The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[montelatici]

Exactly, they are Arab speaking people who identify as Arab.

So, they are an Arab speaking (and Arab culture) people who identify (self-determine) as Arab BUT they are not Arab?

PAHLEEEEESE.

And besides that, what does it matter?

It doesn't matter the slightest bit to me. I'm the one who believes both people should have self-determination. I think all this talk of DNA and who identifies as whom and who came here from which place, when and why is stupid and rather unsavoury.

The Jewish people have been there for thousands of years. This is obvious historical fact.

The Arab Palestinians have been there for many, many hundreds of years. This is also obvious historical fact.

They both deserve States. Just get ON with it.

The Jewish people of the area and others converted to Christianity and then most to Islam. The Palestinian's ancestors are those people. Don't you get it. The Zionist colonists are Europeans.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Exactly, they are Arab speaking people who identify as Arab.

So, they are an Arab speaking (and Arab culture) people who identify (self-determine) as Arab BUT they are not Arab?

PAHLEEEEESE.

And besides that, what does it matter?

It doesn't matter the slightest bit to me. I'm the one who believes both people should have self-determination. I think all this talk of DNA and who identifies as whom and who came here from which place, when and why is stupid and rather unsavoury.

The Jewish people have been there for thousands of years. This is obvious historical fact.

The Arab Palestinians have been there for many, many hundreds of years. This is also obvious historical fact.

They both deserve States. Just get ON with it.

Where are the Palestinians supposed to have a state when they are not allowed to return to their homes?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Exactly, they are Arab speaking people who identify as Arab.

So, they are an Arab speaking (and Arab culture) people who identify (self-determine) as Arab BUT they are not Arab?

PAHLEEEEESE.

And besides that, what does it matter?

It doesn't matter the slightest bit to me. I'm the one who believes both people should have self-determination. I think all this talk of DNA and who identifies as whom and who came here from which place, when and why is stupid and rather unsavoury.

The Jewish people have been there for thousands of years. This is obvious historical fact.

The Arab Palestinians have been there for many, many hundreds of years. This is also obvious historical fact.

They both deserve States. Just get ON with it.

The Jewish people of the area and others converted to Christianity and then most to Islam. The Palestinian's ancestors are those people. Don't you get it. The Zionist colonists are Europeans.

Exactly, they are Arab speaking people who identify as Arab.

So, they are an Arab speaking (and Arab culture) people who identify (self-determine) as Arab BUT they are not Arab?

PAHLEEEEESE.

And besides that, what does it matter?

It doesn't matter the slightest bit to me. I'm the one who believes both people should have self-determination. I think all this talk of DNA and who identifies as whom and who came here from which place, when and why is stupid and rather unsavoury.

The Jewish people have been there for thousands of years. This is obvious historical fact.

The Arab Palestinians have been there for many, many hundreds of years. This is also obvious historical fact.

They both deserve States. Just get ON with it.

Where are the Palestinians supposed to have a state when they are not allowed to return to their homes?

The West Bank and Gaza (which is a great sacrifice on Israel's part, since the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria, is the biblical heartland). Palestinians living in Syria, Lebanon or Jordan can be absorbed into those countries and made citizens, with generous compensation packages from Israel.

 

[Shusha]

Where are the Palestinians supposed to have a state when they are not allowed to return to their homes?

This isn't especially hard. The Jewish Palestinians will have part of the territory and the Arab Palestinians will have part of the territory. The Jewish part will be Jewish in nature and the Arab part will be Arab in nature. There will be some Arabs living in Israel who will be required to be loyal to the Jewish State. There will be some Jews living in Palestine who will be required to be loyal to the Arab State. If they are unable to do that -- they get deported to the other State.

Why is this hard?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where are the Palestinians supposed to have a state when they are not allowed to return to their homes?

This isn't especially hard. The Jewish Palestinians will have part of the territory and the Arab Palestinians will have part of the territory. The Jewish part will be Jewish in nature and the Arab part will be Arab in nature. There will be some Arabs living in Israel who will be required to be loyal to the Jewish State. There will be some Jews living in Palestine who will be required to be loyal to the Arab State. If they are unable to do that -- they get deported to the other State.

Why is this hard?

Will the Palestinians get their orange groves back? Will they get their farms, factories, commercial real estate, etc.?

 

[Shusha]

Where are the Palestinians supposed to have a state when they are not allowed to return to their homes?

This isn't especially hard. The Jewish Palestinians will have part of the territory and the Arab Palestinians will have part of the territory. The Jewish part will be Jewish in nature and the Arab part will be Arab in nature. There will be some Arabs living in Israel who will be required to be loyal to the Jewish State. There will be some Jews living in Palestine who will be required to be loyal to the Arab State. If they are unable to do that -- they get deported to the other State.

Why is this hard?

Will the Palestinians get their orange groves back? Will they get their farms, factories, commercial real estate, etc.?

You are talking about compensation for lost assets. I think everyone should be compensated for those losses. Jews and Arabs both.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where are the Palestinians supposed to have a state when they are not allowed to return to their homes?

This isn't especially hard. The Jewish Palestinians will have part of the territory and the Arab Palestinians will have part of the territory. The Jewish part will be Jewish in nature and the Arab part will be Arab in nature. There will be some Arabs living in Israel who will be required to be loyal to the Jewish State. There will be some Jews living in Palestine who will be required to be loyal to the Arab State. If they are unable to do that -- they get deported to the other State.

Why is this hard?

Will the Palestinians get their orange groves back? Will they get their farms, factories, commercial real estate, etc.?

You are talking about compensation for lost assets. I think everyone should be compensated for those losses. Jews and Arabs both.

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

 

[Shusha]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

 

[Shusha]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

 

[Shusha]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

Then he won't have a problem choosing his land over Arab Palestinian self-determination in the place where he was living. No big deal. Nice loyal citizen of Israel. What's the problem?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

Then he won't have a problem choosing his land over Arab Palestinian self-determination in the place where he was living. No big deal. Nice loyal citizen of Israel. What's the problem?

I don't have a problem with the Palestinians returning. It is the right thing to do.

 

[rylah]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

It's a myth that peasants owned much land, by the end of 19th century majority of them was already dispossessed by Bedouins and/or in debt to a number of major landowners. For example in Nablus by the end of the 18th century Ottomans installed dominant clans from Syria to weaken independence that resulted in a policy of allotting a piece of land for 2 years only for each family, before changing hands. During the Mandate many were relocated to other lands under agreement and ALREADY received compensation.

I'm not saying no fallah owned a piece of land - but it was unusual for their status.Many large landowners were people from Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait etc. To stretch that into a claim that "land inhabited and worked by Palestinian Arabs belonged to them" is a simplistic deception.

Like in a case one receives a loan from a bank. The bank is sold to a new owner, but the customer with the loan claims the whole capital of the bank was his from the beginning.

https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

 

[montelatici]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

It's a myth that peasants owned much land, by the end of 19th century majority of them was already dispossessed by Bedouins and/or in debt to a number of major landowners. For example in Nablus by the end of the 18th century Ottomans installed dominant clans from Syria to weaken independence that resulted in a policy of allotting a piece of land for 2 years only for each family, before changing hands. During the Mandate many were relocated to other lands under agreement and ALREADY received compensation.

I'm not saying no fallah owned a piece of land - but it was unusual for their status.Many large landowners were people from Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait etc. To stretch that into a claim that "land inhabited and worked by Palestinian Arabs belonged to them" is a simplistic deception.

Like in a case one receives a loan from a bank. The bank is sold to a new owner, but the customer with the loan claims the whole capital of the bank was his from the beginning.

https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

Well, we do know who owned most of the land in 1945 pursuant to the British cadastral survey:

 

[rylah]

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

It's a myth that peasants owned much land, by the end of 19th century majority of them was already dispossessed by Bedouins and/or in debt to a number of major landowners. For example in Nablus by the end of the 18th century Ottomans installed dominant clans from Syria to weaken independence that resulted in a policy of allotting a piece of land for 2 years only for each family, before changing hands. During the Mandate many were relocated to other lands under agreement and ALREADY received compensation.

I'm not saying no fallah owned a piece of land - but it was unusual for their status.Many large landowners were people from Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait etc. To stretch that into a claim that "land inhabited and worked by Palestinian Arabs belonged to them" is a simplistic deception.

Like in a case one receives a loan from a bank. The bank is sold to a new owner, but the customer with the loan claims the whole capital of the bank was his from the beginning.

https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

Well, we do know who owned most of the land in 1945 pursuant to the British cadastral survey:

How does it even argue with anything I've posted?
Arabs from Kuwait, Cairo and Damascus and other countries owned much of those lands.... little was owned by the locals. And not only Jews bought lands for Israel.

Jews bought lands in Huran as well, it doesn't mean the peasants who worked for them could now claim the Syrian govt. owns them something.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Actually I am talking about returning assets.

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

It's a myth that peasants owned much land, by the end of 19th century majority of them was already dispossessed by Bedouins and/or in debt to a number of major landowners. For example in Nablus by the end of the 18th century Ottomans installed dominant clans from Syria to weaken independence that resulted in a policy of allotting a piece of land for 2 years only for each family, before changing hands. During the Mandate many were relocated to other lands under agreement and ALREADY received compensation.

I'm not saying no fallah owned a piece of land - but it was unusual for their status.Many large landowners were people from Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait etc. To stretch that into a claim that "land inhabited and worked by Palestinian Arabs belonged to them" is a simplistic deception.

Like in a case one receives a loan from a bank. The bank is sold to a new owner, but the customer with the loan claims the whole capital of the bank was his from the beginning.

https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

It's a myth that peasants owned much land,

It is a myth that they did not. Most of the cities, towns, and villages pre date the Ottoman Empire. The land was ceased after the conquest. That land was ceded back to Palestine after WWI. That land was then returned to the original owners. Britain, the UN, and a private organization have been compiling these transfers from records.

 

[montelatici]

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

It's a myth that peasants owned much land, by the end of 19th century majority of them was already dispossessed by Bedouins and/or in debt to a number of major landowners. For example in Nablus by the end of the 18th century Ottomans installed dominant clans from Syria to weaken independence that resulted in a policy of allotting a piece of land for 2 years only for each family, before changing hands. During the Mandate many were relocated to other lands under agreement and ALREADY received compensation.

I'm not saying no fallah owned a piece of land - but it was unusual for their status.Many large landowners were people from Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait etc. To stretch that into a claim that "land inhabited and worked by Palestinian Arabs belonged to them" is a simplistic deception.

Like in a case one receives a loan from a bank. The bank is sold to a new owner, but the customer with the loan claims the whole capital of the bank was his from the beginning.

https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

Well, we do know who owned most of the land in 1945 pursuant to the British cadastral survey:

How does it even argue with anything I've posted?
Arabs from Kuwait, Cairo and Damascus and other countries owned much of those lands.... little was owned by the locals. And not only Jews bought lands for Israel.

Jews bought lands in Huran as well, it doesn't mean the peasants who worked for them could now claim the Syrian govt. owns them something.

The cadastral survey registered foreign owners within "public and other" in the tables associated with the map. The Arab ownership means Palestinian Arab ownership as opposed to Palestinian Jew ownership.

 

[rylah]

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

It's a myth that peasants owned much land, by the end of 19th century majority of them was already dispossessed by Bedouins and/or in debt to a number of major landowners. For example in Nablus by the end of the 18th century Ottomans installed dominant clans from Syria to weaken independence that resulted in a policy of allotting a piece of land for 2 years only for each family, before changing hands. During the Mandate many were relocated to other lands under agreement and ALREADY received compensation.

I'm not saying no fallah owned a piece of land - but it was unusual for their status.Many large landowners were people from Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait etc. To stretch that into a claim that "land inhabited and worked by Palestinian Arabs belonged to them" is a simplistic deception.

Like in a case one receives a loan from a bank. The bank is sold to a new owner, but the customer with the loan claims the whole capital of the bank was his from the beginning.

https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

Well, we do know who owned most of the land in 1945 pursuant to the British cadastral survey:

How does it even argue with anything I've posted?
Arabs from Kuwait, Cairo and Damascus and other countries owned much of those lands.... little was owned by the locals. And not only Jews bought lands for Israel.

Jews bought lands in Huran as well, it doesn't mean the peasants who worked for them could now claim the Syrian govt. owns them something.

The cadastral survey registered foreign owners within "public and other" in the tables associated with the map. The Arab ownership means Palestinian Arab ownership as opposed to Palestinian Jew ownership.

I don't see a link - not cuts and pieces of documents like You usually do.
I know that Hadauwi manipulated many public and "other" lands to be registered as "Arab".

 

[rylah]

So not any orange grove -- but that particular square of land orange grove. One has to ask why? Why that particular square of land? And not an orange grove five miles away? What are we trying to restore here?

Can the person be loyal to Israel? Do they want to live, as monte so ungraciously puts it, under "Jew rule"? Do they want to live in a Jewish land with Jewish culture and Jewish laws and Jewish language and Jewish holidays? Why or why not?

See, you don't actually seem to be aware of it, but you can only be arguing for one of two things -- return but no Arab self-determination in part of the territory or return in order to destroy Israel from the inside. Which are you actually arguing for?

If Israel has placed itself into that situation, I am not the one to cry about it.

Nice duck.

WHY does the person want THAT particular orange grove? Answer the questions.

Because it is his.

It's a myth that peasants owned much land, by the end of 19th century majority of them was already dispossessed by Bedouins and/or in debt to a number of major landowners. For example in Nablus by the end of the 18th century Ottomans installed dominant clans from Syria to weaken independence that resulted in a policy of allotting a piece of land for 2 years only for each family, before changing hands. During the Mandate many were relocated to other lands under agreement and ALREADY received compensation.

I'm not saying no fallah owned a piece of land - but it was unusual for their status.Many large landowners were people from Cairo, Damascus, Kuwait etc. To stretch that into a claim that "land inhabited and worked by Palestinian Arabs belonged to them" is a simplistic deception.

Like in a case one receives a loan from a bank. The bank is sold to a new owner, but the customer with the loan claims the whole capital of the bank was his from the beginning.

https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf

It's a myth that peasants owned much land,

It is a myth that they did not. Most of the cities, towns, and villages pre date the Ottoman Empire. The land was ceased after the conquest. That land was ceded back to Palestine after WWI. That land was then returned to the original owners. Britain, the UN, and a private organization have been compiling these transfers from records.

Most of the villages and towns predate Arab Muslim conquest as well...and many bear Jewish names SO??

Sole possession is not a proof. Villages were abandoned during Bedouin raids later to be inhabited by new migrants, same nomad Bedouins with their slaves and later Arab labor migrants from all continents.