Is a business allowed to violate civil rights?

[manifold]

It isn't the duty of the free market to protect our civil rights.

Strawman ALERT!

Nobody said it was. The question is when is it ok for the government to infringe on individual liberty to address what some see as a social ill. Clearly you think it's ALWAYS ok except of course for smoking bans in restaurants.

Up the thread the case was made that the free market would eventually stop people from discriminating is it is no strawman.

I don't see denying someone freedom as a social ill, lol.

Bullshit. Nobody said it's the duty of the free market to protect civil rights.

It is a classic strawman, like most everything you post.

 

[Immanuel]

So tell me, why did you leave, because there was a sign that said no whites? And why didn't you stay?

Was it discrimination? Did you feel like your civil rights had been denied or offended?

Or did you just feel like they were idiots and take your business and money elsewhere?

I left because I didn't feel safe.

The way she said it, was more or less like a warning. Like, "you don't belong in this restaurant and if you don't leave I'm not responsible for your safety". I had two little girls with me, I think I said it was 1992, it had to be earlier than that now that I think about as my youngest daughter was less than two and she was born in 1987.

Were my rights violated? I'd have to say in some respect, yes, but I think she would have served us if we had insisted on it. I didn't feel like they were idiots. I felt like maybe I was a little naive not realizing that there is still racial tension in the South even in the late 1980's.

As for a sign like you mentioned, I don't know if there was a sign. The room was very dark almost like a bar.

Immie

Sorry to put you on the spot like that Immie, but the point I was trying to get out of you was discrimination or not, Civil rights or not, your left and took your business elsewhere.

Your were more or less told you were"in the wrong place." Interesting since it seems as many here only think that kind of treatment goes one way. Thank you for sharing your first hand experience.

Face up to it folks, your pet discrimination civil rights issues goes both ways.

Good for you Immie! I wouldn't patronize a business where I wasn't welcomed either OR one that participated in treating customers like that!

Wait, I think you mis-understand.

I didn't feel like I "wasn't welcomed", at least not by her. I felt like she was telling me, that we were not safe. Not that she had a problem with us being there, but rather that we were in a neighborhood that was unsafe for us. I think I said that it sounded more like a warning. She was telling us, "look sweethearts, for your own safety, you would be better off elsewhere".

Like I said, I would have loved to have stayed and chatted for a bit, but there were other people there and I wasn't sure that we were safe. It was dark enough in the restaurant, that I could not even see her. She is only a voice now. That was all she ever was. I never even saw her face. There were probably a half dozen other people in the place. There's no telling what could have happened.

Was it discrimination? Technically yes. Was it a violation of my civil rights? I don't know... did she save my ass from someone in the room that would not have taken kindly to a white family eating there? If that is the case, then please by all means, violate my civil rights.

Immie

 

[syrenn]

I left because I didn't feel safe.

The way she said it, was more or less like a warning. Like, "you don't belong in this restaurant and if you don't leave I'm not responsible for your safety". I had two little girls with me, I think I said it was 1992, it had to be earlier than that now that I think about as my youngest daughter was less than two and she was born in 1987.

Were my rights violated? I'd have to say in some respect, yes, but I think she would have served us if we had insisted on it. I didn't feel like they were idiots. I felt like maybe I was a little naive not realizing that there is still racial tension in the South even in the late 1980's.

As for a sign like you mentioned, I don't know if there was a sign. The room was very dark almost like a bar.

Immie

Sorry to put you on the spot like that Immie, but the point I was trying to get out of you was discrimination or not, Civil rights or not, your left and took your business elsewhere.

Your were more or less told you were"in the wrong place." Interesting since it seems as many here only think that kind of treatment goes one way. Thank you for sharing your first hand experience.

Face up to it folks, your pet discrimination civil rights issues goes both ways.

Good for you Immie! I wouldn't patronize a business where I wasn't welcomed either OR one that participated in treating customers like that!

Wait, I think you mis-understand.

I didn't feel like I "wasn't welcomed", at least not by her. I felt like she was telling me, that we were not safe. Not that she had a problem with us being there, but rather that we were in a neighborhood that was unsafe for us. I think I said that it sounded more like a warning. She was telling us, "look sweethearts, for your own safety, you would be better off elsewhere".

Like I said, I would have loved to have stayed and chatted for a bit, but there were other people there and I wasn't sure that we were safe. It was dark enough in the restaurant, that I could not even see her. She is only a voice now. That was all she ever was. I never even saw her face. There were probably a half dozen other people in the place. There's no telling what could have happened.

Was it discrimination? Technically yes. Was it a violation of my civil rights? I don't know... did she save my ass from someone in the room that would not have taken kindly to a white family eating there? If that is the case, then please by all means, violate my civil rights.

Immie

Ahhh yes, thank you for the elaboration. I am sorry if I miss interpreted you. Though now it seems worse. That you weren't safe not just there but in the entire neighborhood.

 

[Immanuel]

Sorry to put you on the spot like that Immie, but the point I was trying to get out of you was discrimination or not, Civil rights or not, your left and took your business elsewhere.

Your were more or less told you were"in the wrong place." Interesting since it seems as many here only think that kind of treatment goes one way. Thank you for sharing your first hand experience.

Face up to it folks, your pet discrimination civil rights issues goes both ways.

Good for you Immie! I wouldn't patronize a business where I wasn't welcomed either OR one that participated in treating customers like that!

Wait, I think you mis-understand.

I didn't feel like I "wasn't welcomed", at least not by her. I felt like she was telling me, that we were not safe. Not that she had a problem with us being there, but rather that we were in a neighborhood that was unsafe for us. I think I said that it sounded more like a warning. She was telling us, "look sweethearts, for your own safety, you would be better off elsewhere".

Like I said, I would have loved to have stayed and chatted for a bit, but there were other people there and I wasn't sure that we were safe. It was dark enough in the restaurant, that I could not even see her. She is only a voice now. That was all she ever was. I never even saw her face. There were probably a half dozen other people in the place. There's no telling what could have happened.

Was it discrimination? Technically yes. Was it a violation of my civil rights? I don't know... did she save my ass from someone in the room that would not have taken kindly to a white family eating there? If that is the case, then please by all means, violate my civil rights.

Immie

Ahhh yes, thank you for the elaboration. I am sorry if I miss interpreted you. Though now it seems worse. That you weren't safe not just there but in the entire neighborhood.

But... who's fault is that? There was a lot of history that this kid from the West had no clue about when he went to the South. To me it was "ancient history", whereas to people who have lived it all their lives, it was neither ancient nor history.

When I left the restaurant, I looked around and I must say that I did not feel "endangered", nor did I while I was sitting at the table waiting. There were a few people hanging around none of them white, but no one was watching us holding a baseball bat slapping it against the palm of their hands either. In fact, I don't think anyone outside of the restaurant even noticed us.

I have to say, to me the entire incident is still unbelievable. I still find myself (at times like right now) asking myself what really was going on. Who knows maybe there had been trouble in the area recently that I was unaware of.

Immie

 

[syrenn]

But... who's fault is that? There was a lot of history that this kid from the West had no clue about when he went to the South. To me it was "ancient history", whereas to people who have lived it all their lives, it was neither ancient nor history.

When I left the restaurant, I looked around and I must say that I did not feel "endangered", nor did I while I was sitting at the table waiting. There were a few people hanging around none of them white, but no one was watching us holding a baseball bat slapping it against the palm of their hands either. In fact, I don't think anyone outside of the restaurant even noticed us.

I have to say, to me the entire incident is still unbelievable. I still find myself (at times like right now) asking myself what really was going on. Who knows maybe there had been trouble in the area recently that I was unaware of.

Immie

Well aren't you a breath of fresh air, someone who can actually hold a conversation with and not a bunch of shit slinging insults...

Agreed, I too am from the west and have traveled well into the deep south.

I think the major point is this. The finger pointing over discrimination is not just in ONE direction. The feeling that I brought from the south is that the feeling is mutual. So in my opinion no harm no foul it goes both ways.

 

[Immanuel]

But... who's fault is that? There was a lot of history that this kid from the West had no clue about when he went to the South. To me it was "ancient history", whereas to people who have lived it all their lives, it was neither ancient nor history.

When I left the restaurant, I looked around and I must say that I did not feel "endangered", nor did I while I was sitting at the table waiting. There were a few people hanging around none of them white, but no one was watching us holding a baseball bat slapping it against the palm of their hands either. In fact, I don't think anyone outside of the restaurant even noticed us.

I have to say, to me the entire incident is still unbelievable. I still find myself (at times like right now) asking myself what really was going on. Who knows maybe there had been trouble in the area recently that I was unaware of.

Immie

Well aren't you a breath of fresh air, someone who can actually hold a conversation with and not a bunch of shit slinging insults...

Agreed, I too am from the west and have traveled well into the deep south.

I think the major point is this. The finger pointing over discrimination is not just in ONE direction. The feeling that I brought from the south is that the feeling is mutual. So in my opinion no harm no foul it goes both ways.

My opinion is that it needs to change. People just need to get over it and grow the heck up. What's done is done and I being white can't change it. Being middle class and unemployed at the moment, I surely can't make amends for what has happened.

Part of my family came from the South and I would bet a whole paycheck... um, if I had one that is, that they were slave owners. But to my knowledge, I have not inherited anything except a great mom and have not benefited in any way, shape or form from that time period.

If I could change the past I would... I can't so I won't.

Immie

 

[JBeukema]

Secession can't be legal without self-determination, JB.

the act or power of making up one's own mind about what to think or do, without outside influence or compulsion

There is no self-determination if you own slaves...Self-determination back in the day was only for WASP males.

Sucks to be you.

Give it a rest.

Thanks. Good to see you think that the FF had no legal or moral right to kick the king to the curb

 

[Ravi]

Really? So you are assuming by what someone looks like if they can afford your products? Interesting that you should think so.

I don't see where Ravi said that. You are making assumptions.

How exactly does this supposed jewelry store handle it's by appointment business?

I guess we'd need to know that first.

I for one, would like to know the name of this store.

The business I described lets people who knock into their front door after they knock, based on whatever criteria they use. What other criteria is available to someone looking at me through a Plexiglas door? Can they check my credit rating using facial recognition software? If so, I can make a pretty strong case that that is a violation of my civil rights.

Yes, you could. And in fact if they are only letting people of a certain color in then you'd have a case. If they are simply checking to see that you aren't wearing a ski mask and an overcoat in July then you don't have a case.

 

[Ravi]

Strawman ALERT!

Nobody said it was. The question is when is it ok for the government to infringe on individual liberty to address what some see as a social ill. Clearly you think it's ALWAYS ok except of course for smoking bans in restaurants.

Up the thread the case was made that the free market would eventually stop people from discriminating is it is no strawman.

I don't see denying someone freedom as a social ill, lol.

Bullshit. Nobody said it's the duty of the free market to protect civil rights.

It is a classic strawman, like most everything you post.

You cannot read. There were posts claiming that if left to the free market, people would boycott a business that violated someone's civil rights.

 

[Ravi]

Secession can't be legal without self-determination, JB.

the act or power of making up one's own mind about what to think or do, without outside influence or compulsion

There is no self-determination if you own slaves...Self-determination back in the day was only for WASP males.

Sucks to be you.

Give it a rest.

Thanks. Good to see you think that the FF had no legal or moral right to kick the king to the curb

I didn't say that. Certainly they were acting in a hypocritical manner and if you had been around back then and a monarchist you would have been welcome to make that case.

Their idea was sound but the implementation of it was a bit shaky.

Regardless, in the case of the South...two wrongs don't make a right so they had no claim to self-determination.

Now if they had freed the slaves and then split from the Union they would have been justified. But they didn't want to give up their slaves.

 

[Anguille]

Wait, I think you mis-understand.

I didn't feel like I "wasn't welcomed", at least not by her. I felt like she was telling me, that we were not safe. Not that she had a problem with us being there, but rather that we were in a neighborhood that was unsafe for us. I think I said that it sounded more like a warning. She was telling us, "look sweethearts, for your own safety, you would be better off elsewhere".

Like I said, I would have loved to have stayed and chatted for a bit, but there were other people there and I wasn't sure that we were safe. It was dark enough in the restaurant, that I could not even see her. She is only a voice now. That was all she ever was. I never even saw her face. There were probably a half dozen other people in the place. There's no telling what could have happened.

Was it discrimination? Technically yes. Was it a violation of my civil rights? I don't know... did she save my ass from someone in the room that would not have taken kindly to a white family eating there? If that is the case, then please by all means, violate my civil rights.

Immie

Ahhh yes, thank you for the elaboration. I am sorry if I miss interpreted you. Though now it seems worse. That you weren't safe not just there but in the entire neighborhood.

But... who's fault is that? There was a lot of history that this kid from the West had no clue about when he went to the South. To me it was "ancient history", whereas to people who have lived it all their lives, it was neither ancient nor history.

When I left the restaurant, I looked around and I must say that I did not feel "endangered", nor did I while I was sitting at the table waiting. There were a few people hanging around none of them white, but no one was watching us holding a baseball bat slapping it against the palm of their hands either. In fact, I don't think anyone outside of the restaurant even noticed us.

I have to say, to me the entire incident is still unbelievable. I still find myself (at times like right now) asking myself what really was going on. Who knows maybe there had been trouble in the area recently that I was unaware of.

Immie

Maybe she was suggesting you go somewhere else because the restaurant was closing up. You said it was dark, she was sitting down, maybe because she had just worked a long shift. Could be you had just stumbled into a place where kids were not welcome. And since she expected you'd get huffy if she said they weren't she figured she'd have better luck getting rid of you by pretending it wasn't safe for whites. Maybe you looked like a cheapskate tipper.
But maybe you did understand the situation afterall.

 

[manifold]

Up the thread the case was made that the free market would eventually stop people from discriminating is it is no strawman.

I don't see denying someone freedom as a social ill, lol.

Bullshit. Nobody said it's the duty of the free market to protect civil rights.

It is a classic strawman, like most everything you post.

You cannot read. There were posts claiming that if left to the free market, people would boycott a business that violated someone's civil rights.

It's not my reading at issue, it's your comprehension.

or you're just lying again.

 

[Anguille]

Bullshit. Nobody said it's the duty of the free market to protect civil rights.

It is a classic strawman, like most everything you post.

You cannot read. There were posts claiming that if left to the free market, people would boycott a business that violated someone's civil rights.

It's not my reading at issue, it's your comprehension.

or you're just lying again.

You need to get a new shtick. This one is worn out.

 

[Truthmatters]

Caging (voter suppression) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kinda hard to believe any republicans would really boycott any business that refused to serve people of color considering they Party itself activily tries to keep blacks from voting.

 

[manifold]

You cannot read. There were posts claiming that if left to the free market, people would boycott a business that violated someone's civil rights.

It's not my reading at issue, it's your comprehension.

or you're just lying again.

You need to get a new shtick. This one is worn out.

Ravi's bullshit is my schtick?

No, what qualifies as schtick is you hanging on my jock to post stupid shit like this.

And yes, it's very very old.

 

[Anguille]

It's not my reading at issue, it's your comprehension.

or you're just lying again.

You need to get a new shtick. This one is worn out.

Ravi's bullshit is my schtick?

No, what qualifies as schtick is you hanging on my jock to post stupid shit like this.

And yes, it's very very old.

Neg repping me, mani, is very stale. Like the rest of your act.

 

[manifold]

The CRA does not protect the civil rights of all. It establishes that some civil rights are less important than others. Namely, the right of association is pretty much the bottom of list, at least if you plan on earning a living. I'm not arguing that on the whole it hasn't been more good than bad or vice-versa, but academically at least, I believe it to be unconstitutional.

 

[Intense]

Caging (voter suppression) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kinda hard to believe any republicans would really boycott any business that refused to serve people of color considering they Party itself activily tries to keep blacks from voting.

It must be really lonely where you are TM. Your mind being so binary. Is your whole life yes or no? We are all related sister. The human condition is not politically exclusive either. You need to get past camp think.

 

[Ravi]

Bullshit. Nobody said it's the duty of the free market to protect civil rights.

It is a classic strawman, like most everything you post.

You cannot read. There were posts claiming that if left to the free market, people would boycott a business that violated someone's civil rights.

It's not my reading at issue, it's your comprehension.

or you're just lying again.

Let's review, shall we? Posters were saying that the markets could take care of this...because people would boycott or otherwise avoid a business that refused to serve certain segments of society. I made the comment that it isn't the duty of the free market to protect our rights. Raising the free market issue is a non sequitur.

It would be like saying that everyone knows that if you bring your vacuum to be repaired at manifold's shop he'll kill you if your existence offends him. Therefore, you are free to take your business elsewhere. The free markets saved me! The bad old government doesn't need to outlaw murder after all! Who needs a constitution that guarantees our civil rights!

 

[Ravi]

The CRA does not protect the civil rights of all. It establishes that some civil rights are less important than others. Namely, the right of association is pretty much the bottom of list, at least if you plan on earning a living. I'm not arguing that on the whole it hasn't been more good than bad or vice-versa, but academically at least, I believe it to be unconstitutional.

Really?

(a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

Necessary? No, it shouldn't have been. Unconstitutional, not at all.