Islam forbids

So it's islamic justice to put a fatwa out on Rushdie over a book? Or to kill the dutch guy over a movie?
No. Unless they're actively oppressing Muslims, acts of violence against them are unjustifiable. The proper response to that type of thing is explained here:

And when thou seest those who talk nonsense about Our messages, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse. And if the devil cause thee to forget, then sit not after recollection with the unjust people. - 6:68​

So kalam, are you on the side of jihad against infidels?
I'm on the side of jihad against any oppressor, including the so-called Islamic government of Sudan.

So you're a good muslim who would kill because you can tell who's oppressing whom? So why aren't you blowing yourself up in a government building in Sudan?

So the people who observe fatwas are wrong?
 
Regardless of what meaning you choose to ascribe to adh-dhulm, the Qur'an gives Muslims the following commandment:

And kill not the soul which Allah has forbidden except for a just cause. And whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority -- but let him not exceed the limit in slaying. Surely he will be helped. - 17:33​

What is "unjust"?

O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty. And keep your duty to Allah. Surely Allah is Aware of what you do. - 5:8​

Failure to act equitably. Therefore it can be concluded (again) that the slaying of innocents is forbidden.

'Umdat as-Salik wa 'Uddat an-Nasik

Page 602
09.6
“it is offensive to conduct a military expedition against hostile non-Muslims without the caliph’s permission,” but “if there is no caliph, no permission is required.”

Islamic scripture proves disbelief is an act of aggression . a hostile act.
I post Qur'anic scripture and you attempt to counter it with quotes from a book on Shafi'i jurisprudence? Sorry, sparky, that's not gonna fly.
Included was a link, your quran quotes have loop holes (just cause)
Your interpretation is interesting ,Im sure you have extensive writing from learned scholars to back up your opinion.
As it stands, it is not a main stream legal opinion .
its twisted logic does not met the standard of any kind of proof let alone unequivocal

PWHCE Middle East Project: Definition: Shirk, Sharaka, Mushrik
Mushrikin
A mushrik (plural mushrikin or mushrikeen) is a polytheist - one who shares the exclusive attributes of Allah with those other than Allah.
A mushrik (plural mushrikin or mushrikeen) is a polytheist they are Az-Zâlimûn .These are the names of those who create the greatest crimes

AL-ZULM (OPPRESSION)
The Meaning of Al-Zulm in Arabic:
The word Al-Zulm (oppression) is opposite to the word Al-A'del (justice) and is derived linguistically from the word Zalama which means the following:
Injustice, Darkness, Aggression, Doing the Inappropriate and Preventing a right etc.

Why would one treat such a criminal with equitably,
You wouldnt

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn

The Noble Quran : Surat 2

Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers


Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir.
 
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That does not mean a muslims cannot have equatable dealing with a disbeliever, they can , only for the limited purpose of calling them to Islam and putting the Islamic forces in place for future violence.

17.16. And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey Allâh and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.
 
The tafsir for 5:8

Justice is Always Necessary





Allah said,


﴿وَلاَ يَجْرِمَنَّكُمْ شَنَآنُ قَوْمٍ أَن صَدُّوكُمْ عَنِ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ أَن تَعْتَدُواْ﴾


(and let not the hatred of some people in (once) stopping you from Al-Masjid Al-Haram (at Makkah) lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part).) The meaning of this Ayah is apparent, as it commands: Let not the hatred for some people, who prevented you from reaching the Sacred House in the year of Hudaybiyyah, make you transgress Allah's Law and commit injustice against them in retaliation. Rather, rule as Allah has commanded you, being just with every one. We will explain a similar Ayah later on,


﴿وَلاَ يَجْرِمَنَّكُمْ شَنَآنُ قَوْمٍ عَلَى أَلاَّ تَعْدِلُواْ اعْدِلُواْ هُوَ أَقْرَبُ لِلتَّقْوَى﴾


(And let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety,) which commands: do not be driven by your hatred for some people into abandoning justice, for justice is ordained for everyone, in all situations. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Zayd bin Aslam said, "The Messenger of Allah and his Companions were in the area of Al-Hudaybiyyah when the idolators prevented them from visiting the House, and that was especially hard on them. Later on, some idolators passed by them from the east intending to perform `Umrah. So the Companions of the Prophet said, `Let us prevent those (from `Umrah) just as their fellow idolators prevented us.' Thereafter, Allah sent down this Ayah.'' Ibn Abbas and others said that "Shana'an'' refers to enmity and hate. Allah said next,


﴿وَتَعَاوَنُواْ عَلَى الْبرِّ وَالتَّقْوَى وَلاَ تَعَاوَنُواْ عَلَى الإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ﴾


(Help you one another in Al-Birr and At-Taqwa; but do not help one another in sin and transgression.) Allah commands His believing servants to help one another perform righteous, good deeds, which is the meaning of `Al-Birr', and to avoid sins, which is the meaning of `At-Taqwa'. Allah forbids His servants from helping one another in sin, `Ithm' and committing the prohibitions. Ibn Jarir said that, "Ithm means abandoning what Allah has ordained, while transgression means overstepping the limits that Allah set in your religion, along with overstepping what Allah has ordered concerning yourselves and others.'' Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas bin Malik said that the Messenger of Allah said,


«انْصُرْ أَخَاكَ ظَالِمًا أَوْ مَظْلُومًا»


(Support your brother whether he was unjust or the victim of injustice.) He was asked, "O Messenger of Allah! We know about helping him when he suffers injustice, so what about helping him when he commits injustice'' He said,


«تَحْجُزُهُ وَتَمْنَعُهُ مِنَ الظُّلْمِ فَذَاكَ نَصْرُه»


(Prevent and stop him from committing injustice, and this represents giving support to him.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith through Hushaym. Ahmad recorded that one of the Companions of the Prophet narrated the Hadith,


«الْمُؤْمِنُ الَّذِي يُخَالِطُ النَّاسَ وَيَصْبِرُ عَلَى أَذَاهُمْ أَعْظَمُ أَجْرًا مِنَ الَّذِي لَا يُخَالِطُ النَّاسَ وَلَا يَصْبِرُ عَلى أَذَاهُم»


(The believer who mingles with people and is patient with their annoyance, earns more reward than the believer who does not mingle with people and does not observe patience with their annoyance.) Muslim recorded a Hadith that states,


«مَنْ دَعَا إِلَى هُدًى كَانَ لَهُ مِنَ الْأَجْرِ مِثْلُ أُجُورِ مَنِ اتَّبَعَهُ إِلى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ لَا يَنْقُصُ ذلِكَ مِنْ أُجُورِهِمْ شَيْئًا، وَمَنْ دَعَا إِلَى ضَلَالَةٍ كَانَ عَلَيْهِ مِنَ الْإِثْمِ مِثْلُ آثَامِ مَنِ اتَّبَعَهُ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ، لَا يَنْقُصُ ذلِكَ مِنْ آثَامِهِمْ شَيْئًا»


(He who calls to a guidance, will earn a reward similar to the rewards of those who accept his call, until the Day of Resurrection, without decreasing their rewards. Whoever calls to a heresy, will carry a burden similar to the burdens of those who accept his call, until the Day of Resurrection, without decreasing their own burdens.)


﴿حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَيْتَةُ وَالْدَّمُ وَلَحْمُ الْخِنْزِيرِ وَمَآ أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ اللَّهِ بِهِ وَالْمُنْخَنِقَةُ وَالْمَوْقُوذَةُ وَالْمُتَرَدِّيَةُ وَالنَّطِيحَةُ وَمَآ أَكَلَ السَّبُعُ إِلاَّ مَا ذَكَّيْتُمْ وَمَا ذُبِحَ عَلَى النُّصُبِ وَأَنْ تَسْتَقْسِمُواْ بِالاٌّزْلاَمِ ذَلِكُمْ فِسْقٌ الْيَوْمَ يَئِسَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن دِينِكُمْ فَلاَ تَخْشَوْهُمْ وَاخْشَوْنِ الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِى وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الأِسْلاَمَ دِيناً فَمَنِ اضْطُرَّ فِى مَخْمَصَةٍ غَيْرَ مُتَجَانِفٍ لإِثْمٍ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ ﴾


(3. Forbidden to you (for food) are: Al-Maytah (the dead animals), blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for other than Allah, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns ـand that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal ـunless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) - and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on An-Nusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to make decisions with Al-Azlam (arrows) (all) that is Fisq (disobedience and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above mentioned animals), then surely, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)
 
No sin or wrong on transgressing against disbelievers

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
 
The Order to fight until there is no more Fitnah





Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said:


﴿حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


(...until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam.


Allah's statement:


﴿وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ للَّهِ﴾


(...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:


«مَنْ قَاتَلَ لِتَكُونَ كَلِمَةُ اللهِ هِيَ الْعُلْيا فَهُوَ فِي سَبِيلِ الله»


(He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:


«أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَقُولُوا لَا إِلهَ إلَّا اللهُ، فَإِذَا قَالُوهَا عَصَمُوا مِنِّي دِمَاءَهُم وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ إلَّا بِحَقِّهَا وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَى الله»


(I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.)


Allah's statement:


﴿فَإِنِ انتَهَواْ فَلاَ عُدْوَنَ إِلاَّ عَلَى الظَّـلِمِينَ﴾


(But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against the wrongdoers.) indicates that, `If they stop their Shirk and fighting the believers, then cease warfare against them. Whoever fights them afterwards will be committing an injustice. Verily aggression can only be started against the unjust.' This is the meaning of Mujahid's statement that only combatants should be fought. Or, the meaning of the Ayah indicates that, `If they abandon their injustice, which is Shirk in this case, then do not start aggression against them afterwards.' The aggression here means retaliating and fighting them, just as Allah said:


﴿فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ﴾


(Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him.) (2:194)


Similarly, Allah said:


﴿وَجَزَآءُ سَيِّئَةٍ سَيِّئَةٌ مِّثْلُهَا﴾


(The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof.) (42:40), and:


﴿وَإِنْ عَاقَبْتُمْ فَعَاقِبُواْ بِمِثْلِ مَا عُوقِبْتُمْ بِهِ﴾


(And if you punish them, then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. ) (16:126)


`Ikrimah and Qatadah stated, "The unjust person is he who refuses to proclaim, `There is no God worthy of worship except Allah'.''


Under Allah's statement:


﴿وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah) Al-Bukhari recorded that Nafi` said that two men came to Ibn `Umar during the conflict of Ibn Az-Zubayr and said to him, "The people have fallen into shortcomings and you are the son of `Umar and the Prophet's Companion. Hence, what prevents you from going out'' He said, "What prevents me is that Allah has for bidden shedding the blood of my (Muslim) brother.'' They said, "Did not Allah say:


﴿وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah))'' He said, "We did fight until there was no more Fitnah and the religion became for Allah Alone. You want to fight until there is Fitnah and the religion becomes for other than Allah!''


`Uthman bin Salih added that a man came to Ibn `Umar and asked him, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! What made you perform Hajj one year and `Umrah another year and abandon Jihad in the cause of Allah, although you know how much He has encouraged performing it'' He said, "O my nephew! Islam is built on five (pillars): believing in Allah and His Messenger, the five daily prayers, fasting Ramadan, paying the Zakah and performing Hajj (pilgrimage) to the House.'' They said, "O Abu `Abdur-Rahman! Did you not hear what Allah said in His Book:


﴿وَإِن طَآئِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُواْ فَأَصْلِحُواْ بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الأُخْرَى فَقَـتِلُواْ الَّتِى تَبْغِى حَتَّى تَفِىءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ﴾


(And if two parties (or groups) among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both. But if one of them outrages against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that which outrages till it complies with the command of Allah.) (49:9) and:


﴿وَقَـتِلُوهُمْ حَتَّى لاَ تَكُونَ فِتْنَةٌ﴾


(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief))


He said, "That we did during the time of Allah's Messenger when Islam was still weak and (the Muslim) man used to face trials in his religion, such as killing or torture. When Islam became stronger (and apparent), there was no more Fitnah.'' He asked, "What do you say about `Ali and `Uthman'' He said, "As for `Uthman, Allah has forgiven him. However, you hated the fact that Allah had forgiven him! As for `Ali, he is the cousin of Allah's Messenger and his son-in-law.'' He then pointed with his hand, saying, "This is where his house is located (meaning, `so close to the Prophet's house just as `Ali was so close to the Prophet himself').''


﴿الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَـتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ ﴾


(194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqin.)
 
Standard main stream Islam

Shirk is worse than Killing





Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:


﴿وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ﴾


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:


﴿وَالْفِتْنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ الْقَتْلِ﴾


(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''
 
Some of you playing along at home may notice a degree of "repeation " on my post,Im sorry, Im constrained by the limits of Islamic scripture.
 
Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
 
You acknowledge your own annoying repetitiveness, but do not seem to realize that what you're posting does nothing to disprove my point. It only serves to continuously remind us of how weak your arguments are.
 
You acknowledge your own annoying repetitiveness, but do not seem to realize that what you're posting does nothing to disprove my point. It only serves to continuously remind us of how weak your arguments are.
Thanks, Enjoy your selfproclaimed interweb "victory" Im sorry I missed it.
I dont want to be right I just require some simple unequivocal proof.
Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people", I'm asking for someone to prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent, Thanks for reading my post.
 
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You acknowledge your own annoying repetitiveness, but do not seem to realize that what you're posting does nothing to disprove my point. It only serves to continuously remind us of how weak your arguments are.
Thanks, Enjoy your selfproclaimed interweb "victory" Im sorry I missed it.
I missed where I "proclaimed victory."

I dont want to be right I just require some simple unequivocal proof.
You only want to peddle your bullshit, dude. You'll reject anything I post out of hand.
 
You acknowledge your own annoying repetitiveness, but do not seem to realize that what you're posting does nothing to disprove my point. It only serves to continuously remind us of how weak your arguments are.
Thanks, Enjoy your selfproclaimed interweb "victory" Im sorry I missed it.
I missed where I "proclaimed victory."
Sorry I mistook the self indulgent gloating as such.


I dont want to be right I just require some simple unequivocal proof.
You only want to peddle your bullshit, dude. You'll reject anything I post out of hand.
I accept you and the dozens of followers in your deviant sect feel the way you do .

Billions of muslims disagree.
I merely present the mainstream of Islamic thought .
You reject generations of Islamic scholars who are held in very high esteem noted for there accuracy it helping making the Quran understandable while putting it in context with the sunnah.
These works that you reject are the the structure of Islamic jurisprudance and governance, they are taught in virtually every mosque and muslim university on earth.
I agree it is bullshit, Islamic bullshit, the basis . for Islamic thought.

When push comes to shove from your Islamic brothers you will adopt it as well, if not before then.
As far as what you post, I have detected no unequivocal proof that non muslims are innocent , Just a high degree of tortured logic and distortions of mainstream thought.
You serve your purpose, helping me reveal fundamental Islam.
 
Sorry I mistook the self indulgent gloating as such.
I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I accept you and the dozens of followers in your deviant sect feel the way you do .

Billions of muslims disagree.
I merely present the mainstream of Islamic thought .
When Islam itself is being discussed, the words of the Qur'an take precedence over all else, including what may be considered mainstream thought and misinterpretation.

You reject generations of Islamic scholars who are held in very high esteem noted for there accuracy it helping making the Quran understandable while putting it in context with the sunnah.
Many of those scholars base their interpretations on pure opinion or reports that are unverifiable or simply inaccurate, rendering meaningless their esteemed and revered works.

These works that you reject are the the structure of Islamic jurisprudance and governance, they are taught in virtually every mosque and muslim university on earth.
The modern schools of jurisprudence and governance are far removed indeed from the Qur'anic basis of Islam - they are the product of centuries upon centuries of misguided ijtihad and politics. To equate any one of these schools to Islam itself is misleading. Islam, like all religions, has been in a state of ideological civil strife throughout most of its history.

I agree it is bullshit, Islamic bullshit, the basis . for Islamic thought.
Hanbali, Shafi'i, or Ja'fari (etc) thought and jurisprudence are not Islamic thought and jurisprudence; they are Hanbali, Shafi'i, or Ja'fari.

When push comes to shove from your Islamic brothers you will adopt it as well, if not before then.
I'll never be coerced by others into abandoning or changing my beliefs. :eusa_hand:

As far as what you post, I have detected no unequivocal proof that non muslims are innocent , Just a high degree of tortured logic and distortions of mainstream thought.
Yet you have so far failed to directly address them.
 
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Oh course only you and a select few know the real Islam
.All those others are just misunderstanders.
The problem is , they all seem to agree on how to misunderstand.
 
Yet you have so far failed to directly address them.
Lets review
Your reject nasikh(abrogation desipte its clear message in the Quran.)
Ulum al Qur'an - AL-NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH- SunniPath Library - Books
you reject Tafsir & Sunna as fabrication based on your failure to comprehend nasikh.
You derive your interpretation based on the narrowest mean of the words despite the "prophets" example

Bukhari :: Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad) :: [4.52.220]


33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

That about covers it.
 
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