What should the highest income tax rate be?

[kaz]

Corporate Taxes are a different entity to me. I understand where you are going, but

If I make $30 an hour at a company to work now, I still make $30 an Hour irregardless of the Tax Code.

So if it goes to a Flat tax, I'll still make $30 an hour but pay the Federal Tax at 15%.

I don't see through to your point.

I wasn't talking about corporate taxes. Your company has to pay you enough to pay your income taxes. Your salary is not calculated regardless of the taxes you pay.

Let's say you got a graduate degree, work experience and are reliable.

Joe didn't do any of that. You're worth three times what Joe is.

Your expected tax rate is 25%. Joe's is 0%.

Joe makes $10 an hour.

Well, you then have to make $40 an hour. You pay 25% tax, and you get the $30 an hour that is three times Joe.

If your company does not pay you $40 an hour, then you will not work for them. You're three times as valuable as Joe economically. You're not going to work for $30 and just give 25% of what you're worth to the government.

Your company collects that money from their customers, it's baked into the price of their product. If they can't, they go bust.

So, your company can do that, or they can go off shore or they can automate. Or an overseas competitor who doesn't have to pay $10 an hour to you to pay your taxes can beat them.

Money does not appear from nowhere and it doesn't go nowhere.

That's absurd. You are pulling numbers out of no where. If I'm making $30 now and pay taxes I'll make the same under the new law. Taxation rates don't set your pay scale.

You are also using prorated data. I said nothing about that. The 15% tax rate would hardly change my net income at all if it happened right now. Either way I pay taxes, it's just that one is simple and one requires some time filing my taxes.

I prefer the simple way. It's not going to affect my pay scale.

Pulling numbers out of no where? I walked you through the math, stop being ridiculous.

So seriously, you would spend tens of thousands of dollars a year and bypass years of earnings to get a degree, work hard, work at night, take more responsibility at work. So you can give the money to Obama. You can pay more taxes and get nothing for it. Suuurrreeeee you would. And sure would everyone else.

Stop being so naive. Companies pay people enough to pay their taxes, just like they pay them enough to pay for their home, grocery, cars, etc. That money is paid out of the price of the products they sell.

So, you eliminate that, you charge a sales tax directly on the price of the product, and cash wise it's a net zero.

Economics, it's a boom. People will stop working to avoid taxes and just make the most efficient decision.

 

[NYcarbineer]

That's a bald face LIE, the income tax system has been anything but flattening since we have nearly 50% of the wage earners paying no income taxes at all. You seem to have no clue that your beloved state is in fact one big economic exploitation machine and that the poor you claim to care about (and have made it obvious that you really don't) are the people that are it's hardest hit victims.



It is wholly ignorant for you to make such claims when it is crystal clear that you have no interest in finding the truth and are (as usual) stuck in partisan reactionary mode, you know if you keep refusing to use your brain for anything besides engaging your fingers to parrot partisan rhetoric it's going to shrivel up on you. Continue to wallow in your ignorance if that is what you wish, it will only keep reality at bay for so long though.

I said the rates have been flattening. Do you wish to argue that rates are more progressive now than they were 20, or 30, or 40, or 50 years ago?

Or would you rather argue that raising taxes, overall, on lower income Americans while lowering them on higher income Americans is going to make things better? Since that is your position.

Rates are not flattening... a range of zero to 39% is not flat, especially when about 1/2 the populace is paying that zero or even deriving benefit back monetarily or otherwise...

And perhaps, as others have been told before NUMEROUS times, you should look at what was considered income, what was deductible, etc before when the phony "90%" rates were in effect

Funny that you and other fuckers like you complain that the rich pay less than 15%.. raising them and ensuring everyone pays a flat 15% or 20% should be something you cheer for.. as well as cheering for equality in treatment that you claim you want.. but we all know that you and your fucking ilk only want to scream for equality when it benefits you and your cause.. and you and your fucking ilk have ZERO problem treating others unequally when it benefits you and your cause

There is no zero tax bracket. Rates are based on taxable income.

 

[kaz]

If you do not raise the debt ceiling when it's hit, that borrowing necessarily must come down to zero;

that means a third of what the government is currently spending has to stop

Eliminate Social Security, Medicare and all other welfare programs. Eliminate all foreign aid.

Start shutting down all overseas bases and bringing the troops home, cut military spending in half and focus it on defense of the United States.

Eliminate departments starting with energy, health and human services, education.

Free energy companies to develop US resources so taxes soar.

Eliminate corporate taxes so we become a tax haven and a jobs engine.

 

[kaz]

For the richest, most evil bastard in the country, what should their maximum income tax rate be?

I say 10%, that's enough for God.

I favor the Fair Tax, but this question assumes we don't change tax systems.

EDIT: Per an excellent point from iamwhatiseem, my intent in the ranges is that your rate is somewhere in that range. I did not mean you are OK with the entire range. I didn't want to get carried away with the number of choices.

How much??

If you had been Barack Obama Jr. or Barack Obama Sr., you would want 100% of every one's income taxed and the government would dole back to you in goods and services, an amount based upon that income.

Actually, it would be doled back based on some arbitrary measure of 'fairness'.

True, and "fairness" would be measured in value to the Democratic Party.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Rates are not flattening... a range of zero to 39% is not flat, especially when about 1/2 the populace is paying that zero or even deriving benefit back monetarily or otherwise...

And perhaps, as others have been told before NUMEROUS times, you should look at what was considered income, what was deductible, etc before when the phony "90%" rates were in effect

Funny that you and other fuckers like you complain that the rich pay less than 15%.. raising them and ensuring everyone pays a flat 15% or 20% should be something you cheer for.. as well as cheering for equality in treatment that you claim you want.. but we all know that you and your fucking ilk only want to scream for equality when it benefits you and your cause.. and you and your fucking ilk have ZERO problem treating others unequally when it benefits you and your cause

My federal income tax currently comes out to about 10% on an income around 50 grand. And I have the minimum amount of deductions, dependents, credits, etc...

you want to raise my tax to 15 or 20%? lol, good one.

Yet you want others to pay a higher rate... and even raise their taxes while you reap the benefits...

There should never have been a time where some paid differently on every dollar than others..

As stated.. you want equality when it benefits you and your agenda, and inequality for others when it benefits you and your agenda...

I'll stick for a call to equality in treatment.. blind to situation, race, sex, creed, etc

You want to raise taxes on everyone except those already paying 15 or 20%. The only people paying that much are upper income, therefore,

you want to raise taxes on everyone except most upper income Americans.

You've yet to explain why that will make things better.

 

[kaz]

Tax rates should never ever be more than 50% no matter how much one makes.
There is just something intrinsically wrong with the Government taking more than the person that made the money.

Do you understand the idea behind a progressive income tax?

Yes, it's a socialist political tool of wealth envy

 

[NYcarbineer]

If you do not raise the debt ceiling when it's hit, that borrowing necessarily must come down to zero;

that means a third of what the government is currently spending has to stop

Eliminate Social Security, Medicare and all other welfare programs. Eliminate all foreign aid.

Start shutting down all overseas bases and bringing the troops home, cut military spending in half and focus it on defense of the United States.

Eliminate departments starting with energy, health and human services, education.

Free energy companies to develop US resources so taxes soar.

Eliminate corporate taxes so we become a tax haven and a jobs engine.

Since your proposals are nothing more than a demented fantasy, I will take that answer to mean that you have no real world feasibly workable idea of how to cut a third out of current spending.

 

[DiamondDave]

I said the rates have been flattening. Do you wish to argue that rates are more progressive now than they were 20, or 30, or 40, or 50 years ago?

Or would you rather argue that raising taxes, overall, on lower income Americans while lowering them on higher income Americans is going to make things better? Since that is your position.

Rates are not flattening... a range of zero to 39% is not flat, especially when about 1/2 the populace is paying that zero or even deriving benefit back monetarily or otherwise...

And perhaps, as others have been told before NUMEROUS times, you should look at what was considered income, what was deductible, etc before when the phony "90%" rates were in effect

Funny that you and other fuckers like you complain that the rich pay less than 15%.. raising them and ensuring everyone pays a flat 15% or 20% should be something you cheer for.. as well as cheering for equality in treatment that you claim you want.. but we all know that you and your fucking ilk only want to scream for equality when it benefits you and your cause.. and you and your fucking ilk have ZERO problem treating others unequally when it benefits you and your cause

There is no zero tax bracket. Rates are based on taxable income.

Try effective rates... in our bullshit subjective system...Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households

ALL income should be taxable.. no exceptions no exclusions.. regardless of income level, situation, subjective boo hoo feeling, etrc

 

[NYcarbineer]

Rates are not flattening... a range of zero to 39% is not flat, especially when about 1/2 the populace is paying that zero or even deriving benefit back monetarily or otherwise...

And perhaps, as others have been told before NUMEROUS times, you should look at what was considered income, what was deductible, etc before when the phony "90%" rates were in effect

Funny that you and other fuckers like you complain that the rich pay less than 15%.. raising them and ensuring everyone pays a flat 15% or 20% should be something you cheer for.. as well as cheering for equality in treatment that you claim you want.. but we all know that you and your fucking ilk only want to scream for equality when it benefits you and your cause.. and you and your fucking ilk have ZERO problem treating others unequally when it benefits you and your cause

There is no zero tax bracket. Rates are based on taxable income.

Try effective rates... in our bullshit subjective system...Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households

ALL income should be taxable.. no exceptions no exclusions.. regardless of income level, situation, subjective boo hoo feeling, etrc

And if we were to equalize those effective tax rates across the quintiles, taxes on the richer go down,

taxes on the poorer go up.

The question remains:

Setting aside some ethereal notion of 'fair', how does our current society get better if we make the above change that you want?

 

[percysunshine]

There is no zero tax bracket. Rates are based on taxable income.

Try effective rates... in our bullshit subjective system...Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households

ALL income should be taxable.. no exceptions no exclusions.. regardless of income level, situation, subjective boo hoo feeling, etrc

And if we were to equalize those effective tax rates across the quintiles, taxes on the richer go down,

taxes on the poorer go up.

The question remains:

Setting aside some ethereal notion of 'fair', how does our current society get better if we make the above change that you want?

There would be no need for the IRS. An arguably improved state of society.

 

[DiamondDave]

There is no zero tax bracket. Rates are based on taxable income.

Try effective rates... in our bullshit subjective system...Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households

ALL income should be taxable.. no exceptions no exclusions.. regardless of income level, situation, subjective boo hoo feeling, etrc

And if we were to equalize those effective tax rates across the quintiles, taxes on the richer go down,

taxes on the poorer go up.

The question remains:

Setting aside some ethereal notion of 'fair', how does our current society get better if we make the above change that you want?

Again, you imbecile, there should NEVER have been a time where it was allowed to become unequal... you don't want to reduce the % for the 'rich', just have everyone pay their rate without deduction, exception, exemption, etc... and see how the big government spending programs start to have more opposition when people actually have to pay for them instead of having others pay for them

When you have equality in treatment and you have everyone with a stake in the game, government loses pandering power and comes under more scrutiny.. which is a GOOD thing.. hell, it is a GREAT thing

 

[kaz]

If you do not raise the debt ceiling when it's hit, that borrowing necessarily must come down to zero;

that means a third of what the government is currently spending has to stop

Eliminate Social Security, Medicare and all other welfare programs. Eliminate all foreign aid.

Start shutting down all overseas bases and bringing the troops home, cut military spending in half and focus it on defense of the United States.

Eliminate departments starting with energy, health and human services, education.

Free energy companies to develop US resources so taxes soar.

Eliminate corporate taxes so we become a tax haven and a jobs engine.

Since your proposals are nothing more than a demented fantasy, I will take that answer to mean that you have no real world feasibly workable idea of how to cut a third out of current spending.

Your question is a catch 22. How do I fix the problem without addressing the problem?

You're right, I can't. Neither can you, which is why you chose your priority, making the Federal government a welfare engine even if it means destroying the economy in the process.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Eliminate Social Security, Medicare and all other welfare programs. Eliminate all foreign aid.

Start shutting down all overseas bases and bringing the troops home, cut military spending in half and focus it on defense of the United States.

Eliminate departments starting with energy, health and human services, education.

Free energy companies to develop US resources so taxes soar.

Eliminate corporate taxes so we become a tax haven and a jobs engine.

Since your proposals are nothing more than a demented fantasy, I will take that answer to mean that you have no real world feasibly workable idea of how to cut a third out of current spending.

Your question is a catch 22. How do I fix the problem without addressing the problem?

You're right, I can't. Neither can you, which is why you chose your priority, making the Federal government a welfare engine even if it means destroying the economy in the process.

I support not initiating any new spending that is not paid for with new taxes, and not initiating any new tax cuts that are not paid for with reduced spending,

and letting us grow out of the deficit.

 

[kaz]

I support not initiating any new spending that is not paid for with new taxes, and not initiating any new tax cuts that are not paid for with reduced spending,

and letting us grow out of the deficit.

My fantasy is shared by a group of people who wrote a document 215 years ago detailing how their fantasy should work.

What's truly a fantasy though is your idea that you can at the same time endlessly keep your foot on the floor of increased government spending while at the same time taking the gas from the engine that feeds the economy by taking it from the evil rich and the evil corporations who drive productivity and provide jobs.

Actually for what you are doing fantasy isn't the word. The word is delusion. And no matter how bad the economy gets, you don't even start to question why what you are doing doesn't ever lead to what you say will happen.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Try effective rates... in our bullshit subjective system...Historical Average Federal Tax Rates for All Households

ALL income should be taxable.. no exceptions no exclusions.. regardless of income level, situation, subjective boo hoo feeling, etrc

And if we were to equalize those effective tax rates across the quintiles, taxes on the richer go down,

taxes on the poorer go up.

The question remains:

Setting aside some ethereal notion of 'fair', how does our current society get better if we make the above change that you want?

Again, you imbecile, there should NEVER have been a time where it was allowed to become unequal... you don't want to reduce the % for the 'rich', just have everyone pay their rate without deduction, exception, exemption, etc... and see how the big government spending programs start to have more opposition when people actually have to pay for them instead of having others pay for them

When you have equality in treatment and you have everyone with a stake in the game, government loses pandering power and comes under more scrutiny.. which is a GOOD thing.. hell, it is a GREAT thing

Flat rates aren't 'equal'. At 10% a person making 40,000 pays $4000 in tax. A person making 400,000 pays $40,000. Ten times the tax the first person pays. How is that equal?

 

[kaz]

Flat rates aren't 'equal'. At 10% a person making 40,000 pays $4000 in tax. A person making 400,000 pays $40,000. Ten times the tax the first person pays. How is that equal?

Flat tax means flat rate, not a flat payment amount.

It's an alternative to our ridiculous progressive system, which is a combination of increasing tax rates offset by deductions. You eliminate the deductions and the increasing rates and it's a far simpler calculation.

Though it's not as simple as the flat taxers say because it only flattens income rates, it doesn't eliminate all the other taxes and you still have to figure out your investment taxes.

 

[DiamondDave]

And if we were to equalize those effective tax rates across the quintiles, taxes on the richer go down,

taxes on the poorer go up.

The question remains:

Setting aside some ethereal notion of 'fair', how does our current society get better if we make the above change that you want?

Again, you imbecile, there should NEVER have been a time where it was allowed to become unequal... you don't want to reduce the % for the 'rich', just have everyone pay their rate without deduction, exception, exemption, etc... and see how the big government spending programs start to have more opposition when people actually have to pay for them instead of having others pay for them

When you have equality in treatment and you have everyone with a stake in the game, government loses pandering power and comes under more scrutiny.. which is a GOOD thing.. hell, it is a GREAT thing

Flat rates aren't 'equal'. At 10% a person making 40,000 pays $4000 in tax. A person making 400,000 pays $40,000. Ten times the tax the first person pays. How is that equal?

Are you seriously this much of an idiot?? (well, we know you are, but the question had to be asked for emphasis)

A flat tax is an equal rate on every dollar earned... just like a sales tax...

You earn $10, and in a flat tax system you pay the same rate on every dollar as everyone else... blind to situation, locality, sex, creed, race, or whatever else...

10% rate.. 10% of your income goes to taxation just as 10% of everyone else's

 

[NYcarbineer]

Flat rates aren't 'equal'. At 10% a person making 40,000 pays $4000 in tax. A person making 400,000 pays $40,000. Ten times the tax the first person pays. How is that equal?

Flat tax means flat rate, not a flat payment amount.

It's an alternative to our ridiculous progressive system, which is a combination of increasing tax rates offset by deductions. You eliminate the deductions and the increasing rates and it's a far simpler calculation.

Though it's not as simple as the flat taxers say because it only flattens income rates, it doesn't eliminate all the other taxes and you still have to figure out your investment taxes.

Well people go on and on about how fair the flat tax is supposed to be. Paying ten times more for your government than someone else pays for their government isn't 'fair', if 'fair' were the real issue.

You can simplify the tax code without flattening it. The calculation on how much you owe is just as easy with progressive rates as it is with a flat rate; the tax tables are based on the progressive rates,

all you have to do is look up your tax.

 

[DiamondDave]

Flat rates aren't 'equal'. At 10% a person making 40,000 pays $4000 in tax. A person making 400,000 pays $40,000. Ten times the tax the first person pays. How is that equal?

Flat tax means flat rate, not a flat payment amount.

It's an alternative to our ridiculous progressive system, which is a combination of increasing tax rates offset by deductions. You eliminate the deductions and the increasing rates and it's a far simpler calculation.

Though it's not as simple as the flat taxers say because it only flattens income rates, it doesn't eliminate all the other taxes and you still have to figure out your investment taxes.

Interest or investment income should be taxed the same as all other income.. again, equality in treatment, blind to situation, etc

As for other taxes, even though I may not agree with having them, as long as they are equal in application and treatment I am not going to argue their validity in a society where we are supposed to strive for equal treatment

 

[DiamondDave]

Flat rates aren't 'equal'. At 10% a person making 40,000 pays $4000 in tax. A person making 400,000 pays $40,000. Ten times the tax the first person pays. How is that equal?

Flat tax means flat rate, not a flat payment amount.

It's an alternative to our ridiculous progressive system, which is a combination of increasing tax rates offset by deductions. You eliminate the deductions and the increasing rates and it's a far simpler calculation.

Though it's not as simple as the flat taxers say because it only flattens income rates, it doesn't eliminate all the other taxes and you still have to figure out your investment taxes.

Well people go on and on about how fair the flat tax is supposed to be. Paying ten times more for your government than someone else pays for their government isn't 'fair', if 'fair' were the real issue.

You can simplify the tax code without flattening it. The calculation on how much you owe is just as easy with progressive rates as it is with a flat rate; the tax tables are based on the progressive rates,

all you have to do is look up your tax.

Fair is SUBJECTIVE.. for the BILLIONTH time.. it is not about FAIR.. it is about equality in application and treatment

Progressive tax system, by definition, is about unequal treatment by government under law