What Happened to Church?

[Cecilie1200]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

Try the next church. Preferably one that adheres to the Word and Spirit of God with no theatrics. When I was a kid, I and my best friend went to about every church in the area. I determined the best local one was the Black M.E. (whatever that means) Baptist church.

Oh, I am. And I'm doing a lot of praying on the subject, because God has somewhere He needs me to be, and something He needs me to do, and I need to be listening for His directions to it.

God wants me to tell you, you should be in the kitchen mopping the floor.

I have no idea if God wants me to tell you to get back on-topic and stop trying to derail the thread, but I want to tell you that, so I'm doing so.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Maybe YOU shouldn't.

Thanks, but I didn't.

Yeah, you never, ever spend your time decrying the splinter in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the plank in your own. Uh huh. Move along. As usual, you have nothing whatsoever of value to offer.

Get away from the non denominational denomination Cecille. It’s shallow entertainment. Eventually they all shed the Christian aspects.
And Hillsong is a cancer.

Sadly, it's not just the non-denominational churches. The largest AG church in Phoenix used to be Phoenix First Assembly of God. A few years back, they changed their name to "Dream City Church" (just typing it makes me throw up a little in my mouth), and by all accounts, they've gone even farther into the "shopping mall of Jesus" mindset than the place I went last Sunday.

Ironically enough, I noticed a few years back that OTHER segments of Pentecostal churches have morphed too far the other way, and are apparently trying to become Amish who own cars. It was most noticeable in women, who suddenly started wearing shapeless, sack-like dresses down to their calves and not cutting their hair and foregoing makeup. I thought then and think now that it's just the flip side of the same coin of superficiality.

Eesh, Pentecostals. We still call them the "Roly Poly" church.

Who's "we", and why?

 

[Marion Morrison]

Thanks, but I didn't.

Yeah, you never, ever spend your time decrying the splinter in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the plank in your own. Uh huh. Move along. As usual, you have nothing whatsoever of value to offer.

Get away from the non denominational denomination Cecille. It’s shallow entertainment. Eventually they all shed the Christian aspects.
And Hillsong is a cancer.

Sadly, it's not just the non-denominational churches. The largest AG church in Phoenix used to be Phoenix First Assembly of God. A few years back, they changed their name to "Dream City Church" (just typing it makes me throw up a little in my mouth), and by all accounts, they've gone even farther into the "shopping mall of Jesus" mindset than the place I went last Sunday.

Ironically enough, I noticed a few years back that OTHER segments of Pentecostal churches have morphed too far the other way, and are apparently trying to become Amish who own cars. It was most noticeable in women, who suddenly started wearing shapeless, sack-like dresses down to their calves and not cutting their hair and foregoing makeup. I thought then and think now that it's just the flip side of the same coin of superficiality.

Eesh, Pentecostals. We still call them the "Roly Poly" church.

Who's "we", and why?

Me and my best friend like I already stated, and because they were rolling in the aisles and "speaking in tongues".

Quite scary to an 11-year old, to be honest. We snuck out and high-tailed it home.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Maybe YOU shouldn't.

Thanks, but I didn't.

Yeah, you never, ever spend your time decrying the splinter in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the plank in your own. Uh huh. Move along. As usual, you have nothing whatsoever of value to offer.

Get away from the non denominational denomination Cecille. It’s shallow entertainment. Eventually they all shed the Christian aspects.
And Hillsong is a cancer.

Sadly, it's not just the non-denominational churches. The largest AG church in Phoenix used to be Phoenix First Assembly of God. A few years back, they changed their name to "Dream City Church" (just typing it makes me throw up a little in my mouth), and by all accounts, they've gone even farther into the "shopping mall of Jesus" mindset than the place I went last Sunday.

Ironically enough, I noticed a few years back that OTHER segments of Pentecostal churches have morphed too far the other way, and are apparently trying to become Amish who own cars. It was most noticeable in women, who suddenly started wearing shapeless, sack-like dresses down to their calves and not cutting their hair and foregoing makeup. I thought then and think now that it's just the flip side of the same coin of superficiality.

Without the mooring of the ancient faith they swing from one extreme to the other Cecilie. Being super conservative women is a state as egregious as liberalism.
I say this as a sympathetic fellow Christian.

Humans, for a number of reasons, are very susceptible to the "style over substance" trap.

I think the main reason that God laid down so many rules for how to live our lives in His service is because humans have so much trouble with simple yet profound concepts like "love the Lord your God" and "love thy neighbor", and have to have the things which are supposed to be the natural corollaries of those concepts spelled out for them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yeah, you never, ever spend your time decrying the splinter in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the plank in your own. Uh huh. Move along. As usual, you have nothing whatsoever of value to offer.

Get away from the non denominational denomination Cecille. It’s shallow entertainment. Eventually they all shed the Christian aspects.
And Hillsong is a cancer.

Sadly, it's not just the non-denominational churches. The largest AG church in Phoenix used to be Phoenix First Assembly of God. A few years back, they changed their name to "Dream City Church" (just typing it makes me throw up a little in my mouth), and by all accounts, they've gone even farther into the "shopping mall of Jesus" mindset than the place I went last Sunday.

Ironically enough, I noticed a few years back that OTHER segments of Pentecostal churches have morphed too far the other way, and are apparently trying to become Amish who own cars. It was most noticeable in women, who suddenly started wearing shapeless, sack-like dresses down to their calves and not cutting their hair and foregoing makeup. I thought then and think now that it's just the flip side of the same coin of superficiality.

Eesh, Pentecostals. We still call them the "Roly Poly" church.

Who's "we", and why?

Me and my best friend like I already stated, and because they were rolling in the aisles and "speaking in tongues".

Quite scary to an 11-year old, to be honest. We snuck out and high-tailed it home.

A lot of things about the world are scary to 11-year-olds. I can distinctly remember being utterly creeped out by the concept of sex when I was 11. That was about the age that I acquired an understanding of the basic mechanics of how the act was performed, and it sounded absolutely repulsive at the time.

 

[Taz]

I'll get back to it: god should cost any money, making church a scam.

And, to stick with the thread topic, the church has watered down and weakened the message of the Gospel to the point that the gospel of prosperity and ease has gained traction. You're a prime example of that poison, wanting a God that expects nothing from you but gives you everything regardless. Down that road lies powerless, unfulfilling, false religion, not relationship.

God doesn't need our money, so finding god should be free. You've been scammed. Or did Jesus have ushers hit people up for money every time they came to hear him speak?

Get. Back. On. Topic.

I swear, my 3-month-old kitten has a longer attention span than you do.

Vastness leads to many topics.

Yeah, but this thread doesn't. I have something I really want to talk about and explore, and my always-limited patience has run out with Taz and the Tazettes hijacking and derailing every vaguely religious thread so that the only thing that ever gets discussed is their religiophobia.

You worship the hide n' seek god whom you have a hard time finding, so you study, you listen to explanations, and you generally just follow what someone else made up. God shouldn't have to be so hard, and it should be free because it doesn't need our money.

God isn’t hard to find.

Then why are so many people not finding your god? (Including all the people who have found a different god).

Because, like you, they're too busy congratulating themselves on how "superior" they are and how they therefore don't need to look for Him.

Lots of people find other gods.

There's a difference between finding God and inventing a god.

How do you know you've found the right god? You can't even find a church that you agree with.

 

[Taz]

Then why are so many people not finding your god? (Including all the people who have found a different god).

Because like you they have never looked.

Oh come on, everyone is looking for answers, and some people have found other gods. Actually, your god is in the minority.

Looking for answers is not the same thing as looking for the RIGHT answers. All too many people are looking for the answers that they WANT to be true.

Like you.

Rest assured, I am giving your opinion on the subject every iota of respect it deserves.

I know, that's why you keep responding to me.

 

[Taz]

Oh come on, everyone is looking for answers, and some people have found other gods. Actually, your god is in the minority.

And they are better off for that too. There is only one God. It’s not like there’s a smorgasbord of Gods out there. He doesn’t care what name you call him. He answers to many.

So your god gives out 72 virgins like Allah does? Does your god tell you to kill Jews and Christians?

Get. Back. On. Topic.

You will not be hijacking this thread like you try to do with every religious thread.

That's your answer when you're stumped.

No, that's my answer when you try to make the topic "Look at me! Look at me! I hate God, and Christians are stooopid!"

Now get back on topic and stop piddling on the rug, Fido.

Does your god give out 72 virgins at the church you go to, or is that some other god?

 

[Taz]

You're still obsessed with money. Until you get past that, you'll never move forward. One last time, God doesn't need money, human institutions do. You want the free and easy road, to be selfish with your material belongings, and to have God give you everything without expecting anything from you. That's just not the way it works. Salvation and relationship with God are easily obtained but growth requires commitment and yes, sacrifice.

In the interest of refusing to be derailed from the purpose of the thread, this false religion has infected the church to the point where many pastors refuse to talk about sin and won't condemn it in their own congregations, or even identify it. They no longer differentiate between the faithful and the non believers, and even don't realize that there are those who are out to destroy the church from within. Church is becoming more entertainment oriented than holiness oriented.

They seem to believe that God and salvation are commodities which need to be marketed to the world, with advertising campaigns tailoring Christianity to appeal to its enemies.

Avoid that church, then.

Problem is, it's far too many churches these days, and it makes me concerned for the Church in general.

There's not a lot I, as an individual, can do about it, but Christians need to be aware of how much they've let the world creep in and infect their thinking.

Either they preach God's word and his Spirit is in the building, or not.

It's not that simple. There's preaching God's word, and then there's preaching God's word.

Let's go back to the church I was in Sunday. Technically, the sermon was in the Word, and it was Biblically correct. The problem with it was that it was on a level more appropriate to a children's Sunday school class. My third-grader would have found it profound and revelatory, but I would have serious questions about any adult - even a non-Christian - who felt greatly edified and enlightened by being informed that envy and coveting rot your spirit and lead to unhappiness. That's not exactly a newsflash.

And that is only addressing ONE of the ways in which church is supposed to enrich us and mature us in our relationship with God.

The preacher has to talk down to people and this surprises you?

 

[Taz]

I'll get back to it: god should cost any money, making church a scam.

And, to stick with the thread topic, the church has watered down and weakened the message of the Gospel to the point that the gospel of prosperity and ease has gained traction. You're a prime example of that poison, wanting a God that expects nothing from you but gives you everything regardless. Down that road lies powerless, unfulfilling, false religion, not relationship.

God doesn't need our money, so finding god should be free. You've been scammed. Or did Jesus have ushers hit people up for money every time they came to hear him speak?

Get. Back. On. Topic.

I swear, my 3-month-old kitten has a longer attention span than you do.

We're talking about church. What's this thread about anyways?

See above, re: no attention span.

There's an OP. Go read it, dimwit.

So I was asking if Jesus' church/ministry had ushers strong arming people for money?

 

[Taz]

God doesn't need our money, so finding god should be free. You've been scammed. Or did Jesus have ushers hit people up for money every time they came to hear him speak?

You're still obsessed with money. Until you get past that, you'll never move forward. One last time, God doesn't need money, human institutions do. You want the free and easy road, to be selfish with your material belongings, and to have God give you everything without expecting anything from you. That's just not the way it works. Salvation and relationship with God are easily obtained but growth requires commitment and yes, sacrifice.

In the interest of refusing to be derailed from the purpose of the thread, this false religion has infected the church to the point where many pastors refuse to talk about sin and won't condemn it in their own congregations, or even identify it. They no longer differentiate between the faithful and the non believers, and even don't realize that there are those who are out to destroy the church from within. Church is becoming more entertainment oriented than holiness oriented.

Can I find god without giving money to a church? If the answer is no, then you're trying to scam me.

No. As long as your focus is on hoarding your material goods and wealth, you can never find God. You can't even begin to LOOK for Him when your eyes are on your wallet.

God expects us to give of ourselves and to sacrifice, not because HE needs it, but because WE need it to become better people.

So the ultimate hoarder of wealth, the Pope, hasn't found god yet? Is that your final answer? ;biggrin:

Did you miss the several different times I have already stated that I am not Catholic? Quite obviously, I think the Catholic Church is mistaken in its doctrine and practice, since I have chosen not to join them. Beyond that, the relationship to God between that church and/or any of its members is none of my business.

I will state, in their defense, that the Catholic Church does and has done more to directly aid the needy throughout its history than any of the sanctimonious leftwingers who like to take potshots at them have ever even contemplated.

So because YOU haven't joined the Pope's brach of Christianity, he's wrong?

In what way?

 

[Taz]

But didn't god make the universe and the conditions were there at the beginning so that evil would flourish? Or something like that?

God made the universe with the conditions there at the beginning for humans to choose between good and evil. Free will is pointless if you don't have the option of being wrong.

It is an interesting question to try to resolve WHY did God create the Universe, the galaxies, and the Earth ??

My hypothesis about this is the classic Lonely God theory -- He/She/It wanted to have friends.

Well, we are told that God created mankind for companionship, so that's certainly an aspect. On the other hand, the universe is a rather large and complex endeavor for just that one purpose. Also, it's never been my experience of God that He does anything without multiple purposes being fulfilled.

It is my belief that there is a lot more going on here than just this one planet and the short little lives we live on it. I think there is an ultimate Purpose for which we are destined, and for which this life is designed to prepare us.

And no, I have absolutely no idea what that might be.

Maybe god wanted lots of friends and there's life all throughout the universe. Ever think of that?

Maybe when you read my posts, you should attempt to understand the meaning of the words. Ever think of THAT?

So god is a lonely loser and has to make up his own friends? Is that why you follow him?

 

[Taz]

But didn't god make the universe and the conditions were there at the beginning so that evil would flourish? Or something like that?

God made the universe with the conditions there at the beginning for humans to choose between good and evil. Free will is pointless if you don't have the option of being wrong.

It is an interesting question to try to resolve WHY did God create the Universe, the galaxies, and the Earth ??

My hypothesis about this is the classic Lonely God theory -- He/She/It wanted to have friends.

Well, we are told that God created mankind for companionship, so that's certainly an aspect. On the other hand, the universe is a rather large and complex endeavor for just that one purpose. Also, it's never been my experience of God that He does anything without multiple purposes being fulfilled.

It is my belief that there is a lot more going on here than just this one planet and the short little lives we live on it. I think there is an ultimate Purpose for which we are destined, and for which this life is designed to prepare us.

And no, I have absolutely no idea what that might be.

Maybe god wanted lots of friends and there's life all throughout the universe. Ever think of that?

Maybe when you read my posts, you should attempt to understand the meaning of the words. Ever think of THAT?

So god is a lonely loser and has to make up his own friends? Is that why you follow him?

 

[Taz]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

Try the next church. Preferably one that adheres to the Word and Spirit of God with no theatrics. When I was a kid, I and my best friend went to about every church in the area. I determined the best local one was the Black M.E. (whatever that means) Baptist church.

Oh, I am. And I'm doing a lot of praying on the subject, because God has somewhere He needs me to be, and something He needs me to do, and I need to be listening for His directions to it.

God wants me to tell you, you should be in the kitchen mopping the floor.

I have no idea if God wants me to tell you to get back on-topic and stop trying to derail the thread, but I want to tell you that, so I'm doing so.

I'll get back on topic, have you even mopped a floor in a church?

 

[Cecilie1200]

And, to stick with the thread topic, the church has watered down and weakened the message of the Gospel to the point that the gospel of prosperity and ease has gained traction. You're a prime example of that poison, wanting a God that expects nothing from you but gives you everything regardless. Down that road lies powerless, unfulfilling, false religion, not relationship.

God doesn't need our money, so finding god should be free. You've been scammed. Or did Jesus have ushers hit people up for money every time they came to hear him speak?

Get. Back. On. Topic.

I swear, my 3-month-old kitten has a longer attention span than you do.

Vastness leads to many topics.

Yeah, but this thread doesn't. I have something I really want to talk about and explore, and my always-limited patience has run out with Taz and the Tazettes hijacking and derailing every vaguely religious thread so that the only thing that ever gets discussed is their religiophobia.

God isn’t hard to find.

Then why are so many people not finding your god? (Including all the people who have found a different god).

Because, like you, they're too busy congratulating themselves on how "superior" they are and how they therefore don't need to look for Him.

Lots of people find other gods.

There's a difference between finding God and inventing a god.

How do you know you've found the right god? You can't even find a church that you agree with.

There's a difference between recognizing one's Creator when one encounters Him, and finding a group of human beings who agree with me on the most effective way to worship Him. Obviously.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Because like you they have never looked.

Oh come on, everyone is looking for answers, and some people have found other gods. Actually, your god is in the minority.

Looking for answers is not the same thing as looking for the RIGHT answers. All too many people are looking for the answers that they WANT to be true.

Like you.

Rest assured, I am giving your opinion on the subject every iota of respect it deserves.

I know, that's why you keep responding to me.

Yes, that is part of the reason why I continue to point out what an utter waste of perfectly good oxygen you are. The other part is that you're not going to be allowed to hijack this thread like you do ever other religiously-oriented thread.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And they are better off for that too. There is only one God. It’s not like there’s a smorgasbord of Gods out there. He doesn’t care what name you call him. He answers to many.

So your god gives out 72 virgins like Allah does? Does your god tell you to kill Jews and Christians?

Get. Back. On. Topic.

You will not be hijacking this thread like you try to do with every religious thread.

That's your answer when you're stumped.

No, that's my answer when you try to make the topic "Look at me! Look at me! I hate God, and Christians are stooopid!"

Now get back on topic and stop piddling on the rug, Fido.

Does your god give out 72 virgins at the church you go to, or is that some other god?

 

[Cecilie1200]

They seem to believe that God and salvation are commodities which need to be marketed to the world, with advertising campaigns tailoring Christianity to appeal to its enemies.

Avoid that church, then.

Problem is, it's far too many churches these days, and it makes me concerned for the Church in general.

There's not a lot I, as an individual, can do about it, but Christians need to be aware of how much they've let the world creep in and infect their thinking.

Either they preach God's word and his Spirit is in the building, or not.

It's not that simple. There's preaching God's word, and then there's preaching God's word.

Let's go back to the church I was in Sunday. Technically, the sermon was in the Word, and it was Biblically correct. The problem with it was that it was on a level more appropriate to a children's Sunday school class. My third-grader would have found it profound and revelatory, but I would have serious questions about any adult - even a non-Christian - who felt greatly edified and enlightened by being informed that envy and coveting rot your spirit and lead to unhappiness. That's not exactly a newsflash.

And that is only addressing ONE of the ways in which church is supposed to enrich us and mature us in our relationship with God.

The preacher has to talk down to people and this surprises you?

You don't understand a frigging thing you ever read, and that surprises me not at all.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And, to stick with the thread topic, the church has watered down and weakened the message of the Gospel to the point that the gospel of prosperity and ease has gained traction. You're a prime example of that poison, wanting a God that expects nothing from you but gives you everything regardless. Down that road lies powerless, unfulfilling, false religion, not relationship.

God doesn't need our money, so finding god should be free. You've been scammed. Or did Jesus have ushers hit people up for money every time they came to hear him speak?

Get. Back. On. Topic.

I swear, my 3-month-old kitten has a longer attention span than you do.

We're talking about church. What's this thread about anyways?

See above, re: no attention span.

There's an OP. Go read it, dimwit.

So I was asking if Jesus' church/ministry had ushers strong arming people for money?

And I was answering, yet again, that this thread is not in any way about money, or about your pathological obsession with other people's money.

For the record, every time you try to drag the thread down your "But MONEY!" tangent, that is going to be the answer, so you might as well write it down somewhere so you can remember.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You're still obsessed with money. Until you get past that, you'll never move forward. One last time, God doesn't need money, human institutions do. You want the free and easy road, to be selfish with your material belongings, and to have God give you everything without expecting anything from you. That's just not the way it works. Salvation and relationship with God are easily obtained but growth requires commitment and yes, sacrifice.

In the interest of refusing to be derailed from the purpose of the thread, this false religion has infected the church to the point where many pastors refuse to talk about sin and won't condemn it in their own congregations, or even identify it. They no longer differentiate between the faithful and the non believers, and even don't realize that there are those who are out to destroy the church from within. Church is becoming more entertainment oriented than holiness oriented.

Can I find god without giving money to a church? If the answer is no, then you're trying to scam me.

No. As long as your focus is on hoarding your material goods and wealth, you can never find God. You can't even begin to LOOK for Him when your eyes are on your wallet.

God expects us to give of ourselves and to sacrifice, not because HE needs it, but because WE need it to become better people.

So the ultimate hoarder of wealth, the Pope, hasn't found god yet? Is that your final answer? ;biggrin:

Did you miss the several different times I have already stated that I am not Catholic? Quite obviously, I think the Catholic Church is mistaken in its doctrine and practice, since I have chosen not to join them. Beyond that, the relationship to God between that church and/or any of its members is none of my business.

I will state, in their defense, that the Catholic Church does and has done more to directly aid the needy throughout its history than any of the sanctimonious leftwingers who like to take potshots at them have ever even contemplated.

So because YOU haven't joined the Pope's brach of Christianity, he's wrong?

In what way?

Look up "Cause and Effect", Mensa Boy. He's not wrong because I haven't joined his church. I haven't joined his church because I believe him - and it - to be wrong.

As with everything else, you got it ass-backward.

Also, this is not a thread about the doctrinal differences between Catholics and Protestants, and it's not going to become one. Feel free to Google it.