Transgender 1st Grader Wins Civil Rights Case...

[Gadawg73]

Whether or not someone chooses to be gay does not prove whether they are 'born that way' or not. It could have to do with upbringing/environment as well.

I had a hard upbringing and that never influenced me on my sexual orientation.
NO ONE sits down and chooses their sexuality.
Did you?
If you did how long did you contemplate cock?
You do know that choice means you CONTEMPLATED ALL YOUR OPTIONS before you chose.
What was the determiner of your choice of cock or snatch?

Perhaps if you were less of a reactionary idiot about this, you'd see that I never said it was a choice. What I said was that someone who does not choose to be gay was not necessarily born that way, either. Environment may play a part in the development of their sexual orientation.

Also, QW provided a link to Cynthia Nixon saying that her being gay is a choice. Within that article were links to others which showed multiple people claiming their gayness was a choice, as well as an article which said that there is research showing that women's sexual identity can be fluid and changeable over the course of their lives.

It may well be that most gay people are born that way, but it is by no means settled science. More, the entire issue is too often viewed as simply black and white, while it likely has many shades of grey.

"does not choose to be gay"
and you call me the idiot.
Cynthia Nixon is BISEXUAL and she says she was BORN that way. Bisexual folk have ALL the choices so her stating at some time in her life she has "chosen" to be gay that is because she has been involved in ALL the choices.
Not the same as a homosexual or transgender folk that claim they were born that way..
Good try.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Every gay and transgender folk I have ever met told me they were born that way.
Not opinion, that is what I have been told.
BY ALL OF THEM.
Well, not all of them because most of them I never asked and they never offered but everyone that I did ask they said they were born that way.
Please show me the gay person that did not want to be gay and only chose it because no one explained to them what being straight was.
Where is that person? If you can show me one that says that then you will have some evidence other than your opinion.
I could produce millions if I had to and you know it.
Gay and transgender folk do not choose who they are.
You know that and if you don't then you are a bull shitter.

Whether or not someone chooses to be gay does not prove whether they are 'born that way' or not. It could have to do with upbringing/environment as well.

I had a hard upbringing and that never influenced me on my sexual orientation.
NO ONE sits down and chooses their sexuality.
Did you?
If you did how long did you contemplate cock?
You do know that choice means you CONTEMPLATED ALL YOUR OPTIONS before you chose.
What was the determiner of your choice of cock or snatch?

Prove that no one chooses their sexuality.

While you are at it, prove that sexuality is determined by genetics despite the fact that there is conclusive scientific evidence that it isn't.

That should get you a Nobel Prize in something, and conclusively end the debate.

Alternatively, you can remain the close minded bigot your old age has turned you into and declare everyone who relies on actual science an idiot.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Gadawg73 Wrote:

I do not spread psycho babble "from a child psychology perspective" opinions like the previous poster does.

I'm not quite sure why my question:

Since kids, as they grow up, are developing their gender and sexual identities...I wonder what telling/encouraging a very young child that they are a girl when physically they are a boy will do to them...especially if that child hits puberty and decides that they are really a boy after all?

is so upsetting to you...but I can't let you just deny reality because you've decided not to like it, or the way I have phrased it. It simply isn't "psycho-babble" to state that children go through stages of development as they become adults. Its called child development...if you don't like my "credentials," thats fine. Go to Amazon, or a parenting site, even, for a very basic rundown of how young children develop. Look up child sexual development - and at some point you will see discussions of how learning about gender roles and sexuality happens at a very young age and continues through adulthood.

What parent told Coy he was a girl and which one encouraged him to be a girl?
Looks to me they are just accepting they Coy wants to be a girl.
I raised 3 children of my own and each one never had to be taught their gender role.
No offense but if you want to raise your kids from a book that is fine with me.
I don't and didn't and all 3 of mine are grown productive, educated and working citizens.

You live in a universe where politics trumps science.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Whether or not someone chooses to be gay does not prove whether they are 'born that way' or not. It could have to do with upbringing/environment as well.

I had a hard upbringing and that never influenced me on my sexual orientation.
NO ONE sits down and chooses their sexuality.
Did you?
If you did how long did you contemplate cock?
You do know that choice means you CONTEMPLATED ALL YOUR OPTIONS before you chose.
What was the determiner of your choice of cock or snatch?

Perhaps if you were less of a reactionary idiot about this, you'd see that I never said it was a choice. What I said was that someone who does not choose to be gay was not necessarily born that way, either. Environment may play a part in the development of their sexual orientation.

Also, QW provided a link to Cynthia Nixon saying that her being gay is a choice. Within that article were links to others which showed multiple people claiming their gayness was a choice, as well as an article which said that there is research showing that women's sexual identity can be fluid and changeable over the course of their lives.

It may well be that most gay people are born that way, but it is by no means settled science. More, the entire issue is too often viewed as simply black and white, while it likely has many shades of grey.

The only thing I can say is black and white about the issue is that genetics is not the deciding factor in sexual preference. I personally believe it is a choice, but am quite willing to admit I cannot prove it, anymore than I can prove people have free will. The real problem here is that, even though they cannot prove me wrong, some people insist that I am, and refuse to examine the evidence.

 

[Montrovant]

I had a hard upbringing and that never influenced me on my sexual orientation.
NO ONE sits down and chooses their sexuality.
Did you?
If you did how long did you contemplate cock?
You do know that choice means you CONTEMPLATED ALL YOUR OPTIONS before you chose.
What was the determiner of your choice of cock or snatch?

Perhaps if you were less of a reactionary idiot about this, you'd see that I never said it was a choice. What I said was that someone who does not choose to be gay was not necessarily born that way, either. Environment may play a part in the development of their sexual orientation.

Also, QW provided a link to Cynthia Nixon saying that her being gay is a choice. Within that article were links to others which showed multiple people claiming their gayness was a choice, as well as an article which said that there is research showing that women's sexual identity can be fluid and changeable over the course of their lives.

It may well be that most gay people are born that way, but it is by no means settled science. More, the entire issue is too often viewed as simply black and white, while it likely has many shades of grey.

"does not choose to be gay"
and you call me the idiot.
Cynthia Nixon is BISEXUAL and she says she was BORN that way. Bisexual folk have ALL the choices so her stating at some time in her life she has "chosen" to be gay that is because she has been involved in ALL the choices.
Not the same as a homosexual or transgender folk that claim they were born that way..
Good try.

Let me try again. It is possible to be gay without being born that way, but with it not being a choice, either. Your upbringing and environment can have an effect, as well as any genetic predispositions.

I think it is probably extremely rare that anyone makes a conscious decision to be gay or straight. However, there is no reason I have seen to assume that people cannot change sexuality over the course of their lives, or that all gays were born that way without any need for environment factors.

The article quotes Cynthia Nixon as saying she is gay, and that she chooses to be. Others have apparently said the same. They may be lying, or wrong, but it is an example of why this issue is not the all or nothing one that it becomes when the idea of 'born that way' is pushed so strongly.

I also mentioned an article which claimed research has shown women tend to be fluid in their sexuality over the course of their lives; that they can change their orientation. Not that they are bisexual, but that they can actually go from heterosexual to homosexual and back again over the course of a lifetime.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers. I simply don't like people assuming they do have the answers without providing any strong evidence for it.

Personally, I think sexuality is probably more of a sliding scale then an either or. Heterosexuality on one side, homosexuality on the other, and most people go somewhere in between. And for some people, they simply jump off the scale entirely.

I'm sorry about the idiot comment, that was rude. This argument got me annoyed. There just seems to be too much surety from people about what human sexuality entails when it seems to me to be still a very unknown part of our personalities.

 

[Gadawg73]

Gadawg73 Wrote:
I'm not quite sure why my question:

Since kids, as they grow up, are developing their gender and sexual identities...I wonder what telling/encouraging a very young child that they are a girl when physically they are a boy will do to them...especially if that child hits puberty and decides that they are really a boy after all?

is so upsetting to you...but I can't let you just deny reality because you've decided not to like it, or the way I have phrased it. It simply isn't "psycho-babble" to state that children go through stages of development as they become adults. Its called child development...if you don't like my "credentials," thats fine. Go to Amazon, or a parenting site, even, for a very basic rundown of how young children develop. Look up child sexual development - and at some point you will see discussions of how learning about gender roles and sexuality happens at a very young age and continues through adulthood.

What parent told Coy he was a girl and which one encouraged him to be a girl?
Looks to me they are just accepting they Coy wants to be a girl.
I raised 3 children of my own and each one never had to be taught their gender role.
No offense but if you want to raise your kids from a book that is fine with me.
I don't and didn't and all 3 of mine are grown productive, educated and working citizens.

You live in a universe where politics trumps science.

You are bat shit crazy.
This subject HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS.

YOU are the one throwing politics into it Moe. Not me. I have not made any political comments here as none apply. You have with absurd claims that everyone that disagrees with your spoiled ass is a progressive liberal. That is speaking politics and that would be YOU.
I give you a pass though as I know you can't help yourself.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What parent told Coy he was a girl and which one encouraged him to be a girl?
Looks to me they are just accepting they Coy wants to be a girl.
I raised 3 children of my own and each one never had to be taught their gender role.
No offense but if you want to raise your kids from a book that is fine with me.
I don't and didn't and all 3 of mine are grown productive, educated and working citizens.

You live in a universe where politics trumps science.

You are bat shit crazy.
This subject HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS.

YOU are the one throwing politics into it Moe. Not me. I have not made any political comments here as none apply. You have with absurd claims that everyone that disagrees with your spoiled ass is a progressive liberal. That is speaking politics and that would be YOU.
I give you a pass though as I know you can't help yourself.

What the fuck? You made it about politics when you claimed people were born with their sexual preferences coded into their brains, or whatever it is you think controls people.

Science asks questions, and comes up with answers. The one irrefutable fact is that sexual preferences are not genetic, beyond that science has nothing but questions.

I never said you were a progressive liberal, I said you are a big government progressive. You believe that the government should be able to tell parents who have objections to boys using the girls bathroom to fuck off. You pretend this makes you a small government conservative because, in your warped logic, small government conservatives want the government to force people into a new societal norm.

We don't, we want the government to leave people alone.

You demanded I provide one example of anyone who says they chose their sexual preferences, I did, yet you still insist that you are right, and that everyone is lying. Is that because you think that, if people actually chose this, they don't have any rights? Are you going to claim people who choose to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster don't have any rights to meet and and eat spaghetti next?

Ask yourself a question, what difference does it make if it is a choice or not? Does your willingness to support gays hinge on them not having a choice?

The strangest thing is that there are actually gay people who agree with me, and are insulted by assholes who insist they do not have a choice.

Queer by Choice Links

Nothing in science proves that it is, or is not, a choice. Anything other than "I don't know" is either an opinion, like it is with me, or a political statement, like it is with LGBT activists. You actually come across as a progressive conservative, not a progressive liberal.

 

[Noomi]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

 

[Montrovant]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

And you are an authority on this because......

I tend to agree that conscious choosing of a person's orientation, if it happens, is probably very rare. I don't understand why there is such absolute certainty from many people that they know how sexual orientation works for everyone, though.

 

[Gadawg73]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

And you are an authority on this because......

I tend to agree that conscious choosing of a person's orientation, if it happens, is probably very rare. I don't understand why there is such absolute certainty from many people that they know how sexual orientation works for everyone, though.

I can agree with that.
But I would bet that it is less than 1% that choose their sexual orientation.
NO one chooses to be persecuted, labeled as perverts and worse and be treated as 2nd class citizens if they are attracted to the other sex.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

Prove it with hard scientific data or admit that that you cannot prove it because you have no conclusive evidence.

Please note, if people saying something counts as hard evidence I can prove God exists and that miracles occur everyday. All I am asking is that you apply the same standards to claims about choice, or the lack thereof, that you do to the existence of God.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

And you are an authority on this because......

I tend to agree that conscious choosing of a person's orientation, if it happens, is probably very rare. I don't understand why there is such absolute certainty from many people that they know how sexual orientation works for everyone, though.

I can agree with that.
But I would bet that it is less than 1% that choose their sexual orientation.
NO one chooses to be persecuted, labeled as perverts and worse and be treated as 2nd class citizens if they are attracted to the other sex.

If it wouldn't get me banned I could prove that you are wrong about that. Why don't you just accept the fact that, just because you are ignorant, that does not mean the world revolves around your experience.

 

[mal]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

Humans are the only creatures on Earth that Fuck their Dead...

Is that a Choice or are they Oriented that way?...



peace...

 

[Montrovant]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

And you are an authority on this because......

I tend to agree that conscious choosing of a person's orientation, if it happens, is probably very rare. I don't understand why there is such absolute certainty from many people that they know how sexual orientation works for everyone, though.

I can agree with that.
But I would bet that it is less than 1% that choose their sexual orientation.
NO one chooses to be persecuted, labeled as perverts and worse and be treated as 2nd class citizens if they are attracted to the other sex.

I absolutely disagree.

People do all sorts of things which are obviously conscious decisions which get them persecuted, labeled as perverts or worse and treated as second class citizens. Body piercings, tattoos, even just modes of dress, when taken to extremes, will cause persecution and labeling, yet there are quite a few people who do them anyway. Some people either don't think of the consequences, don't care about those consequences, or actually desire them.

I agree that it's not the most common thing, but plenty of people do all sorts of things which can get them persecuted or labeled. That is not a valid argument against sexual orientation as a choice.

 

[Gadawg73]

And you are an authority on this because......

I tend to agree that conscious choosing of a person's orientation, if it happens, is probably very rare. I don't understand why there is such absolute certainty from many people that they know how sexual orientation works for everyone, though.

I can agree with that.
But I would bet that it is less than 1% that choose their sexual orientation.
NO one chooses to be persecuted, labeled as perverts and worse and be treated as 2nd class citizens if they are attracted to the other sex.

I absolutely disagree.

People do all sorts of things which are obviously conscious decisions which get them persecuted, labeled as perverts or worse and treated as second class citizens. Body piercings, tattoos, even just modes of dress, when taken to extremes, will cause persecution and labeling, yet there are quite a few people who do them anyway. Some people either don't think of the consequences, don't care about those consequences, or actually desire them.

I agree that it's not the most common thing, but plenty of people do all sorts of things which can get them persecuted or labeled. That is not a valid argument against sexual orientation as a choice.

Someone with a tatoo is a pervert?
You compare tatoos and body piercings with homosexuality in how those folks are individually and selectively persecuted?
You believe someone that chooses to get a tattoo is treated the same in society as gay and transgender folk are treated?
You are out of your damn mind. Gay and transgender folks have centuries of discrimination and persecution against them. When were tattooed folk ever banned from joining the military?

 

[Gadawg73]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

Humans are the only creatures on Earth that Fuck their Dead...

Is that a Choice or are they Oriented that way?...



peace...

How long did it take you to get your nut when you fucked your dead?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I can agree with that.
But I would bet that it is less than 1% that choose their sexual orientation.
NO one chooses to be persecuted, labeled as perverts and worse and be treated as 2nd class citizens if they are attracted to the other sex.

I absolutely disagree.

People do all sorts of things which are obviously conscious decisions which get them persecuted, labeled as perverts or worse and treated as second class citizens. Body piercings, tattoos, even just modes of dress, when taken to extremes, will cause persecution and labeling, yet there are quite a few people who do them anyway. Some people either don't think of the consequences, don't care about those consequences, or actually desire them.

I agree that it's not the most common thing, but plenty of people do all sorts of things which can get them persecuted or labeled. That is not a valid argument against sexual orientation as a choice.

Someone with a tatoo is a pervert?
You compare tatoos and body piercings with homosexuality in how those folks are individually and selectively persecuted?
You believe someone that chooses to get a tattoo is treated the same in society as gay and transgender folk are treated?
You are out of your damn mind. Gay and transgender folks have centuries of discrimination and persecution against them. When were tattooed folk ever banned from joining the military?

People were literally tortured, and killed, because they refused to say something that conflicted with their religion. According to you no one would chose that unless they were born that way. Are people born Christians? Muslim?

 

[Montrovant]

I can agree with that.
But I would bet that it is less than 1% that choose their sexual orientation.
NO one chooses to be persecuted, labeled as perverts and worse and be treated as 2nd class citizens if they are attracted to the other sex.

I absolutely disagree.

People do all sorts of things which are obviously conscious decisions which get them persecuted, labeled as perverts or worse and treated as second class citizens. Body piercings, tattoos, even just modes of dress, when taken to extremes, will cause persecution and labeling, yet there are quite a few people who do them anyway. Some people either don't think of the consequences, don't care about those consequences, or actually desire them.

I agree that it's not the most common thing, but plenty of people do all sorts of things which can get them persecuted or labeled. That is not a valid argument against sexual orientation as a choice.

Someone with a tatoo is a pervert?
You compare tatoos and body piercings with homosexuality in how those folks are individually and selectively persecuted?
You believe someone that chooses to get a tattoo is treated the same in society as gay and transgender folk are treated?
You are out of your damn mind. Gay and transgender folks have centuries of discrimination and persecution against them. When were tattooed folk ever banned from joining the military?

Holy crap, maybe I shouldn't have apologized for my earlier rudeness.

Did you miss the part where I said 'taken to extremes'? Have you ever seen someone with extreme tattoo work done? Yes, that will get them persecution, labeling, and shunned. I didn't say having the name of your girlfriend on a shoulder or a tribal pattern around an ankle, I said TAKEN TO EXTREMES. Someone who tattoos 90% of their body. Someone with tattoos of sexual acts prominently displayed. Someone who tattoos their face to resemble an animal. Do you see what I'm getting at yet?

And that doesn't speak to people who do other things, or have sexual fetishes or tastes that they are willing to proclaim proudly and which will get them persecuted. It's not exactly the same as what gays experience, but the principle still stands.

I wasn't trying to get into some kind of pissing contest about who has suffered the most. I was simply pointing out that people have made conscious choices to do various things which can and have brought them persecution and labeling. That speaks directly to your argument that NO ONE would ever choose to be gay because of the persecution and labeling they will suffer. Some people could choose to be gay, not realizing just what the consequences will be. Some people could actually be looking for those kinds of consequences; if you don't think some people seek out persecution and labeling, you are fooling yourself. And some people could simply not care.

You made a statement that no one chooses to be persecuted, labeled and treated as a second class citizen by being gay. I gave clear examples of people choosing to do things which can lead to those same consequences. They may not all reach the same level of suffering as gays have experienced; then again, not all gays are going to experience the same level of suffering because of their orientation, either. You didn't specify just what level of suffering is needed to fit your criteria.

You seem determined not to accept any argument or evidence that doesn't fit your already determined conclusions.

 

[Noomi]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

Prove it with hard scientific data or admit that that you cannot prove it because you have no conclusive evidence.

Please note, if people saying something counts as hard evidence I can prove God exists and that miracles occur everyday. All I am asking is that you apply the same standards to claims about choice, or the lack thereof, that you do to the existence of God.

I don't need to prove it. I am proof and you are proof - you never chose your attraction to women, did you? It was something that was always there, that came naturally. Same with genuine homosexuals. Their orientation is as much a part of them as their hair or eye color.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

^those people didn't choose to be gay. They choose to have sex with people of the same sex, but they didn't choose their orientation. No one does. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

Prove it with hard scientific data or admit that that you cannot prove it because you have no conclusive evidence.

Please note, if people saying something counts as hard evidence I can prove God exists and that miracles occur everyday. All I am asking is that you apply the same standards to claims about choice, or the lack thereof, that you do to the existence of God.

I don't need to prove it. I am proof and you are proof - you never chose your attraction to women, did you? It was something that was always there, that came naturally. Same with genuine homosexuals. Their orientation is as much a part of them as their hair or eye color.

True.

One is not required to ‘prove’ his sexual orientation is ‘naturally occurring,’ as he is free to chose to live his life as he sees fit, unfettered by social or governmental dictates.