The Carrier Deal

[Missouri_Mike]

Not sure I would classify giving tax breaks as crony but I can see the point these types of deals should apply equally to everyone. I'm hoping that is the end goal for Trump but since he doesn't have the power yet to do that this one they could work at the state level and get it done. The fact is Indiana give them a tax break to stay and will still be collecting taxes from the employees and corporation far exceeding that amount. The alternative was to let carrier move as planned and collect no money at all while having an additional 1000 people thrown on the welfare rolls costing even more. That 7 million was well worth giving up.

Trump has sent a signal to every business in America that all they have to do is threaten to move to Mexico and he will bribe them to stay.

At taxpayer expense.

You have it exactly backward. Business sent the signal to the government that with these tax rates so high they will move to Mexico. When are you people going to learn there's a limit to how much business owners will give you in taxes before they make a drastic change that will result in you collecting nothing from them?

Taxes have very little to do with why companies move out of the USA.

It's all about labor and material costs. You are a fool for bleeving it is taxes.

Well if that were true then why did carrier agree to stay with a tax break? How the hell did that change their costs of labor and materials?

$7 million for 700 jobs.

And I bet Carrier still leaves before Trump's presidency ends.

7 million divided by 1000 employees over ten years is 700 per employee per year.

 

[g5000]

Protectionism is popular with people who can't keep up. They want the old low tech jobs to be high paying jobs forever.

Rather than concentrate on education and training their kids for the jobs of tomorrow, they think their kids should be able to go to work in a horse and buggy factory at $40 an hour, and that we should put high tariffs on foreign buggies.

That's EXACTLY how LIBERALS think.

They fail to realize that a large part of the jobs that are gone did not go overseas. They are just flat out GONE. Obsoleted by capital investments in technology and efficiency which have paid off handsomely for the owners.

Funny...I really thought that was a conservative thing.
Hanging on to old technology like coal.
Rejecting new technology like solar.
Insisting on teaching religion in schools.
Resisting teaching science if it conflicts with their religious beliefs.
Looking back to the good old days.

Conservative vs Progressive...it's in the name isn't it?

And guess what is finally kicking coal's ass?

Hint: It isn't solar.

Hint: It wasn't government subsidies.

It is market forces. Natural gas is kicking coal's ass. The pseudocons have been lied to. They think the reason coal is losing these days is because of government regulation.

But the truth is that it was the markets which determined the winner. THAT is what REAL conservatism is about. Despite solar getting a leg up from government, the market still beat the shit out of dirty coal the old fashioned way.

Liberals should look and learn. The market always has a funny way of sorting our problems out.

So, it's either/or?
When has a single energy source been relied on exclusively?
Sure, gas is cheap and plentiful at the moment but it's hardly a leap into the future and solar is rising as a technology.

Coal provides 50 percent of our energy needs. No way solar is anywhere near the point of replacing that capacity.

Not even close.

But we have an ocean of natural gas which could do it much sooner.

It is therefore much more economically feasible to do it with natural gas, and that is exactly what is happening. Businesses are retooling from coal to natural gas at a much greater scale than to solar.

And that is why coal jobs are fucked. Demand, not regulation.

Are we disagreeing about something?

If you are in favor of government subsidies or tax expenditures, then yes, we are disagreeing.

 

[g5000]

Trump has sent a signal to every business in America that all they have to do is threaten to move to Mexico and he will bribe them to stay.

At taxpayer expense.

You have it exactly backward. Business sent the signal to the government that with these tax rates so high they will move to Mexico. When are you people going to learn there's a limit to how much business owners will give you in taxes before they make a drastic change that will result in you collecting nothing from them?

Taxes have very little to do with why companies move out of the USA.

It's all about labor and material costs. You are a fool for bleeving it is taxes.

Well if that were true then why did carrier agree to stay with a tax break? How the hell did that change their costs of labor and materials?

$7 million for 700 jobs.

And I bet Carrier still leaves before Trump's presidency ends.

7 million divided by 1000 employees over ten years is 700 per employee per year.

Companies think short term, and report short term. With mark to market accounting, they can claim the $7 million up front.

 

[BlindBoo]

I wonder if Carrier still gets the tax breaks for shipping those 1300 jobs to Mexico? When he assumes office, do you think the Groper Elect should impose the full tariff on them or a proportional one?

I wonder if Carrier still gets the tax breaks for shipping those 1300 jobs to Mexico?

There is a tax break for shipping jobs to Mexico?
When was it passed? Link?

Of course. Where do you live? Under a rock?

They will get to deduct their moving expenses. Why didn't Congress act? (Rhetoical question. We know why.)

The tax code currently allows companies moving operations overseas to deduct their moving expenses – and reduce their taxes in the United States as a result. Congress needs to act to help attract and keep good jobs in the United States by passing legislation that gives companies moving operations back to the U.S. a new 20 percent tax credit for moving expenses and pay for it by ending the tax break that allows companies to deduct expenses associated with moving operations overseas.

• Eliminating Tax Incentives to Ship Jobs Overseas: Congress needs to end the tax break that allows companies to deduct expenses associated with moving operations overseas, while still encouraging companies to assist displaced workers.

How the President’s Plan Would Deny Tax Breaks for Moving Abroad

President Obama Calls on Congress to Act on “To Do List” to Create Jobs

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Donald Trump and Mike Pence got Carrier to stay in Pence's state of Indiana by giving them a $7 million bribe that will have to be made up for by Indiana's taxpayers.

Sarah Palin has called this the usual crony capitalism that has NOT been making America great.

So much for a level playing field, boys and girls.

Obama and company gave failed solar companies $500,000,000 and didn't save one job.
NEXT.

When you look at ALL the subsidies the alternative energy sector received, the government came out ahead.

You see, your propaganda outlets are very careful to frame the picture they present to you so that you don't see the WHOLE picture. This way they can be sure you will parrot only what they want you to parrot.

Nope. You have to weigh each decision on it's own merits and not lump everything together to hopefully smooth over the really shitty decisions.
Cronyism and idealism are the reasons Solyndra and other companies received so much money without one single thread attached...just ...here have some money.
Everyone said these companies were failures and would do nothing but burn money. And BINGO that is exactly what happened.
What you say is exactly how cronyism and $billions are wasted by our government every month...just hide the failures.
Nope.

 

[idb]

Funny...I really thought that was a conservative thing.
Hanging on to old technology like coal.
Rejecting new technology like solar.
Insisting on teaching religion in schools.
Resisting teaching science if it conflicts with their religious beliefs.
Looking back to the good old days.

Conservative vs Progressive...it's in the name isn't it?

And guess what is finally kicking coal's ass?

Hint: It isn't solar.

Hint: It wasn't government subsidies.

It is market forces. Natural gas is kicking coal's ass. The pseudocons have been lied to. They think the reason coal is losing these days is because of government regulation.

But the truth is that it was the markets which determined the winner. THAT is what REAL conservatism is about. Despite solar getting a leg up from government, the market still beat the shit out of dirty coal the old fashioned way.

Liberals should look and learn. The market always has a funny way of sorting our problems out.

So, it's either/or?
When has a single energy source been relied on exclusively?
Sure, gas is cheap and plentiful at the moment but it's hardly a leap into the future and solar is rising as a technology.

Coal provides 50 percent of our energy needs. No way solar is anywhere near the point of replacing that capacity.

Not even close.

But we have an ocean of natural gas which could do it much sooner.

It is therefore much more economically feasible to do it with natural gas, and that is exactly what is happening. Businesses are retooling from coal to natural gas at a much greater scale than to solar.

And that is why coal jobs are fucked. Demand, not regulation.

Are we disagreeing about something?

If you are in favor of government subsidies or tax expenditures, then yes, we are disagreeing.

I am in certain circumstances.
Those circumstances don't include propping up old industries.

 

[Correll]

As China transitions from a manufacturing economy to a consumer economy, we will see the labor gap start to close. And that will save more American jobs than any government policy.

China is no where near that. Even if the Coasts did make that transition, the factories would just move to the poorer interior.


Current policy accepts middle class stagnation until the WHOLE WORLD is up to US labor standards.

IE FOREVER.

 

[OldLady]

As China transitions from a manufacturing economy to a consumer economy, we will see the labor gap start to close. And that will save more American jobs than any government policy.

China is no where near that. Even if the Coasts did make that transition, the factories would just move to the poorer interior.


Current policy accepts middle class stagnation until the WHOLE WORLD is up to US labor standards.

IE FOREVER.

It happened in Japan and it is happening astronomically fast in China, India. If we hold tight, things will even out. However, you are right--we are living in middle class stagnation until it evens out. And our middle class with it's ridiculously inflated standard of living expectations is not going to stop whining about it, you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

 

[Correll]

As China transitions from a manufacturing economy to a consumer economy, we will see the labor gap start to close. And that will save more American jobs than any government policy.

China is no where near that. Even if the Coasts did make that transition, the factories would just move to the poorer interior.


Current policy accepts middle class stagnation until the WHOLE WORLD is up to US labor standards.

IE FOREVER.

It happened in Japan and it is happening astronomically fast in China, India. If we hold tight, things will even out. However, you are right--we are living in middle class stagnation until it evens out. And our middle class with it's ridiculously inflated standard of living expectations is not going to stop whining about it, you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

And yet Japan still has a large trade surplus with US of over 50 billion dollars (on 300billion in trade)


That is not "evening out".


Our middle class does not have an inflated living standard.


A policy of fucking the middle class until the rest of the world catches up is not defensible.


Yet, if Hillary had won, or if Trump fails, that will be our policy for generations to come.

 

[AmericanFirst1]

Donald Trump and Mike Pence got Carrier to stay in Pence's state of Indiana by giving them a $7 million bribe that will have to be made up for by Indiana's taxpayers.

Sarah Palin has called this the usual crony capitalism that has NOT been making America great.

So much for a level playing field, boys and girls.

Why don't you mention Oregon's "bribe" to NIke, or Massoftwoshit's "bribe" to Amazon, or Nevada's "bribe" to Ebay?

Two Wrongs Make A Right Winger™.

Hypocrites.

My views on tax expenditures have been made ABUNDANTLY clear on this forum, moron.

Clear you are an idiot.

Calling an intelligent person an idiot makes you the idiot.

Prove he is intelligent.

 

[Dot Com]

So let's see. Carrier gets a $7M reduction in taxes over 10 years, has to invest $16M in retooling its plan in Indiana, and 800 people keep their jobs.

Sounds like a good model to roll out across the country: Lower Taxes For Everyone!

It apparently is egregious to G5000, another Repub who votes Dem.

You are a liar. This is what retards do. When they have an information vacuum, they make shit up!

I am a lifelong Republican conservative, dumbass.

You dumb fucks don't know a conservative principle when it bites you in the neck.

Just tell us what we already know, that u voted for hiLIARy just like the other USB Repubs who vote Dem- FakeyJakey, Joeb131. & Toro

Sent from my VS425PP using Tapatalk

 

[Dot Com]

7 Mil is paltry compared to other deals reached in other states pursuing the same goal as was mentioned earlier.

Sounds like OP is just sour grapes He must be a Dem Establ- voter

He said he was going to vote for Kasich.
His is a purely Republican stance. Why would you think he was a Dem? Just because he's in disagreement with Trump? You folks need to rethink that belief that every time someone disagrees with Trump it's a crying Democrat.

ummm..... Kasich was eliminated from the Primary and besides, he went to Wall St after leaving DC so that would REALLY make OP. look foolish lol

John Kasich's Wall Street ties could haunt 2016 bid - CNNPolitics.com

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

As China transitions from a manufacturing economy to a consumer economy, we will see the labor gap start to close. And that will save more American jobs than any government policy.

Not necessarily, the manufacturing could just as well shift to cheaper nations like Vietnam, Cambodia, and even African nations like Namibia.

If you get time you should read the book The Travels of a T-Shirt in the Global Economy. It's not too long. I had to read it in grad school when I was getting my MBA and it discusses this exact scenario.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

So let's see. Carrier gets a $7M reduction in taxes over 10 years, has to invest $16M in retooling its plan in Indiana, and 800 people keep their jobs.

Sounds like a good model to roll out across the country: Lower Taxes For Everyone!

It apparently is egregious to G5000, another Repub who votes Dem.

You are a liar. This is what retards do. When they have an information vacuum, they make shit up!

I am a lifelong Republican conservative, dumbass.

You dumb fucks don't know a conservative principle when it bites you in the neck.

Just tell us what we already know, that u voted for hiLIARy just like the other USB Repubs who vote Dem- FakeyJakey, Joeb131. & Toro

Sent from my VS425PP using Tapatalk

Not necessarily. I voted for Gary Johnson. He could have done the same.

 

[Siete]

So let's see. Carrier gets a $7M reduction in taxes over 10 years, has to invest $16M in retooling its plan in Indiana, and 800 people keep their jobs.

Sounds like a good model to roll out across the country: Lower Taxes For Everyone!

It apparently is egregious to G5000, another Repub who votes Dem.

You are a liar. This is what retards do. When they have an information vacuum, they make shit up!

I am a lifelong Republican conservative, dumbass.

You dumb fucks don't know a conservative principle when it bites you in the neck.

Just tell us what we already know, that u voted for hiLIARy just like the other USB Repubs who vote Dem- FakeyJakey, Joeb131. & Toro

Sent from my VS425PP using Tapatalk

Not necessarily. I voted for Gary Johnson. He could have done the same.

everyone who spits on Trumps feet voted for Clinton.


Not.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Donald Trump and Mike Pence got Carrier to stay in Pence's state of Indiana by giving them a $7 million bribe that will have to be made up for by Indiana's taxpayers.

Sarah Palin has called this the usual crony capitalism that has NOT been making America great.

So much for a level playing field, boys and girls.

Sadly this is nothing new and it is utterly bipartisan, it began again about half a century ago, more and more societal responsibility shifted away from the substantial people (concentrated corporate power and wealth) and onto the back of working people. There's a reason almost all governors stay away from this stuff, the reason even Pence didn't do this before now with His Highness; it is recognized as a race to the bottom. Nothing about and no one in this recent election was going to alter the trajectory.

Privatized gains versus socialized losses for the Wall Street bankster class
Internalized profit versus externalized risk and expense for the "job creator" class
Socialism for the aristocracy versus laizzes-faire capitalism for the masses

Same as it ever was.

I've lived in three states and two of the three used and use that tacitic that G5000 calls bribery and that Trump supporters are calling a tax break. It doesn't seem to have done much good, since the companies walked anyway after awhile. It seems it was just delaying the inevitable.
It is certainly nothing "novel" though.

"It seems it was just delaying the inevitable."

Yeah, hence the race to the bottom business.

 

[Fenton Lum]

Donald Trump and Mike Pence got Carrier to stay in Pence's state of Indiana by giving them a $7 million bribe that will have to be made up for by Indiana's taxpayers.

Sarah Palin has called this the usual crony capitalism that has NOT been making America great.

So much for a level playing field, boys and girls.

Sadly this is nothing new and it is utterly bipartisan, it began again about half a century ago, more and more societal responsibility shifted away from the substantial people (concentrated corporate power and wealth) and onto the back of working people. There's a reason almost all governors stay away from this stuff, the reason even Pence didn't do this before now with His Highness; it is recognized as a race to the bottom. Nothing about and no one in this recent election was going to alter the trajectory.

Privatized gains versus socialized losses for the Wall Street bankster class
Internalized profit versus externalized risk and expense for the "job creator" class
Socialism for the aristocracy versus laizzes-faire capitalism for the masses

Same as it ever was.

I've lived in three states and two of the three used and use that tacitic that G5000 calls bribery and that Trump supporters are calling a tax break. It doesn't seem to have done much good, since the companies walked anyway after awhile. It seems it was just delaying the inevitable.
It is certainly nothing "novel" though.

Exactly, Carrier will still leave Indiana when it is financially smart for them to do so.

And Indiana taxpayers will be out $7 million they will have to make up for.

The Carrier deal was pure theater by Trump. It's nice for the employees that won't be laid off--yet. But anyone who thinks this is going to become sweeping policy is crazy. Trump is too smart for that, I think. I hope.

Imagine, $7M tax burden shifted onto the working class for every 1000 jobs kept; temporarily. And every analysis I've heard of thus far on some of what he's proposing adds trillions to the national debt. Kinda odd how the debt is intermittantly a problem based soley on partisanshit and who's in.

 

[BluesLegend]

Another lib hate thread, they would rather 1,000 Americans lost their jobs to Mexico than credit Trump with a win. If libs were an offensive line they would just jump to the side and let the opposing team mow down their quarterback, disgusting. These people are not even true Americans.

 

[Siete]

Another lib hate thread, they would rather 1,000 Americans lost their jobs to Mexico than credit Trump with a win. If libs were an offensive line they would just jump to the side and let the opposing team mow down their quarterback, disgusting. These people are not even true Americans.

I look forward to Donald bringing home his clothing operations in Mexico and China and putting Americans to work ... then having his children and wife do the exact same thing ...

 

[BluesLegend]

Another lib hate thread, they would rather 1,000 Americans lost their jobs to Mexico than credit Trump with a win. If libs were an offensive line they would just jump to the side and let the opposing team mow down their quarterback, disgusting. These people are not even true Americans.

I look forward to Donald bringing home his clothing operations in Mexico and China and putting Americans to work ... then having his children and wife do the exact same thing ...

Sure just as soon as Trump shreds all the dumb ass liberal regulations and gets rid of the libs insane taxes and then rebuilds the factories the libs destroyed and then retrains people to do a real job. Apparently you wanted me to smack you around.