Islam forbids

[mal]

YouTube - Beautiful women with hijab

She should be Stoned to Death for Insulting Allah by Showing her Whore Face like that!...



peace...

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Then you could have played with her.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly: it's your contention that "virgin" refers exclusively to prepubescent girls? I have female friends as old as I am who are virgins.

The hadith concerns young girls , Mohammad's predisposition for the young has been documented,
This thread is for the purpose of proving non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[mal]

Then you could have played with her.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly: it's your contention that "virgin" refers exclusively to prepubescent girls? I have female friends as old as I am who are virgins.

The hadith concerns young girls , Mohammad's predisposition for the young has been documented,
This thread is for the purpose of proving non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

You don't Expect anything More than Continued Deflections and Evasions, do you, Brother?...



peace...

 

[Kalam]

The hadith concerns young girls ,

No, it concerns "virgins," meaning most girls who had not been married.

Mohammad's predisposition for the young has been documented,

In inaccurate reports, yes.

This thread is for the purpose of proving non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.

Then stick to your own topic.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The hadith concerns young girls ,

No, it concerns "virgins," meaning most girls who had not been married.

Mohammad's predisposition for the young has been documented,

In inaccurate reports, yes.

This thread is for the purpose of proving non muslims are innocent according to Islamic scripture.

Then stick to your own topic.

Bukhari:V4B52N211 “ I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, ‘Apostle, I am a bridegroom.’ He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, ‘A matron.’ He said, ‘Why not a virgin who would have played
with you?
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.’ ‘Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.’

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[Kalam]

Bukhari:V4B52N211 “ I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, ‘Apostle, I am a bridegroom.’ He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, ‘A matron.’ He said, ‘Why not a virgin who would have played
with you?
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.’ ‘Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.’

This is supposed to prove your point?

 

[JenT]

Bukhari:V4B52N211 “ I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, ‘Apostle, I am a bridegroom.’ He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, ‘A matron.’ He said, ‘Why not a virgin who would have played
with you?
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.
Then you could have played with her.’ ‘Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.’

This is supposed to prove your point?

Kalam, obviously it shows not everyone was a pedophile

 

[JenT]

Another evidence of child brides is written in the Quran:

SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

Child brides could not be divorced until three months after they started their first period.

 

[JenT]

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

So Kalam, WHERE does it say non-Muslims can be innocent again? Aren't we already guilty by definition as non-Muslim?

Sure seems like it. Dhimmis are even to be beaten for the privelege of paying taxes, a blow to the head or back of the neck as we hand the money over. Lovely ritual.

 

[Kalam]

Kalam, obviously it shows not everyone was a pedophile

Junt, please tell how old the sisters of Jabir bin 'Abdullah were at the time that the events in that report supposedly took place. Remember, every time you make a dishonest statement, Yassir Arafat twists the head off of a kitten.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Kalam, obviously it shows not everyone was a pedophile

Junt, please tell how old the sisters of Jabir bin 'Abdullah were at the time that the events in that report supposedly took place. Remember, every time you make a dishonest statement, Yassir Arafat twists the head off of a kitten.

That is not proof,
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[Kalam]

"Child marriages" are not permitted in Islam. Marriage is only permissible when both the husband and the wife have attained intellectual maturity, as noted in 4:6 -

And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and consume it not extravagantly and hastily against their growing up. And whoever is rich, let him abstain, and whoever is poor let him consume reasonably. And when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence. And Allah is enough as a Reckoner.​

Another evidence of child brides is written in the Quran:

SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

Child brides could not be divorced until three months after they started their first period.

For one thing, this passage deals exclusively with divorce. For Muslims, this applies only to the exceptional circumstance in which a woman has reached the age of majority but has not yet had her courses. Menarche can occur as late as 17-18 years of age. People will generally expect you to properly cite your sources (the uncited verse in this case is 65:4.) I guess I should have learned not to expect proper citation from you by now.

Also, please remind us of how old Mary was when you believe God knocked her up.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Although classical jurists permitted a legal guardian (only the father or grandfather in most schools) to conclude the marriage contract of a minor girl or boy without their consent (wilāyat al-ijbār), contemporary jurists have strongly discouraged the act.

Today, most countries have adopted legislation that explicitly forbids child marriages and forbids a guardian from compelling a woman into marriage. In Algeria, Iraq, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Malaysia, Morocco, Somalia, Syria, Tunisia, and Yemen, forced marriages arranged by the guardian, even if it is the father, are illegal (Esposito, p. 100). Pakistan introduced penal restrictions to regulate underage marriages

(Pakistan). Nevertheless, even in classical Islamic law, both parties have the option of dissolving the marriage after puberty; the marriage cannot be consummated before puberty. Moreover, in classical law, the marriage of children was permitted only if it was proven to be in the interest of the child and concluded by a father who is not corrupt or unreliable (sayyi῾ al-tasarruf).

Log In - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Apparently the jihad will have to continue until sharia is practiced in those "Islamic countries"

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
Shirk is worse than Killing



Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr,`Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:
(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

2:191.
And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192.
But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
2:194.
The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisâs). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allâh, and know that Allâh is with Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).
2:195.
And spend in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd of all kinds, etc.) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh), and do good. Truly, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn[](the good-doers).

The question is, who is "innocent" in their eyes?

 

[JenT]

Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide scripture to proves unequivocally non muslims are innocent
Shirk is worse than Killing



Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing. Abu Malik commented about what Allah said:

(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) Meaning what you (disbelievers) are committing is much worse than killing.'' Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr,`Ikrimah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that what Allah said:
(And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing.) "Shirk (polytheism) is worse than killing.''

2:191.
And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192.
But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
no transgression except against
2:194.
The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisâs). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allâh, and know that Allâh is with Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).
2:195.
And spend in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd of all kinds, etc.) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh), and do good. Truly, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn[](the good-doers).

The question is, who is "innocent" in their eyes?

I'm not sure but if a Dhimmi, a non-Muslim who lives on Muslim land, subjects himself to all kinds of impunity and humiliation, pays the tax, etc., simply for refusing to pray to Allah...and for all that he still cannot testify against a Muslim...I'd say chances are not good he's considered "innocent".

 

[JenT]

"Child marriages" are not permitted in Islam. Marriage is only permissible when both the husband and the wife have attained intellectual maturity, as noted in 4:6 -

And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and consume it not extravagantly and hastily against their growing up. And whoever is rich, let him abstain, and whoever is poor let him consume reasonably. And when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence. And Allah is enough as a Reckoner.​

Another evidence of child brides is written in the Quran:

SHAKIR: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

Child brides could not be divorced until three months after they started their first period.

For one thing, this passage deals exclusively with divorce. For Muslims, this applies only to the exceptional circumstance in which a woman has reached the age of majority but has not yet had her courses. Menarche can occur as late as 17-18 years of age. People will generally expect you to properly cite your sources (the uncited verse in this case is 65:4.) I guess I should have learned not to expect proper citation from you by now.

Also, please remind us of how old Mary was when you believe God knocked her up.

You're right, the passage deals with divorce. What's going on if you can't get divorced before 3 months after your first period? Sounds like if someone wants to divorce you but has to wait til your first period, you are mighty young to be married, most girls start from 9 to 11.

"Child marriages" are not permitted in Islam. Marriage is only permissible when both the husband and the wife have attained intellectual maturity, as noted in 4:6 -

And test the orphans until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and consume it not extravagantly and hastily against their growing up. And whoever is rich, let him abstain, and whoever is poor let him consume reasonably. And when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence. And Allah is enough as a Reckoner.​

How does 4:6 show what age they consider intellectually mature? What's that standard? A pedophile could claim the child by merely talking has reached a level of intellectual maturity.

Meanwhile Aisha is quoted:

Narrated Aisha: My marriage (wedding) contract with the Prophet was written when I was a girl of six (years)....There in the house I saw some Ansari [recent Muslim converts] women who said,"Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age." Sahih Bukhari, vol. 5, bk 63, no 3894

Mohammad is said to be over fifty at this time.

 

[Kalam]

You're right, the passage deals with divorce. What's going on if you can't get divorced before 3 months after your first period?

The injunction applies only to men who want to divorce their wives.

Sounds like if someone wants to divorce you but has to wait til your first period, you are mighty young to be married, most girls start from 9 to 11.

I addressed this in my last post. Do try to keep up.

How does 4:6 show what age they consider intellectually mature?

It's identified here with the age of majority.

A pedophile could claim the child by merely talking has reached a level of intellectual maturity.

Which is why the judgment is not theirs to make...

Meanwhile Aisha is quoted:

Narrated Aisha: My marriage (wedding) contract with the Prophet was written when I was a girl of six (years)....There in the house I saw some Ansari [recent Muslim converts] women who said,"Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age." Sahih Bukhari, vol. 5, bk 63, no 3894

Yawn.

Her age was lowered in that report so that no questions would be raised about her virginity, and by extension, the legitimacy of Muhammad's offspring through her.

Source: "All of these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity. They also suggest the variability of Aisha's age in the historical record." - D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past.​

In reality, she had been betrothed to Jubair Ibn al Mut'am, a pagan, before her engagement to Muhammad. Jubair eventually annulled their engagement. In at least two separate sources it is pointed out that Asma bint Abi Bakr, Aisha's half-sister, was 100 years old when she died in 73 AH. That would make Aisha 90 in 73 AH.

Source: "Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha." - Ibn Kathir, Al-bidayya wal-nihaya

"She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years." - Mishkat al-Masabih​

Aisha's marriage to Muhammad took place in the year of the Hijra, 1 AH or 622 AD. You do the math...

Mohammad is said to be over fifty at this time.

Remind us again of Mary's age when she was betrothed to Joseph (90 years old) according to your scripture. You ignored my question.

 

[John Lemmon]

kalam, so aisha was nine and was already on her second marriage? And she wasn't even a virgin?