail". After that. No bailouts. Notice how I didn't say "Yeah but the Republicans did...."

Clearly this demand is at best a farce. The Shitters want Corporatism, they just want it to be controlled by the left.

Obviously you want that to be true but you're misinformed. Unless you've recently joined OWS and have direct knowledge?

"2. We won't tolerate a government that rewards corporate incompetence, greed and
fraud. No More Bank Bailouts."

Obvious bullshit. The Shitters have no issue with bailouts of the UAW, and SEIU is about 90% of the bodies at any given Shitter march, what they seek is government funds to bailout their bloated pension funds.

You obviously project what you want, onto others. You're about as accurate as the people who say the Tea Party want the USA to become a theocracy. Guess what, They're wrong too.

Again, hypocrisy is the foundation of the left, and the Shitters are an example. Yes, i want bailouts to banks to end, I also want bailouts of the UAW, and thousands of public employee unions to stop. If Jerry Brown wants to keep fellating the CTA and other public employee unions with unsustainable goodies, then let California go bankrupt - but instead billions are spent on bailouts - no complaint from the Shitters.

"3. We want the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed immediately."

Knee-jerk reaction, this is a DNC goal, not a Shitter goal. GLB is a complex piece of legislation. Repeal it today, and Walmart will be the worlds biggest bank tomorrow.

Have your knees checked. I mean obviously that's your reaction because you want anything from our movement to be "wrong".

Are you aware Newt Gingrich just stated he agrees with us on this point? Danm Liberal!

So basically, you've tried very hard to project what you've seen on the MSM or RW media onto OWS but guess what you've admitted?

You agree with OWS that Corporatacracy is bad for America. Good for you!
You agree with OWS on no more bailouts. Good for you!
So the two things you understand, you agree with. The other one you obviously don't understand (LOVE the WalMart reference! Yeah. THAT made sense!) and therefore have decided that Newt Gingrich is promoting DNC Goals!

Always good to see objectivity and reason! Well oaky, this was fun too. Don't worry at least you TRIED to discuss the issues. Puts you way above most Conservs on this thread.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Why Specifically?

RTFP

Seriously.

Let me simplify it for you since you seem unfamiliar with the term. Corporatacracy is a government controlled by Corporations, SIGs, PACs and Unions.

That is idiocy. Corporations cannot control government. You know why? Government has guns, corporations don't. What we see in CORPORATISM, which you are either ignorant of or avoiding, (probably the latter) is a symbiotic merging of corporate and governmental power structures.

So in other words, you AGREE with the point when it applies to Obama but what? Insist that there is no corporate influence anywhere byt the WH? No Corps or PACs influence Republicans in any way? Think about how that sounds.

There are no "other words." You either grasp my point or you don't - what you may not do is alter it.

What I illustrated is the most egregious example of corporatism since Mussolini, yet the Shitters say not a word about it.

Nice change of subject. (see sig below). Has nothing to do with Corporate Control of our government.

No, this IS the subject, it's corporatism in action, but it meets leftist goals. This demonstrates the utter and complete hypocrisy involved.

I've got to go, I'll finish this tomorrow.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Have your knees checked. I mean obviously that's your reaction because you want anything from our movement to be "wrong".

do you think your movement acts in manner which instills or reinforces this notion to the very ham and eggers you so desperately need to make your movement a success ?

 

[Oddball]

Let me simplify it for you since you seem unfamiliar with the term. Corporatacracy is a government controlled by Corporations, SIGs, PACs and Unions.

That is idiocy. Corporations cannot control government. You know why? Government has guns, corporations don't. What we see in CORPORATISM, which you are either ignorant of or avoiding, (probably the latter) is a symbiotic merging of corporate and governmental power structures.

Bingo.

Corporations also don't have the monopoly on the proactive use of those guns, without any repercussions whatsoever...Something that arrogant preening windbags like Liberoidal Illogic refuse to wrap their pointy little heads around.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Let me simplify it for you since you seem unfamiliar with the term. Corporatacracy is a government controlled by Corporations, SIGs, PACs and Unions.

That is idiocy. Corporations cannot control government. You know why? Government has guns, corporations don't. What we see in CORPORATISM, which you are either ignorant of or avoiding, (probably the latter) is a symbiotic merging of corporate and governmental power structures.

Bingo.

Corporations also don't have the monopoly on the proactive use of those guns, without any repercussions whatsoever...Something that arrogant preening windbags like Liberoidal Illogic refuse to wrap their pointy little heads around.

LOL! Well having you disagree with me validates any claim I might make. So thanks.

So your belief is:

1. That the Billions poured into campaigns have no effect? Then why spend it?
2. That once those Special Interests have installed the candidate they paid for in power, they don't seek any reciprocity or effect policy?
3. That if they ignore the will of those who put them in office, those same people won't spend their money replacing them?

But corporations and their money don't buy our elections or effect our policies.
Geez dude, I knew you were stupid but I didn't realize you were THAT big of a complete f-ing moron!

So what if we could just eliminate or decimate the influence of Corporations, PACs and Unions?
Would it really be so bad if the power of the individual voter was the greatest force in our country?

You may now continue proving my signature below accurate - cuz you know, issues and direct questions have been discussed.

 

[Oddball]

No, your claim is invalid no matter how many egocentric contortions you go through to rationalize it.

1) The billions poured into campaigns wouldn't be poured in if there weren't politicians selling something.

2) That's about it.

 

[dnsmith35]

LOL! Well having you disagree with me validates any claim I might make. So thanks.

You may now continue proving my signature below accurate - cuz you know, issues and direct questions have been discussed.

What I see of you is a party line sheeple following all the leftwingnut talking points without so much as willgling a brain cell.

Why don't you learn to think for yourself instead of kneejerk suppor to the DNC

 

[Uncensored2008]

Dude! Um, don't know how to break this to you. The banks have not paid back all the bailout money.

Follow the money: Bailout tracker - CNNMoney.com

Try doing some research - yes they have paid it back with interest.

Look, I'm a Libertarian from the Murray Rothbard school, I adamantly opposed TARP, it was a direct assault on capitalism. A FREE market means the freedom to FAIL as well as succeed. The means of restoring equilibrium to the market was to let the banks reap the rewards of their acts by failing, just as any other poorly managed business would.

Allow me to show you how a point is addressed directly. No spin, change of subject nothing. GM should be required to pay back all the money immediately or broken up so they are never again "too big to fail". After that. No bailouts. Notice how I didn't say "Yeah but the Republicans did...."

I'm glad YOU feel that way, but you certainly do NOT represent the Shitter movement and is only your personal opinion. Why do I say this? Because SEIU is the majority of movement and is there precisely to promote and safeguard bailouts to Unions.

SEIU ULTCW Members to Join Occupy LA Rally

Obviously you want that to be true but you're misinformed. Unless you've recently joined OWS and have direct knowledge?

How would sitting in a tent, smoking pot provide direct knowledge of anything?

You didn't even seem to grasp that your so-called movement is nothing but a front for the greedy Unions, that money grubbing 12% demanding more and more from the 88%.

You obviously project what you want, onto others. You're about as accurate as the people who say the Tea Party want the USA to become a theocracy. Guess what, They're wrong too.

This is documented fact, you seek to spread propaganda in some desperate hope to make the Shitters palatable to the American public.

The FACT is that these are Union leeches wanting to suck the lifeblood out of the nation, as they always do.

Have your knees checked. I mean obviously that's your reaction because you want anything from our movement to be "wrong".

Nice dodge. But if I asked a 1,000 people at Occupy LA what GLB is, no one will know, not even the 3 who AREN'T part of SEIU or La Raza

Are you aware Newt Gingrich just stated he agrees with us on this point? Danm Liberal!

I don't care what Newt agree or doesn't agree with.

So basically, you've tried very hard to project what you've seen on the MSM or RW media onto OWS but guess what you've admitted?

What I have stated are the facts. The facts are contrary to YOUR agenda, but your agenda does not define the Shitter agenda. There IS no Shitter agenda beyond "Gimmee Gimmee Gimmee," which naturally attracted the Unions, who now dwarf the original Van Jones contingent.

You agree with OWS that Corporatacracy is bad for America. Good for you!

Actually, "Corporatacracy" is an illiterate term. I oppose corporatism, AKA fascism. The Shitter movement will NOT openly oppose it, because Barack Obama is THE major proponent and advocate of fascism in America and is actively merging the federal government with corporate power structures. Since 100% of the Shitters who bother to vote, did and will vote for Obama, they will not openly oppose corporatism. Hence the fabricated word "corporatacracy."

You agree with OWS on no more bailouts. Good for you!

We capitalists opposed the bailout while you were still an Obamabot demanding that only TARP would stop the next depression.

So the two things you understand, you agree with. The other one you obviously don't understand (LOVE the WalMart reference! Yeah. THAT made sense!)

I wondered, you portray yourself as having knowledge, but I suspected you didn't.

One of the main reasons that GLB was passed was that Walmart was moving to open a commercial bank. The primary provision that hooked the big Wall Street banks was a prohibition of commercial retailers entering the finance market.

I figured you had no idea about this. Like most of the left, you read talking points and don't grasp the nuance involved. KOS told you that GLB is bad, ergo to you it is the root of all evil.

and therefore have decided that Newt Gingrich is promoting DNC Goals!

Logical fallacy is not actually an effective means of making an argument.

Always good to see objectivity and reason! Well oaky, this was fun too. Don't worry at least you TRIED to discuss the issues. Puts you way above most Conservs on this thread.

Most of my peers won't put the effort in because your positions are absurd.

 

[hortysir]

I guess a lot of people here just believe what the MSM and Right Wing E-media
tell them. This would be the only explanation for some of the posts I've seen.
So I thought I'd help! Here is a C&P from a great OWS site. It will give you
guys a better idea of why you should support us! Here ya go:

"1. We don't want to End Capitalism, We Want to End Corporatacracy.

First, let's make it clear, This is a political movement, not an economic
revolt. We want to end the control of our government by Multi-National
Corporations. This is Issue Number One for everyone I've spoken to in Occupy
Wall Street.

Not one Occupier I know of, wants to turn us into the former Soviet Union (although just like the TP, every movement has it's fringe and the MSM loves to find them). We
don't want to end the economic system which allows people to buy the goods of
their choice. But we do want to end a corrupt political system which allows
Multi-National Corporations to buy the politicians of their choice. So the
single most important theme is Taking control of our government away from
Corporations and putting it back into the hands of We the People.

2. We won't tolerate a government that rewards corporate incompetence, greed and
fraud. No More Bank Bailouts.

The banks bought our government and then, after they lined their pockets with
the wealth of our nation, they blackmailed the government into giving them even
MORE money "In order to keep the economy from collapsing". Right. Then, instead
of making or refinancing home loans, Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo and
others spent our money on business mergers & acquisitions to benefit the 1%. Oh,
and of course, they paid themselves million dollar bonuses with our money.

We want to set a deadline for payback of existing bailouts. Any company that has
not fully repaid all monies by the deadline, should be broken up so that they
are no longer "too big to fail".

3. We want the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed immediately.
For those of you unfamiliar with it: After the Great Depression, congress passed
the Glass-Steagal act to make sure that banks would never take stupid risks or
use corrupt practices to send the country into another Depression. Then 60 years
later, the banks and companies that bought and paid for Republican Senators Bill
Gramm, Jim Leach and Tom Bliley told them that Glass-Steagal was interfering
with their ability to swindle the American Public. Their masters told these
senators to pass a bill that would NOT ONLY allow them to gamble foolishly again
with American Tax-Payer money - they wanted complete control of our Financial
System by being able OWN both stock brokerages and Insurance Companies too.
Then, once their cohorts completed the creation of what's called a "FIRE
Economy" (an economy based on Finance, Insurance & Real Estate) in America, they
would control everything.

Of course the Senators bowed to their masters and Gramm-Leach-Bliley was passed
with a super-majority that was veto-proof. If it had not been passed, NOT ONE
BANK would have needed bailout money because they would have been prohibited
from investing in the Commercial Mortgage Backed Securities Market.

Some people say we should let "The Market" regulate itself. Are the Banksters
worthy of the trust that was given to them under this law? Here's an example:
Citibank is on trial right now.
While they were selling over $500 MILLION dollars worth of those
toxic mortgage securities to the 99% as a good investment, they were betting the
securities would fail by "Short-Selling" at the same time. In other words, while
they sold your parents these securities for their retirement, they made a bet
the securities would fail - and earned over $140M dollars by doing so. Citibank
is currently offering to pay back about half the money they defrauded out of
regular people as long as no one from the bank goes to jail or even loses their
job. Guess what? The government is going for it. Why? Because the 1% doesn't
have to pay for their crimes. We do. In this case, WE'RE paying their $285M fee
with the bailout money they were given. And people wonder why we're mad."

That's just a small part of the REAL message of OWS. it's a little bit different
than what the SpinDoctors of the MSM and Right Wing media talk about or allow
you to see, isn't it?

The Whole World is watching and listening to our message. Foreign stations give more accurate coverage than FOX - who still spews BS about wanting Socialism and anarchy.

Here is an example of the more accurate foreign coverage of our message:

Occupy Wall Street Exposes Enormous Corruption Between Government and Corporations - YouTube

OWS propaganda or right-leaning news outlets?

Hmmmmm......which to choose???

My guess would be somewhere between the 2.

 

[dnsmith35]

How did 6% of American mortgages being in foreclosure cause the collapse of the world financial market?

By collapsing the artificially inflated value of the other 94%

Do you have a point?

What some of these fools do not take into account is, the 6% foreclosure rate does not include the even larger % of real estate in default. They try hard to exclude from blame the homeowners who bought more than they could afford in an inflated market, the CRA defaults, ARMs secured by people who overbought because of low initial interest or speculators who used ARMs expecting to turn the property over before interest increases.

All of those things CAUSED the banking failure/recession, not the other way around. The recession only exacerbated the real estate bust.

 

[dnsmith35]

OWS propaganda or right-leaning news outlets?

Hmmmmm......which to choose???

My guess would be somewhere between the 2.

These nutters will do anything to avoid admitting that they are sheeples following left wing propaganda sites.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Q: So what if we could just eliminate or decimate the influence of Corporations, PACs and Unions?
Would it really be so bad if the power of the individual voter was the greatest force in our country?

No, your claim is invalid no matter how many egocentric contortions you go through to rationalize it.

1) The billions poured into campaigns wouldn't be poured in if there weren't politicians selling something.

2) That's about it.

Like I said, thank you for proving my post below. Although in your defense, that would have required independent thought and the courage to simply say "Well that would be good!" or "No, I LIKE the way things are."

Some day when you grow a pair, we might just see a direct answer out of you!

 

[OODA_Loop]

Q: So what if we could just eliminate or decimate the influence of Corporations, PACs and Unions?

we have these laws in place now

 

[IndependntLogic]

LOL! Well having you disagree with me validates any claim I might make. So thanks.

You may now continue proving my signature below accurate - cuz you know, issues and direct questions have been discussed.

What I see of you is a party line sheeple following all the leftwingnut talking points without so much as willgling a brain cell.

Why don't you learn to think for yourself instead of kneejerk suppor to the DNC

Um yeah. Says the complete f*ing idiot who doesn't have the balls to address the issues discussed in the thread. Keep proving my signature below for me would you? Thanks. Appreciate it.
Here; let me dumb it down for you:

Campaign Finance Reform
Overturn Citizens United (as hell, lost you there! That would require knowledge and stuff...)
No Bailouts (Oh hell, lost ya again)
Repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley (Now WHO is it that recently agreed with us on this? Ahhh, that Liberal guy. Still you better dodge this - requires thought)

Like Oddball, when you grow a pair and can think for yourself enough to address issues directly, write us a note, would you? Or get someone to do it for you!

 

[Bern80]

LOL! Well having you disagree with me validates any claim I might make. So thanks.

You may now continue proving my signature below accurate - cuz you know, issues and direct questions have been discussed.

What I see of you is a party line sheeple following all the leftwingnut talking points without so much as willgling a brain cell.

Why don't you learn to think for yourself instead of kneejerk suppor to the DNC

Um yeah. Says the complete f*ing idiot who doesn't have the balls to address the issues discussed in the thread. Keep proving my signature below for me would you? Thanks. Appreciate it.
Here; let me dumb it down for you:

Campaign Finance Reform
Overturn Citizens United (as hell, lost you there! That would require knowledge and stuff...)
No Bailouts (Oh hell, lost ya again)
Repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley (Now WHO is it that recently agreed with us on this? Ahhh, that Liberal guy.
Still you better dodge this - requires thought)

Like Oddball, when you grow a pair and can think for yourself enough to address issues directly, write us a note, would you? Or get someone to do it for you!

It isn't so much an attack on you dude. It's simply calling bullshit on the OWSers who who claim they want corporate america out of government. If they really were enfuriated with the level of inlfuence special interests have with government they would be bashing the organized labor unions just as much as their bashing 'traditional' corporate america because for all practical intents today's unions are also corporations. Their heads and upper management make millions if not billions, just like 'traditional' CEOs and they contribute heavily to political candidates, mostly democrats. A group whom, surprise, surprise, OWS is mostly comprised of. Intellectually honesty and objectivity are the things I look for in those trying to make their case. So far I'm just not seeing it from OWS. I would imagine if you really called their bluff and suggested that all labor unions be banned from speaking up for candidates and contributing to them you would see an awful lot go 'oh, well I didn't actually mean them.'

As I said before I am all for most of the stuff you mentioned in your original post. I just am not convinced that's what OWS really is. I like to consider myself a fairly objective person and the perception I have of OWS is they're a group of hippies who are upset at the rich for know good reason other than being rich. They come off as entitled in that whatever it is they want to make their lives better is the responsibility of someone else to provide.