The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Toddsterpatriot]

A UN Security Council Resolution called for an armistice. An armistice ends the fighting without calling winners or losers. Israel claims that the Arabs lost that war. Not true.

Did the Arabs win that war?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: What actual step created Israel.
※→ P F Timore, et al,

PREFACE: "Self-determination became officially sanctioned after 1945, when it was included in the United Nations Charter, though it applied to existing states, not to peoples or national groups." ... "
Still, self-determination applied to territories and not to peoples."

SELF-DETERMINATION
Sovereignty, Territorial Integrity, and the Right to Secession​

REPORT FROM A ROUNDTABLE HELD IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE’S POLICY PLANNING STAFF. See Page V of Summary
By Patricia Carley


(COMMENT)

This is the Statment of Self-Determination.

"We, the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, proclaim the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called Israel."​

​

Now, you know that the Arab League threw a wrench into the works when they launched a coordinated attack on the four frontiers. And then, the Arab League would not come to terms over the conflict outcome.

That being the real-world reality, Israel established sovereign control on that territory necessary.

You may not like the answer, but there it is.

Most Respectfully,
R

"Self-determination became officially sanctioned after 1945, when it was included in the United Nations Charter, though it applied to existing states, not to peoples or national groups." ...

Indeed, it applies to a people inside their defined territory.

Palestine was created as a state according to post war treaties. This was affirmed by the League of Nations, several court cases, and the US who signed a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

The UN says that the Palestinuians, in Palestine, have the inalienable right to self determination, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity.

I see all of these being violated.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Did the Arabs win that war?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Now run away again.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Armistice - Sovereignty
※→ P F Timore, et al,

PREFACE: You have a serious problem WITH terminology and the real world.

A UN Security Council Resolution called for an armistice.

(COMMENT)

The UN "facilitated" (not called for) the four Armistice Agreements. However, the Arab Palestinian components (Arab Liberation Army and Holy Way Army) were disbanded by Arab League Forces.

An armistice ends the fighting without calling winners or losers.

(COMMENT)

Well, it is true that an Armistice calls for a voluntary suspension of military operations, but it is not the end of the conflict.

There is no such thing as a "winner" or a "loser" in an Armed Conflict. That is determined by either a "capitulation" which encompasses statements surrender or the terms of the peace treaty. ✪ Article 40 (Hague Regulation) states that Any serious violation of the armistice by one of the parties gives the other party the right of denouncing it, and even, in cases of urgency, of recommencing hostilities immediately (ie the Six-Day War).

Israel claims that the Arabs lost that war. Not true.

(COMMENT)

This is really an unintelligent claim.

◈ Anyone can look at the peace arrangement and see that the Hashemite Kingdom forfeited the sovereignty of all its holdings west of the Jordan River.​

​

◈ Anyone can view the arrangement after the 1973 Yom Kipper War, the encirclement of the Egyptian 3d Army: 19-25 October 1973 (Operation Valiant) - and that practically the entire Sinai Desert was in the hands of the Israelis. How do you think the Egyptian 3d Army got home?​

​

◈ I don't really see any formal claim by the Israelis concerning the outcome of the Arab-Israeli War. The Israeli ended the control of the Sanai Desert (Sovereign Egyptian Territory) in 1982 as part of the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty.​

I have never seen anything that documents that claim.

(COMMENT)

Show me the IL Government claim and we will discuss it.

A UN Security Council Resolution called for an armistice. An armistice ends the fighting without calling winners or losers. Israel claims that the Arabs lost that war. Not true.

I have never seen anything that documents that claim.

(COMMENT)

Putting all these claim elements together is incredible.

◈ UN Facilitate​

◈ The Armistice was a temporary halt to Military Operations.​

◈ What claim, show me.​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Armistice - Sovereignty
※→ P F Timore, et al,

A UN Security Council Resolution called for an armistice. An armistice ends the fighting without calling winners or losers. Israel claims that the Arabs lost that war. Not true.

I have never seen anything that documents that claim.

(COMMENT)

One more thing: I suppose you do NOT see the physical border.

But I think is is funny (maybe even curious) that YOU would mention that. While Israel has a mix of border markings, I think the Demarcations are within the traties (relative to the West Bank and Gaza Strip).

Hashemite Kingdom: Annex I(a)

Arab Republic of Egypt:

Article 1(2) Annex I: Egypt will resume the exercise of its full sovereignty over the Sinai​

Article II Annex II: The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, 1 without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip.​

___________________________________
Boundary marker – a construction consisting of one or more elements, designed to mark out the state boundary on the terrain.

Boundary pillar – an element of a boundary marker that has an established coloring, fitted with state symbols and a serial number.

Center zero-offset monument – an element of a boundary marker that is emplaced directly on the state boundary line.

Common geodetic network – a set of geodetic points located along the state boundary in the territories of adjoining states, whose coordinates and heights are determined in the systems of coordinates and heights used by the adjoining states to fix the spatial position of the state boundary during its demarcation.

Delimitation of the boundary – legal formalization in a treaty of the state boundary between adjoining states, whose position is graphically plotted on the topographic map and duly defined in its corresponding written description, whereupon the map and the description may become an integral part of the treaty or its annex.

Demarcation of the state boundary – marking out the course of the state boundary between adjoining states on the ground by means of state boundary markers, including compilation of demarcation documents.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Armistice - Sovereignty
※→ P F Timore, et al,

Indeed, it applies to a people inside their defined territory.

Palestine was created as a state according to post war treaties. This was affirmed by the League of Nations, several court cases, and the US who signed a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

The UN says that the Palestinuians, in Palestine, have the inalienable right to self determination, the right to independence and sovereignty, and the right to territorial integrity.

I see all of these being violated.

(COMMENT)

I think you are confusing the UK Administrative Government of Palestine --- with --- a non-existent (1932) State of Palestine

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Delimitation of the boundary – legal formalization in a treaty of the state boundary between adjoining states, whose position is graphically plotted on the topographic map and duly defined in its corresponding written description, whereupon the map and the description may become an integral part of the treaty or its annex.

OK, so where are Israel's boundaries.

Link to the treaties?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Armistice - Sovereignty
※→ P F Timore, et al,

PREFACE: You have a serious problem WITH terminology and the real world.


(COMMENT)

The UN "facilitated" (not called for) the four Armistice Agreements. However, the Arab Palestinian components (Arab Liberation Army and Holy Way Army) were disbanded by Arab League Forces.


(COMMENT)

Well, it is true that an Armistice calls for a voluntary suspension of military operations, but it is not the end of the conflict.

There is no such thing as a "winner" or a "loser" in an Armed Conflict. That is determined by either a "capitulation" which encompasses statements surrender or the terms of the peace treaty. ✪ Article 40 (Hague Regulation) states that Any serious violation of the armistice by one of the parties gives the other party the right of denouncing it, and even, in cases of urgency, of recommencing hostilities immediately (ie the Six-Day War).


(COMMENT)

This is really an unintelligent claim.

◈ Anyone can look at the peace arrangement and see that the Hashemite Kingdom forfeited the sovereignty of all its holdings west of the Jordan River.​

​

◈ Anyone can view the arrangement after the 1973 Yom Kipper War, the encirclement of the Egyptian 3d Army: 19-25 October 1973 (Operation Valiant) - and that practically the entire Sinai Desert was in the hands of the Israelis. How do you think the Egyptian 3d Army got home?​

​

◈ I don't really see any formal claim by the Israelis concerning the outcome of the Arab-Israeli War. The Israeli ended the control of the Sanai Desert (Sovereign Egyptian Territory) in 1982 as part of the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty.​

(COMMENT)

Show me the IL Government claim and we will discuss it.


(COMMENT)

Putting all these claim elements together is incredible.

◈ UN Facilitate​

◈ The Armistice was a temporary halt to Military Operations.​

◈ What claim, show me.​

Most Respectfully,
R

Israel claims that it won Palestinian land by defeating Palestine's neighbors in the 1948 war.

For one, Israel did not defeat Palestine's neighbors.

For two, What did Palestine's neighbors have to do with Palestine's land?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Israel claims that it won Palestinian land by defeating Palestine's neighbors in the 1948 war.

For one, Israel did not defeat Palestine's neighbors.

For two, What did Palestine's neighbors have to do with Palestine's land?

Israel claims that it won Palestinian land by defeating Palestine's neighbors in the 1948 war.

They couldn't win Palestinian land, there was no Palestine.

For one, Israel did not defeat Palestine's neighbors.

Still claiming the neighbors won? LOL!

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Current Sovereign Boundary Arrangements
※→ P F Timore, et al,

OK, so where are Israel's boundaries.

Link to the treaties?

(ANSWER)

◈ Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement Oslo II (1995) Map 6 •

◈ Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel •

◈ Golan Heights Law •

◈ Egypt and Israel Treaty of Peace (1979) •

◈ Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) •

◈ Letter dated 12 June 2000 from the Permanent Representative of Lebanon •

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Current Sovereign Boundary Arrangements
※→ P F Timore, et al,


(ANSWER)

◈ Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement Oslo II (1995) Map 6 •

◈ Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel •

◈ Golan Heights Law •

◈ Egypt and Israel Treaty of Peace (1979) •

◈ Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) •

◈ Letter dated 12 June 2000 from the Permanent Representative of Lebanon •

Most Respectfully,
R

How do any of those take Israel out of Palestine's borders?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

How do any of those take Israel out of Palestine's borders?

No Palestinian land, no Palestinian borders.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Current Sovereign Boundary Arrangements
※→ P F Timore, et al,

Israel claims that it won Palestinian land by defeating Palestine's neighbors in the 1948 war.

For one, Israel did not defeat Palestine's neighbors.

For two, What did Palestine's neighbors have to do with Palestine's land?

(COMMENT)

I have not seen a statement of Conquest (for the Israelis) nor a statement of Capitulation (Any Arab State). You will have to show me these before I believe that Israel made formal such statements.

What did Palestine's neighbors have to do with Palestine's land?

The Principle Arab League Forces (AKA: "Palestinian Neighbors") entered into the conflict. NOT any force representing the inhabitants of the territory formerly under the Mandate.

It was The Arab League Forces (ie Egypt and Jordan) that occupied the territory formerly under the Mandate and called the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including Jerusalem.

It was the Jordanians that Annex the territory formerly under the Mandate and called the West Bank.

There was no true entity called the State of Palestine until December 2012. And even that is questionable since the Palestinian Authority/Palestinian Liberation Organization and The Islamic Resistance Movement (the inhabitants not yet able to stand alone under the strenuous conditions of the modern world) perform the functions of a government. For more than a century, the nations of the West have underwritten the territory and stood responsible for these functions.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Current Sovereign Boundary Arrangements
※→ P F Timore, et al,

How do any of those take Israel out of Palestine's borders?

(COMMENT)

Israel was never a component of a self-governing institution called "Palestine." Israel was created through the self-determination of the Jewish People’s Council for the State of Israel.

Who created any self-determining entiry called "Palestine?"​

​

What political entity assumed the role of Government in the State of "Palestine?"​

​

When was the "State of Palestine" created?​

​

Where was the "State of Palestine" (not to be cconfused wwdith the Government of Palestine (1922 to 1948)?​

​

The Arab Palestinians did not participate in the creation of self-government institution. The Arab Palestinians did not participate (even rejected the invitation) to advise and assist the UK High Commissioner in the administration durirng the entire Mandate Period. There was no Arab entity participation in the Palestine Govenment; only the High Commissioner.

(THE TRUE QUESTION)

What "productive" contribution did the Arab Palestinians make in the creation of a developing nation? (RHETORICAL) NONE!

They Arab Palestinians whine about everything, but contribute nothing except corruption.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel was created through the self-determination

Self determination is a method of acquiring territory?

Link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Current Sovereign Boundary Arrangements
※→ P F Timore, et al,


(COMMENT)

Israel was never a component of a self-governing institution called "Palestine." Israel was created through the self-determination of the Jewish People’s Council for the State of Israel.

Who created any self-determining entiry called "Palestine?"​

​

What political entity assumed the role of Government in the State of "Palestine?"​

​

When was the "State of Palestine" created?​

​

Where was the "State of Palestine" (not to be cconfused wwdith the Government of Palestine (1922 to 1948)?​

​

The Arab Palestinians did not participate in the creation of self-government institution. The Arab Palestinians did not participate (even rejected the invitation) to advise and assist the UK High Commissioner in the administration durirng the entire Mandate Period. There was no Arab entity participation in the Palestine Govenment; only the High Commissioner.

(THE TRUE QUESTION)

What "productive" contribution did the Arab Palestinians make in the creation of a developing nation? (RHETORICAL) NONE!

They Arab Palestinians whine about everything, but contribute nothing except corruption.

Most Respectfully,
R

By the time of the armistice agreements, Israel had militarily conquered and occupied 78% of Palestine. As far as I can tell, Israel still occupies that territory.

Do you have any documents to refute that?

Link?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Self determination is a method of acquiring territory?

How is lack of it working for the Palestinians?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Israel had militarily conquered and occupied 78% of Palestine.

Who did they occupy and conquer it from?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate
SUBTOPIC: Current Sovereign - Self-Determination
※→ P F Timore, et al,

In 1975, the ICJ applied terra nullius to a territory in which the people who inhabited it were not "socially and politically organized." {INSERT: That would be the Arab Paleswtinians} The ICJ provided legal sanction to a radically expanded definition of terra nullius-from its original meaning as "blank territory," to an understanding that encompassed territory that was not empty or void of inhabitants.
This broad definition of terra nullius served historically to legitimize the acquisition of large tracts of land throughout the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries and had a particularly adverse effect on indigenous communities. Once the land was acquired, boundary lines were drawn to demarcate ownership between settlers. These boundaries were eventually recognized as territorial demarcations on the basis of which valid statehood-and its accompanying right of territorial integrity-could be awarded. The system was then buffered from a change in a period of transition by the doctrine of uti possidetis juris, which sought to maintain order by freezing the boundaries.
_________________________________________________
See Tomd§ Bartog, Uti Possidetis.Quo Vadis? 18 AUSTL. Y.B. INT'L L. 37, 44 (1997).

See CASTELLINO & ALLEN, TITLE TO TERRITORY IN INTERNATIONAL LAW: A TEMPORAL ANALYSIS, supranote 31, at 230-33.

Western Sahara, Advisory Opinion, 1975 I.C.J. 12, 39 (Oct. 16).

See S.J. ANAYA, INDIGENOUS PEOPLES IN INTERNATIONAL LAW (2d ed. 2004) (locating the position of indigenous peoples within international legal discourse). See, e.g., Michael Asch, From Calder to Van Der Peet: Aboriginal Rights and Canadian law, 1973-96, in INDIGENOUS PEOPLES' RIGHTS IN AUSTRALIA, CANADA & NEW ZEALAND 428 (Paul Havemann ed., 1999) (examining the impact of case law and legislation concerning indigenous people in Canada); Willem Assies, Indigenous Peoples and Reform of the State in Latin America, in THE CHALLENGE OF DIVERSITY: INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND REFORM OF THE STATE IN LATIN AMERICA 15 (Willem Assies, Gemma van der Haar & Andr6 J. Hoekema eds., 1998) (examining cases studies concerning indigenous peoples in South America).

See C.H. Alexandrowicz, The Role of Treaties in the European-African Confrontation in the Nineteenth Century, in AFRICAN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL HISTORY 27 (A.K. Mensah-Brown ed., 1975) (illustrating this process in the African context).

See, e.g., PARTITIONED AFRICANS: RELATIONS ACROSS AFRICA'S INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES 1884-1984 (A.I. Asiwaju ed., 1985) (examining the implication of territorial divisions on African identities and nations).

("The essence of uti possidetis is to secure respect for the territorial boundaries of a newly independent State at the moment when independence from a colonial power is achieved.").
PRINCIPLE SOURCE: Recommended Citation → Joshua Castellino, Territorial Integrity and the "Right" to Self-Determination: An Examination of the Conceptual Tools, 33 Brook. J. Int'l L. (2008).
Available at: https://brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/bjil/vol33/iss2/15

Article 15 • Volume 33 | Issue 2 • 2008 • Territorial Integrity and the "Right" to Self- Determination: An Examination of the Conceptual Tools. Joshua Castellino. pp 510-511

I apologize, I was under the false impression that you had an understanding that made it this far.
Their mere act of discovery by one state is not enough to confer a title by occupation. There are two requirements (i) the territory subject to a claim must not be under the sovereignty of any state (terra nullius) (ii) the state must have effectively occupied the territory.

Self determination is a method of acquiring territory?

Link?

(COMMENT)

There is no one-step, simple explanation that you seem to seek. It requires an objective and uncompromised view in order to find the answers to these simple-sounding questions.

I've said this a number of different ways. But in essense, when you say that the Arab Palestinians declined or rejected the opportunity to organize self-governing institutions - that means the Arab Palestinians intentionally chose not to socially or politically organize to the path of self-determination. The Arab Palestinians did it twice then the Arab Palestinians rejected participation in the UK Administration of the Government of Palestine. When they did that (1923), the term "Palestine" from a domestic territorial affiliation, had no meaning. And again in January 1948, the Arab Palestinians refused to participate in the preparation of self-governing institutions. This meant, that when the Mandate terminated, they were (yet again) unorganized. To rub salt into the wound, when the Hashemite Kingdom cut all ties with its holdings west of the Jordan River, that left the West Bank "terra nullius" and effectively placed the territory into the hands of the Israeli Occupation Force because the Arab Palestinian was (one more time) unprepared to assume governmental responsibilities. Oddly enough, each of these very bad social and political decisions was made on their own - under the principle of (you guessed it) "self-determination." And it worked against them.

Now, the Arab Palestinians are whining to anyone that will listen about how it is so unfair for the Arab Palestinians to be penalized for their bad decisions. Well, any number of nations would lie to "do-over" some of the conflicts that did not turn out in their favor.

The longer the Arab Palestinians drag their feet in the hope that some miracle will pull their fat out of the fire, the greater the injury will be.

Again, don't you see the irony?

Abbas Wants Negotiations with Israel to Begin with Border Demarcation ​

Sunday, 12 December, 2021 - 10:00​

Most Respectfully,
R