The confederates were assholes but knocking down their statues makes you an asshole too

[martybegan]

It declared itself a country, but no other county recognized it as such.

Recognized diplomatically only by Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, though recognized by some nations as a "belligerent power". Now part of the United States of America. ​

List of states with limited recognition - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

If you read my other posts i said it was recognized as a belligerent.

and have you ever actually looked at the size of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha?

 

[JoeB131]

The people fighting them made that choice, so fuck off.

The people who made those decisions were nowhere near the front lines.. They weren't the ones who lost arms and legs in the war.

 

[martybegan]

The people fighting them made that choice, so fuck off.

The people who made those decisions were nowhere near the front lines.. They weren't the ones who lost arms and legs in the war.

They made their choice with their votes, so again, fuck off.

 

[JoeB131]

They made their choice with their votes, so again, fuck off.

More like the politicians betrayed them... so there's that.

Just because they dropped the ball 150 years ago doesn't mean we don't pick it up and fix it now.

We can't dig up Nathan Forrest and give him the hanging he so richly deserved, but we CAN tear down all his statues.

 

[JimH52]

Wrong...the great majority of the confederate statues and monuments were erected in the early party of the 20th century, about 50 years AFTER the Civil War. Why then? Because the white supremacist of the day, many of whom were wealthy, wanted blacks to know their place. The statues were erected to intimidate African Americans.

This is coming from a good old southern boy that was a racist years ago and and educated himself and has grown to realize that the black community has been given a raw deal for FAR TOO LONG.

I am a southern and now realize that racism is a sickness and a inculcated illness. Ask yourself this. trump is from New York. Why is he defending the confederacy or even southerners? The answer is simple.

THE MAN IS A IGNORANT, UNABASHED, DIE IN THE WOOL, RACIST. His mantra of "Make America Great Again" really means
"Make American White Again."

IT ALWAYS HAS!​

 

[JimH52]

Most confederate monuments were placed by the KKK or some other such white supremacist group 50-70 years after the war ended. It's telling that the men who fought the war had to die before someone felt the need to memorialize the generals and politicians who promised soldiers the moon and gave then nothing but defeat.

Exactly! And the Moron trump is using the stupid southern pride to advance his racist views. And his southern cult are just dumb enough to go along with his sick plan. They are being lead by the nose by trump....and he is laughing at "those dumb southerners" behind their backs.

 

[martybegan]

They made their choice with their votes, so again, fuck off.

More like the politicians betrayed them... so there's that.

Just because they dropped the ball 150 years ago doesn't mean we don't pick it up and fix it now.

We can't dig up Nathan Forrest and give him the hanging he so richly deserved, but we CAN tear down all his statues.

No, they fought to restore the Union, and part of that was forgiving those who fought against it after they lost.

 

[JoeB131]

No, they fought to restore the Union, and part of that was forgiving those who fought against it after they lost.

But that was the problem. They didn't deserve to be forgiven.

Hey, do you know why Germany and Japan are such good international citizens today? It was because we took all the surviing Nazis and Fascists and hung their asses, after fully exposing their crimes. There's nobody in those countries who look back at World War II like it was a "lost cause" or they were doing anything noble.

The mistake we've let the South get away with was excusing their bad behavior then and their bad behavior ever since. Time to stop that shit. Tear down the statues. Take the racist mascots off the boxes.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

But that was the problem. They didn't deserve to be forgiven.

Hey, do you know why Germany and Japan are such good international citizens today? It was because we took all the surviing Nazis and Fascists and hung their asses, after fully exposing their crimes. There's nobody in those countries who look back at World War II like it was a "lost cause" or they were doing anything noble.

The mistake we've let the South get away with was excusing their bad behavior then and their bad behavior ever since. Time to stop that shit. Tear down the statues. Take the racist mascots off the boxes.

A big problem in your analysis, JoeB131, is that you see this as still a North/South problem, when it is today in fact a national problem. As you well know, this national problem, this “original sin” so to speak, started well before the Civil War, and continued in many forms afterward. The “Lost Cause” mythology represents only one aspect of this problem, and not the most serious aspect either.

 

[JoeB131]

A big problem in your analysis, @JoeB131, is that you see this as still a North/South problem, when it is today in fact a national problem. As you well know, this national problem, this “original sin” so to speak, started well before the Civil War, and continued in many forms afterward. The “Lost Cause” mythology represents only one aspect of this problem, and not the most serious aspect either.

I agree, we have a lot to fix.

But this is one of the bigger ones TO fix. The notion that the South was somehow fighting for a "noble" cause, when they were just fighting for the right to own other human beings.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

JoeB131 —

Agreed, with one proviso. “The South” was not homogeneous. Nor was the North or West. The cause for the “irrepressible conflict” of course was slavery, and it was why they seceded. The Confederacy had to be beaten. But many southern white soldiers were not slaveholders, as you well know. Many disliked their ruling oligarchs.

Most important to me is that when we speak of “We” and “You” today we should never be referencing that old North/South divide. When we talk of “we” it is important that we speak for all decent folk, black, white and brown, north, south, east and west. That is good politics as well as good for the soul of the nation.

 

[JoeB131]

Agreed, with one proviso. “The South” was not homogeneous. Nor was the North or West. The cause for the “irrepressible conflict” of course was slavery, and it was why they seceded. The Confederacy had to be beaten. But many southern white soldiers were not slaveholders, as you well know. Many disliked their ruling oligarchs.

Ho-hum. No, they weren't fighting to own slaves. They were fighting to keep the black man in his place, which is not competing for their jobs or wanting to date their sisters.

Most important to me is that when we speak of “We” and “You” today we should never be referencing that old North/South divide. When we talk of “we” it is important that we speak for all decent folk, black, white and brown, north, south, east and west. That is good politics as well as good for the soul of the nation.

Actually, nothing has changed. The same inbred, bible thumping South that fought tooth and nail for rich people to be able to exploit slaves are the same inbred, bible thumping morons who keep voting Republicans so big corporations can screw us. These people can't be reasoned with, they can only be CRUSHED.

 

[martybegan]

But that was the problem. They didn't deserve to be forgiven.

Hey, do you know why Germany and Japan are such good international citizens today? It was because we took all the surviing Nazis and Fascists and hung their asses, after fully exposing their crimes. There's nobody in those countries who look back at World War II like it was a "lost cause" or they were doing anything noble.

The mistake we've let the South get away with was excusing their bad behavior then and their bad behavior ever since. Time to stop that shit. Tear down the statues. Take the racist mascots off the boxes.

Again, not up to you to decide hundreds of years later. My god the unearned hubris you have.

Actually we didn't, we hung the top dogs and the obvious ones, and then us and the soviets used the lesser ones as government actors again because at the lower levels most people who could actually work government just joined up because they had to.

In WWII it was the whole world against them. In the civil war most countries didn't take sides.

Your grasp of history sucks as much as your politics do.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, not up to you to decide hundreds of years later. My god the unearned hubris you have.

Sure, we absolutely do. Hey Remember when people DID this in the 1990's?

Actually we didn't, we hung the top dogs and the obvious ones, and then us and the soviets used the lesser ones as government actors again because at the lower levels most people who could actually work government just joined up because they had to.

They executed 1,000 Germans and 1,000 Japanese. The Germans are STILL apologizing. The Japanese just like to change the subject. Nobody is really all that proud of what they did in WWII.

The South needs to be like that with the Civil War. No Statues. No lost cause mythology. A bunch of rich assholes went to war to keep slaves and a bunch of poor dumb white assholes caught bullets because they didn't want a Negro dating their sister.

In WWII it was the whole world against them. In the civil war most countries didn't take sides.

In WWII, the criminals were held responsible. The South, not so much.

 

[TheParser]

LOL.

Thank you for sharing this with us. It is so 2020. It describes brilliantly a certain MSNBC commentator, among others.

Dr. Washington was the greatest leader ever of his people.

He realized that after the horrific Civil War, it was necessary for the freed people to get an education and engage in constructive work and be well-behaved citizens.

There is no leader of his quality today.

I am so disappointed that President Obama has failed to speak out to condemn the madness unleashed by the BLM organizers and their foolish supporters.

 

[martybegan]

Sure, we absolutely do. Hey Remember when people DID this in the 1990's?

View attachment 353462



They executed 1,000 Germans and 1,000 Japanese. The Germans are STILL apologizing. The Japanese just like to change the subject. Nobody is really all that proud of what they did in WWII.

The South needs to be like that with the Civil War. No Statues. No lost cause mythology. A bunch of rich assholes went to war to keep slaves and a bunch of poor dumb white assholes caught bullets because they didn't want a Negro dating their sister.



In WWII, the criminals were held responsible. The South, not so much.

Lol, there were only 1000 top nazis....right.

As for communist statues taken down by actually oppressed people vs. our statues, if you really try to make that comparison you are a far worse human being than I thought.

 

[Viktor]

That's the way I look at it.

It's a dangerous idea. Rewriting history was a tactic used by the Communists in Eastern Europe and China. It's pure propaganda and people in democracies should not do it.

 

[22lcidw]

But that was the problem. They didn't deserve to be forgiven.

Hey, do you know why Germany and Japan are such good international citizens today? It was because we took all the surviing Nazis and Fascists and hung their asses, after fully exposing their crimes. There's nobody in those countries who look back at World War II like it was a "lost cause" or they were doing anything noble.

The mistake we've let the South get away with was excusing their bad behavior then and their bad behavior ever since. Time to stop that shit. Tear down the statues. Take the racist mascots off the boxes.

More often then not this is a tried and true saying..."To the winner goes the spoils".

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

It's a dangerous idea. Rewriting history was a tactic used by the Communists in Eastern Europe and China. It's pure propaganda and people in democracies should not do it.

Anybody who knows anything about historiography knows that “rewriting history” is normal, inevitable and what historians do. “Rewriting history” in light of present understanding is inevitable, even when no new information is available. It is not just a bad thing, by any means. It is part of making sense of history as modern values change. It is not just “the victors write history.” Arguably, in many respects after the Civil War, in terms of the the black freedom struggle at least, it was the losers imposing Jim Crow apartheid and white supremacy laws who wrote most of the history books about “The Lost Cause.”.

Of course mobs destroying statues is not the way to go, and lunatic excesses are always possible when mobs act. Usually, when it comes to that in a “democracy” like our own, it is a sign that there are serious problems in society that have long gone unaddressed, or an oppressive imposition of antiquated values ...

 

[JoeB131]

Lol, there were only 1000 top nazis....right.

As for communist statues taken down by actually oppressed people vs. our statues, if you really try to make that comparison you are a far worse human being than I thought.

Wow, so you are claiming that the statues of people who did THIS...

didn't oppress people?

Check your privilege, buddy. Check your privilege.