Let's Deal with Documented History For A Change

[MJB12741]

Fair enough everyone?

History Israel

 

[aris2chat]

For ancient history any of Dr. William Dever's books

 

[teddyearp]

I found and saved this link some time ago. And as such many of the links within it are broken. But it seems to have a pretty fair and balanced summary as well:

Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)

 

[MJB12741]

Why is it whenever we have documentaion of facts the Palestinian supporters just seem to disappear?

 

[Roudy]

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People

"Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store."

The people of Israel (also called the "Jewish People") trace their origin to Abraham, who established the belief that there is only one God, the creator of the universe (see Torah). Abraham, his son Yitshak (Isaac), and grandson Jacob (Israel), are referred to as the patriarchs of the Israelites. All three patriarchs lived in the Land of Canaan, that later came to be known as the Land of Israel. They and their wives are buried in the Ma'arat HaMachpela, the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in Hebron (Genesis Chapter 23).

The name Israel derives from the name given to Jacob (Genesis 32:29). His 12 sons were the kernels of 12 tribes that later developed into the Jewish nation. The name Jew derives from Yehuda (Judah) one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Reuben, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Yisachar, Zevulun, Yosef, Binyamin)(Exodus 1:1). So, the names Israel, Israeli or Jewish refer to people of the same origin.

The descendants of Abraham crystallized into a nation at about 1300 BCE after their Exodus from Egypt under the leadership of Moses (Moshe in Hebrew). Soon after the Exodus, Moses transmitted to the people of this new emerging nation, the Torah, and the Ten Commandments (Exodus Chapter 20). After 40 years in the Sinai desert, Moses led them to the Land of Israel, that is cited in The Bible as the land promised by G-d to the descendants of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 17:8).

The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham (ca. 1800 BCE). Thus, Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years.

The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon (Shlomo, 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem as prescribed in the Tanach (Old Testament).

In 587 BCE, Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and exiled the Jews to Babylon (modern day Iraq).

The year 587 BCE marks a turning point in the history of the region. From this year onwards, the region was ruled or controlled by a succession of superpower empires of the time in the following order: Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.

 

[teddyearp]

Why is it whenever we have documentaion of facts the Palestinian supporters just seem to disappear?

I'm starting to notice that. I am not 100% against Palestinians, but I am not a supporter either. I'm trying to keep an open mind as both sides have made mistakes.

However, it seems like the posters on this board who support Palestine do not answer when a fair and balanced article is either posted or posted as a reply/rebuttal.

I especially love those hours long lectures posted where the first 20-30 minutes is all about the accolades, or how great the speaker is going to be; and then they are sooo boring!

 

[amity1844]

Fair enough everyone?

History Israel

No, it is NOT FAIR at all.

First of all, it is debatable whether anything that was going to make THIS MUCH TROUBLE for Jews, Arabs, and the entire known universe was NECESSITATED by the Holocaust. Many had and continue to have other solutions, including the Orthodox Jews on another thread.

This is TERRIBLE history. The population of British mandate Palestine on the eve of the declaration of state of Israel was NOWHERE NEAR half of the population. I believe it was less than 200,000.

The Arab governments were HARDLY a force against the proposed Jewish state. The Jewish population was very much more numerous, better armed, etc.

Thirdly, the misnomer for Palestinians = "Muslims." If he looks at many of the attacks he mentions, he will find that that particular incident was undertaken by either local Christians or foreigners. He also leaves off the very many attacks of the Jewish population against the Palestinian population. What Lebanese, Syrians, and Egyptians did is irrelevant.

Plus events that happened 80 - 70 years ago do not compromise the rights of today's Palestinians. No one who is alive today was adult during that period, so cannot be blamed.

Yes, Jewish refugees were admitted by the state of Israel during the same period of time Arabs were being expelled. It was a forced exchange and population exchange. That has never been acceptable in world history, and it wasn't acceptable in 1948. Surrounding Arab countries are not Zionist. They don't hold to this strange idea. Why then must they be forced to assimilate millions of unwilling Palestinians when their own populations are unwilling to accept the competition for jobs, the strain on resources and infrastructure, etc., that would be entailed?

100,000,000 human beings have become refugees since 1945 (worldwide) and no other people have been kept in camps anywhere close to this length of time in world history.

850,000 Jews lived in Muslim countries in 1948. Only 20,000 remain there today. None of the 830,000 who fled Muslim lands are in refugee camps; none are demanding the right to return to from whence they came.

If this logic holds with you, then anyone who is stronger AND can argue that they have a greater need can come take over your house tonight, throw you out in the cold, and tell your neighbors they are now responsible for taking care of you. Moreover, by this logic, if Arab countries can develop the force required to defeat Israel, then the Jewish population can be forcible expelled as the Palestinians were, and it becomes the rest of the world's problem. (By the way, I am obviously NOT arguing for this, but just proving the "for instance.")

As we have seen, "Israel's parliamentary democracy" is reserved only for Jews. Arab citizens have citizenship only, but without even minimal civil rights.

Nobody cares about Nasser. If he himself were forced to endure half of the misery he created for others.... But he and his actions don't compromise the rights of the Palestinians either.

By 1957, the State of Israel had progressed faster than any nation on Earth—further embarrassing their Arab neighbors.

I don't think anyone was embarrassed in the least. Arabs were also making strides during this period, but without the huge influx of capital in the form of aid sent to Israel. [/quote]

The population in the State of Israel had tripled in ten years, with diverse immigrants coming from around the world.

And Israel was apparently embarrassed that more immigrants were striving to come. FEW refugees from post-Nazi Europe, for example, were willing to emigrate to Israel's, despite Israel's pleading. After all, Nazi atrocities and refugee problems were the foundation of Israel's claims for aid and assistance from the rest of the world.

 

[MJB12741]

Finally here you are Amity. Sure gets frustraing for us pro America, pro Israel posters when alll of you terrorist supporters just disappear when documented facts are presented.

Fair enough everyone?

History Israel

No, it is NOT FAIR at all.

First of all, it is debatable whether anything that was going to make THIS MUCH TROUBLE for Jews, Arabs, and the entire known universe was NECESSITATED by the Holocaust. Many had and continue to have other solutions, including the Orthodox Jews on another thread.

This is TERRIBLE history. The population of British mandate Palestine on the eve of the declaration of state of Israel was NOWHERE NEAR half of the population. I believe it was less than 200,000.

The Arab governments were HARDLY a force against the proposed Jewish state. The Jewish population was very much more numerous, better armed, etc.

Thirdly, the misnomer for Palestinians = "Muslims." If he looks at many of the attacks he mentions, he will find that that particular incident was undertaken by either local Christians or foreigners. He also leaves off the very many attacks of the Jewish population against the Palestinian population. What Lebanese, Syrians, and Egyptians did is irrelevant.

Plus events that happened 80 - 70 years ago do not compromise the rights of today's Palestinians. No one who is alive today was adult during that period, so cannot be blamed.

Yes, Jewish refugees were admitted by the state of Israel during the same period of time Arabs were being expelled. It was a forced exchange and population exchange. That has never been acceptable in world history, and it wasn't acceptable in 1948. Surrounding Arab countries are not Zionist. They don't hold to this strange idea. Why then must they be forced to assimilate millions of unwilling Palestinians when their own populations are unwilling to accept the competition for jobs, the strain on resources and infrastructure, etc., that would be entailed?

100,000,000 human beings have become refugees since 1945 (worldwide) and no other people have been kept in camps anywhere close to this length of time in world history.

850,000 Jews lived in Muslim countries in 1948. Only 20,000 remain there today. None of the 830,000 who fled Muslim lands are in refugee camps; none are demanding the right to return to from whence they came.

If this logic holds with you, then anyone who is stronger AND can argue that they have a greater need can come take over your house tonight, throw you out in the cold, and tell your neighbors they are now responsible for taking care of you. Moreover, by this logic, if Arab countries can develop the force required to defeat Israel, then the Jewish population can be forcible expelled as the Palestinians were, and it becomes the rest of the world's problem. (By the way, I am obviously NOT arguing for this, but just proving the "for instance.")

As we have seen, "Israel's parliamentary democracy" is reserved only for Jews. Arab citizens have citizenship only, but without even minimal civil rights.

Nobody cares about Nasser. If he himself were forced to endure half of the misery he created for others.... But he and his actions don't compromise the rights of the Palestinians either.

By 1957, the State of Israel had progressed faster than any nation on Earth—further embarrassing their Arab neighbors.

I don't think anyone was embarrassed in the least. Arabs were also making strides during this period, but without the huge influx of capital in the form of aid sent to Israel.

The population in the State of Israel had tripled in ten years, with diverse immigrants coming from around the world.

And Israel was apparently embarrassed that more immigrants were striving to come. FEW refugees from post-Nazi Europe, for example, were willing to emigrate to Israel's, despite Israel's pleading. After all, Nazi atrocities and refugee problems were the foundation of Israel's claims for aid and assistance from the rest of the world.[/QUOTE]

 

[Roudy]

Actually, there were no Palestinian Muslims, even the Arabs who call themselves by that name now would be insulted if someone called them by that name. The reason being, the term Palestinian referred exclusively to Jewish people who lived in the region. That is, until Yasser Arafat and his band of terrorist thugs decided to hijack the name one cloudy day in 1967 and attribute it to the mish mash of invading Arabs, from neighboring Arab lands.

 

[MJB12741]

So true that among the indigenous Palestinians were Jews & not a single Muslim around, let alone Muslim Palestinians until after the 7th centrury AD. Want peace? End the occupation by finding a way for the Surrounding Arab countries to grant their Palestinians a right of return back to their indigenous homelands. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

Actually, there were no Palestinian Muslims, even the Arabs who call themselves by that name now would be insulted if someone called them by that name. The reason being, the term Palestinian referred exclusively to Jewish people who lived in the region. That is, until Yasser Arafat and his band of terrorist thugs decided to hijack the name one cloudy day in 1967 and attribute it to the mish mash of invading Arabs, from neighboring Arab lands.

 

[toastman]

Documented history; a Palestinian supporters worst nightmare..

 

[amity1844]

finally here you are amity. Sure gets frustraing for us pro america, pro israel posters when alll of you terrorist supporters just disappear when documented facts are presented.

fair enough everyone?

history israel

no, it is not fair at all.

First of all, it is debatable whether anything that was going to make this much trouble for jews, arabs, and the entire known universe was necessitated by the holocaust. Many had and continue to have other solutions, including the orthodox jews on another thread.

This is terrible history. The jewish population of british mandate palestine on the eve of the declaration of state of israel was nowhere near half of the population. I believe it was less than 200,000.

The arab governments were hardly a force against the proposed jewish state. The jewish militias were very much more numerous, better armed, etc.

Thirdly, the misnomer for palestinians = "muslims." if he looks at many of the attacks he mentions, he will find that that particular incident was undertaken by either local christians or foreigners. He also leaves off the very many attacks of the jewish population against the palestinian population. What lebanese, syrians, and egyptians did is irrelevant.

Plus events that happened 80 - 70 years ago do not compromise the rights of today's palestinians. No one who is alive today was adult during that period, so cannot be blamed.

Yes, jewish refugees were admitted by the state of israel during the same period of time arabs were being expelled. It was a forced population exchange. That has never been acceptable in world history, and it wasn't acceptable in 1948. Surrounding arab countries are not zionist. They don't hold to this strange idea. Why then must they be forced to assimilate millions of unwilling palestinians when their own populations are unwilling to accept the competition for jobs, the strain on resources and infrastructure, etc., that would be entailed?


If this logic holds with you, then anyone who is stronger and can argue that they have a greater need can come take over your house tonight, throw you out in the cold, and tell your neighbors they are now responsible for taking care of you. Moreover, by this logic, if arab countries can develop the force required to defeat israel, then the jewish population can be forcible expelled as the palestinians were, and it becomes the rest of the world's problem. (by the way, i am obviously not arguing for this, but just providing the "for instance.")

as we have seen, "israel's parliamentary democracy" is reserved only for jews. Arab citizens have citizenship only, but without even minimal civil rights.

Nobody cares about nasser. If he himself were forced to endure half of the misery he created for others.... But he and his actions don't compromise the rights of the palestinians either.

I don't think anyone was embarrassed in the least. Arabs were also making strides during this period, but without the huge influx of capital in the form of aid sent to israel.

the population in the state of israel had tripled in ten years, with diverse immigrants coming from around the world.

and israel was apparently embarrassed that more immigrants were striving to come. Few refugees from post-nazi europe, for example, were willing to emigrate to israel's, despite israel's pleading. After all, nazi atrocities and refugee problems were the foundation of israel's claims for aid and assistance from the rest of the world.

[/quote]

 

[amity1844]

Brief History of Israel and the Jewish People

"Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store."

The people of Israel (also called the "Jewish People") trace their origin to Abraham, who established the belief that there is only one God, the creator of the universe (see Torah). Abraham, his son Yitshak (Isaac), and grandson Jacob (Israel), are referred to as the patriarchs of the Israelites. All three patriarchs lived in the Land of Canaan, that later came to be known as the Land of Israel. They and their wives are buried in the Ma'arat HaMachpela, the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in Hebron (Genesis Chapter 23).

The name Israel derives from the name given to Jacob (Genesis 32:29). His 12 sons were the kernels of 12 tribes that later developed into the Jewish nation. The name Jew derives from Yehuda (Judah) one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Reuben, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Yisachar, Zevulun, Yosef, Binyamin)(Exodus 1:1). So, the names Israel, Israeli or Jewish refer to people of the same origin.

The descendants of Abraham crystallized into a nation at about 1300 BCE after their Exodus from Egypt under the leadership of Moses (Moshe in Hebrew). Soon after the Exodus, Moses transmitted to the people of this new emerging nation, the Torah, and the Ten Commandments (Exodus Chapter 20). After 40 years in the Sinai desert, Moses led them to the Land of Israel, that is cited in The Bible as the land promised by G-d to the descendants of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Genesis 17:8).

The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham (ca. 1800 BCE). Thus, Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years.

The rule of Israelites in the land of Israel starts with the conquests of Joshua (ca. 1250 BCE). The period from 1000-587 BCE is known as the "Period of the Kings". The most noteworthy kings were King David (1010-970 BCE), who made Jerusalem the Capital of Israel, and his son Solomon (Shlomo, 970-931 BCE), who built the first Temple in Jerusalem as prescribed in the Tanach (Old Testament).

In 587 BCE, Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar's army captured Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and exiled the Jews to Babylon (modern day Iraq).

The year 587 BCE marks a turning point in the history of the region. From this year onwards, the region was ruled or controlled by a succession of superpower empires of the time in the following order: Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.

587 BCE was a looooong time ago, Roudy.

A LOT has happened since then.

If I try to force my way into wherever my ancestors were back then and force the current inhabitants out, there is going to be a mighty big fracas.

 

[amity1844]

So true that among the indigenous Palestinians were Jews & not a single Muslim around, let alone Muslim Palestinians until after the 7th centrury AD. Want peace? End the occupation by finding a way for the Surrounding Arab countries to grant their Palestinians a right of return back to their indigenous homelands. LET THERE BE PEACE ALREADY!

Actually, there were no Palestinian Muslims, even the Arabs who call themselves by that name now would be insulted if someone called them by that name. The reason being, the term Palestinian referred exclusively to Jewish people who lived in the region. That is, until Yasser Arafat and his band of terrorist thugs decided to hijack the name one cloudy day in 1967 and attribute it to the mish mash of invading Arabs, from neighboring Arab lands.

Roudy, there are loads of sources referring to them as Muslims. I scratch my head over all this in wonder.

The only thing I can think of is that Egyptians sometimes refer to all Levantines collectively as "Shami". Means Damascene.

Other than that, I am not sure where this is coming from.

 

[Challenger]

Fair enough everyone?
...History Israel

An unsourced opinion piece blog by an entrepreneur, musician and writer, is hardly "documented history" is it?

 

[editec]

Fair enough everyone?

History Israel

Documented editorial, you mean?

 

[amity1844]

Roudy, a documented source doesn't just need to be in print, it really should have footnotes that cite primary sources.

 

[jillian]

Fair enough everyone?

History Israel

No, it is NOT FAIR at all.

your idea of fair is anything that idealizes terrorists.

 

[amity1844]

I got population figures from UNSCOP Try to work with the crazy formatting. At the time Israel was declared there were 608,000 Jews, and 1,237,000 Arabs:

Jews: 608,000

Arabs: 1,237,000

Arab population more than double Jewish population.


Territory

Arab and other population

% Arab and other

Jewish population

% Jewish

Total population

Arab State 725,000 99% 10,000 1% 735,000
Jewish State 407,000 45% 498,000 55% 905,000
International 105,000 51% 100,000 49% 205,000
Total 1,237,000 67% 608,000 33% 1,845,000

Data from the Report of UNSCOP: 3 September 1947: CHAPTER 4: A COMMENTARY ON PARTITION

 

[teddyearp]

Fair enough everyone?
...History Israel

An unsourced opinion piece blog by an entrepreneur, musician and writer, is hardly "documented history" is it?

While some of the links within are broken, is the one I posted in #3 any more fair? No body commented on it yet.

Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)