What does the "far left" want for America?

[initforme]

"another leftist w/o the balls to post what they want.

I'm shocked i tell you, shocked"

Well I owned my own construction business for 27 years. I am a white, heterosexual male. I voted GOP for the past 50 years. Now I will abstain. One less vote for the republicans as they are not the party I once voted for. I will also refrain from voting this fall in the governors election. They have been taken over by those who are anti middle class and cater to big business at all costs. That good enough for you. I'm 76 and retired for many years. And yes class warfare is acceptable. Its important. I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

 

[kaz]

"another leftist w/o the balls to post what they want.

I'm shocked i tell you, shocked"

Well I owned my own construction business for 27 years. I am a white, heterosexual male. I voted GOP for the past 50 years. Now I will abstain. One less vote for the republicans as they are not the party I once voted for. I will also refrain from voting this fall in the governors election. They have been taken over by those who are anti middle class and cater to big business at all costs. That good enough for you. I'm 76 and retired for many years. And yes class warfare is acceptable. Its important. I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

Another Marxist who always voted for the GOP and isn't anymore because they aren't Marxists! If I had a dime for every poster who made that lame claim on this board...

 

[francoHFW]

OP- Truth in reporting from the RW? Not calling centrists "far left"? GOP returning to planet Earth? End of greedy rich idiots wrecking the country? Yup.

 

[Boss]

What does the far right want? OF course besides defending the3 uber wealthy. :Class warfare should be alive and well with any middle class person with half a brain.

Okay... Try to use that thing between your ears called a BRAIN... Why would average people simply want to take up for wealthy people? Are we hoping the wealthy people will feel a sense of generosity because of our efforts? Well, so far I haven't received any rewards. Has anyone else on the right gotten your check from The Rich for defending them? No? Really? I'm shocked! (not)

So what you are saying doesn't even make any sense. It's just that, you've got this perfectly good War on the Rich going, and the 'stupid dullards' on the right won't join your efforts to crucify them, so you create these imaginary excuses to explain it. Let me help you out...

People who have a lot of money, mostly have it invested or socked away somewhere earning interest. It's not really taxable income because it's not earned income, it was already taxed when it was earned. These people are perfectly content with leaving their money right where it is and living lives of luxury from here on out. They don't need to earn any more income, they are wealthy already. You and I need to earn income to pay bills and whatnot. Now, the way we earn income is through a thing called a JOB. So where do these come from? They come from capitalists who are attempting to make profits. Generally speaking, the more wealthy the capitalist, the more JOBS they create.

When you adopt policies that punish the capitalist or restrict his ability to earn a profit, then he responds by eliminating JOBS, closing up shop, then investing his fortunes in securities and bonds like the rest of the wealthy. When you jack up the income tax rate on these wealthy people, it's just more incentive for them to keep their money where it is and not use it to create more income.

But now... What WE favor is, easing the burdens and restrictions a bit, so that capitalists are motivated to do what they do best, and wealthy people are encouraged to take that money out of the mattress and create new business ventures. Of course, they are naturally going to make more money and profit, but in the process, so are we. They are going to create all sorts of new jobs for us to do. The more money they make, the more taxes they pay, and the more JOBS they create, the more taxes we'll pay as well. This creates a windfall of new tax revenue, which we can spend to upgrade education, provide for our veterans, allocate money for student loans, provide economic investment opportunities for minorities and such.

So that's the difference. We aren't "defending the rich" for any other reason than "the rich" is who you're attacking and it's to the detriment of our economy and prosperity. On a side note.... We do not have "classes" in America. Our nation is founded on the principle that ALL men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights. We ALL have the same opportunity to become as successfully rich as we want to be in America and we are NOT confined to a certain "class" by virtue of our ruling government. Such was the case in much of 19th century Europe, where there was no constitutional republic, only totalitarian rulers and kings, and the "class" or status of the people was unchangeable. You were either born into privilege and part of the ruling class, or you were a peasant. Our nation changed all that and implemented a system where even the poorest little abused black girl in a tar shack of rural Mississippi could rise up to become the wealthiest woman in America.

 

[kaz]

Not calling centrists "far left"?

That's because you call the far left "centrists"

 

[Rikurzhen]

When you adopt policies that punish the capitalist or restrict his ability to earn a profit, then he responds by eliminating JOBS, closing up shop, then investing his fortunes in securities and bonds like the rest of the wealthy. When you jack up the income tax rate on these wealthy people, it's just more incentive for them to keep their money where it is and not use it to create more income.

But now... What WE favor is, easing the burdens and restrictions a bit, so that capitalists are motivated to do what they do best, and wealthy people are encouraged to take that money out of the mattress and create new business ventures. Of course, they are naturally going to make more money and profit, but in the process, so are we. They are going to create all sorts of new jobs for us to do. The more money they make, the more taxes they pay, and the more JOBS they create, the more taxes we'll pay as well. This creates a windfall of new tax revenue, which we can spend to upgrade education, provide for our veterans, allocate money for student loans, provide economic investment opportunities for minorities and such.

And you know who is being protected by your defense of this idealism, the rent-seekers and the elite.

Your definition should include health insurance companies and medical device companies. They innovate, they deliver a product and their success is determined by the market. The losers go bankrupt and the winners are rewarded for their innovation. And then the Democrats start talking about expanding the health insurance market by making it mandatory for everyone and government subsidizing people and all of these companies threw their lot in with the big government folks because it was easier to earn profits by ripping off taxpayers then it was by delivering innovation and better service.

As for the elites, look at the bank bailouts - shareholders were kept whole and taxpayers got the shaft. Look at what they're doing with immigration - they don't give a damn about the country, they want to flood America with low wage workers in order to drive down EVERYONE'S wages in order to increase their own wealth. They're doing the very same thing that I rail on lefties about - they're using their vote and power to corrupt society in order to enrich themselves.

These bastards are your enemy, they're my enemy, they're not the entrepreneurs that you're defending. When you look at the total map, those who you're defending are the minority and your defense gives cover to vast swathes of rent-seekers and elites who mean to do you harm.

What really makes Lefties blood boil are the hedge fund guys paying capital gains taxes on their share of the investment gains that they make for their portfolio. Those gains are capital gains for the investors but for the managers this is their job, this is income, not investment gain. These guys use influence in DC in order to classify their income as capital gains and by doing so they screw everyone else into paying more in taxes. Why do they need to be protected? You're protecting a guy who is corrupting the system.

I agree with you defense in theory because that's how matters SHOULD be, but American society is NOT like that and so your defense misses the mark by only describing a minority of what is happening.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Leftists want the complete enslavement of America. They want government bureaucrats to make all the decisions on your life. They want the common folk to bow and grovel before their government overlords and live in constant fear of angering some minion of the omnipotent state. They want to live at the expense of the productive while they tell everyone how to live and produce nothing of value to anyone.

Really, you know this do you? I wonder what else goes on in your head, vis a vis reality? I noticed, in the real world, that when the Democrats held the White House, the Senate and the H. of Rep. that no bill ever was passed to enslave Americans, nor were statues errected of President Obama requiring all who passed by to bow and "grovel".

In my most humble opinion, formed by reading many of the posts of bripat, I've concluded he is not only challenged by reality, he is pathologically angry and deeply disturbed.

A lot of bills were passed to enslave America, the primary one being Obamacare. They also passed Frank/Dodd, and Obama is using the EPA to impose is control over our energy choices. Of course, the fascists Dems can't get their entire agenda passed during one administration. They've been working for a century now to achieve their goal. They don't have much further to go.

You're nuts. On some level you must know that.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Really, you know this do you? I wonder what else goes on in your head, vis a vis reality? I noticed, in the real world, that when the Democrats held the White House, the Senate and the H. of Rep. that no bill ever was passed to enslave Americans, nor were statues errected of President Obama requiring all who passed by to bow and "grovel".

In my most humble opinion, formed by reading many of the posts of bripat, I've concluded he is not only challenged by reality, he is pathologically angry and deeply disturbed.

A lot of bills were passed to enslave America, the primary one being Obamacare. They also passed Frank/Dodd, and Obama is using the EPA to impose is control over our energy choices. Of course, the fascists Dems can't get their entire agenda passed during one administration. They've been working for a century now to achieve their goal. They don't have much further to go.

You're nuts. On some level you must know that.

It's a prerequisite for being conservative.

 

[Staidhup]

I am reminded of a quote by Thomas Paine "a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right and just" So who is the master of your destiny, the government or you? Do you have the personal ability, strength, fortitude, to face adversity and succeed based on your God given talents, or have you thrown in the towel and are willing to sell your liberty and freedom for mediocrity? The left views the centralized all encompassing government as their God, unhampered by the freedoms and rights as outlined by the constitution and bill of rights. The sad part of the socialist agenda is the resulting loss of freedom, re institution of the cast system, and crony capitalism. Its survival is predicated on greed and hate, class warfare, and racism.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The far left wants to turn all of America into Detroit

 

[Wry Catcher]

Boss: For example, social justice... what does that mean? How do we know when it is achieved? Wry Catcher: (I suppose when the work force and the jail/prison population mirror the national demographics)

But workforces are determined based on who has training and education to do the jobs available and prison population is based on who commits crime and is punished under the law. One has nothing to do with the other. Are we supposed to release criminals or dismiss the charges because we've reached some arbitrary quota of their particular demographic? Maybe we should just say that black people can't be convicted, only whites can be sent to prison? Or maybe only black people can be hired, even when they aren't qualified? Would that help bring about this Utopian dream world?

Boss: Yes, everyone wants the world to be perfect and life to be fair. It's not. Get over it. Wry Catcher: (Why?)

Because you don't live in a fucking fairy tale. Unicorns don't exist... flowers don't shoot out your ass when you fart! Wishing it would be like that isn't going to change it.



Every hospital in America is obligated to treat you regardless of your insurance status or ability to pay, it's the law. No doctor can deny you life-saving treatment without the risk of a malpractice lawsuit. You're the one who isn't in touch with reality. Obamacare did absolutely NOTHING to address the problems with the cost, availability or quality of health care in America... not one damn thing! And don't start the whining about "single payer" or as I like to call it "we all pay" ...we don't have that because DEMOCRATS didn't support it.

Wry Catcher: Wow, it's okay if the price of milk and bread and meat and eggs rises, but no one should recieve an increase in their income. Yep, you are a Republcian for the mantra of the new age Republican is this: "I got mine, fuck the rest of you"

I thought you said you studied economics? Do you not comprehend that when wages increase, the price of goods and services also increase? Whenever you effectively DOUBLE the price of fuel, prices are going up because everything requires transport. Stuff doesn't get to the stores via magic fairies. No, Republican's mantra is, I got mine and I want to keep mine, and I want you to get yours and keep yours.

Wry Catcher: You really can't comport current political events with their historical antecedants, or won't. You claim the issues of labor v. Capital have "already been addressed", and nothing can be further from the truth.

We've been addressing them since the early 1900s. I can list a slew of legislative acts which restrict capitalism in all kinds of ways to the advantage of labor. No one that I am aware of is suggesting we abandon the various anti-trust laws or remove all the restrictions and regulations on capitalism, but we can't just keep piling on more and more burden or we will plunge ourselves into economic catastrophe. We are currently feeling the effects of this now, with the current anti-capitalist administration policies. There are no jobs, not GOOD ones, anyway. Full time employment is almost non-existent these days because of Obamacare. Battering the wealthy and business class is tantamount to cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Until you END this stupid "War on the Rich" and get back to the business of growing the economy to produce economic prosperity, we will continue to nosedive. You can hang up all your liberal Utopian dreams, they will never come to fruition if you kill capitalism.

I'm not going to play your game, suffice it to say the greatest threat to capitalism are the capitalists, in my opinion. You may consider that a platitude, history suggests it is a fact. Greed is a deadly sin, but has become a virtue in some sectors of our society.

That said, I have no Utopian Dreams, I don't hate the rich, but I fear the Plutocrats; for they are the capitalists whose greed will lead to civil unrest.

 

[LoneLaugher]

I am reminded of a quote by Thomas Paine "a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right and just" So who is the master of your destiny, the government or you? Do you have the personal ability, strength, fortitude, to face adversity and succeed based on your God given talents, or have you thrown in the towel and are willing to sell your liberty and freedom for mediocrity? The left views the centralized all encompassing government as their God, unhampered by the freedoms and rights as outlined by the constitution and bill of rights. The sad part of the socialist agenda is the resulting loss of freedom, re institution of the cast system, and crony capitalism. Its survival is predicated on greed and hate, class warfare, and racism.

Bullshit.

There are no "god given" talents.

I love freedom. You won't take it from me.

The word is caste, not cast.

You lose.

 

[bripat9643]

Boss: For example, social justice... what does that mean? How do we know when it is achieved? Wry Catcher: (I suppose when the work force and the jail/prison population mirror the national demographics)

But workforces are determined based on who has training and education to do the jobs available and prison population is based on who commits crime and is punished under the law. One has nothing to do with the other. Are we supposed to release criminals or dismiss the charges because we've reached some arbitrary quota of their particular demographic? Maybe we should just say that black people can't be convicted, only whites can be sent to prison? Or maybe only black people can be hired, even when they aren't qualified? Would that help bring about this Utopian dream world?



Because you don't live in a fucking fairy tale. Unicorns don't exist... flowers don't shoot out your ass when you fart! Wishing it would be like that isn't going to change it.



Every hospital in America is obligated to treat you regardless of your insurance status or ability to pay, it's the law. No doctor can deny you life-saving treatment without the risk of a malpractice lawsuit. You're the one who isn't in touch with reality. Obamacare did absolutely NOTHING to address the problems with the cost, availability or quality of health care in America... not one damn thing! And don't start the whining about "single payer" or as I like to call it "we all pay" ...we don't have that because DEMOCRATS didn't support it.



I thought you said you studied economics? Do you not comprehend that when wages increase, the price of goods and services also increase? Whenever you effectively DOUBLE the price of fuel, prices are going up because everything requires transport. Stuff doesn't get to the stores via magic fairies. No, Republican's mantra is, I got mine and I want to keep mine, and I want you to get yours and keep yours.

Wry Catcher: You really can't comport current political events with their historical antecedants, or won't. You claim the issues of labor v. Capital have "already been addressed", and nothing can be further from the truth.

We've been addressing them since the early 1900s. I can list a slew of legislative acts which restrict capitalism in all kinds of ways to the advantage of labor. No one that I am aware of is suggesting we abandon the various anti-trust laws or remove all the restrictions and regulations on capitalism, but we can't just keep piling on more and more burden or we will plunge ourselves into economic catastrophe. We are currently feeling the effects of this now, with the current anti-capitalist administration policies. There are no jobs, not GOOD ones, anyway. Full time employment is almost non-existent these days because of Obamacare. Battering the wealthy and business class is tantamount to cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Until you END this stupid "War on the Rich" and get back to the business of growing the economy to produce economic prosperity, we will continue to nosedive. You can hang up all your liberal Utopian dreams, they will never come to fruition if you kill capitalism.

I'm not going to play your game, suffice it to say the greatest threat to capitalism are the capitalists, in my opinion. You may consider that a platitude, history suggests it is a fact. Greed is a deadly sin, but has become a virtue in some sectors of our society.

That said, I have no Utopian Dreams, I don't hate the rich, but I fear the Plutocrats; for they are the capitalists whose greed will lead to civil unrest.

You believe capitalists are a threat to themselves because they refuse to adopt socialism.

 

[bripat9643]

Really, you know this do you? I wonder what else goes on in your head, vis a vis reality? I noticed, in the real world, that when the Democrats held the White House, the Senate and the H. of Rep. that no bill ever was passed to enslave Americans, nor were statues errected of President Obama requiring all who passed by to bow and "grovel".

In my most humble opinion, formed by reading many of the posts of bripat, I've concluded he is not only challenged by reality, he is pathologically angry and deeply disturbed.

A lot of bills were passed to enslave America, the primary one being Obamacare. They also passed Frank/Dodd, and Obama is using the EPA to impose is control over our energy choices. Of course, the fascists Dems can't get their entire agenda passed during one administration. They've been working for a century now to achieve their goal. They don't have much further to go.

You're nuts. On some level you must know that.

A slave who is comfortable with his chains believes any slave who wants to be free is nuts. It's sad that some people come to enjoy the taste of boot polish.

 

[Wry Catcher]

But workforces are determined based on who has training and education to do the jobs available and prison population is based on who commits crime and is punished under the law. One has nothing to do with the other. Are we supposed to release criminals or dismiss the charges because we've reached some arbitrary quota of their particular demographic? Maybe we should just say that black people can't be convicted, only whites can be sent to prison? Or maybe only black people can be hired, even when they aren't qualified? Would that help bring about this Utopian dream world?



Because you don't live in a fucking fairy tale. Unicorns don't exist... flowers don't shoot out your ass when you fart! Wishing it would be like that isn't going to change it.



Every hospital in America is obligated to treat you regardless of your insurance status or ability to pay, it's the law. No doctor can deny you life-saving treatment without the risk of a malpractice lawsuit. You're the one who isn't in touch with reality. Obamacare did absolutely NOTHING to address the problems with the cost, availability or quality of health care in America... not one damn thing! And don't start the whining about "single payer" or as I like to call it "we all pay" ...we don't have that because DEMOCRATS didn't support it.



I thought you said you studied economics? Do you not comprehend that when wages increase, the price of goods and services also increase? Whenever you effectively DOUBLE the price of fuel, prices are going up because everything requires transport. Stuff doesn't get to the stores via magic fairies. No, Republican's mantra is, I got mine and I want to keep mine, and I want you to get yours and keep yours.



We've been addressing them since the early 1900s. I can list a slew of legislative acts which restrict capitalism in all kinds of ways to the advantage of labor. No one that I am aware of is suggesting we abandon the various anti-trust laws or remove all the restrictions and regulations on capitalism, but we can't just keep piling on more and more burden or we will plunge ourselves into economic catastrophe. We are currently feeling the effects of this now, with the current anti-capitalist administration policies. There are no jobs, not GOOD ones, anyway. Full time employment is almost non-existent these days because of Obamacare. Battering the wealthy and business class is tantamount to cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Until you END this stupid "War on the Rich" and get back to the business of growing the economy to produce economic prosperity, we will continue to nosedive. You can hang up all your liberal Utopian dreams, they will never come to fruition if you kill capitalism.

I'm not going to play your game, suffice it to say the greatest threat to capitalism are the capitalists, in my opinion. You may consider that a platitude, history suggests it is a fact. Greed is a deadly sin, but has become a virtue in some sectors of our society.

That said, I have no Utopian Dreams, I don't hate the rich, but I fear the Plutocrats; for they are the capitalists whose greed will lead to civil unrest.

You believe capitalists are a threat to themselves because they refuse to adopt socialism.

No I don't. This is one more example that you are challenged by reality.

 

[Boss]

And you know who is being protected by your defense of this idealism, the rent-seekers and the elite.

Your definition should include health insurance companies and medical device companies. They innovate, they deliver a product and their success is determined by the market. The losers go bankrupt and the winners are rewarded for their innovation. And then the Democrats start talking about expanding the health insurance market by making it mandatory for everyone and government subsidizing people and all of these companies threw their lot in with the big government folks because it was easier to earn profits by ripping off taxpayers then it was by delivering innovation and better service.

"Rent-seekers" is nothing more than socialist hyperbole to describe capitalists. The health insurance companies were capitalists acting in their personal best interests. What were they supposed to do? Opposition to the ideas of reform would have left them out of the room in the formulation of the reforms themselves, thus rendering them powerless to control their destiny. Getting on board with reforms that were inevitable, they were able to help shape the policy, giving themselves a golden parachute in the process. It wasn't that it was easier, it was smarter. Don't blame health insurance providers for this clusterfuck, it's ALL Democrat doings.

As for the elites, look at the bank bailouts - shareholders were kept whole and taxpayers got the shaft. Look at what they're doing with immigration - they don't give a damn about the country, they want to flood America with low wage workers in order to drive down EVERYONE'S wages in order to increase their own wealth. They're doing the very same thing that I rail on lefties about - they're using their vote and power to corrupt society in order to enrich themselves.

I'm a Tea Partier, we vehemently opposed the bailouts. All believers in free market capitalism should have opposed them because that's not free market capitalism. In a free market system, businesses aren't "too big to fail." They fail, and new business takes their place. Wages are not lowered so capitalists can make more profit, just as they aren't raised because capitalists make more profit. Wages, in a free market system, are determined (or supposed to be) by supply and demand. A capitalist with a job available is no different than any other capitalist with a commodity available to a consumer, the dynamic is simply reversed and the capitalist is going to give the job to the person best qualified to do the job at the lowest rate. The job seeker is like any other consumer, their dynamic is also reversed, they seek the highest rate of pay for their work. Whatever is ultimately negotiated is (should be) between the two parties and government should not interfere. ALL capitalists are in business as capitalists to make profits. I have never known of a capitalist who didn't care whether he made profit. That said, the Tea Party also opposes amnesty and demands we secure our borders.

These bastards are your enemy, they're my enemy, they're not the entrepreneurs that you're defending. When you look at the total map, those who you're defending are the minority and your defense gives cover to vast swathes of rent-seekers and elites who mean to do you harm.

Well I am only one political voice in the vast ocean here. I endure a daily barrage of name-calling insults and denigration because I support Tea Party candidates. I've already shown you where I don't support bastards who want 1.) nationalized health care, 2.) bailouts, 3.) stimulus packages, 4.) amnesty for illegal aliens, 5.) more government protecting the elite. I continue to reject the "rent-seekers" label because it's socialist hyperbole.

What really makes Lefties blood boil are the hedge fund guys paying capital gains taxes on their share of the investment gains that they make for their portfolio. Those gains are capital gains for the investors but for the managers this is their job, this is income, not investment gain. These guys use influence in DC in order to classify their income as capital gains and by doing so they screw everyone else into paying more in taxes. Why do they need to be protected? You're protecting a guy who is corrupting the system.

Wait a minute... Capital gains are monetary gains made by investors using capital. The more you tax that, the less of it you get. If you want less capital to be invested by capitalist investors, raise the capital gains tax rate. I personally want to encourage MORE investment of capital because it has proven to create more jobs and greater tax revenues. We don't tax capital gains like incomes because the money has already been taxed as income when it was earned. There is always a monetary risk involved with capitalist investment, it's not like a typical income situation where you are simply paid an income for work you provide, you can lose every penny of your investment. To incentivize these type of investments, we have a lower capital gains tax rate.

If you are worried about the influence of power in DC, why not reduce the amount of power DC has? Seems like the best and most sensible way to deal with that particular problem.

I agree with you defense in theory because that's how matters SHOULD be, but American society is NOT like that and so your defense misses the mark by only describing a minority of what is happening.

Well what I can't agree with is this new neo-libertarian anarchist view where both political parties are bad and we're supposed to cede our political voices to some third-party nutbag who can't win the election and couldn't effectively govern in a two-party system if he did. Regardless of how either of us view society, the inevitable outcome is going to be one of two parties in power, implementing one of two distinctly different ideologies. I favor the more conservative of the two.

 

[Boss]

I'm not going to play your game, suffice it to say the greatest threat to capitalism are the capitalists, in my opinion. You may consider that a platitude, history suggests it is a fact. Greed is a deadly sin, but has become a virtue in some sectors of our society.

That said, I have no Utopian Dreams, I don't hate the rich, but I fear the Plutocrats; for they are the capitalists whose greed will lead to civil unrest.

Greed is always going to exist regardless of what type of government or the amount of government you have. Do you believe that government bodies are not greedy? Is every government employee and agency impervious to greed or something? Is there some enlightened way for us to eliminate greed through the legislative process? What about poor people, are they devoid of greed? How about those precious labor unions, are they not capable of greed?

Now it's important to remember, pure greed can't really exist in a vibrant and competitive free market capitalist system. If a capitalist becomes too greedy, there is another capitalist out there who is willing to not be so greedy and he capitalizes. It is the overbearing government apparatus that constantly meddles in free market capitalism, which enables the greed to thrive. People are greedy because they can get away with being greedy. If the government is going to be duplicitous in protecting greed, why not be greedy?

Plutocracy is also going to exist despite any measure you take to mitigate it. Money IS power, always has been and always will be. This is probably the best argument for a smaller more limited government, where there is no 'power' to be bought by the plutocrat. It's also important to note how this 'plutocrat' rhetoric ties in with the failed 19th century Marxist rhetoric espoused by the left. Before there was an America with freedom to compete in a free enterprise, free market capitalist system, the plutocrats were mostly the ruling class elite across Europe. They controlled all the wealth and power, and the people were powerless. Here, we developed a free market of ideas and opportunity, where ANY person can obtain the wealth status they desire. It is a system that has produced more millionaires and billionaires than any system ever devised by man. If you want to mitigate plutocracy, promote individual wealth and prosperity and discourage more powerful government where plutocrats can influence outcomes.

And I disagree that you're not a Utopian dreamer. Much of what you are saying is absolute Utopianism. You believe it's possible for us to turn more freedom and liberty over to government and government is somehow going to eliminate greed and plutocracy. Miraculously, everyone is going to be paid a better wage, there will be bountiful jobs and economic prosperity, all people will have adequate health care at little or no cost, wealth will be redistributed equally and flowers will shoot out our ass when we fart, while we dance with the unicorns.

 

[Rikurzhen]

"Rent-seekers" is nothing more than socialist hyperbole to describe capitalists.

Nothing wrong with learning new things. You're wrong. The concept of economic rent goes back to Adam Smith and long predates the devilry of Karl Marx:

Rent-seeking is an attempt to obtain economic rent (i.e., the portion of income paid to a factor of production in excess of that which is needed to keep it employed in its current use) by manipulating the social or political environment in which economic activities occur, rather than by creating new wealth. Rent-seeking implies extraction of uncompensated value from others without making any contribution to productivity. The classic example of rent-seeking, according to Robert Shiller, is that of a feudal lord who installs a chain across a river that flows through his land and then hires a collector to charge passing boats a fee (or rent of the section of the river for a few minutes) to lower the chain. There is nothing productive about the chain or the collector. The lord has made no improvements to the river and is helping nobody in any way, directly or indirectly, except himself. All he is doing is finding a way to make money from something that used to be free.​

Wages, in a free market system, are determined (or supposed to be) by supply and demand. A capitalist with a job available is no different than any other capitalist with a commodity available to a consumer, the dynamic is simply reversed and the capitalist is going to give the job to the person best qualified to do the job at the lowest rate. The job seeker is like any other consumer, their dynamic is also reversed, they seek the highest rate of pay for their work. Whatever is ultimately negotiated is (should be) between the two parties and government should not interfere. ALL capitalists are in business as capitalists to make profits. I have never known of a capitalist who didn't care whether he made profit. That said, the Tea Party also opposes amnesty and demands we secure our borders.

I bolded your opening statement because I want to address it separately. That bolded statement describes the rules of the game and the remainder of your statement describes what happens DURING the game.

It is an unfair game when one side gets to load the dice to their favor before you begin the game. That's what corporate America does with its support for open borders and very generous immigration quotas. They flood the labor market with more potential employees, thus depressing the price of labor and commensurately increasing their returns to capital. Once the labor market is flooded with surplus labor, then the game begins and the mechanics of the marketplace kick in.

When a casino loads the dice, or when a card sharp marks the deck, you're not in fair game. Now it becomes kind of crazy for you to be defending the rules of the game as being fair, when unfair actions were taken before the game began, the dice were substituted and the cards were marked.

Wait a minute... Capital gains are monetary gains made by investors using capital. The more you tax that, the less of it you get. If you want less capital to be invested by capitalist investors, raise the capital gains tax rate. I personally want to encourage MORE investment of capital because it has proven to create more jobs and greater tax revenues. We don't tax capital gains like incomes because the money has already been taxed as income when it was earned. There is always a monetary risk involved with capitalist investment, it's not like a typical income situation where you are simply paid an income for work you provide, you can lose every penny of your investment. To incentivize these type of investments, we have a lower capital gains tax rate.

Your telling me things I already know, but that's OK because you don't know me well yet. I have no problem with what you wrote. Now notice the two bolded parts of your statement. That capital gains tax rationale applies to investors. So why are the fund managers getting the benefit? They're not investing, they're managing, in other words they earn their money by supplying their expertise, just like a plumber supplies an expertise. When a fund makes $1 billion, the managers get 20% of that profit. They EARNED that money via labor, not through the investment of capital like their investor did.

They've bent the rules and are ripping everyone off by not paying income tax on their EARNINGS but are pretending that what they've earned is an INVESTMENT GAIN.

If you are worried about the influence of power in DC, why not reduce the amount of power DC has? Seems like the best and most sensible way to deal with that particular problem.

That's a complicated topic, but let me say that the lower hanging fruit here is to identify and remedy the actions of those who are working against the vision you have. When people "cheat" in order to enrich themselves, I'm in no mood to defend them nor the rules that they take advantage of nor am I willing to defend them as a class of people.

 

[jasonnfree]

What does the far right want? OF course besides defending the3 uber wealthy. :Class warfare should be alive and well with any middle class person with half a brain.

Okay... Try to use that thing between your ears called a BRAIN... Why would average people simply want to take up for wealthy people? Are we hoping the wealthy people will feel a sense of generosity because of our efforts? Well, so far I haven't received any rewards. Has anyone else on the right gotten your check from The Rich for defending them? No? Really? I'm shocked! (not)

So what you are saying doesn't even make any sense. It's just that, you've got this perfectly good War on the Rich going, and the 'stupid dullards' on the right won't join your efforts to crucify them, so you create these imaginary excuses to explain it. Let me help you out...

People who have a lot of money, mostly have it invested or socked away somewhere earning interest. It's not really taxable income because it's not earned income, it was already taxed when it was earned. These people are perfectly content with leaving their money right where it is and living lives of luxury from here on out. They don't need to earn any more income, they are wealthy already. You and I need to earn income to pay bills and whatnot. Now, the way we earn income is through a thing called a JOB. So where do these come from? They come from capitalists who are attempting to make profits. Generally speaking, the more wealthy the capitalist, the more JOBS they create.

When you adopt policies that punish the capitalist or restrict his ability to earn a profit, then he responds by eliminating JOBS, closing up shop, then investing his fortunes in securities and bonds like the rest of the wealthy. When you jack up the income tax rate on these wealthy people, it's just more incentive for them to keep their money where it is and not use it to create more income.

But now... What WE favor is, easing the burdens and restrictions a bit, so that capitalists are motivated to do what they do best, and wealthy people are encouraged to take that money out of the mattress and create new business ventures. Of course, they are naturally going to make more money and profit, but in the process, so are we. They are going to create all sorts of new jobs for us to do. The more money they make, the more taxes they pay, and the more JOBS they create, the more taxes we'll pay as well. This creates a windfall of new tax revenue, which we can spend to upgrade education, provide for our veterans, allocate money for student loans, provide economic investment opportunities for minorities and such.

So that's the difference. We aren't "defending the rich" for any other reason than "the rich" is who you're attacking and it's to the detriment of our economy and prosperity. On a side note.... We do not have "classes" in America. Our nation is founded on the principle that ALL men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights. We ALL have the same opportunity to become as successfully rich as we want to be in America and we are NOT confined to a certain "class" by virtue of our ruling government. Such was the case in much of 19th century Europe, where there was no constitutional republic, only totalitarian rulers and kings, and the "class" or status of the people was unchangeable. You were either born into privilege and part of the ruling class, or you were a peasant. Our nation changed all that and implemented a system where even the poorest little abused black girl in a tar shack of rural Mississippi could rise up to become the wealthiest woman in America.

If we all have the same privileges and rights, try claiming accelerated depreciation on the car that you use to go to work and try getting the carried interest rate on your wages like the hedge fund guys do. Nice pep talk to the troops about the poor sharecropper that hits the big time though. Sorry to pop your bubble but these type of success stories you mentioned are one in maybe a hundred thousand.

 

[Bfgrn]

Those who support the Republican brand seem to use the phrase "far left" and "left wingers" to describe everyone who disagrees with the dogma they hold true. Since it makes no sense to use these phrases to describe ten of millions of Americans, maybe one of them who uses these phrases would describe the beliefs those who disagree with them hold.

That the phrases are used interchangeably with "Marixts, "Communists", "Socialists" and other such words as pejoratives, and it is likely these economic theories are not understood and are not differentiated from political theories of governance by their users, I expect any of them who attempt to answer this question to default to personal attacks and or idiot-grams. But we will see, maybe one of them will actually think and respond substantively.

I don't actually support the "Republican brand" as it were, but I will be happy to engage your question in an honest debate. The first and most obvious point I'd like to make is, you have failed to explain what you believe "the left" wants for America. It's as if you want your opposition to explain that to you. I can only assume this is so you can attack whatever they say. Therefore rendering your question quite rhetorical. But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are genuinely interested to know what it is that "the right" thinks you want.

Okay, I am going to shock you here. I think you genuinely want a better America. You want a society where people don't have to worry about being sick, don't have to financially struggle to survive, where everyone is paid a decent wage for the work they do, no one is discriminated against, and all things are fair. I think you honestly believe liberal policies and initiatives will bring about this society. That in itself is an admirable vision, the problem is, it has never been achieved in all of world history. It has been attempted repeatedly with dismal results.

My main problem with "the left" is how they believe the world began yesterday. They have very little concept of history, most are simply illiterate of history, and I am sorry if that offends or sounds derisive, I just believe it to be a fact. I think most of you slept through world history class or something. You simply fail to realize your ideas have been tried, over and over, in various incarnations under various forms of government. If the ideas were going to work, they would have worked by now. Since the early 19th century, there have been several large-scale case studies of your policies, all have ended with mass genocide on an unimaginable scale. The problem always seems to stem from corruption within the government you trust to implement your plans. It all looks good on paper, it should all work out well for the people, but because governments inherently grow corrupt over time, it always fails. This is why it's better to have limited government and more individual liberty.

You see, we devised in America, a system where the people had ultimate power over the government. This enables free enterprise, a free market capitalist economic system, where people's needs are met through laws of supply and demand, and each individual has opportunity to participate on their own merits. This doesn't eliminate the problem of poverty for some, the worries and needs of the 'less fortunate' or the less motivated. However, it is a system that is responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires than anything ever devised by man. It has produced a system where the "average" person in America is better off than most "wealthy" people elsewhere.

We literally went from being a fledgling little upstart country to the greatest and most powerful nation the world has ever seen in just a couple hundred years. As we've achieved this pinnacle of greatness, we have implemented more and more 'governmental' policies designed to help the less fortunate. For a while, it was a burden our vibrant system could handle. We've now reached a point where these social entitlement policies are dramatically affecting the economic stability of our system. We're in a spiraling mode of ever-increasing debt that we can't seem to reverse. This cannot be sustained. Eventually it all comes crashing to the ground.

The "left" and "right" in this country is defined by which way they wish to ratchet our policies. The left wants to continue to ratchet to the ever-increasing social entitlements and more debt we can never repay, the right wants to ratchet in the other direction. In doing so, they are met by resistance from the left and a barrage of unfounded accusations, like wanting to give tax breaks to the rich, not caring about the sick and poor, etc. The real truth of the matter is, if we do not return to what made us great, we will collapse and the sick and poor will be the first to suffer. Pushing for more and more failed policies of the left is never going to save America. The ONLY salvation is through vibrant free market capitalism. Yes, that means rich people will get richer, but it also means poor people climb out of poverty and middle class people become part of the rich. As JFK said, a rising tide floats all boats.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan

A reasonable attempt, but rife with dogma and falsehoods.

Actually the long history of mankind has been a struggle between those who want to increase freedom, opportunity and rights to all people and those who want to restrict them. The people who have always fought to increase freedom, opportunity and rights are liberals. The people who have fought to restrict them are conservatives.

I am old enough to remember when those liberal policies did work in America. From the New Deal through the Great Society we created the most robust middle class in history. To steal from President Kennedy, America was the "city upon a hill"

I've been around since Harry Truman was President, so I lived through a good portion of the liberal era that started with the New Deal and ended with the Great Society. It was America's finest moment. It was an era with huge economic growth and shared wealth, fantastic successes in technology, vast expansion of citizen freedoms and liberties and the growth of a middle class that defined this country and made America the "city upon a hill", the envy of the world.

That era ended at the end of the 1960's and the conservative era began. It has continued ever since. It has been a negative mirror image of the liberal era. We now lead the world only in the dubious like incarcerating human beings, killing innocent people and launching Hirohito sneak attacks on sovereign nations.

Our debt has not been caused by entitlement programs. It has been caused by tax cuts for the wealthy, unfunded wars, the growth of government by Republicans without taxes to pay for that growth and K Street corruption.

Like our founding fathers, liberals believe in capitalism, but not in any "invisible hand". Our founding fathers had very tight regulations on corporations and would shut down any corporation that did not serve the common good.

There is definitely a lack of knowledge of history, but it on your part.


"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

"Harry Truman once said, 'There are 14 or 15 million Americans who have the resources to have representatives in Washington to protect their interests, and that the interests of the great mass of the other people - the 150 or 160 million - is the responsibility of the president of the United States, and I propose to fulfill it.'"
President John F. Kennedy