Who should be responsible for pension bills in Detroit?

[kaz]

The unions negotiated deals they should have known the city could not keep. The city goes bankrupt, tough luck. Union pensions shouldn't be any different from any other creditor in bankruptcy.

I agree. In Detroit, as well as the rest of local, State and Federal government, there is no money. Detroit promised their workers in the 60s, 70s, 80s that the taxpayers of the 2010s would come up with the money to pay them. What is different is that if a private company went bust, their pensions would have already been funded by the company. Don't you love it? Government once again follows it's own rules. Not. Try getting a government P&L based on accrual accounting. People would see how in the hole we really are.

And Social Security is the same. There is no money to pay for it, future taxpayers are going to pay for your retirement through taxes. That is what Democrats refer to as a "trust" fund. Not sure why their kids would trust them when they realize that. If politicians keep running down the economy, where's that money going to come from? Ask the city of Detroit retirees. Even Democrats should start to realize their plan to bankrupt us isn't actually a good idea even for their own greedy hands.

 

[The Rabbi]

In the '90s companies started moving from a defined benefit pension system to defined contribution plan. The soaring costs of retirement made that necessary. The only ones still on defined benefit are gov't workers.
That says it all right there.

 

[OriginalShroom]

As a huge supporter of State's rights .. I also support State Responsibilities.

I also support City Rights and City Responsibilities.

The City had the "right" to make these Contracts, so now it is up to the City.. Not the State or the Federal Government.. to either keep up their end of the bargin or declare bankruptcy and do what they need to do.

If the State wants to help the City, they can.

HOWEVER, I draw the line there. We should never consider Federalizing a City, which is would it would require for the Federal Government to bail out Detroit.


BTW, anyone remember the original movie Robocop? Remember why they had him "built"?

 

[billyerock1991]

if the republicans touch their pension you can bet your bottom dollar they will lose big time in this next election ...

 

[Claudette]

In the '90s companies started moving from a defined benefit pension system to defined contribution plan. The soaring costs of retirement made that necessary. The only ones still on defined benefit are gov't workers.
That says it all right there.

You bet We taxpayers will pay their retirement.

We may get hosed on our retirment but you can bet your ass the govt workers and Congress will always get theirs.

AS for Detroit? The Govt in Detroit made its bed and now they will have to lay in it. To bad for the taxpayers of Detroit but its their problem not the problem of the rest of America.

FDR had it right. Public sector workers should never be unionized. Just look at Detroit and just about every other major city. How fucking right that man was.

 

[billyerock1991]

Fuck You!!! - No one chipped in when my retirement money went up in smoke.

Try to rise above your bitterness and help others in need.

I give to & help people every day for free. It's about time these scammers learn to give instead of take, take, take, take!!!!!

They were well paid for their work. Stop bleeding us dry.

here is the typical uninformed republican .... he loses his retirement and doesn't know why ... he feels all of his retirement went to welfare, food stamps, and other programs that help the needy ... if he pulled his head out of his ass, and did a little research, he would realize it was cause by all of the out sourcing of jobs, in many cases, the deregulation of the banks and insurers ... now he tell you "fuck you", that you should suffer too because of his own stupidity... just because he was too stupid to realized it was the republicans who fucked his retirement up... here yesterday Boehner said they have been blocking jobs because they want the dems to fail ... they want to control the white house .... they don't care what or how many people lose .... These republicans keeps telling us "fuck you", just because they are too stupid to realized it was the republicans who have them bent over, shoving it in as hard as they can while picking their retirement pockets ...

 

[billyerock1991]

Fuck You!!! - No one chipped in when my retirement money went up in smoke.

Try to rise above your bitterness and help others in need.

a lot of them bitter clingers originated in the DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit....

you haven't changed one bit ... still stupid as ever ... you're telling us that if Detroit hires more teacher, police and firemen by doing this they will fail .... your telling us here that if Detroit give huge tax breaks to corporation to come to Detroit, that won't help ... what you're telling us if we increase the Tax base that Detroit will fail ... like I said you haven't changed one bit ... you're still stupid as ever, because, how did you say it DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit ... it wasn't the dems who sold out American ... it was the republicans and their damn deregulation plans that screw us big time ... it wasn't the dems in Detroit who deregulated the country, who allowed companies to be out sourced by the bills these republicans passed ... now you're trying to tell us that the state government dems are the problem that put them in the state they are in??? yep, you're still stupid as ever

 

[Wyatt earp]

Try to rise above your bitterness and help others in need.

a lot of them bitter clingers originated in the DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit....

you haven't changed one bit ... still stupid as ever ... you're telling us that if Detroit hires more teacher, police and firemen by doing this they will fail .... your telling us here that if Detroit give huge tax breaks to corporation to come to Detroit, that won't help ... what you're telling us if we increase the Tax base that Detroit will fail ... like I said you haven't changed one bit ... you're still stupid as ever, because, how did you say it DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit ... it wasn't the dems who sold out American ... it was the republicans and their damn deregulation plans that screw us big time ... it wasn't the dems in Detroit who deregulated the country, who allowed companies to be out sourced by the bills these republicans passed ... now you're trying to tell us that the state government dems are the problem that put them in the state they are in??? yep, you're still stupid as ever

So a fool does come on here, just a question why did 300,000 Detroit manufacturing jobs go to southern states? how come detroit didnt pass a law that they couldnt move, had to pay high taxes and high labor costs?

 

[Edgetho]

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters. Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable.

That was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Not Ronald Reagan or George Bush.

He was a Democrat.

But dimocrap scum saw a way to enshrine themselves in power forever and ever by using inflated Union wages, paid for with Taxpayor money.

And to guarantee themselves a virtually endless supply of campaign cash.... Paid for with Taxpayor money.

You people should look up the history of Public Sector Unions. It's really a relatively new phenomena, invented by scumbag dimocrap corruptocrats to control the reins of political power in Cities to the exclusion of all others.

Last Republican Mayor of Dee-Troit? 51 years ago. Louis Miriani, served from 1957-1962.

Almost perfect timing of when Dee-Troit started to turn the corner from one of the wealthiest Cities, with one of the most affluent populations on Earth into a dimocrap pus hole.

Didja know (of course not) that before the dimocrap-fostered riots of 1967, BLACK People in Detroit had the highest Home Ownership rate of any Black Urban population in the Country?

And that the Black Unemployment rate was 3.9%......?

Of course you didn't.

Do I feel sorry for them? Not a goddamned bit.

They made their choice. Now, even if they own a home it ain't worth anything. And the Black Unemployment rate in Dee-Troit? Off the scale. Nobody really even knows. Some say it's as high as 50%. Others say 60%. The official statistics don't even begin to state the problem accurately but using even those, it's still three times what it was.

As to the Employees, Pensioners and Retirees of Dee-Troit?

Fuck 'em.

These people aren't victims, they're willing accomplices. They drove the get-away car as the Unions and dimocrap scum politicians were holding up the taxpayers.

And they were more than willing to accept their cut of the take.

No pity. No mercy. No feelings. They made their beds, let them sleep in them

 

[Toro]

For those who understand why there is no such thing as a social security trust fund, this is going to scare the snot out of you. For those who believe in the fantasy land belief that government loaning itself money is an asset, nothing is going to get through to you anyway, so just have a cookie and smile. However, here is the reality.

All those years of negotiations between government workers at the local, State and Federal level, including and particularly teachers, the reality is that government never saved a dime to pay for it. Just like social security, all those retirements were simply promised against future taxpayer money. And like Social Security, IOUs from government to itself were written. My mother was a physical therapist for the Kalamazoo school system, and she’s learning now that there are no assets behind her pension as well.

Which is why those plans are so generous. The people who promised them didn’t pay for them, and they knew they’d be long gone before the bills came due. Guess what, they are coming due. It’s not just social security that was unfunded by our parents, it’s every one of those workers, who are now coming to us to make good on promises that were made with no money to back it up.

None of this information is new. All the contracts were negotiated and agreed to by the unions without any of the governments putting up dime one to fund them. And it was public information, no one wanted to think about it. So, who should be responsible for this?

- Workers who looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them?

- Today’s taxpayer who wasn’t involved at all.

Yes, it’s too bad. But taxpayers should not be stuck with other people’s bills just because we feel sorry for them. The fact is they worked for employers and were promised pensions without anything being saved to cover them. Private sector pensions have minimum funding requirements. Government sector pensions have none. They were planning to stick us for the bill. The bureaucrats knew they’d be gone, the union reps liked telling their members what great benefits they negotiated.

It’s too bad, but it’s not our problem. Government, BTW is still doing it. When some lame Democrat says we need to bail them out, tell them to fix the hole in the boat first.

There are a lot of things that are wrong in this thread, kaz.

- Governments generally do fund their pension funds. To say that there is "nothing there" is wrong. Detroit lent itself money from the fund. That's bad. But that's rare. Most funds are underfunded, but that doesn't mean there is nothing there.

- It's absolutely true that there is an incentive problem between unions and elected officials. And it is a big reason why there are problems in government pensions. Often though, the problem is also governments not making the contributions they promise, even in good times. Republicans are probably more guilty of this than Democrats. In the 1990s, when the stock market was booming, politicians gave themselves contribution holidays because the funds were doing so well. That way they could look like heroes by saying they were "cutting taxes." So rather than building up the value of the funds in good times in preparation for recessions down the road, tax-cutting heroes damaged their funds in the future.

- Private sector pensions may have minimum funding requirements but taxpayers bail out corporate pension funds as well. Google PBGC.

 

[ba1614]

I figure anyone who didn't leave that hole 20yrs ago deserves what they get.

 

[editec]

NEWS FLASH

the United States of America is NOT the city of DETROIT.​

 

[ba1614]

NEWS FLASH

the United States of America is NOT the city of DETROIT.​

But obummer is working on it.

 

[Toro]

One other thing, we can debate whether or not SS is real, but there is no question that government pension plans are real. The SS trusts are essentially accounting entries tracking liabilities. Government pension plans have a staff that invests the money. The two aren't comparable.

 

[billyerock1991]

a lot of them bitter clingers originated in the DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit....

you haven't changed one bit ... still stupid as ever ... you're telling us that if Detroit hires more teacher, police and firemen by doing this they will fail .... your telling us here that if Detroit give huge tax breaks to corporation to come to Detroit, that won't help ... what you're telling us if we increase the Tax base that Detroit will fail ... like I said you haven't changed one bit ... you're still stupid as ever, because, how did you say it DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit ... it wasn't the dems who sold out American ... it was the republicans and their damn deregulation plans that screw us big time ... it wasn't the dems in Detroit who deregulated the country, who allowed companies to be out sourced by the bills these republicans passed ... now you're trying to tell us that the state government dems are the problem that put them in the state they are in??? yep, you're still stupid as ever

So a fool does come on here, just a question why did 300,000 Detroit manufacturing jobs go to southern states? how come detroit didnt pass a law that they couldnt move, had to pay high taxes and high labor costs?

you need a new source of information cause yours if fucked big time

 

[billyerock1991]

a lot of them bitter clingers originated in the DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit....

you haven't changed one bit ... still stupid as ever ... you're telling us that if Detroit hires more teacher, police and firemen by doing this they will fail .... your telling us here that if Detroit give huge tax breaks to corporation to come to Detroit, that won't help ... what you're telling us if we increase the Tax base that Detroit will fail ... like I said you haven't changed one bit ... you're still stupid as ever, because, how did you say it DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit ... it wasn't the dems who sold out American ... it was the republicans and their damn deregulation plans that screw us big time ... it wasn't the dems in Detroit who deregulated the country, who allowed companies to be out sourced by the bills these republicans passed ... now you're trying to tell us that the state government dems are the problem that put them in the state they are in??? yep, you're still stupid as ever

So a fool does come on here, just a question why did 300,000 Detroit manufacturing jobs go to southern states? how come detroit didnt pass a law that they couldnt move, had to pay high taxes and high labor costs?

one other thing ... if 300,000 detriot jobs went to southern states, as you are trying to imply here, which we with a brain know they did not... then we wouldn't have any job problems in the south now would we .... I mean all the people in the south would be employed and making all their house hold expenses ... buying homes up the ass t ??? there no unemployment in the south right ??? You are as stupid as you post ... and a biggher fool then I ... 300,000 jobs to the south .... BWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thats the best one I've heard today ....

 

[billyerock1991]

State limits on outsourcing right step
By Walter Mabry

When it comes to saving American jobs and keeping work in our country, it is reassuring to know that Michigan government still believes in our state.
Specifically regarding outsourcing, the practice of hiring an outside firm to do the work for a company or agency, Gov. Jennifer Granholm made an effort to put a stop to the recent trend through signing two executive directives in March that aimed to give preference to Michigan companies for state contracts.
Considering current economic times, this comes as a sign of hope in an age where the integrity of state labor is often compromised for cheap, cost-effective overseas jobs. Despite the promise of Granholm's efforts, there is still much that needs to be done in order to make sure an end is brought to outsourcing.
Michigan was one of 36 states that considered passing laws to ban state contracts to companies that send work overseas. Currently, our Legislature is reviewing the two bills that would limit state contracts to American workers only, preferably in Michigan, and their future remains to be seen.
It is true that there are mixed opinions concerning this issue. Sadly, certain groups are contributing to the disappearance of domestic jobs by seeking out the cheapest labor available overseas. The Michigan economy suffers from such decisions, and the preservation of local jobs is being put in jeopardy.
Where have our American ideals gone? It is our duty to invest in our country and support our labor industry that fuels our economy and shapes our society.
Since 2000, 300,000 Michigan jobs have been lost. Furthermore, an Associated Press poll conducted in May found that 69 percent of Americans believe that outsourcing hurts the U.S. economy, and 58 percent of American workers supported the idea of the federal government penalizing companies that send work overseas. Clearly, a majority of America feels that such practice is wrong, serving as proof that the decisions of certain company executives go against American beliefs.
Since government is employed by Americans, shouldn't government work to preserve the jobs of its constituents? American jobs are not only the backbone of our economy, but also provide opportunity, which is the promise our nation was founded upon. As the future of our jobs is put in greater danger, our government needs to set an example by putting an end to outsourcing and making a commitment to employ the people it is supposed to be serving.
Walter Mabry is the executive secretary/treasurer of the Detroit-based Michigan Regional Council of Carpenters and Millwrights.

 

[Edgetho]

Here's a perfect example of how dimocraps can fuck up a one-car funeral.

Here's PROOF that dimocraps are dishonest, corrupt, lying, thieving scum.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/12/u...-of-detroit-convicted-in-corruption-case.html

DETROIT — Kwame M. Kilpatrick, a former mayor of Detroit, was found guilty on Monday of a raft of charges, including racketeering, fraud and extortion, capping a five-month public corruption trial against him and two co-defendants.

The jury found Mr. Kilpatrick guilty of 24 of the 30 charges against him, including the most serious charges of racketeering and extortion, which each carry maximum sentences of 20 years.

At an afternoon bond hearing, Mr. Kilpatrick and Bobby W. Ferguson, a city contractor, appeared stunned after being ordered to prison pending sentencing. Judge Nancy G. Edmunds cited the possible risk of fleeing and danger to the community. No sentencing date was set.

dimocraps lie, it's what they do.

dimocraps steal, it's what they do.

dimocraps create shit from good, it's what they do.

dimocraps destroy, it's what they do.

NEVER trust a dimocrap.

This particular scumbag was Mayor until 2008.

He's no different from any of the rest of the scumbag dimocraps that held office before or since except that...

He got caught

Never.

 

[billyerock1991]

Here's a perfect example of how dimocraps can fuck up a one-car funeral.

Here's PROOF that dimocraps are dishonest, corrupt, lying, thieving scum.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/12/u...-of-detroit-convicted-in-corruption-case.html

DETROIT — Kwame M. Kilpatrick, a former mayor of Detroit, was found guilty on Monday of a raft of charges, including racketeering, fraud and extortion, capping a five-month public corruption trial against him and two co-defendants.

The jury found Mr. Kilpatrick guilty of 24 of the 30 charges against him, including the most serious charges of racketeering and extortion, which each carry maximum sentences of 20 years.

At an afternoon bond hearing, Mr. Kilpatrick and Bobby W. Ferguson, a city contractor, appeared stunned after being ordered to prison pending sentencing. Judge Nancy G. Edmunds cited the possible risk of fleeing and danger to the community. No sentencing date was set.

dimocraps lie, it's what they do.

dimocraps steal, it's what they do.

dimocraps create shit from good, it's what they do.

dimocraps destroy, it's what they do.

NEVER trust a dimocrap.

This particular scumbag was Mayor until 2008.

He's no different from any of the rest of the scumbag dimocraps that held office before or since except that...

He got caught

Never.

what the hell does this have to do with detroit going bankrupt ???? here's a clue .... it doesn't have anything to do with it ... if you want to ,go tit for tat the facts are for every dem who has been caught in a criminal action in any state, there ate 10 republicans who have been caught in criminal actions too ... why you republicans insist in these shiny objects is beyond me ... I guess you can refute anything that I've posted so out comes the shiny object ... look at the governor Of Virgina his days are numbered here yoiu have one guy saying 300,000 jobs when to the south, but they just can't seem to point out where these 300,000 jobs went ... another claims that because the dems ran detroit that's the reason they went bankrupt ... but they just can't seem to tell you why these 300,000 companies left the state ...these republicans won't tell you why??? if they did tell you the real truth why, instead of these shiny object you love to through out here to change the subject ... if they found out the real truth that republicans are lining their pockets, more people would become dems ...

 

[billyerock1991]

you have a governor who is cutting the tax base as fast as he can now you are try to say to us here the Mayer in 2008 is the reason they went bankrupt ... get that republican ring out of your nose but fist pull you head out of your ass