The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Well, as I have said before, you are entitled to believe what you want. You and I understand the scriptures very differently. I am not here to try and convince you to believe my way.
But I have almost given up on your ability to listen properly. You still insist we believe God had sex with Mary. But even though I have already told you that is a lie, you are still insisting on it. I even showed you from the book of mormon where it proves it. You just are blind beyond belief. Or stubborn. Let's just go our separate ways cuz you and I won't get anywhere.

You can think I am going to hell and that's fine. We will see at the last day won't we?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well, as I have said before, you are entitled to believe what you want. You and I understand the scriptures very differently. I am not here to try and convince you to believe my way.
But I have almost given up on your ability to listen properly. You still insist we believe God had sex with Mary. But even though I have already told you that is a lie, you are still insisting on it. I even showed you from the book of mormon where it proves it. You just are blind beyond belief. Or stubborn. Let's just go our separate ways cuz you and I won't get anywhere.

You can think I am going to hell and that's fine. We will see at the last day won't we?

 

[Eightball]

Well, as I have said before, you are entitled to believe what you want. You and I understand the scriptures very differently. I am not here to try and convince you to believe my way.
But I have almost given up on your ability to listen properly. You still insist we believe God had sex with Mary. But even though I have already told you that is a lie, you are still insisting on it. I even showed you from the book of mormon where it proves it. You just are blind beyond belief. Or stubborn. Let's just go our separate ways cuz you and I won't get anywhere.

You can think I am going to hell and that's fine. We will see at the last day won't we?

They(LDS) change the definition of the word virgin. Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase "virgin birth" because God was an IMMORTAL being who had sex with Mary, not a mere mortal man. And this is exactly what Bruce McConkie, (top LSD theologian, and one of the Mormon 12 Apostles, died in 1985) said:

"For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).
In other words, if Joseph had sex with Mary she would not have been a virgin, but since God had sex with Mary, she remains a virgin.

By "Virgin birth", Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin!
**********
Here is the statement of BY's that JFS supports:
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
(JoD 1:50-51, also "Answers", vol. 5, p. 121).

To illustrate more clearly that BY meant that Christ's conception was actual
physical sex, here is another of his statements:
"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten
of his father, as we were of our fathers." (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).

Here are a few more quotes from the 1962 Gospel Doctrine Sunday School Lesson
Manual "Gospel Living in the Home," p. 16-17:
"Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily OFFSPRING; that
is to say, Elohim is LITERALLY the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and
also of the BODY in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh..."
(as quoted from 'The Articles of Faith' by James E. Talmage, p. 466).

"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?" (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep.
22, 1914).

"When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the
world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was
begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND
YOU AND ME." (as quoted from 'Discourses of Brigham Young," 1925 edition, p.
77).

"The Holy Ghost came upon Mary, her conception was under that influence, even
of the spirit of life; our Father in Heaven was the Father of the Son of
Mary....." (as quoted from Joseph Fielding Smith, 'Man: His Origin and
Destiny), p. 345.)

To allay any repugnancy from members on the idea of God having actual physical
relations with the human Mary, some leaders pitched the idea that Mary was one
of God's polygamous "celestial wives":

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have
been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right
to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
wife of Joseph while in this
mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as
one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).

Pratt's statement is supported by one from Brigham Young: "The man Joseph, the
husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary
the wife of Joseph had another husband." (Deseret News, Oct. 10, 1866).

The same idea is repeated in "The Life and Teachings of Jesus", 1974, p. 29:
"Joseph was a mortal soul in premortality to be blessed with the signal honor
of coming to earth and acting as THE LEGAL GUARDIAN OF THE SON OF THE ETERNAL
FATHER IN THE FLESH."

And another statement from this same 1974 lesson manual, distributed to tens of
thousands of LDS Institute students: "She, (Mary), heavy with child, traveled
all that distance on mule-back, guarded and protected as one about to give
birth to A HALF-DEITY. No other man in the history of this world of ours has
ever had such an ancestry--God the Father on the one hand and Mary the Virgin
on the other."

I repeat a quote from Ezra Taft Benson from 1988, published while he was
president of the LDS church: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The
body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy
Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father." (Teachings of ET Benson, p. 6).

Someone wrote here on ARM that the idea of God having sex with Mary was
'repugnant', etc. When the entire scope of the theology is laid out, it should
not be repugnant to Mormons at all, as it ties in completely with the doctrines
of pre-existence, eternal marriage, deification, plural marriage, etc. With
the abundance of consistent statements on the subject, from a plethora of LDS
leaders over the years, it's difficult to dismiss the concept as mere
'speculation.' The quote from Harold B. Lee that someone
furnished is the only one I have seen saying that Mormons should not
'speculate' about it. Lee did not deny the concept; he merely advised not to
discuss it. And as I quote above, church-dispensed lesson manuals have taught
the same idea since Lee's 1972 death.

 

[Avatar4321]

Well, as I have said before, you are entitled to believe what you want. You and I understand the scriptures very differently. I am not here to try and convince you to believe my way.
But I have almost given up on your ability to listen properly. You still insist we believe God had sex with Mary. But even though I have already told you that is a lie, you are still insisting on it. I even showed you from the book of mormon where it proves it. You just are blind beyond belief. Or stubborn. Let's just go our separate ways cuz you and I won't get anywhere.

You can think I am going to hell and that's fine. We will see at the last day won't we?

They(LDS) change the definition of the word virgin. Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase "virgin birth" because God was an IMMORTAL being who had sex with Mary, not a mere mortal man. And this is exactly what Bruce McConkie, (top LSD theologian, and one of the Mormon 12 Apostles, died in 1985) said:

"For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).
In other words, if Joseph had sex with Mary she would not have been a virgin, but since God had sex with Mary, she remains a virgin.

By "Virgin birth", Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin!
**********
Here is the statement of BY's that JFS supports:
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
(JoD 1:50-51, also "Answers", vol. 5, p. 121).

To illustrate more clearly that BY meant that Christ's conception was actual
physical sex, here is another of his statements:
"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten
of his father, as we were of our fathers." (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).

Here are a few more quotes from the 1962 Gospel Doctrine Sunday School Lesson
Manual "Gospel Living in the Home," p. 16-17:
"Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily OFFSPRING; that
is to say, Elohim is LITERALLY the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and
also of the BODY in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh..."
(as quoted from 'The Articles of Faith' by James E. Talmage, p. 466).

"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?" (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep.
22, 1914).

"When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the
world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was
begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND
YOU AND ME." (as quoted from 'Discourses of Brigham Young," 1925 edition, p.
77).

"The Holy Ghost came upon Mary, her conception was under that influence, even
of the spirit of life; our Father in Heaven was the Father of the Son of
Mary....." (as quoted from Joseph Fielding Smith, 'Man: His Origin and
Destiny), p. 345.)

To allay any repugnancy from members on the idea of God having actual physical
relations with the human Mary, some leaders pitched the idea that Mary was one
of God's polygamous "celestial wives":

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have
been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right
to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
wife of Joseph while in this
mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as
one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).

Pratt's statement is supported by one from Brigham Young: "The man Joseph, the
husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary
the wife of Joseph had another husband." (Deseret News, Oct. 10, 1866).

The same idea is repeated in "The Life and Teachings of Jesus", 1974, p. 29:
"Joseph was a mortal soul in premortality to be blessed with the signal honor
of coming to earth and acting as THE LEGAL GUARDIAN OF THE SON OF THE ETERNAL
FATHER IN THE FLESH."

And another statement from this same 1974 lesson manual, distributed to tens of
thousands of LDS Institute students: "She, (Mary), heavy with child, traveled
all that distance on mule-back, guarded and protected as one about to give
birth to A HALF-DEITY. No other man in the history of this world of ours has
ever had such an ancestry--God the Father on the one hand and Mary the Virgin
on the other."

I repeat a quote from Ezra Taft Benson from 1988, published while he was
president of the LDS church: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The
body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy
Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father." (Teachings of ET Benson, p. 6).

Someone wrote here on ARM that the idea of God having sex with Mary was
'repugnant', etc. When the entire scope of the theology is laid out, it should
not be repugnant to Mormons at all, as it ties in completely with the doctrines
of pre-existence, eternal marriage, deification, plural marriage, etc. With
the abundance of consistent statements on the subject, from a plethora of LDS
leaders over the years, it's difficult to dismiss the concept as mere
'speculation.' The quote from Harold B. Lee that someone
furnished is the only one I have seen saying that Mormons should not
'speculate' about it. Lee did not deny the concept; he merely advised not to
discuss it. And as I quote above, church-dispensed lesson manuals have taught
the same idea since Lee's 1972 death.

I get it. You think that because we believe that Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, that means God had sex with Mary. Nevermind the testimonies of the virgin birth.

I was under the impression that all Christians were supposed to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Obviously, I was mistaken.

 

[Skeptik]

Well, as I have said before, you are entitled to believe what you want. You and I understand the scriptures very differently. I am not here to try and convince you to believe my way.
But I have almost given up on your ability to listen properly. You still insist we believe God had sex with Mary. But even though I have already told you that is a lie, you are still insisting on it. I even showed you from the book of mormon where it proves it. You just are blind beyond belief. Or stubborn. Let's just go our separate ways cuz you and I won't get anywhere.

You can think I am going to hell and that's fine. We will see at the last day won't we?

They(LDS) change the definition of the word virgin. Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase "virgin birth" because God was an IMMORTAL being who had sex with Mary, not a mere mortal man. And this is exactly what Bruce McConkie, (top LSD theologian, and one of the Mormon 12 Apostles, died in 1985) said:

"For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being" (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).
In other words, if Joseph had sex with Mary she would not have been a virgin, but since God had sex with Mary, she remains a virgin.

By "Virgin birth", Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin!
**********
Here is the statement of BY's that JFS supports:
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in
his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the
Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he (Christ) took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, AFTER THE SAME MANNER as
the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam
and Eve. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same
character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven."
(JoD 1:50-51, also "Answers", vol. 5, p. 121).

To illustrate more clearly that BY meant that Christ's conception was actual
physical sex, here is another of his statements:
"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it
was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten
of his father, as we were of our fathers." (JoD, vol. 8, p. 115).

Here are a few more quotes from the 1962 Gospel Doctrine Sunday School Lesson
Manual "Gospel Living in the Home," p. 16-17:
"Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily OFFSPRING; that
is to say, Elohim is LITERALLY the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and
also of the BODY in which Jesus Christ performed his mission in the flesh..."
(as quoted from 'The Articles of Faith' by James E. Talmage, p. 466).

"We are told in the scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of
God in the flesh....how are children begotten? I answer, just as Jesus was
begotten of his Father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was
begotten not of God, but of the spirit that overshadowed his mother. THIS IS
NONSENSE. Why will they not believe the Father when He says that Jesus Christ
is His Only Begotten Son? Why will they try to EXPLAIN THIS TRUTH AWAY and
make mystery of it?" (as quoted from Joseph F. Smith, 'Box Elder Times,' Sep.
22, 1914).

"When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the
world and take a tabernacle, the Father came himself and favored that Spirit
with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was
begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same being who is the Father of
our spirits, AND THAT IS ALL THE ORGANIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS CHRIST AND
YOU AND ME." (as quoted from 'Discourses of Brigham Young," 1925 edition, p.
77).

"The Holy Ghost came upon Mary, her conception was under that influence, even
of the spirit of life; our Father in Heaven was the Father of the Son of
Mary....." (as quoted from Joseph Fielding Smith, 'Man: His Origin and
Destiny), p. 345.)

To allay any repugnancy from members on the idea of God having actual physical
relations with the human Mary, some leaders pitched the idea that Mary was one
of God's polygamous "celestial wives":

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have
been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully........He had a lawful right
to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
Son.......Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
wife of Joseph while in this
mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as
one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).

Pratt's statement is supported by one from Brigham Young: "The man Joseph, the
husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary
the wife of Joseph had another husband." (Deseret News, Oct. 10, 1866).

The same idea is repeated in "The Life and Teachings of Jesus", 1974, p. 29:
"Joseph was a mortal soul in premortality to be blessed with the signal honor
of coming to earth and acting as THE LEGAL GUARDIAN OF THE SON OF THE ETERNAL
FATHER IN THE FLESH."

And another statement from this same 1974 lesson manual, distributed to tens of
thousands of LDS Institute students: "She, (Mary), heavy with child, traveled
all that distance on mule-back, guarded and protected as one about to give
birth to A HALF-DEITY. No other man in the history of this world of ours has
ever had such an ancestry--God the Father on the one hand and Mary the Virgin
on the other."

I repeat a quote from Ezra Taft Benson from 1988, published while he was
president of the LDS church: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The
body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy
Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father." (Teachings of ET Benson, p. 6).

Someone wrote here on ARM that the idea of God having sex with Mary was
'repugnant', etc. When the entire scope of the theology is laid out, it should
not be repugnant to Mormons at all, as it ties in completely with the doctrines
of pre-existence, eternal marriage, deification, plural marriage, etc. With
the abundance of consistent statements on the subject, from a plethora of LDS
leaders over the years, it's difficult to dismiss the concept as mere
'speculation.' The quote from Harold B. Lee that someone
furnished is the only one I have seen saying that Mormons should not
'speculate' about it. Lee did not deny the concept; he merely advised not to
discuss it. And as I quote above, church-dispensed lesson manuals have taught
the same idea since Lee's 1972 death.

I get it. You think that because we believe that Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, that means God had sex with Mary. Nevermind the testimonies of the virgin birth.

I was under the impression that all Christians were supposed to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Obviously, I was mistaken.

Don't they believe that we're all sons and daughters of god? Isn't that the rationale for the brotherhood of man philosophy?

 

[Eightball]

I get it. You think that because we believe that Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God, that means God had sex with Mary. Nevermind the testimonies of the virgin birth.

I was under the impression that all Christians were supposed to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Obviously, I was mistaken.

Did not say the typical or regular Mormon believes this; that the founding prophets did, and preached it. The foundational principles are not all taught or espoused, as they would scare folks away. Never the less, strange as they may be, this is what J.S. jr. and B. Y. believed, and they are your founding prophets.

Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie, in perhaps the most explicit denial of the virgin birth, wrote,

"Christ was Begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers." (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547)
You might ask, "How can Mormons who believe this say that Christ was born of a virgin?" This is done by changing the definition of the word "virgin". The virgin Mary did not have sexual relations with a mortal man, they say, but instead was impregnated by an immortal man. Bruce McConkie wrote,

"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father." (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p. 822)

When one considers that Mormonism teaches that every human born on earth is a literal spirit child of God, the concept that Jesus was conceived in a natural manner becomes even more blasphemous. Why? Because it means the Jesus of Mormonism was conceived in an incestuous union between Heavenly Father and his spirit-daughter Mary.

Mormons today are divided over this issue. While some deny that the traditional LDS concept of "virgin" is anything different than the traditional Christian understanding, others find it necessary to state that the Church takes no official position on the "mechanics" of the conception of Christ. Robert Millet, who is seen as the champion of progressive BYU neo-orthodoxy, writes:

"While Latter-day Saints clearly believe that Jesus is the Son of God the Father, there is no authoritative doctrinal statement within Mormonism that explains how the conception of Jesus was accomplished," (Another Jesus? The Christ of the Latter-day Saints, p. 74)

Others simply prefer the more traditional Mormon position. Kevin Barney, who is associated with the LDS group Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research, writes that he likes the idea of the sexual generation of Jesus. In a post titled, "The Sexual Geneatinon of Jesus", Kevin writes:

"My usual tack when asked about it is to point out that the idea is not now and never was doctrine; it was a speculation. It is not binding on anyone, and in fact my impression is that it has become very much a minority view in the Church, and that most Mormons do not accept this characterization of the physical generation of the mortal Jesus.

I will confess, however, that I actually like this idea. Maybe it is because I have a streak of old fashioned Mormonism somewhere inside me. But I find it appealing on several levels. First, there is a certain naturalism to the idea. I presume the mortal Jesus had 46 chromosomes, and that 23 came from Mary, but where did the other 23 come from? As a Mormon, I’m not big on the idea that they were created ex nihilo for this specific purpose. I like being able to say that Jesus really did have a father, not in a metaphorical sense only (the language of begetting in the creeds doesn’t mean literal begetting), but in a physical sense. He really was the Son of God.

I also find it fascinating that people see this idea as being so totally offensive. To me, that speaks not only to our radically different conception of God and man as being of the same species, our literalist notion of divine paternalism and our radical materialism, but also to our Puritan heritage. If it is so disgusting to suggest God sired a son by sexual intercourse, why, I wonder, did God ordain that to be the natural method by which we conceive our own children? Is that just some sort of a cosmic joke? Does God sit in yonder heavens and look down on his creatures and laugh at their disgusting and dirty and ridiculous actions? Isn’t it possible that, if God ordained sexual intercourse as the means by which we create children, that it is divinely appointed and not disgusting or dirty at all?

I freely concede that the old fashioned Mormon speculators didn’t think all the way through this idea, and there are theological loose ends, to be sure. But I am curious: does anyone else here kind of like this old notion, or is it Mormon materialism run amuck?"

 

[Avatar4321]

Did not say the typical or regular Mormon believes this; that the founding prophets did, and preached it. The foundational principles are not all taught or espoused, as they would scare folks away. Never the less, strange as they may be, this is what J.S. jr. and B. Y. believed, and they are your founding prophets.

And that would be an utter lie and you know it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Did not say the typical or regular Mormon believes this; that the founding prophets did, and preached it. The foundational principles are not all taught or espoused, as they would scare folks away. Never the less, strange as they may be, this is what J.S. jr. and B. Y. believed, and they are your founding prophets.

And that would be an utter lie and you know it.

It's funny how you copy and paste all these easily misunderstood statements from the past. Some of which are not considered doctrine. Prophets and apostles as we have stated for centuries now, are not infallible and have sometimes mispoken, such as the case with Parley P. Pratt's statement. Prophets are not beyond speculation and that is the reason why we have modern revelation, to clarify unrevealed truths from time to time.

Yes we do believe that Jesus is genetically and physically the son of God, but we do not believe God had sex with Mary.
He is the child of God by the power of the Holy Ghost. It wasn't a threesome and it wasn't intercourse. God used the power of the Holy Ghost to place the sperm inside the egg of Mary. Was God physically in the room when it happened? No.

That is why she remains a virgin.
Now please stop putting words in the mouths of the people who know better about our own religion than you do.
You are spending your time copying and pasting from the minds of who knows how many people who will stop at nothing until they can sink their teeth into the Prophet's neck. Why don't you get a life that involves being part of a cause rather than wasting your time trying to tear down someone elses cause. If you think we are wrong or heretical or whatever, why do you feel compelled to wage this battle against someone who is not even your opponent? I just don't get it.

IF THERE WAS EVER A STRAW MAN IT IS YOU.

 

[Eightball]

How About We Let Your Two Major "Straw Men" speak for themselves.

Joseph Smith

"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be God to you in His stead, and the elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it" (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pp 319-320).

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" (D.H C., vol. 6, p. 408-409).

"The whole Earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves for centuries, am impregnable ... I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth -- diamond truth; and God is my right hand man." (D.H.C., Vol. 6, p. 78).

"And I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, ..." (D.H C., vol. 5, p. 394). [This prophecy was made in May of 1843, and the United States government has not been overthrown and wasted.]

"Here then is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..." (Teachings of the Prophet, Joseph Smith, p. 346).

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Ibid., p. 349).

"The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead" [Our God of the Bible has forbidden us to have anything to do with the dead (Deut. 18:10,11).

Brigham Young

"I have never yet preached a sertuon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good a scripture" (Journa1 of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95; also see vol. 13, p. 264).

"I say, rather than the apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my Bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put on the line ... If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up], let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 83)

"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins ... This is loving our neighbor as ourselves, if he needs help, help him, and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 220). [Many were killed under what is called the "Blood Atonement Doctrine" Leaving Mormonism was one of the sins that the blood of Jesus could not atone for, and a person's own blood must be shed by Mormon priests as an atonement for sin.]

"I intend to meet them on their own grounds. ... and if any miserable scoundrel comes here, cut their throats." [And they obeyed; a wagon train of innocent men, women, and children were massacred at Mountain Meadows under the orders of Brigham Young. They were passing through Utah, and Brigham thought they were from Illinois where Joseph Smith had been killed. Many more were "atoned."]

"Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head or the wheat in the field; ..." (JOD., vol. 1, p. 219).

"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon? ... So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the Sun. Do you not think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No Question of it; it was not made in vain." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 219).

"Do you think we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principal of polygamy? If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269). [The Edmunds Act was passed in 1882 forbidding polygamy in the territory, and only then was Utah allowed to enter the Union. At that point the LDS church officially gave up polygamy. Another false prophecy from the Mormon prophet!]

"I think these preliminaries will satisfy me, and I feel prepared to take my text. It is the words of Jesus Christ, but where they are in the Bible I cannot tell you now, for I have not taken pains to look at them. I have had so much to do, that I have not read the Bible for many years. I used to read and study it, but did not understand the spirit and meaning of it ..." (1854 Conference discourse, October 8). [Brigham Young obviously did not understand the Bible, and neither do any of the other Mormon prophets!]

Meets the qualifications of a "Cult" in every way.

 

[Truthspeaker]

How About We Let Your Two Major "Straw Men" speak for themselves.

Joseph Smith

"God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me to be God to you in His stead, and the elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it" (Documentary History of the Church, vol. 6, pp 319-320).

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I" (D.H C., vol. 6, p. 408-409).

"The whole Earth shall bear me witness that I, like the towering rock in the midst of the ocean, which has withstood the mighty surges of the warring waves for centuries, am impregnable ... I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth -- diamond truth; and God is my right hand man." (D.H.C., Vol. 6, p. 78).

"And I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, ..." (D.H C., vol. 5, p. 394). [This prophecy was made in May of 1843, and the United States government has not been overthrown and wasted.]

"Here then is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..." (Teachings of the Prophet, Joseph Smith, p. 346).

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Ibid., p. 349).

"The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead" [Our God of the Bible has forbidden us to have anything to do with the dead (Deut. 18:10,11).

Brigham Young

"I have never yet preached a sertuon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good a scripture" (Journa1 of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95; also see vol. 13, p. 264).

"I say, rather than the apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my Bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put on the line ... If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up], let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 83)

"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins ... This is loving our neighbor as ourselves, if he needs help, help him, and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 220). [Many were killed under what is called the "Blood Atonement Doctrine" Leaving Mormonism was one of the sins that the blood of Jesus could not atone for, and a person's own blood must be shed by Mormon priests as an atonement for sin.]

"I intend to meet them on their own grounds. ... and if any miserable scoundrel comes here, cut their throats." [And they obeyed; a wagon train of innocent men, women, and children were massacred at Mountain Meadows under the orders of Brigham Young. They were passing through Utah, and Brigham thought they were from Illinois where Joseph Smith had been killed. Many more were "atoned."]

"Gold and silver grow, and so does every other kind of metal, the same as the hair upon my head or the wheat in the field; ..." (JOD., vol. 1, p. 219).

"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon? ... So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the Sun. Do you not think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No Question of it; it was not made in vain." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 219).

"Do you think we shall ever be admitted as a State into the Union without denying the principal of polygamy? If we are not admitted until then, we shall never be admitted." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, p. 269). [The Edmunds Act was passed in 1882 forbidding polygamy in the territory, and only then was Utah allowed to enter the Union. At that point the LDS church officially gave up polygamy. Another false prophecy from the Mormon prophet!]

"I think these preliminaries will satisfy me, and I feel prepared to take my text. It is the words of Jesus Christ, but where they are in the Bible I cannot tell you now, for I have not taken pains to look at them. I have had so much to do, that I have not read the Bible for many years. I used to read and study it, but did not understand the spirit and meaning of it ..." (1854 Conference discourse, October 8). [Brigham Young obviously did not understand the Bible, and neither do any of the other Mormon prophets!]

Meets the qualifications of a "Cult" in every way.

Hey Straw Guy, How many times do I have to tell you that you are taking things out of context. You don't bother reading what was said before and after those statements were made. You don't even know where those statements originate except for the copied and pasted versions of an anti-mormon website.
If you insist I tear these strawman ideas down as well, you will have to wait until I have time after work.

 

[Eightball]

Hey Straw Guy, How many times do I have to tell you that you are taking things out of context. You don't bother reading what was said before and after those statements were made. You don't even know where those statements originate except for the copied and pasted versions of an anti-mormon website.
If you insist I tear these strawman ideas down as well, you will have to wait until I have time after work.

Time is on my side, scripturally, isn't it?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Hey Straw Guy, How many times do I have to tell you that you are taking things out of context. You don't bother reading what was said before and after those statements were made. You don't even know where those statements originate except for the copied and pasted versions of an anti-mormon website.
If you insist I tear these strawman ideas down as well, you will have to wait until I have time after work.

Time is on my side, scripturally, isn't it?

You are such a loser that I am not going to waste my time repeating what I have said before.

 

[Skeptik]

Hey Straw Guy, How many times do I have to tell you that you are taking things out of context. You don't bother reading what was said before and after those statements were made. You don't even know where those statements originate except for the copied and pasted versions of an anti-mormon website.
If you insist I tear these strawman ideas down as well, you will have to wait until I have time after work.

Time is on my side, scripturally, isn't it?

You are such a loser that I am not going to waste my time repeating what I have said before.

 

[Valerie]

Time is on my side, scripturally, isn't it?

You are such a loser that I am not going to waste my time repeating what I have said before.

You liked that, huh? The Mormon calling the Christian a loser!




FTR, I'm behind the Eightball all the way!

 

[Truthspeaker]

You are such a loser that I am not going to waste my time repeating what I have said before.

You liked that, huh? The Mormon calling the Christian a loser!




FTR, I'm behind the Eightball all the way!

You can get behind who ever you want. That is your prerogotive. I really am not trying to persuade you my way. I just don't want 8-ball to spread more and more lies and half truths about us.
Oh and I wasn't calling 8-ball a name. He really is a loser because he lost in his attempt to destroy our church. It's a whole lot better than what he called me. "Cultist" "brainwashed" "un-Christian" and "satanic". Why are you pulling for him anyway? What questions do you have about what we believe and why don't you like us?

 

[Avatar4321]

How About We Let Your Two Major "Straw Men" speak for themselves.

Meets the qualifications of a "Cult" in every way.

What a surprise. Cant respond so you cut and paste something new and out of context.

How about you speak for yourself instead of stealing other peoples work?

 

[Eightball]

You liked that, huh? The Mormon calling the Christian a loser!




FTR, I'm behind the Eightball all the way!

You can get behind who ever you want. That is your prerogotive. I really am not trying to persuade you my way. I just don't want 8-ball to spread more and more lies and half truths about us.
Oh and I wasn't calling 8-ball a name. He really is a loser because he lost in his attempt to destroy our church. It's a whole lot better than what he called me. "Cultist" "brainwashed" "un-Christian" and "satanic". Why are you pulling for him anyway? What questions do you have about what we believe and why don't you like us?

Same old mantra........Mormons hated,,,,,,,,,Christians mean spirited.....

Can't you think for yourself, instead of repeating your church's stale, and overused defensive talking points?

I don't think Mormons have been burned at the stake, fed to lions, hung at witchcraft trials in Salem, Mass., been beheaded by Muslims, nor crucified........Peter was crucified upside down, Paul was beheaded by the Romans. All Apostles were martyred in the "true" sense of martyrdom, except for John who authored epistles, the book of John and Revelations.

Mormons created their own problems when they accused the Christian church in America of heresy.......That included all denominations and non-denominations. Your church attacked the validity of the Christian bible, taught your parishoners that it wasn't enough nor complete. You propagated polygamous marriages. You claimed that Jesus's "It is Finished!" on the cross was not enough in certain cases, and that blood had to be shed by mortal man against mortal man to atone for sins...........A most blasphemous teaching that attacks the very work of Christ upon Calvary's cross, His burial, His ressurrection. He wasn't called the Lamb of God by John the Baptist........who said He came to take away the sins of the world.......Your latter day prophets overlook totally John the Baptist's proclamation that Jesus completed the totaly work of atonement for mankind's sins.

There isn't any part or partialing of verses or quotes from your prophets..........that would change where they are coming from.

When you started this thread, under the guise that you wanted people to know about Mormonism, you wanted input or questions. That is the same approach that your elders, and missionarys use at our doorsteps. You want us to ask so you can tell..........It is a form of evangelism, and you are perfectly protected by the U.S. Constitution to do so. In fact I would put my life on the line for your church members or any belief system to protect their right to speak of or even evangelize in the name of their belief system/religion.

Now with that, do expect not only questions, but also expect critiques of your belief system, as the internet is filled with myriads or thousands of pages and web sites exposing or revealing the nature of your doctrines, the actually quotes from your BOM, and other allegedly divinely inspired books and articles.

Mormons for the most part were persecuted because they refuted the basic Judeau/Christian foundation of beliefs of the majority of American citizens back in the 19th and 20th century.

Just because articles come from many biblically or Christian oriented web sites does not mean that they are there in the spirit of hatred, unkindness, nor some plot to hurt a people.

Paul in the bible told every Christian to be on the watch-out for false teachers. Your Prophets go against much of biblical teaching in the N.T., and Paul would say to believers nowadays..........Look out.......

It is one thing to "Know about God", and another to "Know God".

Many and elder/bishop stake leader or higher in the LDS church has gotten down very pat, the kJ bible, and have been taught to refute Christians, and even those who are nominal in understanding of the Christian faith with pick and pull verse presentation.

To this day and time.......I've presented unrefutable verses that challenge the premises of the LDS churche's beliefs in being "The Church".

I have on numerous ocassions just posted Jesus' final words on the cross, "It is finished!"

Truth Speaker, what do you think He meant by that? Did He mean, I'm going to die? He said "It" is finished; not "I'm finished."; although in a certain way, that was true. His life was finished, for us, in totality, not in partial attonement.

I practically get bile in my throat to think that a group can call themselves Christian and deny the total atonement of Christ for all and every one of mankind's sins; past, present, and future.

Also, to teach that God was once a man of flesh as we are, and that we, mortals with finite minds, and creations of an infinite Creator, can assume the level or title of God, is both blasphemous, and insulting, and presumptuous.

I don't know if your parents were or are Mormons, but to break away from Mormonism is a brave, yet freeing experience.

There are so many strong biblical Christians that are ex-Mormons, that finally realized that they were held bondage within a belief system that was not Christian, nor biblical. Their love and prayers for their Mormon friends goes without saying. They have such burdens for their friends and relatives who cannot see or refuse to take a plunge of faith but remain because of fears of being shunned by relatives, friends, community, and even job discrimination where many Mormons hold high positions in companys.

Christians aren't Christians because Mom and Dad were Christians. It is a relationship with God, that was established Spiritually through faith in Christ's "completed" work at Golgotha.

Works: They are part and partial of the Christian life, but they follow salvation, and are not pre-requisite for salvation. God does the saving 100%, we just cooperate, through repentance, humility, humbleness, and a contrite heart, of realizing our sinful, lost condition(Romans 3:23), and God does the rest.

The Jew's Passover Lamb was the foreshadow of Christ, the ultimate Lamb of God, who was a Priest of sinless standing, who unlike the Levitical Aaronic Priesthood of the OT that required the Priest to offer a burnt offering for his own sins before offering a burnt offering for the people, offered Himself "once" and for all.
"It is finished" Mr. Smith Jr., what can you add to that statement by the Lamb of God? What doctrine or ordinances are necessary beyond what Christ has done for us, and through us by our faith in Him and His work?

There is no special priesthood in the Christian faith. There is no Aaronic, nor Melkisidek Priesthood...........All Christians are Royal Priests/Ambassadors of Christ. That is Paul's very words.

There is no hierarchy of believers in the Christian church. It is a level playing field. We are all Christians by receiving "unmerited" favor from God through His sacrificing His Son for us.

The last Prophet needed was John the Baptist.........He proclaimed and introduced in full, the ultimate Priest/Lamb of God.......the ultimate answer to man's anguish and wallowing in sin, and ultimate death in sin.

We don't need mysterious heiroglyphics that have never been recognized by experts as valid, nor do we need an additional gospel. The bible is clear and concise. For thousands of years, it has met man's deepest needs, hopes and aspirations. It has saved kings, peasants, middle class, convicts, teachers, doctors, truck drivers.........you name it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Same old mantra........Mormons hated,,,,,,,,,Christians mean spirited.....

Can't you think for yourself, instead of repeating your church's stale, and overused defensive talking points?It is decidedly unpopular to be a mormon right now and therefore it is a remarkable statement of ones ability to think FOR themselves to be a Mormon.

I don't think Mormons have been burned at the stake, fed to lions, hung at witchcraft trials in Salem, Mass., been beheaded by Muslims, nor crucifiedHow about shot, tarred and feathered, raped, trampled to death, brains stomped out, and yes lynched just like it were a witch hunt, and after some were buried, their bodies were dug up out of the ground, dismembered, mutilated and shot. These things were all done because of their testimony of Jesus.........Peter was crucified upside down, Paul was beheaded by the Romans. All Apostles were martyred in the "true" sense of martyrdom, except for John who authored epistles, the book of John and Revelations.

Mormons created their own problems when they accused the Christian church in America of heresyWhat a proposterous lie. No source for that whatsoever. Nowhere. Don't invent crap........That included all denominations and non-denominations. Your church attacked the validity of the Christian bibleNever attacked the validity of the Bible, another lie., taught your parishoners that it wasn't enough nor completeReading a book is not enough for salvation and history proves it is incomplete. See Nicean creed.. You propagated polygamous marriages.God did, not us. See Abraham etc. You claimed that Jesus's "It is Finished!" on the cross was not enough in certain cases, and that blood had to be shed by mortal man against mortal man to atone for sinsWe always preached it is enough for the penitent man. And for this we received the said atrocities from people like you............A most blasphemous teaching that attacks the very work of Christ upon Calvary's cross, His burial, His ressurrection. He wasn't called the Lamb of God by John the Baptist........who said He came to take away the sins of the world.......Your latter day prophets overlook totally John the Baptist's proclamation that Jesus completed the totaly work of atonement for mankind's sins.Uh.... That is just the stupidest thing I've ever heard:"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,


"We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles--that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come" ("The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles," 1 Jan. 2000).

There isn't any part or partialing of verses or quotes from your prophets..........that would change where they are coming from.see above

When you started this thread, under the guise that you wanted people to know about Mormonism, you wanted input or questions. That is the same approach that your elders, and missionarys use at our doorsteps. You want us to ask so you can tell..........It is a form of evangelism, and you are perfectly protected by the U.S. Constitution to do so. In fact I would put my life on the line for your church members or any belief system to protect their right to speak of or even evangelize in the name of their belief system/religion.

Now with that, do expect not only questions, but also expect critiques Look man I accept that. Just make your critiques honest ones and not viscious ones that are based on darkness and bias.of your belief system, as the internet is filled with myriads or thousands of pages and web sites supposedlyexposing or revealing the nature of your doctrines, the actually quotes from your BOM, and other allegedly divinely inspired books and articles.You still haven't shown me anything from the BOM or any other article of scripture that puts us down even according to your wild interpretations.

Mormons for the most part were persecuted because they refuted the basic Judeau/Christian foundation of beliefs of the majority of American citizens back in the 19th and 20th century.And How!

Just because articles come from many biblically or Christian oriented web sites does not mean that they are there in the spirit of hatred, unkindness, nor some plot to hurt a people. I am sure those anti mormon sites are just bursting with kind feelings toward us.

Paul in the bible told every Christian to be on the watch-out for false teachers. Your Prophets go against much of biblical teaching in the N.T., and Paul would say to believers nowadays..........Look out.......

It is one thing to "Know about God", and another to "Know God"Truer words were never spoken.

Many and elder/bishop stake leader or higher in the LDS church has gotten down very pat, the kJ bible, and have been taught to refute Christians, and even those who are nominal in understanding of the Christian faith with pick and pull verse presentation.

To this day and time.......I've presented unrefutable verses that challenge the premises of the LDS churche's beliefs in being "The Church".

I have on numerous ocassions just posted Jesus' final words on the cross, "It is finished!"

Truth Speaker, what do you think He meant by that? He meant his earthly mission was finished and that the atonement could be fulfilled and resurrection could begin happening. That is why many saints arose from the dead. No one else could rise until Jesus had done it. He was the firstfruits unto God. Then that ushered in the door for ancients and eventually us. Did He mean, I'm going to die? He said "It" is finished; not "I'm finished."; although in a certain way, that was true. His life was finished, for us, in totality, not in partial attonement.

I practically get bile in my throat to think that a group can call themselves Christian and deny the total atonement of Christ for all and every one of mankind's sins; past, present, and future.Me too. I don't know why a Christian would do such a thing. I certainly don't

Also, to teach that God was once a man of flesh as we are, and that we, mortals with finite minds, and creations of an infinite Creator, can assume the level or title of God, is both blasphemous, and insulting, and presumptuous.Not such a big deal when you start to gain an eternal perspective of things. Why do you care anyway if he had a body or not? You act like the body is such a bad thing. That is the main reason why he and we all are better than Satan and his angels, because we have a body and he does not. That is why Satan is always trying to get one!!!

I don't know if your parents were or are Mormons, but to break away from Mormonism is a brave, yet freeing experience.
On the contrary, I have never been freer because of the knowledge I have gained that has set me free from speculation and spiritual blindness which you suffer from.

There are so many strong biblical Christians that are ex-MormonsThat's rich.

There never was a weaker type of person than an ex-mormon. It seems every anti-mormon came from our fold and has nothing else to do with their life except fight against us. What kind of life is that. Their cause is to destroy a cause instead of getting one of their own., that finally realized that they were held bondage within a belief system that was not Christian, nor biblical. Their love and prayers for their Mormon friends goes without sayingYou trust me on one thing if you ever would on anything, they ain't praying for us, not one word. If they are doing any praying at all it ain't for us.. They have such burdens for their friends and relatives who cannot see or refuse to take a plunge of faith but remain because of fears of being shunned by relatives, friends, community, and even job discrimination where many Mormons hold high positions in companys.

Christians aren't Christians because Mom and Dad were Christians. It is a relationship with God, that was established Spiritually through faith in Christ's "completed" work at Golgotha.

Works: They are part and partial of the Christian life, but they follow salvation, and are not pre-requisite for salvation. God does the saving 100%, we just cooperate, through repentance, humility, humbleness, and a contrite heart, of realizing our sinful, lost conditionContrarian statement. If he did all the work, we don't need to do any of that good stuff. You have been saying that all along.(Romans 3:23), and God does the restuh... that's what I have been saying all along..

The Jew's Passover Lamb was the foreshadow of Christ, the ultimate Lamb of GodTrue, who was a Priest of sinless standing, who unlike the Levitical Aaronic Priesthood of the OT that required the Priest to offer a burnt offering for his own sins before offering a burnt offering for the people, offered Himself "once" and for all.
"It is finished" Mr. Smith Jr.Mr. Smith replies"Dude, you are preaching to the choir., what can you add to that statement by the Lamb of God? What doctrine or ordinances are necessary beyond what Christ has done for us, and through us by our faith in Him and His work?

There is no special priesthood in the Christian faith. There is no Aaronic, nor Melkisidek Priesthood...........All Christians are Royal Priests/Ambassadors of Christ. That is Paul's very words.

There is no hierarchy of believers in the Christian church. It is a level playing field. We are all Christians by receiving "unmerited" favor from God through His sacrificing His Son for us.

The last Prophet needed was John the BaptistJesus was a prophet. According to John the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy Joseph had this testimony, I have it as well. You can't say there will not be more prophets to come. Not only do you not know God, you do not really know of his ways either..........He proclaimed and introduced in full, the ultimate Priest/Lamb of God.......the ultimate answer to man's anguish and wallowing in sin, and ultimate death in sin.

We don't need mysterious heiroglyphics that have never been recognized by experts as validHow about heiroglyphs that have :Maya script - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, nor do we need an additional gospel. The bible is clear and conciseOnly to those who have been guided by the spirit. Unlike you.. For thousands of years, it has met man's deepest needs, hopes and aspirations. It has saved kings, peasants, middle class, convicts, teachers, doctors, truck drivers.........you name it.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your inspirational message. Now why do you insist on trying to convince me to think your way. It's not going to work. Like I have said countless times, you and i see the scriptures very differently. Stop trying to butt heads with me please.

 

[Skeptik]

You are such a loser that I am not going to waste my time repeating what I have said before.

You liked that, huh? The Mormon calling the Christian a loser!




FTR, I'm behind the Eightball all the way!

Well, if you like the idea of finding biased websites, then cutting and pasting, sure, get behind the eightball. That's where that type of "discussion" will get you anyway.

 

[Truthspeaker]

That was nice and quippy. I liked it.