The biggest reason by far workers can't support themselves is they don't care...

[Avatar4321]

the cluster where you clowns keep thanking and repping each other is hilarious. Groupthink is the liberal way. But truth isn't determined by a vote. Which is why liberal lawyer economics never work.

Group think is what conservatives do best. Their constat nre-hashing what they hear from their talking heads. In economics it is especially acute. They re-state the mantra of shareholder capitaliism, supply side economics, low tax rates for the rich, and trickle down. All opinions with little or no credibility which have not worked. They regard any government regulation as socilalism because that is what they hear on talk radio.

Conservative = no independent thought. Group think in the highest order.

So turning to the wisdom of centuries and millenia of human history is a bad thing?

Government is an evil in the world. A necessary evil at times. but it's still an evil. The only good government is self government. Why? Because all other types of government require a use of force. People have to force their laws onto others.

When we have to use force, we are dealing with an evil. a necessary evil sometimes, but an evil nonetheless. Because the use of force can quickly lead to abuse and corruption.

Self government on the other hand require no force on anyone but oneself. It's far superior than using force on others.

We believe in self government. We believe that any external government must have it's power checked or men will quickly turn it towards abuse. It's an odd phenomenon that people think that the corruptions in society can only be fixed by empowering corrupt men in government to fix them. Does that make any sense to a reasonable person?

 

[rightwinger]

You have no right and you are not OWED advancement spoon fed by a company.. it is on YOU to advance, make yourself in demand, etc

As usual,

Conservatives respond to a collective problem with and individual solution

All solutions are individual. Which, of course, is why treating them otherwise is only putting a band aid on a superficial wound while ignoring the real problem.

No they are not

The economy affects people collectively. As an individual you may be able to do better or worse than others, but you can't change the overall state of the economy by "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps"
If EVERYONE works harder and produces more, that does not mean that EVERYONE will see a resulting increase in compensation

What we have learned is that when more money is made, the 1% just keep more for themselves

 

[Avatar4321]

As usual,

Conservatives respond to a collective problem with and individual solution

All solutions are individual. Which, of course, is why treating them otherwise is only putting a band aid on a superficial wound while ignoring the real problem.

No they are not

The economy affects people collectively. As an individual you may be able to do better or worse than others, but you can't change the overall state of the economy by "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps"
If EVERYONE works harder and produces more, that does not mean that EVERYONE will see a resulting increase in compensation

What we have learned is that when more money is made, the 1% just keep more for themselves

The economy is made up be individuals. As individuals find ways to provide for themselves by providing goods and services to others, the economy grows. It's when individuals don't that the economy fails.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Fact check what? You didn't say anything specific, I did. And it's basic history. You love and trust government, I got it. When government screws up, you won't see it, I got it. But government has the guns, government makes the rules, government forced banks to do it's bidding, government funded the housing bubble, but facts don't matter to a sycophant, do they de.yesman.eo?

Anyone who is gullible enough to believe that the government held a gun to the heads of the Wall Street banks and forced them to give junk balloon mortgages to anyone with a pulse wouldn't even know where to start fact checking because that requires critical thinking skills.

My area of expertise. Google Clinton and affordable housing. As for your lack of knowledge that the fed floods the housing market and other banking sectors with virtually free money and the obvious value bubble that creates, that's a level of ignorance no one can help you with. Have you considered jumper cables to jump start your brain?

Claims of "expertise" on the internet are meaningless. You can either prove your allegations with credible sources or you can't.

 

[kaz]

Anyone who is gullible enough to believe that the government held a gun to the heads of the Wall Street banks and forced them to give junk balloon mortgages to anyone with a pulse wouldn't even know where to start fact checking because that requires critical thinking skills.

My area of expertise. Google Clinton and affordable housing. As for your lack of knowledge that the fed floods the housing market and other banking sectors with virtually free money and the obvious value bubble that creates, that's a level of ignorance no one can help you with. Have you considered jumper cables to jump start your brain?

Claims of "expertise" on the internet are meaningless. You can either prove your allegations with credible sources or you can't.

I keep making specific points, you keep replying yes it is and no it's not. If you turn your brain on and put it in drive, I'll be glad to support any point that needs reasonable support. So far you're saying nothing much less supporting it other than you blindly trust government.

 

[Derideo_Te]

My area of expertise. Google Clinton and affordable housing. As for your lack of knowledge that the fed floods the housing market and other banking sectors with virtually free money and the obvious value bubble that creates, that's a level of ignorance no one can help you with. Have you considered jumper cables to jump start your brain?

Claims of "expertise" on the internet are meaningless. You can either prove your allegations with credible sources or you can't.

I keep making specific points, you keep replying yes it is and no it's not. If you turn your brain on and put it in drive, I'll be glad to support any point that needs reasonable support. So far you're saying nothing much less supporting it other than you blindly trust government.

To set the record straight you are the one making baseless allegation about the government, the economic collapse and your "expertise". You have been called out to provide credible sources to substantiate your allegations. But instead of providing the necessary proof you persist in making personal attacks.

This is your final opportunity. Failure to respond appropriately will be taken as conceding that you have no credible substantiation and your points will be classified as meaningless partisan drivel and treated accordingly.

 

[kaz]

To set the record straight you are the one making baseless allegation about the government, the economic collapse and your "expertise". You have been called out to provide credible sources to substantiate your allegations. But instead of providing the necessary proof you persist in making personal attacks.

First of all Mr. High and mighty, this discussion began with you asking if I paid my own way and when I said my parents helped me a little but I worked and paid most of it myself, you came back with thanks for being honest that my parents gave me a degree but not everyone has that.

But as to your point here, you have to be more specific. If you tell me what I said that you didn't know, specifically, then I'll be glad to back it up. But you haven't told me specifically what you want to know and I"m not going to just provide random documentation and have you say that wasn't what you were questioning.

 

[Derideo_Te]

To set the record straight you are the one making baseless allegation about the government, the economic collapse and your "expertise". You have been called out to provide credible sources to substantiate your allegations. But instead of providing the necessary proof you persist in making personal attacks.

First of all Mr. High and mighty, this discussion began with you asking if I paid my own way and when I said my parents helped me a little but I worked and paid most of it myself, you came back with thanks for being honest that my parents gave me a degree but not everyone has that.

But as to your point here, you have to be more specific. If you tell me what I said that you didn't know, specifically, then I'll be glad to back it up. But you haven't told me specifically what you want to know and I"m not going to just provide random documentation and have you say that wasn't what you were questioning.

What you said is in your own posts and you can read them again if you need the specifics. However given that you still refuse to comply with your obligation by not providing even a single vestige of substantiation for your bogus allegations they are now relegated to being partisan drivel. Your conceding your position is duly noted.

 

[barry1960]

the cluster where you clowns keep thanking and repping each other is hilarious. Groupthink is the liberal way. But truth isn't determined by a vote. Which is why liberal lawyer economics never work.

Group think is what conservatives do best. Their constat nre-hashing what they hear from their talking heads. In economics it is especially acute. They re-state the mantra of shareholder capitaliism, supply side economics, low tax rates for the rich, and trickle down. All opinions with little or no credibility which have not worked. They regard any government regulation as socilalism because that is what they hear on talk radio.

Conservative = no independent thought. Group think in the highest order.

Right, the fiscal conservatives, socons, republican libertarians and moderate "RINOS" who disagree on everything are groupthinking, while liberals who agree on everything are critical thinkers who all through independent research and analysis all arrived at the same answer for everything.

Keith Olbermann is an idiot, stop believing everything he tells you.

That was a pretty worthless response. Don't really watch Olbermann myself. Never liked him much back in the day when he was an ESPN newscaster.

My concern is with the economy and the increasing disparity of wealth and the shrinkage of the middle class. This is a result of policies of the so-called supply side economics. Such policy includes lower taxation espcially on the higher income brackets, the sole goal of business is to maximize stock value, and that you can magically reduce deficits by lower taxation. This is a mantra repeated by conservatives for decades. Since the 1980s it has lead to a massive government debt, CEOs who make short term business decisions to maximize share price in order to meet quarterly goals to cash in on personal stock option bonuses, a lack of research and development in companies, stagnation of employee wages as a result of wage earners receiving a smaller piece of the profit pie, elimination of employee retirements, corporate capture of the government regulatory process, and an erosion of opportunity for those born into thr middle class. Conservatives point to the so-called failure of Keynesian economics, ignore the failure of the past 30 years, and consider anything but capitalism devoid of any regulation other than market forces to be socialism. Conservative policies have run our economy into the ground and yet the unthinking mantra of conservatives is to continue them unabated.

 

[barry1960]

the cluster where you clowns keep thanking and repping each other is hilarious. Groupthink is the liberal way. But truth isn't determined by a vote. Which is why liberal lawyer economics never work.

Group think is what conservatives do best. Their constat nre-hashing what they hear from their talking heads. In economics it is especially acute. They re-state the mantra of shareholder capitaliism, supply side economics, low tax rates for the rich, and trickle down. All opinions with little or no credibility which have not worked. They regard any government regulation as socilalism because that is what they hear on talk radio.

Conservative = no independent thought. Group think in the highest order.

So turning to the wisdom of centuries and millenia of human history is a bad thing?

Government is an evil in the world. A necessary evil at times. but it's still an evil. The only good government is self government. Why? Because all other types of government require a use of force. People have to force their laws onto others.

When we have to use force, we are dealing with an evil. a necessary evil sometimes, but an evil nonetheless. Because the use of force can quickly lead to abuse and corruption.

Self government on the other hand require no force on anyone but oneself. It's far superior than using force on others.

We believe in self government. We believe that any external government must have it's power checked or men will quickly turn it towards abuse. It's an odd phenomenon that people think that the corruptions in society can only be fixed by empowering corrupt men in government to fix them. Does that make any sense to a reasonable person?

So you are an anarchist? True self-government would be anarchy. Not all government is evil. It can be good or it can be bad. Government is by nature an infringement on people's freedom. There is a name for that - civilization.

Libertarian dogma bores me.

 

[kaz]

To set the record straight you are the one making baseless allegation about the government, the economic collapse and your "expertise". You have been called out to provide credible sources to substantiate your allegations. But instead of providing the necessary proof you persist in making personal attacks.

First of all Mr. High and mighty, this discussion began with you asking if I paid my own way and when I said my parents helped me a little but I worked and paid most of it myself, you came back with thanks for being honest that my parents gave me a degree but not everyone has that.

But as to your point here, you have to be more specific. If you tell me what I said that you didn't know, specifically, then I'll be glad to back it up. But you haven't told me specifically what you want to know and I"m not going to just provide random documentation and have you say that wasn't what you were questioning.

What you said is in your own posts and you can read them again if you need the specifics. However given that you still refuse to comply with your obligation by not providing even a single vestige of substantiation for your bogus allegations they are now relegated to being partisan drivel. Your conceding your position is duly noted.

So you want general documentation for every statement I make in every post. I asked what you want me to show you, and your answer is everything. Got it. I'll give that all due consideration, little boy.

 

[kaz]

Group think is what conservatives do best. Their constat nre-hashing what they hear from their talking heads. In economics it is especially acute. They re-state the mantra of shareholder capitaliism, supply side economics, low tax rates for the rich, and trickle down. All opinions with little or no credibility which have not worked. They regard any government regulation as socilalism because that is what they hear on talk radio.

Conservative = no independent thought. Group think in the highest order.

Right, the fiscal conservatives, socons, republican libertarians and moderate "RINOS" who disagree on everything are groupthinking, while liberals who agree on everything are critical thinkers who all through independent research and analysis all arrived at the same answer for everything.

Keith Olbermann is an idiot, stop believing everything he tells you.

That was a pretty worthless response. Don't really watch Olbermann myself. Never liked him much back in the day when he was an ESPN newscaster.

My concern is with the economy and the increasing disparity of wealth and the shrinkage of the middle class. This is a result of policies of the so-called supply side economics. Such policy includes lower taxation espcially on the higher income brackets, the sole goal of business is to maximize stock value, and that you can magically reduce deficits by lower taxation. This is a mantra repeated by conservatives for decades. Since the 1980s it has lead to a massive government debt, CEOs who make short term business decisions to maximize share price in order to meet quarterly goals to cash in on personal stock option bonuses, a lack of research and development in companies, stagnation of employee wages as a result of wage earners receiving a smaller piece of the profit pie, elimination of employee retirements, corporate capture of the government regulatory process, and an erosion of opportunity for those born into thr middle class. Conservatives point to the so-called failure of Keynesian economics, ignore the failure of the past 30 years, and consider anything but capitalism devoid of any regulation other than market forces to be socialism. Conservative policies have run our economy into the ground and yet the unthinking mantra of conservatives is to continue them unabated.

You seriously didn't get my point? What we have here, is a complete and utter hypocrite who can't even see what he is when it's shown to him.

In other words, yes, dumb ass, it was stupid. That isn't a rebuttal, that was my POINT.

Make your points without the stupidity.

 

[barry1960]

Right, the fiscal conservatives, socons, republican libertarians and moderate "RINOS" who disagree on everything are groupthinking, while liberals who agree on everything are critical thinkers who all through independent research and analysis all arrived at the same answer for everything.

Keith Olbermann is an idiot, stop believing everything he tells you.

That was a pretty worthless response. Don't really watch Olbermann myself. Never liked him much back in the day when he was an ESPN newscaster.

My concern is with the economy and the increasing disparity of wealth and the shrinkage of the middle class. This is a result of policies of the so-called supply side economics. Such policy includes lower taxation espcially on the higher income brackets, the sole goal of business is to maximize stock value, and that you can magically reduce deficits by lower taxation. This is a mantra repeated by conservatives for decades. Since the 1980s it has lead to a massive government debt, CEOs who make short term business decisions to maximize share price in order to meet quarterly goals to cash in on personal stock option bonuses, a lack of research and development in companies, stagnation of employee wages as a result of wage earners receiving a smaller piece of the profit pie, elimination of employee retirements, corporate capture of the government regulatory process, and an erosion of opportunity for those born into thr middle class. Conservatives point to the so-called failure of Keynesian economics, ignore the failure of the past 30 years, and consider anything but capitalism devoid of any regulation other than market forces to be socialism. Conservative policies have run our economy into the ground and yet the unthinking mantra of conservatives is to continue them unabated.

You seriously didn't get my point? What we have here, is a complete and utter hypocrite who can't even see what he is when it's shown to him.

In other words, yes, dumb ass, it was stupid. That isn't a rebuttal, that was my POINT.

Make your points without the stupidity.

You have traded insult for debate. Easy to call someone stupid, hypocrite and dumb ass from the anonymity of the internet. Perhaps you should take a mirror and take a look at yourself.

Yea your point is that not all conservatives agree on everything. Neither do liberals, of which I am not. However, conservatives, while claiming liberals do not think, seem big on repeating the same old things.

 

[kaz]

That was a pretty worthless response. Don't really watch Olbermann myself. Never liked him much back in the day when he was an ESPN newscaster.

My concern is with the economy and the increasing disparity of wealth and the shrinkage of the middle class. This is a result of policies of the so-called supply side economics. Such policy includes lower taxation espcially on the higher income brackets, the sole goal of business is to maximize stock value, and that you can magically reduce deficits by lower taxation. This is a mantra repeated by conservatives for decades. Since the 1980s it has lead to a massive government debt, CEOs who make short term business decisions to maximize share price in order to meet quarterly goals to cash in on personal stock option bonuses, a lack of research and development in companies, stagnation of employee wages as a result of wage earners receiving a smaller piece of the profit pie, elimination of employee retirements, corporate capture of the government regulatory process, and an erosion of opportunity for those born into thr middle class. Conservatives point to the so-called failure of Keynesian economics, ignore the failure of the past 30 years, and consider anything but capitalism devoid of any regulation other than market forces to be socialism. Conservative policies have run our economy into the ground and yet the unthinking mantra of conservatives is to continue them unabated.

You seriously didn't get my point? What we have here, is a complete and utter hypocrite who can't even see what he is when it's shown to him.

In other words, yes, dumb ass, it was stupid. That isn't a rebuttal, that was my POINT.

Make your points without the stupidity.

You have traded insult for debate. Easy to call someone stupid, hypocrite and dumb ass from the anonymity of the internet. Perhaps you should take a mirror and take a look at yourself.

Yea your point is that not all conservatives agree on everything. Neither do liberals, of which I am not. However, conservatives, while claiming liberals do not think, seem big on repeating the same old things.

There is no debate when your argument is full of the idiotic point that anyone who disagrees with you is parroting Rush and FoxNews and whomever else you were thinking of. So my post was only to show you by doing what you were doing what a stupid ploy that was. Ironically you got it and didn't like it without recognizing that you had just done that and I was mocking you for it.

So, you have two choices now.

1) You can continue with the sick up your ass you don't get it bit you're doing

2) You can saw wow, what I did was stupid because I didn't like it when it was done to me. Point made, I won't do that, let's discuss the issue.

But to say "I" am insulting you and that's preventing us from discussing wealth when I specifically did back to you what you did is just childish.

 

[barry1960]

You seriously didn't get my point? What we have here, is a complete and utter hypocrite who can't even see what he is when it's shown to him.

In other words, yes, dumb ass, it was stupid. That isn't a rebuttal, that was my POINT.

Make your points without the stupidity.

You have traded insult for debate. Easy to call someone stupid, hypocrite and dumb ass from the anonymity of the internet. Perhaps you should take a mirror and take a look at yourself.

Yea your point is that not all conservatives agree on everything. Neither do liberals, of which I am not. However, conservatives, while claiming liberals do not think, seem big on repeating the same old things.

There is no debate when your argument is full of the idiotic point that anyone who disagrees with you is parroting Rush and FoxNews and whomever else you were thinking of. So my post was only to show you by doing what you were doing what a stupid ploy that was. Ironically you got it and didn't like it without recognizing that you had just done that and I was mocking you for it.

So, you have two choices now.

1) You can continue with the sick up your ass you don't get it bit you're doing

2) You can saw wow, what I did was stupid because I didn't like it when it was done to me. Point made, I won't do that, let's discuss the issue.

But to say "I" am insulting you and that's preventing us from discussing wealth when I specifically did back to you what you did is just childish.

I believe you are engaging with a strawman because you have read so much between the lines of what I wrote. No matter, let's move on. Please discuss wealth. i will await your intellectual discourse with bated breath.

 

[kaz]

I believe you are engaging with a strawman because you have read so much between the lines of what I wrote

Really? That's why I put it in red for you. Explain how what I did (on purpose to demonstrate the point) is different than what you did.

Group think is what conservatives do best. Their constat nre-hashing what they hear from their talking heads. In economics it is especially acute. They re-state the mantra of shareholder capitaliism, supply side economics, low tax rates for the rich, and trickle down. All opinions with little or no credibility which have not worked. They regard any government regulation as socilalism because that is what they hear on talk radio.

Conservative = no independent thought. Group think in the highest order.

Right, the fiscal conservatives, socons, republican libertarians and moderate "RINOS" who disagree on everything are groupthinking, while liberals who agree on everything are critical thinkers who all through independent research and analysis all arrived at the same answer for everything.

Keith Olbermann is an idiot, stop believing everything he tells you.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Regarding wal-mart, McDonalds and other discussions going on across the board, there is one thing that is overwhelmingly clear. Workers need to invest in themselves by getting an education, training, working harder, working longer and paying attention to detail. Those are how they make more money, and that is their job, not taxpayers and not their employers. However, the simple ability to support themselves is more basic than that. First, my background.

I have managed people starting about six months after I graduated college in 1988. For the next 20 years, I spent about half doing two stints in GE Management (GE Information Services, GE Power Systems, GE Capital, GE Consumer Finance) and the other half in management consulting (Booz Allen, et al). Since 2009, I have bought 5 businesses. I spun two off and merged the other three and run those as a single business.

Any worker other than extreme cases of retardation or mental illness, any worker could support themselves if they do one thing. Care. Of the hundred or so people I've fired in my career, they had repeated chances and their shortcomings were well within their ability. But they made the same stupid mistakes over and over and over. My low skilled workers now have to be closely managed and their work double checked by people who do care. No matter how poor a choices workers have made in the past, if they get a job and go every day and care about the quality of their work and reliably double check it before passing it on to someone else, they would quickly earn enough to support themselves.

It's indisputable fact to anyone with any real management and business experience.

What you're saying is that millions of the jobs we have in retail in this country are not real jobs but are rather the punishment for those who through some sort of inadequacy on their part deserve to suffer.

That is sheer elitist contempt for the dignity of honest labor.

 

[barry1960]

I believe you are engaging with a strawman because you have read so much between the lines of what I wrote

Really? That's why I put it in red for you. Explain how what I did (on purpose to demonstrate the point) is different than what you did.

Group think is what conservatives do best. Their constat nre-hashing what they hear from their talking heads. In economics it is especially acute. They re-state the mantra of shareholder capitaliism, supply side economics, low tax rates for the rich, and trickle down. All opinions with little or no credibility which have not worked. They regard any government regulation as socilalism because that is what they hear on talk radio.

Conservative = no independent thought. Group think in the highest order.

Right, the fiscal conservatives, socons, republican libertarians and moderate "RINOS" who disagree on everything are groupthinking, while liberals who agree on everything are critical thinkers who all through independent research and analysis all arrived at the same answer for everything.

Keith Olbermann is an idiot, stop believing everything he tells you.

Although I see the point you are trying to make, I rarely hear anyone quoting the left. The frequency is higher on the right, given the prevalence of FOX and right wing radio. Are you ready to move on?

 

[barry1960]

Regarding wal-mart, McDonalds and other discussions going on across the board, there is one thing that is overwhelmingly clear. Workers need to invest in themselves by getting an education, training, working harder, working longer and paying attention to detail. Those are how they make more money, and that is their job, not taxpayers and not their employers. However, the simple ability to support themselves is more basic than that. First, my background.

I have managed people starting about six months after I graduated college in 1988. For the next 20 years, I spent about half doing two stints in GE Management (GE Information Services, GE Power Systems, GE Capital, GE Consumer Finance) and the other half in management consulting (Booz Allen, et al). Since 2009, I have bought 5 businesses. I spun two off and merged the other three and run those as a single business.

Any worker other than extreme cases of retardation or mental illness, any worker could support themselves if they do one thing. Care. Of the hundred or so people I've fired in my career, they had repeated chances and their shortcomings were well within their ability. But they made the same stupid mistakes over and over and over. My low skilled workers now have to be closely managed and their work double checked by people who do care. No matter how poor a choices workers have made in the past, if they get a job and go every day and care about the quality of their work and reliably double check it before passing it on to someone else, they would quickly earn enough to support themselves.

It's indisputable fact to anyone with any real management and business experience.

What you're saying is that millions of the jobs we have in retail in this country are not real jobs but are rather the punishment for those who through some sort of inadequacy on their part deserve to suffer.

That is sheer elitist contempt for the dignity of honest labor.

Those on the right show their contempt for labor, all the while complaining about those who do not work.

Someone has to work at restaurants, clean offices, and work retail. They deserve our respect and a living wage.

Hard to believe someone like Kaz could possibly run at business and, if true, I pity those employees who work for him.

 

[francoHFW]

OP- One argument fits all for the ignorant angry white man...