Islam forbids

[Liability]

A little further support for Mr. Fitnah and some further evidence that Malarky is a lover of lies.

* * * *

The Myth:

Islam is completely incompatible with acts of terrorism. It is against Islam to kill innocent people.

The Truth:

Even though many Muslims earnestly believe that their religion prohibits the killing of innocent people by acts of terrorism, the truth is certainly more complicated. This is why the Jihadis and their detractors are both able to point fingers at the other, while confidently insisting that they are the true Muslims. It is also why organizations that commit horrible atrocities in the name of Allah, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, receive moral and financial support from mainstream Muslims and Islamic charities.

In fact, the definition of an “innocent person” is far more ambiguous in Islam than Muslim apologists want others to know. So, also, is the definition of terrorism.

First, consider that anyone who rejects Muhammad is not considered to be innocent under Islamic law. The most protected and respected of all non-Muslims are the dhimma, the “people of the book.” These would specifically be Jews and Christians who agree to Islamic rule and pay the jizya (tribute to Muslims). Yet, the word “dhimmi” comes from the Arabic root meaning “guilt” or "blame." ["...the dhimmi parent and sister words mean both 'to blame' as well as safeguards that can be extended to protect the blameworthy" Amitav Ghosh, In an Antique Land]

So, if even the dhimma have a measure of guilt attached to their status (by virtue of having rejected Allah’s full truth), then how can non-Muslims who oppose Islamic rule or refuse to pay the jizya be considered “innocent?”

Within the Islamic community itself there is a category of Muslims who are also said to bear guilt – greater even than the average non-believer. These are the hypocrites, or “Munafiqin,” whom Muhammad referred to in the most derogatory terms. A hypocrite is considered to be a Muslim in name only. They are distinguished either by an unwillingness to wage holy war or by an intention to corrupt the community of believers.

When Muslims kill Muslims in the name of Allah (which occurs quite frequently), they usually do so believing that their victims are Munafiqin or kafir (unbelievers). This is actually a part of Islamic Law known as takfir, in which Muslims are declared apostates and then executed. (A true Muslim would go to paradise anyway, in which case he or she could hardly be expected to nurse a grudge amidst the orgy of sex and wine).

In addition to the murky definition of innocence, there is also the problem of distinguishing terrorism from holy war. Islamic terrorists never refer to themselves as terrorists, but always as holy warriors (Mujahideen, Shahid, or Fedayeen). They consider their acts to be a form of Jihad.

Holy war is something that Muhammad commanded in the Qur’an and Hadith. In Sura 9:29, he establishes the principle that unbelievers should be fought until they either convert to Islam or accept a state of humiliation under Islamic subjugation. This is confirmed in the Hadith by both Sahih Muslim and Bukhari.

In many places, the prophet of Islam says that Jihad is the ideal path for a Muslim, and that believers should “fight in the way of Allah.” There are dozens of open-ended passages in the Qur’an that exhort killing and fighting – far more than ones of peace and tolerance. It is somewhat naïve to think that their inclusion in this "eternal discourse between God and Man" was of historical value only and not intended to be relevant to present-day believers, particularly when there is little to nothing within the text that distinguishes them in such fashion.

Combine the Qur’anic exhortation to holy war with the ambiguity of innocence, and a monumental problem develops that cannot be patched by mere semantics. Not only is there a deep tolerance for violence in Islam, but also a sharp disagreement and lack of clarity over the conditions that justify this violence... and just whom the targets may be.

Even many Muslims who claim to be against terrorism still support the “insurgency” in Iraq, for example, and often entertain the allegation that there is a broader “war against Islam.” Although American troops in Iraq are trying to protect innocent life and help the country rebuild, Muslims around the world and in the West believe that it is legitimate for Sunnis and Shias to try and kill them.

Enjoying the sanction of holy war, the Mujahid reasons that it is permissible to attack fellow Iraqis – the ones helping the Americans… even if they are part of a democratically-elected Iraqi government. These non-combatants and combatants alike are believed to be the “Munafiqin” or "Takfir" assisting the enemy “Crusaders.”

Although we use Iraq as an example here, this is the same rationale that is ultimately behind all Islamic terror, from the Philippines to Thailand. Wherever the religion of Islam is a minority, there are always radicals who believe that violence is justified in bringing it to dominance - just as Muhammad taught by example in places like Mecca and the land of al-Harith.

And what of the so-called “innocents” who suffer from the bombings and shootings? Even in Muhammad’s time they were unavoidable. The much-touted hadith in which Muhammad forbade the killing of women also indicates that there were such casualties in his conflicts.

If there is any doubt that he believed that the forbidden is sometimes necessary, it should be put to rest by an incident in which Muhammad's men warned him that a planned night raid against an enemy camp would mean that women and children would be killed. He merely replied “they are of them,” meaning the men.

This is the slippery slope that is opened by the sanction of holy war. What starts out as the perception of a noble cause of self-defense against a supposed threat gradually devolves into a "let Allah sort them out" campaign through a series of logical steps that are ultimately justified by the sublime goal of Islamic rule.

Islam is not intended to co-exist as an equal with other religions. It is to be the dominant religion, with Sharia as the supreme law. Islamic rule is to be extended to the ends of the earth, and resistance is to be dealt with by any means necessary.

Apologists in the West often shrug off the Qur'an's many verses of violence by saying that they are only relevant in a “time of war.”

To this, Islamic terrorists would agree. They are at war.

* * * *

Excerpted from: TheReligionofPeace - Myths of Islam

I particularly liked that excerpt because it addresses the question that Mr. F. has asked repeatedly, but confronts the endless litany of lies from Islamic lying apolgists like Malarky.

The rest of that web piece is also informative.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Fitnuts - Post 609 is waiting eagerly for you to address it.

Get a better Quran.
The Noble Quran

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Anything else, Disability?

Anything else about what Malarky?

Anything else to say? Any response to my refutation of your attempt to criticize the Qur'an? Any evidence of me "lying"?

Here are a few .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1472934-post617.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1457051-post142.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1398369-post444.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397570-post438.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397169-post435.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1391044-post23.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1386873-post676.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362813-post273.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1341789-post76.html

Although your lies are part of the thread they do not constitute proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[Kalam]

A little further support for Mr. Fitnah and some further evidence that Malarky is a lover of lies.

Congratulations. Your cut-n'-paste skills are almost as impressive as those of Mr. Fitnuts.

"thereligionofpeace.com": an accurate and unbiased examination of the Islamic religion, I'm sure. Tell you what - I'll respond to this one for you. Pull up a chair... I won't entertain every mess of cut-n'-pasted arguments like this.

Even though many Muslims earnestly believe that their religion prohibits the killing of innocent people by acts of terrorism, the truth is certainly more complicated.

Not really. Muslims are commanded to "leave" disbelievers alone (15:2-3) as long as they remain peaceful. Even if a Muslims feels hatred toward disbelievers, he's specifically instructed not to let this hatred "incite [him] not to act equitably" (5:2, 5:8.) In fact, as long as a group of disbelievers does not seek to fight Muslims for religious reasons or rob them of their property, the Qur'an demands that Muslims "show them kindness and deal with them justly" (60:8.) It is therefore established that Muslims are not permitted to commit acts of hostility towards those who don't seek to harm them similarly.

This is why the Jihadis and their detractors are both able to point fingers at the other, while confidently insisting that they are the true Muslims.

Interpretations that permit aggressive warfare have no Qur'anic basis. The Qur'an expressly forbids warfare against those who don't take up arms against Muslims. For adherents of Islam, warfare becomes permissible when "war is made" upon them (22:39.) Warfare is consistently referred to as a matter of defense against aggressors (9:12-13, 42:36-43.) Moreover, Muslims must "incline toward peace" if the aggressors do the same (2:190-194, 4:89-91, 8:61.)

It is also why organizations that commit horrible atrocities in the name of Allah, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, receive moral and financial support from mainstream Muslims and Islamic charities.

Incorrect. Organizations that target innocents would receive no support whatsoever from Muslims if they were mindful of the words of the Qur'an.

In fact, the definition of an “innocent person” is far more ambiguous in Islam than Muslim apologists want others to know. So, also, is the definition of terrorism.

An innocent person is one that cannot be permissibly attacked. The Qur'an makes it clear that these people are all of those who have not initiated hostilities with or acted aggressively towards Muslims. No Qur'anic definition for "terrorism" exists because it's a neologism. Not even the West seems to be able to put forth a clear definition of terrorism that doesn't include themselves or their allies.

First, consider that anyone who rejects Muhammad is not considered to be innocent under Islamic law.

Baseless, of course. Where is this said in the Qur'an?

The most protected and respected of all non-Muslims are the dhimma, the “people of the book.” These would specifically be Jews and Christians who agree to Islamic rule and pay the jizya (tribute to Muslims). Yet, the word “dhimmi” comes from the Arabic root meaning “guilt” or "blame." ["...the dhimmi parent and sister words mean both 'to blame' as well as safeguards that can be extended to protect the blameworthy" Amitav Ghosh, In an Antique Land

Not really. The "most protected and respected" of all non-Muslims in an Islamic society are those who observe the laws of the society as Muslims do while remaining religiously distinct. They are, in fact, part of the ummah, as many of the Jews of Yathrib were when the Messenger ﷺ arrived there and established peace between the warring tribes. See the Madinah Compact: "Constitution" of Medina (Dustur al-Madinah)

So, if even the dhimma have a measure of guilt attached to their status (by virtue of having rejected Allah’s full truth), then how can non-Muslims who oppose Islamic rule or refuse to pay the jizya be considered “innocent?”

This is not a particularly good argument, nor one that properly represents the Arabic used in the Qur'an. "Dhimma" comes from the dhaal-miim-miim trilateral root, which can have connotations of "guilt," but only suggests "agreement," "protection," and "obligation" where it's used in the Qur'an. Let's look at how the root is used:

I cannot highlight the word in the Arabic verse; the language is written right-to-left so putting tags around the word completely jumbles up the passage. It shouldn't be difficult to find, anyway. the word is ذِمَّةًۭ

كَيْفَ وَإِن يَظْهَرُوا۟ عَلَيْكُمْ لَا يَرْقُبُوا۟ فِيكُمْ إِلًّۭا وَلَا ذِمَّةًۭ ۚ يُرْضُونَكُم بِأَفْوَٰهِهِمْ وَتَأْبَىٰ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَأَكْثَرُهُمْ فَٰسِقُونَ

Kayfa wain yathharoo AAalaykum la yarquboo feekum illan wala thimmatan yurdoonakum biafwahihim wataba quloobuhum waaktharuhum fasiqoona

How, seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked. - 9:8​

We'll examine it in another passage as well:

لَا يَرْقُبُونَ فِى مُؤْمِنٍ إِلًّۭا وَلَا ذِمَّةًۭ ۚ وَأُو۟لَٰٓئِكَ هُمُ ٱلْمُعْتَدُونَ

Ishtaraw biayati Allahi thamanan qaleelan fasaddoo AAan sabeelihi innahum saa ma kanoo yaAAmaloona

In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.​

Feel free to look it up in a dictionary yourself - ذِمَّةًۭ

Thus, in the Qur'an, the word has connotations of protection, not guilt.

Within the Islamic community itself there is a category of Muslims who are also said to bear guilt – greater even than the average non-believer. These are the hypocrites, or “Munafiqin,” whom Muhammad referred to in the most derogatory terms. A hypocrite is considered to be a Muslim in name only. They are distinguished either by an unwillingness to wage holy war or by an intention to corrupt the community of believers.

A hypocrite can only be distinguished by his actions - he professes to believe in Islam but secretly seeks to harm his Muslim brothers and sisters and refuses to help them in divinely-sanctioned conflicts, which, as we've established, are to be fought in self-defense.

When Muslims kill Muslims in the name of Allah (which occurs quite frequently), they usually do so believing that their victims are Munafiqin or kafir (unbelievers).

Actually, fighting between Muslims is almost always over political grievances. Religious motivation seems to be used as a false pretense by hypocritical leaders in an effort to rally support for their political causes.

This is actually a part of Islamic Law known as takfir, in which Muslims are declared apostates and then executed. (A true Muslim would go to paradise anyway, in which case he or she could hardly be expected to nurse a grudge amidst the orgy of sex and wine).

This description is entirely incorrect. A Muslim is only an apostate if he himself declares his apostasy. Moreover, there is absolutely no mention of apostasy being a capital offense in the Qur'an (feel free to prove me wrong,) so killing somebody simply for leaving Islam is itself an un-Islamic action.

In addition to the murky definition of innocence, there is also the problem of distinguishing terrorism from holy war. Islamic terrorists never refer to themselves as terrorists, but always as holy warriors (Mujahideen, Shahid, or Fedayeen). They consider their acts to be a form of Jihad.

Wrong. "Terrorists" are only praised as mujahideen by other terrorists. The word for "terrorist" is إرهابي (irhaabi). Their actions are a form of irhaab, not jihad.

Holy war is something that Muhammad commanded in the Qur’an and Hadith. In Sura 9:29, he establishes the principle that unbelievers should be fought until they either convert to Islam or accept a state of humiliation under Islamic subjugation. This is confirmed in the Hadith by both Sahih Muslim and Bukhari.

For one thing, fighting these individuals is only permissible in defensive circumstances. Once they're overcome by the Muslims (that's if they chose to keep fighting instead of inclining toward peace), they have a choice to accept Islamic law and live as one with the ummah while remaining religiously distinct - see the Madinah Compact. If they choose instead to remain autonomous ("forbid not that which Allah and His messenger have forbidden" - 9:29,) they are given dhimmi status, which means that they pay a tax in exchange for autonomy and draft exemption.

In many places, the prophet of Islam says that Jihad is the ideal path for a Muslim, and that believers should “fight in the way of Allah.”

This is true. It's the duty of every Muslim of sound body and mind to fight in defense of his religion and in opposition to oppression.

There are dozens of open-ended passages in the Qur’an that exhort killing and fighting – far more than ones of peace and tolerance.

Incorrect. All of the commandments to fight are either made with reference to a specific enemy (usually the Quraysh) or within the context of Islam's requirement that war must be fought in self-defense.

It is somewhat naïve to think that their inclusion in this "eternal discourse between God and Man" was of historical value only and not intended to be relevant to present-day believers, particularly when there is little to nothing within the text that distinguishes them in such fashion.

Of course. The injunction to protect the community of believers and their religion applies always.

Combine the Qur’anic exhortation to holy war with the ambiguity of innocence, and a monumental problem develops that cannot be patched by mere semantics.

What we're dealing with does not fall under the category of "semantics" - we're dealing with the unambiguous words of the Qur'an. Those Muslims who choose to reject its clear commandments are in error, those who follow its commandments are not. It's really quite simple.

Not only is there a deep tolerance for violence in Islam, but also a sharp disagreement and lack of clarity over the conditions that justify this violence... and just whom the targets may be.

The Qur'an, as we've seen, makes the conditions clear. The people being attacked must have attacked you first, oppressed you, or gone back on their agreement with you.

Even many Muslims who claim to be against terrorism still support the “insurgency” in Iraq, for example, and often entertain the allegation that there is a broader “war against Islam.” Although American troops in Iraq are trying to protect innocent life and help the country rebuild, Muslims around the world and in the West believe that it is legitimate for Sunnis and Shias to try and kill them.

And? There is no basis for this belief. Until America starts oppressing Islam or attacking the religion itself, attacking it is completely not allowed. America won't do this, so I doubt there's anything to worry about.

Enjoying the sanction of holy war, the Mujahid reasons that it is permissible to attack fellow Iraqis – the ones helping the Americans… even if they are part of a democratically-elected Iraqi government. These non-combatants and combatants alike are believed to be the “Munafiqin” or "Takfir" assisting the enemy “Crusaders.”

Again, this belief has no basis in Islam.

Although we use Iraq as an example here, this is the same rationale that is ultimately behind all Islamic terror, from the Philippines to Thailand. Wherever the religion of Islam is a minority, there are always radicals who believe that violence is justified in bringing it to dominance - just as Muhammad taught by example in places like Mecca and the land of al-Harith.

Muhammad fought wars exclusively to defend the Islamic community and its allies.

And what of the so-called “innocents” who suffer from the bombings and shootings? Even in Muhammad’s time they were unavoidable. The much-touted hadith in which Muhammad forbade the killing of women also indicates that there were such casualties in his conflicts.

But not that those casualties were created by Muslims. Killing innocents is absolutely forbidden.

If there is any doubt that he believed that the forbidden is sometimes necessary, it should be put to rest by an incident in which Muhammad's men warned him that a planned night raid against an enemy camp would mean that women and children would be killed. He merely replied “they are of them,” meaning the men.

Source?

This is the slippery slope that is opened by the sanction of holy war. What starts out as the perception of a noble cause of self-defense against a supposed threat gradually devolves into a "let Allah sort them out" campaign through a series of logical steps that are ultimately justified by the sublime goal of Islamic rule.

This article is becoming repetitive. It is made clear in the Qur'an that wars may only be fought against those who seek to destroy, attack, oppress, or double-cross the Islamic community. It may not be expanded to other people.

Islam is not intended to co-exist as an equal with other religions. It is to be the dominant religion, with Sharia as the supreme law. Islamic rule is to be extended to the ends of the earth, and resistance is to be dealt with by any means necessary.

Spreading Islam coercively is forbidden. Islam is to be spread through proselytization, not through conquest.

Apologists in the West often shrug off the Qur'an's many verses of violence by saying that they are only relevant in a “time of war.”

To this, Islamic terrorists would agree. They are at war.

War without Qur'anic justification. They're guilty of manifest transgressions.

 

[Kalam]

Fitnuts - Post 609 is waiting eagerly for you to address it.

Get a better Quran.
The Noble Quran

Sorry, I prefer using an accurate translation rather than one that sinfully reflects the author's own viewpoints. If you don't like the Maulana M. Ali's translation, consider today your lucky day. I'll give you the same passages using Ahmed Ali's translation, which is the translation published by Princeton University and Oxford University.

 

[Kalam]

Anything else about what Malarky?

Anything else to say? Any response to my refutation of your attempt to criticize the Qur'an? Any evidence of me "lying"?

Here are a few .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1472934-post617.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1457051-post142.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1398369-post444.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397570-post438.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397169-post435.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1391044-post23.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1386873-post676.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362813-post273.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1341789-post76.html

Although your lies are part of the thread they do not constitute proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

Clearly, posting arguments with Qur'anic corroboration is "lying."

You truly are impervious to reason, Fitnuts.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Fitnuts - Post 609 is waiting eagerly for you to address it.

Get a better Quran.
The Noble Quran

Sorry, I prefer using an accurate translation rather than one that sinfully reflects the author's own viewpoints. If you don't like the Maulana M. Ali's translation, consider today your lucky day. I'll give you the same passages using Ahmed Ali's translation, which is the translation published by Princeton University and Oxford University.

Dont bother, I use the one that does not impart the translators bias by trying to translate words from Arabic into English were no corresponding words exists.

 

[Liability]

* * * *

Congratulations. Your cut-n'-paste skills are almost as impressive as those of Mr. Fitnuts.

"thereligionofpeace.com": an accurate and unbiased examination of the Islamic religion, I'm sure. Tell you what - I'll respond to this one for you. Pull up a chair... I won't entertain every mess of cut-n'-pasted arguments like this.

* * * *

Oh thank God! Believe it or not, Malarky, you are not endlessly fascinating. In fact, you are quite uninteresting.

You LOVE to bandy about expressions like "the [Qur'an] makes clear," but that's just one of your endless litany of lies.

There is nothing "clear" about ANY of that hodgepodge collection of self-contradictory babble that qualifies as "clear."

I did indeed exercise a little bit of copy and paste (note: it's not actually "cut" and paste). The ENTIRE site goes into greater detail -- as I noted earlier -- in exposing the numerous fraudulent things you say.

It is idiots like you who make atheism so attractive to so many people. Your violent cartoon religion is far too in love with violence and the notions of "submission," etc., for any rational person to ever take seriously.

Take one nasty barbarian madman, toss in a hefty dosage of hatred, a ton of violence, degradation, 6th Century thinking, submission, pedophilia, misogyny, militarism and far too many unthinking "followers" and you end up with "Islam." Islam is NOT the relgion of "peace," but a religion PREMISED on SUBMISSION.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

War without Qur'anic justification. They're guilty of manifest transgressions.

2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn

The Quran reflects Mohammad

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/display.asp?Lang=eng&ID=11

Only muslims pay zakah

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Anything else about what Malarky?

Anything else to say? Any response to my refutation of your attempt to criticize the Qur'an? Any evidence of me "lying"?

Here are a few .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1472934-post617.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1457051-post142.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1398369-post444.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397570-post438.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397169-post435.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1391044-post23.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1386873-post676.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362813-post273.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1341789-post76.html

Although your lies are part of the thread they do not constitute proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

We can add this one as well

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1474541-post644.html

 

[Kalam]

Get a better Quran.
The Noble Quran

Sorry, I prefer using an accurate translation rather than one that sinfully reflects the author's own viewpoints. If you don't like the Maulana M. Ali's translation, consider today your lucky day. I'll give you the same passages using Ahmed Ali's translation, which is the translation published by Princeton University and Oxford University.

Dont bother, I use the one that does not impart the translators bias by trying to translate words from Arabic into English were no corresponding words exists.

"The Noble Qur'an" is injected with the author's own interpretations and opinions. If you're unwilling to recognize the accuracy of Ahmed Ali's translation, there's no reason for you to involve yourself in any debate concerning the book.

 

[Kalam]

Oh thank God! Believe it or not, Malarky, you are not endlessly fascinating. In fact, you are quite uninteresting.

Of course you aren't interested in what the Qur'an actually says; you're much more concerned with what Islamophobic websites have to say about it.

You LOVE to bandy about expressions like "the [Qur'an] makes clear," but that's just one of your endless litany of lies.

Using direct quotes from the Qur'an in my arguments is certainly a clear example of "lying." Go ahead and check my Qur'anic citations, the information I provided about Arabic roots, or anything else in my post and show me how it's inaccurate.

There is nothing "clear" about ANY of that hodgepodge collection of self-contradictory babble that qualifies as "clear."

I guess that's true for people who function below a third-grade reading level. Since I don't believe that anybody here falls into that category, I'm confident that the Qur'an is clear enough to be understood by all of us.

I did indeed exercise a little bit of copy and paste (note: it's not actually "cut" and paste). The ENTIRE site goes into greater detail -- as I noted earlier -- in exposing the numerous fraudulent things you say.

The entire site is based on the flawed premise that the most violent interpretation of Islam is automatically the most correct. While it's better than fundie Christian nonsense like "Answering Islam," it uses the same half-brained blanket statements and misrepresentations to make its arguments. Did you think this was the first time I've seen that site or something? If I was interested in cut-n'-pasted arguments from thereligionofpeace.com, I'd be talking to them. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject, not theirs.

It is idiots like you who make atheism so attractive to so many people. Your violent cartoon religion is far too in love with violence and the notions of "submission," etc., for any rational person to ever take seriously.

Why is it, then, that the majority of atheists I've encountered don't seem to have a problem with me or my religion? They're generally the ones who are able to recognize the differences between Qur'anic Islam and political causes that sinfully seek religious justifications for their crimes. With few exceptions, every self-proclaimed "expert" on the Islamic religion who has attempted to challenge my beliefs has been a Christian who is ironically unaware of the horror and violence their own religion demands. I'll hand it to them, some of them are legitimately intelligent and have actually challenged the way I think about my religion, using well-reasoned and thoughtful arguments. Unfortunately, none of those individuals seem to be present in this thread.

If you were willing to respond to my arguments thoughtfully rather than making lame accusations of "lying" your recourse, we'd be able to get somewhere. I'm willing to have a civil and intelligent discussion if you are.

 

[Kalam]

2:193

I thought you believed in the false doctrine of abrogation.

What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. - 9:13 (Shakir)

...and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid-- incite you to exceed the limits, and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil). - 5:2 (Shakir)

O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do. - 5:8 (Shakir)​

Whether you believe in reading the Qur'an properly or in the false doctrine of abrogation, it's clear that aggressive warfare is forbidden.

The Quran reflects Mohammad

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.

The example of Muhammad to be followed is contained within the Qur'an. The book itself is complete.

And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered. - 6:38

Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers. - 6:114

And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed; And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of ignorance that they desire? And who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? - 5:48-50 (all Shakir)
​

Only muslims pay zakah

Sorry; for Muslims mindful of what the Qur'an demands, scripture always takes precedence over tradition. Tradition that contradicts scripture is to be rejected.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Anything else to say? Any response to my refutation of your attempt to criticize the Qur'an? Any evidence of me "lying"?

Here are a few .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1472934-post617.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1457051-post142.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1398369-post444.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397570-post438.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397169-post435.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1391044-post23.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1386873-post676.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362813-post273.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1341789-post76.html

Although your lies are part of the thread they do not constitute proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

We can add this one as well

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1474541-post644.html

Another one.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1476060-post653.html

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. - 9:13 (Shakir)

I dont have to tell you how weak and pathetic your attempt at rebuttal is. You know it , and you know I know it. It is so meaningless I was just going to let it blow away on it own lack of substance , then I recalled a quote , one that guides me .
When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do."
-William Blake
9:13 is specific to time and place

...and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid-- incite you to exceed the limits, and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil). - 5:2 (Shakir)

specific to time and place

O you who believe! Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice, and let not hatred of a people incite you not to act equitably; act equitably, that is nearer to piety, and he careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is Aware of what you do. - 5:8 (Shakir)[/INDENT]

Applying justice in Islam often requires killing .

The Quran reflects Mohammad

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.

2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn
let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn

The Quran reflects Mohammad

33:21. Indeed in the Messenger of Allâh (Muhammad ) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allâh and the Last Day and remembers Allâh much.


'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=11

The example of Muhammad to be followed is contained within the Qur'an. The book itself is complete.

patently false, so much so as I suspect it is a deliberate lie and not a lie of ignorance

'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=11

Only muslims pay zakah

Sorry; for Muslims mindful of what the Qur'an demands, scripture always takes precedence over tradition. Tradition that contradicts scripture is to be rejected.

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
The Noble Quran : Surat 8

It is in perfect harmony

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.[]
The Noble Quran : Surat 9

 

[John Lemmon]

kalam, you ever wipe your ass with your bare hand? How did it feel?

 

[Kalam]

I dont have to tell you how weak and pathetic your attempt at rebuttal is. You know it , and you know I know it. It is so meaningless I was just going to let it blow away on it own lack of substance , then I recalled a quote , one that guides me .
When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do."
-William Blake

I'll go ahead and ignore this and the other non-substantive and meaningless parts of your post.

9:13 is specific to time and place

Yet 9:5 and 9:29 aren't? How did you arrive at this conclusion? No passage would be included in the Qur'an if it wasn't intended to serve as a reminder or a guideline for the conduct of Muslims throughout all of eternity. By extension of your logic, the urges to fight can be waved away as products of a "specific time and place" as well, particularly those in the 8th sura, which pertain to the Battle of Badr.

specific to time and place

Is this what you resort to when you're unable to accept the ramifications of your belief in abrogation? The 5th surah, one of the last to be revealed, specifically forbids what you believe the Islamic religion demands.

Applying justice in Islam often requires killing .

Non-answer. Killing is prescribed for those who kill and for those guilty of crimes that threaten the wellbeing of the entire Islamic community. Mere disbelief does not fall under this category.

patently false, so much so as I suspect it is a deliberate lie and not a lie of ignorance

What? It's a matter of choosing to abide by the Qur'an rather than by oral traditions. How is it "false"? Did you not read the passages I posted? Most hadith collections aren't worth the paper they're written on - the Qur'an is the only final authority on all matters that relate to the Islamic religion.

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do

I thought parts of the Qur'an only applied to "specific times and places." Surely, you're aware that the 8th surah pertains to the Battle of Badr? Or do you accept that all ayat contain advice or lessons that Muslims should be mindful of regardless of when they live?

It is in perfect harmony

The Qur'an with ahadith? No, I'm afraid it most certainly is not.

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

I thought the 9th surah was specific to a "certain time and place." Or was a "specific" verse randomly thrown into a chapter of non-specific verses? Please do explain your belief concerning this. Portions of your post that you merely cut and pasted from your previous post were, of course, omitted from this response.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

It is in perfect harmony

The Qur'an with ahadith? No, I'm afraid it most certainly is not.

Yeah, who should be believed you or our lying eyes?
8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
The Noble Quran : Surat 8
'Abdullah bin 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, reported:
Allah's Messenger said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, perform the Prayer, and pay Zakah. If they do that, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=12

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commanded to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah, and he who professes it is guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for a right warrant, and his affairs rest with Allah.
http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/dis...Lang=eng&ID=11

2:193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

9:13 is specific to time and place

Specifically refers to Mohammad

and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid--5:2

specific time and place and people

Yet 9:5 and 9:29 aren't? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

open ended no mention of time and place present tense

8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
The Noble Quran : Surat 8

open ended for all time until only Islam exists

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[Kalam]

Yeah, who should be believed you or our lying eyes?

Read both yourself. We'll use "magic" as one example of the incongruity:

Qur'an:

And the evildoers say: You follow but a man bewitched! - 25:8​

Ahadith:

Magic was worked on the Prophet so that he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing. - B. 4:54:490
​

Specifically refers to Mohammad

And you'd have Muslims believe that we aren't to use this as an example of how to conduct ourselves? That's positively absurd. That is the authentic sunnah of the Messenger ﷺ that we're required to follow.

and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid--5:2

specific time and place and people

Again, we're supposed to take nothing away from this? As if mentioning it once wasn't enough, the same commandment is repeated again in 5:8 with no reference to a "specific time and place."

open ended no mention of time and place present tense

open ended for all time until only Islam exists

A bit like 5:8, then.

Your illogic is coming back to bite you.