Is a business allowed to violate civil rights?

[Quantum Windbag]

As I explained earlier, you cannot really say that the free market did not prevent discrimination before the CRA because there wasn't a free market before then. the laws prohibited businesses from integrating even if they wanted to. I can easily argue that the fact that they had to write those laws is an indication that the free market could have dealt with the problem.

Something to think about there.

I'd never thought of it in that light. To me, it has always seemed to be that the people made those decisions. It was what they wanted not what the law said.

I actually find it hard to think of the South that I know from my growing up years would have accepted desegregation if it was not forced upon them. I must say, that thought is going to take some real thinking on, because I find it completely contradictory to what I have always "known" about the south.

Maybe where I'm struggling here is in which laws? Are we talking about state laws or federal law, because I can see where state laws in the South might have been written in such a manner as to require segregation, but then those laws are written by the people in the community and then you would in fact have the people making those laws so is there a difference?

Immie

Don't get me wrong, it would not have happened overnight. I still know people in the south who support segregation, but none of them are not business owners, they can't afford that type of attitude.

As for which laws, the south was dominated by Jim Crow laws, but they extended to the north, and were even part of the federal government. The military was segregated until 1948. After Truman signed that executive order everything else was inevitable.

Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Quantum Windbag]

As I explained earlier, you cannot really say that the free market did not prevent discrimination before the CRA because there wasn't a free market before then. the laws prohibited businesses from integrating even if they wanted to. I can easily argue that the fact that they had to write those laws is an indication that the free market could have dealt with the problem.

No. No Laws forced those establishments to put up "Whites Only" signs.

That was the prerogative of the owner. You are talking out of your ass.

Go look through all the records and see how many of those signs you can find that were up in the south. Most of them were in the north, where the law did not force segregation, and those that were in the south were also in areas that did not have Jim Crow laws. Do you see any business putting up signs that say they serve everyone? Of course not, because that is spending money they do not need to spend, which is the last thing any evil capitalist who is only out to line his pockets with the hard earned wages of poor folk would do.

 

[Immanuel]

As I explained earlier, you cannot really say that the free market did not prevent discrimination before the CRA because there wasn't a free market before then. the laws prohibited businesses from integrating even if they wanted to. I can easily argue that the fact that they had to write those laws is an indication that the free market could have dealt with the problem.

Something to think about there.

I'd never thought of it in that light. To me, it has always seemed to be that the people made those decisions. It was what they wanted not what the law said.

I actually find it hard to think of the South that I know from my growing up years would have accepted desegregation if it was not forced upon them. I must say, that thought is going to take some real thinking on, because I find it completely contradictory to what I have always "known" about the south.

Maybe where I'm struggling here is in which laws? Are we talking about state laws or federal law, because I can see where state laws in the South might have been written in such a manner as to require segregation, but then those laws are written by the people in the community and then you would in fact have the people making those laws so is there a difference?

Immie

Don't get me wrong, it would not have happened overnight. I still know people in the south who support segregation, but none of them are not business owners, they can't afford that type of attitude.

As for which laws, the south was dominated by Jim Crow laws, but they extended to the north, and were even part of the federal government. The military was segregated until 1948. After Truman signed that executive order everything else was inevitable.

Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I grew up in the West... beautiful, unloved (more likely hated) California and I believe it to have been fairly desegregated.

I now live in beautiful Florida... by the way, it is always 110 degrees in the shade 365 days a year so all of you who hate the heat don't bother coming down here... and I can tell you that racism is alive and well in the South.

I don't think "over night" comes close to reality, because I think that if it weren't for the CRA, we'd probably still see segregated restaurants and maybe even restrooms and drinking fountains too boot.

Immie

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Something to think about there.

I'd never thought of it in that light. To me, it has always seemed to be that the people made those decisions. It was what they wanted not what the law said.

I actually find it hard to think of the South that I know from my growing up years would have accepted desegregation if it was not forced upon them. I must say, that thought is going to take some real thinking on, because I find it completely contradictory to what I have always "known" about the south.

Maybe where I'm struggling here is in which laws? Are we talking about state laws or federal law, because I can see where state laws in the South might have been written in such a manner as to require segregation, but then those laws are written by the people in the community and then you would in fact have the people making those laws so is there a difference?

Immie

Don't get me wrong, it would not have happened overnight. I still know people in the south who support segregation, but none of them are not business owners, they can't afford that type of attitude.

As for which laws, the south was dominated by Jim Crow laws, but they extended to the north, and were even part of the federal government. The military was segregated until 1948. After Truman signed that executive order everything else was inevitable.

Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I grew up in the West... beautiful, unloved (more likely hated) California and I believe it to have been fairly desegregated.

I now live in beautiful Florida... by the way, it is always 110 degrees in the shade 365 days a year so all of you who hate the heat don't bother coming down here... and I can tell you that racism is alive and well in the South.

I don't think "over night" comes close to reality, because I think that if it weren't for the CRA, we'd probably still see segregated restaurants and maybe even restrooms and drinking fountains too boot.

Immie

Maybe you should look a bit closer at the world around you. We do see all of that, maybe because of the CRA.

 

[Immanuel]

Don't get me wrong, it would not have happened overnight. I still know people in the south who support segregation, but none of them are not business owners, they can't afford that type of attitude.

As for which laws, the south was dominated by Jim Crow laws, but they extended to the north, and were even part of the federal government. The military was segregated until 1948. After Truman signed that executive order everything else was inevitable.

Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I grew up in the West... beautiful, unloved (more likely hated) California and I believe it to have been fairly desegregated.

I now live in beautiful Florida... by the way, it is always 110 degrees in the shade 365 days a year so all of you who hate the heat don't bother coming down here... and I can tell you that racism is alive and well in the South.

I don't think "over night" comes close to reality, because I think that if it weren't for the CRA, we'd probably still see segregated restaurants and maybe even restrooms and drinking fountains too boot.

Immie

Maybe you should look a bit closer at the world around you. We do see all of that, maybe because of the CRA.

I don't typically drink water from a water fountain. I have this quirk about public drinking fountains, but I don't recall noticing any marked "whites only". Restrooms either. I don't recall ever having noticed people of different ethnic origins being denied service in a restaurant I have patronized.

Believe me, when I do see that in a restaurant, I won't be eating there. I'm typically a very quiet person, but if I noticed something like that, I would probably be arrested because before I left the restaurant I would make a big stink about the way the owners treated other people.

Immie

 

[syrenn]

I grew up in the West... beautiful, unloved (more likely hated) California and I believe it to have been fairly desegregated.

I now live in beautiful Florida... by the way, it is always 110 degrees in the shade 365 days a year so all of you who hate the heat don't bother coming down here... and I can tell you that racism is alive and well in the South.

I don't think "over night" comes close to reality, because I think that if it weren't for the CRA, we'd probably still see segregated restaurants and maybe even restrooms and drinking fountains too boot.

Immie

I am from california too. However I aslo see the asians hanging with the asians. The lations hanging with the lations. The blacks hanging with the blacks. We have the "asian pages" so other asians can be sure to choose them over all other business.

Is that racism? Or just people preferring to be with people like themselves?

 

[Immanuel]

I grew up in the West... beautiful, unloved (more likely hated) California and I believe it to have been fairly desegregated.

I now live in beautiful Florida... by the way, it is always 110 degrees in the shade 365 days a year so all of you who hate the heat don't bother coming down here... and I can tell you that racism is alive and well in the South.

I don't think "over night" comes close to reality, because I think that if it weren't for the CRA, we'd probably still see segregated restaurants and maybe even restrooms and drinking fountains too boot.

Immie

Maybe you should look a bit closer at the world around you. We do see all of that, maybe because of the CRA.

I don't typically drink water from a water fountain. I have this quirk about public drinking fountains, but I don't recall noticing any marked "whites only". Restrooms either. I don't recall ever having noticed people of different ethnic origins being denied service in a restaurant I have patronized.

Believe me, when I do see that in a restaurant, I won't be eating there. I'm typically a very quiet person, but if I noticed something like that, I would probably be arrested because before I left the restaurant I would make a big stink about the way the owners treated other people.

Immie

I take that back, I and my family were personally denied service in a restaurant back in 1992. We had traveled to Nashville TN for vacation and driven out to Memphis and down into Mississippi to see the country. In Mississippi, first town south of the TN border, I can't recall the name we stopped at a restaurant for a late lunch. We entered the restaurant, it was very dark and sat down and waited.

After a few minutes, a waitress yelled at us, "Can I help you?". She didn't come to the table she hollered across the room and I said we wanted some lunch. Well, she basically told us we should go to the White side of town for lunch. Believe me, I got the hint and was somewhat saddened by the incident. I would have enjoyed having a few minutes to talk with her. I told her we were from California and didn't know... and left. She was by no means rude, but the message was clear, we did not belong in that area. I have always written that off as a friendly warning from her and like I said, I wish that I had had the opportunity to talk with her and the people in the restaurant.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

I grew up in the West... beautiful, unloved (more likely hated) California and I believe it to have been fairly desegregated.

I now live in beautiful Florida... by the way, it is always 110 degrees in the shade 365 days a year so all of you who hate the heat don't bother coming down here... and I can tell you that racism is alive and well in the South.

I don't think "over night" comes close to reality, because I think that if it weren't for the CRA, we'd probably still see segregated restaurants and maybe even restrooms and drinking fountains too boot.

Immie

I am from california too. However I aslo see the asians hanging with the asians. The lations hanging with the lations. The blacks hanging with the blacks. We have the "asian pages" so other asians can be sure to choose them over all other business.

Is that racism? Or just people preferring to be with people like themselves?

Hanging with people of your own kind may be considered racism to some extent and I agree that it happened when I was there, but hanging out with your friends and people like you, is not the same as being denied access to other peoples or the places that they eat at, IMHO.

Immie

 

[syrenn]

I take that back, I and my family were personally denied service in a restaurant back in 1992. We had traveled to Nashville TN for vacation and driven out to Memphis and down into Mississippi to see the country. In Mississippi, first town south of the TN border, I can't recall the name we stopped at a restaurant for a late lunch. We entered the restaurant, it was very dark and sat down and waited.

After a few minutes, a waitress yelled at us, "Can I help you?". She didn't come to the table she hollered across the room and I said we wanted some lunch. Well, she basically told us we should go to the White side of town for lunch. Believe me, I got the hint and was somewhat saddened by the incident. I would have enjoyed having a few minutes to talk with her. I told her we were from California and didn't know... and left. She was by no means rude, but the message was clear, we did not belong in that area. I have always written that off as a friendly warning from her and like I said, I wish that I had had the opportunity to talk with her and the people in the restaurant.

Immie

Hanging with people of your own kind may be considered racism to some extent and I agree that it happened when I was there, but hanging out with your friends and people like you, is not the same as being denied access to other peoples or the places that they eat at, IMHO.

Immie

So tell me, why did you leave, because there was a sign that said no whites? And why didn't you stay?

Was it discrimination? Did you feel like your civil rights had been denied or offended?

Or did you just feel like they were idiots and take your business and money elsewhere?

 

[Zona]

I have got a question.

Why would someone who is being "discriminated" against want to spend their money in a business that doesn't want them?

Because they are ass hole idiots? Or because they love watching those who would "discriminate" grind their teeth?

The best way to get your way is to dry up the money. So do patronize businesses that you "think" are "discriminating" pretty simple if you ask me.

As to restaurants I would love to discriminate, and not allow children in! Noisy annoying filthy little fuckers that they are. Is that discriminating? Does that have anything to do color?

Question, if a fire department is captained by a black buy and the fire alarm goes of at Joe Bob's Waffle and No Blacks Allowed, Flap Jack Shop. What if that black captains says, hell no, we wont put that fire out...they don't want us to eat there, they can burn...

Same principle with the cops.

Then what?

See a little problem with all this?

 

[syrenn]

Question, if a fire department is captained by a black buy and the fire alarm goes of at Joe Bob's Waffle and No Blacks Allowed, Flap Jack Shop. What if that black captains says, hell no, we wont put that fire out...they don't want us to eat there, they can burn...

Same principle with the cops.

Then what?

See a little problem with all this?

First off I didn't say anything about blacks, of which you do seem to have a very large problem. Do not project your shit on me.

Second fire or police departments are civil service and not a private business.

Third you didn't have jack to say about the children now did you?

 

[Zona]

Question, if a fire department is captained by a black buy and the fire alarm goes of at Joe Bob's Waffle and No Blacks Allowed, Flap Jack Shop. What if that black captains says, hell no, we wont put that fire out...they don't want us to eat there, they can burn...

Same principle with the cops.

Then what?

See a little problem with all this?

First off I didn't say anything about blacks, of which you do seem to have a very large problem. Do not project your shit on me.

Second fire or police departments are civil service and not a private business.

Third you didn't have jack to say about the children now did you?

I used this as an example...we can substitute the word black with asian, hispanic, gay...whatever signs that happened to be in the window of that racist who ran that waffle house....


So those private businesses are supported by civil service? Ah so they have to follow some kind of rules, ya think? Or are the gubment run fire departments and police officers only good in certain instances?

 

[syrenn]

I used this as an example...we can substitute the word black with asian, hispanic, gay...whatever signs that happened to be in the window of that racist who ran that waffle house....

So those private businesses are supported by civil service? Ah so they have to follow some kind of rules, ya think? Or are the gubment run fire departments and police officers only good in certain instances?

I don't care if they are green with purple eyes and scales. A civil servant is just that, payed for by the taxpayers. To serve the taxpayers. That being said I want civil servants that are best qualified for the job and not ones that are mandated for %.

 

[Ravi]

How amusing...there is no self-determination if their is slavery you flipping idiot.

You might have had a point if the North had fought a war to end slavery- or if Lincoln had at least issued an Emancipation Proclamation freeing the slaves in the Union.

But they didn't and he didn't and there were slave states in the Union fighting against the CSA during the Confederate War for Independence- so you just look like an idiot. I guess that's par for the course with you, though.

None of that matters. Self-determination can't be ruled against if there was no self-determination. And in the case of the south, owning slaves meant there was no self-determination.

You'll have to find another reason to be annoyed at SCOTUS.

 

[Ravi]

For the record, I'm not saying SCOTUS was wrong. I'm saying that the Constitution is right when the question is what the Constitution says.

It's the Constitution that says SCOTUS was wrong.

Actually, it doesn't. The constitution says all men are created equal. Both sides that owned slaves and made women into a servant class were wrong...but if SCOTUS ruled that the South was using self-determination to split from the Union it would be even worse than saying it wasn't...because it would have been incorrect.

 

[Ravi]

I did not read the whole thread as it is 11 pages, so if this is repeated, excuse me.

An eatery, etc., is a place of "public accomodation", and the services offered can not be defacto denied because of race, color, religion, etc.

Heart of Atlanta Motel, US SC, comes to mind for a hotel case.

Yes, thank you...it was pointed out. I was hoping someone could explain why they felt a business could discriminate but I've given up believing that anyone can.

I actually did prove it, and you admitted it. Private clubs are businesses.

As an example of a business that can legally discriminate that is not a private club I simply point you to any Rodeo Drive jewelry store that keeps its doors locked during business hours. By not simply allowing everyone to walk in off the street they are discriminating by whatever method they choose to use, and it is completely legal. They do not fall under the provisions of the CRA because they are not engaged in public accommodation.

Again, I'm talking about business that is open to the public.

 

[Ravi]

I have got a question.

Why would someone who is being "discriminated" against want to spend their money in a business that doesn't want them?

Because they are ass hole idiots? Or because they love watching those who would "discriminate" grind their teeth?

The best way to get your way is to dry up the money. So do patronize businesses that you "think" are "discriminating" pretty simple if you ask me.

As to restaurants I would love to discriminate, and not allow children in! Noisy annoying filthy little fuckers that they are. Is that discriminating? Does that have anything to do color?

Is this like saying, if you don't want to pay taxes...move out of the country?

 

[Ravi]

Anywho...thanks all for an interesting discussion. You've helped me clarify my thoughts.

The constitution itself forbids banning someone from a public place because of race, gender, etc because we have the freedom to associate. The CRA merely clarified this, it created no new law.

And it is supremely silly to claim that the free market would correct this in the end. It isn't the duty of the free market to protect our civil rights.

 

[JBeukema]

The Constitution clearly states via the 10th amendment that the States have a right to secede.

No it doesn't. You're fucking insane. You should secede yourself and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.[/quote]

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Now show me where in the Constitution the power to dissolve their ties with the other member States and the common governance (Fed) is denied to the States. WHat article? What paragraph? What Amendment? Show me where the Constitution says that Congress must approve a State's decision to leave the Union altogether.Show me where in the Constitution the power to leave the Union is prohibited to the States or the power to release a member State from the Union is given to the United States [the central or common government of the Union]

If it's there, why can't you show it?
​

 

[manifold]

It isn't the duty of the free market to protect our civil rights.

Strawman ALERT!

Nobody said it was. The question is when is it ok for the government to infringe on individual liberty to address what some see as a social ill. Clearly you think it's ALWAYS ok except of course for smoking bans in restaurants.