Who should be responsible for pension bills in Detroit?

[The Rabbi]

Of course you can't have a conversation with liberals. They lie. When challenged they come up with a bigger lie. Everyone knowledgeable knows what happened with Detroit. As the city got smaller, the government got bigger. As the tax base fell away the benefits increased. It happened in Detroit and the same thing happened in 36 other cities during the obama years.

No no. It was Bush's fault. He sent all those jobs overseas to places like Alabama and South Carolina. And then the rich Republican bankers loaned money to the city they knew couldn't be paid back because of racism.
Didnt you get the memo?

 

[kaz]

There are a lot of things that are wrong in this thread, kaz.

- Governments generally do fund their pension funds. To say that there is "nothing there" is wrong. Detroit lent itself money from the fund. That's bad. But that's rare. Most funds are underfunded, but that doesn't mean there is nothing there.

- It's absolutely true that there is an incentive problem between unions and elected officials. And it is a big reason why there are problems in government pensions. Often though, the problem is also governments not making the contributions they promise, even in good times. Republicans are probably more guilty of this than Democrats. In the 1990s, when the stock market was booming, politicians gave themselves contribution holidays because the funds were doing so well. That way they could look like heroes by saying they were "cutting taxes." So rather than building up the value of the funds in good times in preparation for recessions down the road, tax-cutting heroes damaged their funds in the future.

- Private sector pensions may have minimum funding requirements but taxpayers bail out corporate pension funds as well. Google PBGC.

You mean central planning doesn't work? Well, gosh, Walley I had no idea....


And there is nothing rare about politicians "lending themselves" money from supposed funds. It's actually the name of the game. Social Security being the largest of all the socialist boondoggles in the US.

Exactly. If you did a balance sheet on the treasury, you'd have an asset of social security notes issued from the Government to itself, and you'd have debt to pay off the notes. Net zero.

Furthermore, we aren't even talking different Federal funds, social security is part of the general fund.

And in a real sense, who pays Federal Taxes? It goes from today's taxpayers to the general treasury. Who pays social security taxes? It goes from today's taxpayer to the treasury. Our parents saved zip, now they are sending us bills as if they did.

I've learned to appreciate Toro, he's a good guy. But this has been a long standing debate we've had. He and I lived in NY and worked on Wall Street and spent our career largely in Financial Services. He says it's an asset, it's just not how he'd do it. If you have an asset equal to a liability on your balance sheet and the same people are paying it, how that means our parents left us a "trust fund" to pay their social security is nonsense.

 

[billyerock1991]

No one is going to "touch" anything.
What the fuck are you blabbering about.
Oh, BTW, there aren't enough people who support unions or even belong to them to make a difference in an election.
In other words, new guy, there are a lot more Michigan voters who are NOT union members than are. There are many times more people who are getting fleeced than those on the receiving end.
Do you really think union people have the kind of voting clout to influence an election?
Come one. Get out of the 1950's. Unions are dead. Defined benefit pensions are dead.
Ya wanna know why the good old days are referred to as 'old"? Because they ARE old.
As in over. Move on.
Whatever problems unions face today are of their own doing. On the public side, unions got onto the gravy train with union friendly politicians driving the train. As with any perk, the people paying for the perk soon find out they are getting little or nothing in return. In this case, the taxpayers got wise to the incredible wages and benefits unionized public workers were getting, while their taxes were going through the roof and the economy was not permitting private sector business to invest in higher wages.
Unions destroyed themselves over pure unadulterated greed.
We are kicking them out.
Pensions? Those people should be lucky to find they have jobs. Never mind the pensions. Those are gone.

its apparent you haven't been listening to the news ...the governor Of Michigan is trying to take the money out of the unions retirement fund to pay for Detroits debt ... that's what the fuck we are talking about .... if you watched something other then FOX news for idiots, oh and by the way, the Union workers invest their retirement along with the companies investment ... so what you're saying here, just because you got fuck, because you voted for a republican and lost your ass in your retirement, you think everybody else should be stupid like you and vote for republicans so they too can lose their retirement ... thank god for whack jobs like you... you stick out like a sore thumb .... that's usually up your ass

The Michigan Governor is trying to take money from Union Pension funds to pay a City Debt?

What do you use for brains? Seriously.

This is what I mean about dimocraps... They just fucking lie about everything.

Can't have a conversation with them. You spend 90% of your time knocking down their bald-faced lies.now you know what is like talking to a republican if they aren't interupting you they try to shout over you

And then when you do prove that they're liars and idiots, you can expect them to start throwing their own feces at you like Monkeys in cage.can't stand it when you're out smarted can ya ... you haven't yet prove any one here as a liar but love to think you can...

Except the Monkeys are smarter. By a wide margin.

this is true ... monkeys are way smarter then any republican ever could be


what do you use for fucking brains ... their Pension funds does not belong to the state ... they belong to the workers ... where the hell do you get off thinking that every time a corporation or a state government gets into financial trouble that they get to take it from the workers Pension funds is beyond me ...

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

Chip in for all the great Motown contributions and memories.

Typical LIBRUL moron^^

Libruls fuck up something, the rest of you should be responsible! It's no different with the abortion debate.. If some girl gets herself pregnant from spreading wide, it's all of our responsibility. LIBRULS ARE LOONS.. Plain and simple. It's past time we let them be responsible for their own SHITCAKES. Congress appropriates money, NOT god Obama.. Sit on that one for a while.

 

[Katzndogz]

Of course you can't have a conversation with liberals. They lie. When challenged they come up with a bigger lie. Everyone knowledgeable knows what happened with Detroit. As the city got smaller, the government got bigger. As the tax base fell away the benefits increased. It happened in Detroit and the same thing happened in 36 other cities during the obama years.

No no. It was Bush's fault. He sent all those jobs overseas to places like Alabama and South Carolina. And then the rich Republican bankers loaned money to the city they knew couldn't be paid back because of racism.
Didnt you get the memo?

I used the memo for toilet paper.

This is why Detroit's problems cannot be fixed. No city with similar problems can be fixed. The causes of the financial destruction aren't recognized. Or, maybe they are and the massive ignorance displayed are just from those few with an information level that low. Why ever liberals come up with nonsense is immaterial. It might just have nothing to do with reality. They might know that what they are spouting off is just untrue, it's an excuse to spout off. They'll lie about anything and everything.

 

[billyerock1991]

Of course you can't have a conversation with liberals. They lie. When challenged they come up with a bigger lie. Everyone knowledgeable knows what happened with Detroit. As the city got smaller, the government got bigger. As the tax base fell away the benefits increased. It happened in Detroit and the same thing happened in 36 other cities during the obama years.

its always a lie when you can't refute it ... isn't it ...

 

[Edgetho]

my brother-in-law worked for john dear until he retired ... all of his benefits that he has now comes from his retirement health care income ... when they laid off you notified Unemployment but the unions paid the unemployment not just the employer .... this is one union that I personally know of ... so the fact that you asked why doesn't the union pay they do....

See that's where you are wrong. All unions have strike/layoff/unemployment contingencies written into their contracts with the workers.
That's not what I am referring to.
Here, let me make this simple.
The city of Detroit pay the workers wages, pays for their benefits, pays for the pensions. The workers however are union FIRST, employer second. That said, with the city unable to meet its fiscal obligations, then let the workers go to the unions for their pay and benefits. The union has all the money anyway.
I see you are a true believer when it pertains to unions. That's fine. It's also unrealistic.
Unions are dying. And for good reason. They are vastly unpopular. Unions drive up the cost of doing business to the point where unionized companies costs make the business non-competitive.
50 years ago, nearly one third of all American workers were members of unions. Today that is down to just over 7%. That number continues to drop.
And that is a good thing.

its apparent you don't seem to comprehend much ... the employee of the unions in detroit also pay into their retirement fund.... they are dying because of these states that are controlled by the republican party has passed "right to work laws" ... they have just recently passed where you can't use collective bargaining in Wisconsin where you have corporations funding politicians to make sure they can't have collective bargaining ... unions aren't dying because people don't like them, they are dying because of laws being passed by the republican party ...

The only laws I'm aware of that could even possibly be considered anti-Union are laws stopping the MANDATORY deduction of Union wages from people's paychecks. Whether they want to belong to a Union or not.

So, the Wisconsin Teachers Union has lost HALF of its membership because Governor Walker got that Law passed.

Seems like, unless people are FORCED to join a Union, about half of them won't.

But that's what dimocrap scum are about anyway -- Force.

BTW, Michigan became a Right To Work State in 2011 and the State is coming back.

Dee-Troit? Not so much. They're hopeless. Too many dimocrap scum.

Better just to burn the City to the ground --

But then you know what problem that would create? Where would all the dimocrap scum who live there go?

Gotta keep them somewhere. I vote for Dee-Troit. And Cleveland. And Hotlanta. And Chicago.

They're all pus holes anyway. They deserve each other

 

[kaz]

Of course you can't have a conversation with liberals. They lie. When challenged they come up with a bigger lie. Everyone knowledgeable knows what happened with Detroit. As the city got smaller, the government got bigger. As the tax base fell away the benefits increased. It happened in Detroit and the same thing happened in 36 other cities during the obama years.

its always a lie when you can't refute it ... isn't it ...

You can't "refute" liberal views? Please, you can't support them. The only time you can't refute them is when liberals get so incoherent and contradictory you can't even grasp what they are trying to say. Hmmm....I'm starting to see your point...

 

[billyerock1991]

a lot of them bitter clingers originated in the DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit....

you haven't changed one bit ... still stupid as ever ... you're telling us that if Detroit hires more teacher, police and firemen by doing this they will fail .... your telling us here that if Detroit give huge tax breaks to corporation to come to Detroit, that won't help ... what you're telling us if we increase the Tax base that Detroit will fail ... like I said you haven't changed one bit ... you're still stupid as ever, because, how did you say it DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit ... it wasn't the dems who sold out American ... it was the republicans and their damn deregulation plans that screw us big time ... it wasn't the dems in Detroit who deregulated the country, who allowed companies to be out sourced by the bills these republicans passed ... now you're trying to tell us that the state government dems are the problem that put them in the state they are in??? yep, you're still stupid as ever

No you stupid A-hole....what i'm telling you is Dumbass Democrats and their stupid leftist policies created the cesspool that is Detroit....

What did the Dumbass Democrats do for 50 fucking years.....after the last Republican left in 1961.....? i'll tell you....

first they elected a Dumbass Democrat named Jerome Cavanaugh as their new mayor....

Cavanaugh brought in his "Model City" program......this was a Soviet-style plan to transform areas of the city with the "rich" paying for it by increasing their income taxes and creating a new commuter tax.....get it?....more taxes choking the people and the government telling them how to run their businesses....

Dumbass Democrat Cavanaugh's Soviet-style "Model City" plan was a complete flop.....

But Dumbass Detroiters kept on electing Dumbass Democrats....

Dumbass Democrat Coleman Young was mayor from 1974 to 1993.....he was an actual member of the Communist Party....and of course he helped the downward spiral with his 'progressive' policies....over half the people in Detroit left........Coleman Young even defended his police chief who was convicted in 1992 of stealing 2.5 million from the city taxpayers....

then there was Dumbass Democrat Kwame Kilpatrick (2002-2008)......who was so corrupt that he pleaded guilty to two felonies and no contest to a third one....for rackateering, bribery, and tax charges...

all of these Dumbass Democrats and their Dumbass Democrat unions implemented their expensive 'progressive' policies.....complete with lavish salaries and benefit packages and giveaways to public service employees.....coupled with lax and inefficient work rules........this is what killed the proverbial 'golden goose'....and created the cesspool that is now Detroit....

here's one special example of their Dumbass 'progressive' policies and attitudes.....in 2003 a businessman/philanthropist named Robert Thompson offered $200 million to build 15 charter schools......but the 'progressive' teachers federation scuttled the deal....and the Detroit school system remains to this day a cesspool of failure...

Dumbass Democrats have had 50 fucking years to fix Detroit but their Dumbass Democrat policies are a total failure....

now it's time for a Republican to step in and try to fix things...but i'm sure the Dumbass Democrats like you will continue promoting your 'progressive' policies and fight Republican Governor Snyder tooth and nail.....as per usual....

it's time you A-holes look in the mirror and admit you're the fucking problem...

shiney objects thats all you republicans do ... so brightpath, your new screen name, cause ScreamingEagle isn't working for ya ... how do you fix something that wasn't broke in the first place for 50 years ... until the republicans(RONALD REAGAN) got in control of the country, tell us that one brightpath ... the governor hasn't any right to take retirement funds just because he hasn't been able to run his state ... all he does is cut, cut, cut, then cries there's no money to pay for our debt ... then he tries to raid the employee retirement fund for his bad leadership .... he tries to tell us all were failing because the unions is the problem ...just because he cut the hell out of gubment ... take the states income away and you can't pay for shit ... guess what brightpath, he can't pay for shit ... why he took away the states income ... with all of his cutting of gubment spending he's still in debt ... that's what you get when a republican tries to lead ... huge debts and peoploe out of work they prove it all by their little selves each and every day when in office

 

[Toro]

For those who understand why there is no such thing as a social security trust fund, this is going to scare the snot out of you. For those who believe in the fantasy land belief that government loaning itself money is an asset, nothing is going to get through to you anyway, so just have a cookie and smile. However, here is the reality.

All those years of negotiations between government workers at the local, State and Federal level, including and particularly teachers, the reality is that government never saved a dime to pay for it. Just like social security, all those retirements were simply promised against future taxpayer money. And like Social Security, IOUs from government to itself were written. My mother was a physical therapist for the Kalamazoo school system, and she’s learning now that there are no assets behind her pension as well.

Which is why those plans are so generous. The people who promised them didn’t pay for them, and they knew they’d be long gone before the bills came due. Guess what, they are coming due. It’s not just social security that was unfunded by our parents, it’s every one of those workers, who are now coming to us to make good on promises that were made with no money to back it up.

None of this information is new. All the contracts were negotiated and agreed to by the unions without any of the governments putting up dime one to fund them. And it was public information, no one wanted to think about it. So, who should be responsible for this?

-Workers who looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them?

-Today’s taxpayer who wasn’t involved at all.

Yes, it’s too bad. But taxpayers should not be stuck with other people’s bills just because we feel sorry for them. The fact is they worked for employers and were promised pensions without anything being saved to cover them. Private sector pensions have minimum funding requirements. Government sector pensions have none. They were planning to stick us for the bill. The bureaucrats knew they’d be gone, the union reps liked telling their members what great benefits they negotiated.

It’s too bad, but it’s not our problem. Government, BTW is still doing it. When some lame Democrat says we need to bail them out, tell them to fix the hole in the boat first.

There are a lot of things that are wrong in this thread, kaz.

- Governments generally do fund their pension funds. To say that there is "nothing there" is wrong. Detroit lent itself money from the fund. That's bad. But that's rare. Most funds are underfunded, but that doesn't mean there is nothing there.

When I say "pensions," I'm referring to defined benefit plans. When you say "most" are funded, I don't buy that since the largest, the Feds and the State don't fund them, and most large municipalities don't that you could ever get to "most" based on that you're already down to small to mid size cities as the only candidates. It's possible some smaller cities do, but I'd like to see some evidence. When you say Detroit "lent themselves the money" that is misleading because it sounds like they'd saved it at some point then spent it later. It's like social security, no money was ever saved. They simply issues themselves IOUs. Like social security, it was a con.

- It's absolutely true that there is an incentive problem between unions and elected officials. And it is a big reason why there are problems in government pensions. Often though, the problem is also governments not making the contributions they promise, even in good times. Republicans are probably more guilty of this than Democrats. In the 1990s, when the stock market was booming, politicians gave themselves contribution holidays because the funds were doing so well. That way they could look like heroes by saying they were "cutting taxes." So rather than building up the value of the funds in good times in preparation for recessions down the road, tax-cutting heroes damaged their funds in the future.

- Private sector pensions may have minimum funding requirements but taxpayers bail out corporate pension funds as well. Google PBGC.

Your statement is highly misleading. Private companies, as I said, have to meet funding requirements. The government is bailing out the ... difference ... if it exists. They are not eating the entire pension like they would have to do in Detroit because nothing was funded at all.

Government entities issuing themselves IOUs is not funding a pension.

You're simply incorrect Kaz. Defined benefit plans are funded. What they aren't is fully funded, ie they are 60% to 80% funded. They aren't like social security. Employers and employees contribute money to the funds which are then invested in stocks, bonds, real estate, hedge funds, private equity funds, commodities, etc. You can go to their web sites and they'll list their investments. I know of no government DB plan structured like SS.

Edit - I believe CalPERS is the largest investor in private equity in the world.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

you haven't changed one bit ... still stupid as ever ... you're telling us that if Detroit hires more teacher, police and firemen by doing this they will fail .... your telling us here that if Detroit give huge tax breaks to corporation to come to Detroit, that won't help ... what you're telling us if we increase the Tax base that Detroit will fail ... like I said you haven't changed one bit ... you're still stupid as ever, because, how did you say it DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit ... it wasn't the dems who sold out American ... it was the republicans and their damn deregulation plans that screw us big time ... it wasn't the dems in Detroit who deregulated the country, who allowed companies to be out sourced by the bills these republicans passed ... now you're trying to tell us that the state government dems are the problem that put them in the state they are in??? yep, you're still stupid as ever

No you stupid A-hole....what i'm telling you is Dumbass Democrats and their stupid leftist policies created the cesspool that is Detroit....

What did the Dumbass Democrats do for 50 fucking years.....after the last Republican left in 1961.....? i'll tell you....

first they elected a Dumbass Democrat named Jerome Cavanaugh as their new mayor....

Cavanaugh brought in his "Model City" program......this was a Soviet-style plan to transform areas of the city with the "rich" paying for it by increasing their income taxes and creating a new commuter tax.....get it?....more taxes choking the people and the government telling them how to run their businesses....

Dumbass Democrat Cavanaugh's Soviet-style "Model City" plan was a complete flop.....

But Dumbass Detroiters kept on electing Dumbass Democrats....

Dumbass Democrat Coleman Young was mayor from 1974 to 1993.....he was an actual member of the Communist Party....and of course he helped the downward spiral with his 'progressive' policies....over half the people in Detroit left........Coleman Young even defended his police chief who was convicted in 1992 of stealing 2.5 million from the city taxpayers....

then there was Dumbass Democrat Kwame Kilpatrick (2002-2008)......who was so corrupt that he pleaded guilty to two felonies and no contest to a third one....for rackateering, bribery, and tax charges...

all of these Dumbass Democrats and their Dumbass Democrat unions implemented their expensive 'progressive' policies.....complete with lavish salaries and benefit packages and giveaways to public service employees.....coupled with lax and inefficient work rules........this is what killed the proverbial 'golden goose'....and created the cesspool that is now Detroit....

here's one special example of their Dumbass 'progressive' policies and attitudes.....in 2003 a businessman/philanthropist named Robert Thompson offered $200 million to build 15 charter schools......but the 'progressive' teachers federation scuttled the deal....and the Detroit school system remains to this day a cesspool of failure...

Dumbass Democrats have had 50 fucking years to fix Detroit but their Dumbass Democrat policies are a total failure....

now it's time for a Republican to step in and try to fix things...but i'm sure the Dumbass Democrats like you will continue promoting your 'progressive' policies and fight Republican Governor Snyder tooth and nail.....as per usual....

it's time you A-holes look in the mirror and admit you're the fucking problem...

shiney objects thats all you republicans do ... so brightpath, your new screen name, cause ScreamingEagle isn't working for ya ... how do you fix something that wasn't broke in the first place for 50 years ... until the republicans(RONALD REAGAN) got in control of the country, tell us that one brightpath ... the governor hasn't any right to take retirement funds just because he hasn't been able to run his state ... all he does is cut, cut, cut, then cries there's no money to pay for our debt ... then he tries to raid the employee retirement fund for his bad leadership .... he tries to tell us all were failing because the unions is the problem ...just because he cut the hell out of gubment ... take the states income away and you can't pay for shit ... guess what brightpath, he can't pay for shit ... why he took away the states income ... with all of his cutting of gubment spending he's still in debt ... that's what you get when a republican tries to lead ... huge debts and peoploe out of work they prove it all by their little selves each and every day when in office

you just don't seem to get it numbskull......Detroit started failing back in the 60s under Dumbass Democrat Mayor Cavanaugh and his 'progressive' policies....that was 20 fucking long years before Ronald Reagan....

if you want a bailout why isn't your Messiah bailing the city of Detroit out like he did the unions....? or maybe his 'stash' isn't big enough...?

i know you lefties hate cuts.....just look at the prez you elected....he absolutely hates cuts but loves spending whenever he can just like all you 'progressives' do....in fact BO is taking the country down the same path as Detroit....

then who's gonna bail out the whole country.....?

 

[kaz]

You're simply incorrect Kaz. Defined benefit plans are funded. What they aren't is fully funded, ie they are 60% to 80% funded. They aren't like social security. Employers and employees contribute money to the funds which are then invested in stocks, bonds, real estate, hedge funds, private equity funds, commodities, etc. You can go to their web sites and they'll list their investments. I know of no government DB plan structured like SS.

Edit - I believe CalPERS is the largest investor in private equity in the world.

OK, that they are not exactly like social security and have zero assets I'll concede. However, to get to your stats, you have to assume that zero percent of their funds are reinvested in their own State bonds and I can't find any data on that.

 

[JoeBlam]

Most of the Detroit healthcare liablility will be moved into Barry-Care and thus set on the plate of all us taxpayers to cover. That's why Obama isn't saying shit about the bankruptcy because the big chunk of the shortfall moves to the "affordable" care act.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

There are a lot of things that are wrong in this thread, kaz.

- Governments generally do fund their pension funds. To say that there is "nothing there" is wrong. Detroit lent itself money from the fund. That's bad. But that's rare. Most funds are underfunded, but that doesn't mean there is nothing there.

When I say "pensions," I'm referring to defined benefit plans. When you say "most" are funded, I don't buy that since the largest, the Feds and the State don't fund them, and most large municipalities don't that you could ever get to "most" based on that you're already down to small to mid size cities as the only candidates. It's possible some smaller cities do, but I'd like to see some evidence. When you say Detroit "lent themselves the money" that is misleading because it sounds like they'd saved it at some point then spent it later. It's like social security, no money was ever saved. They simply issues themselves IOUs. Like social security, it was a con.

- It's absolutely true that there is an incentive problem between unions and elected officials. And it is a big reason why there are problems in government pensions. Often though, the problem is also governments not making the contributions they promise, even in good times. Republicans are probably more guilty of this than Democrats. In the 1990s, when the stock market was booming, politicians gave themselves contribution holidays because the funds were doing so well. That way they could look like heroes by saying they were "cutting taxes." So rather than building up the value of the funds in good times in preparation for recessions down the road, tax-cutting heroes damaged their funds in the future.

- Private sector pensions may have minimum funding requirements but taxpayers bail out corporate pension funds as well. Google PBGC.

Your statement is highly misleading. Private companies, as I said, have to meet funding requirements. The government is bailing out the ... difference ... if it exists. They are not eating the entire pension like they would have to do in Detroit because nothing was funded at all.

Government entities issuing themselves IOUs is not funding a pension.

You're simply incorrect Kaz. Defined benefit plans are funded. What they aren't is fully funded, ie they are 60% to 80% funded. They aren't like social security. Employers and employees contribute money to the funds which are then invested in stocks, bonds, real estate, hedge funds, private equity funds, commodities, etc. You can go to their web sites and they'll list their investments. I know of no government DB plan structured like SS.

Edit - I believe CalPERS is the largest investor in private equity in the world.

just a note.....taxpayers don't bailout pension funds at least through PBGC.....

PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans.

PBGC pays monthly retirement benefits, up to a guaranteed maximum, to nearly 744,000 retirees in 4,000 pension plans that ended.

How PBGC Operates

 

[Edgetho]

Most of the Detroit healthcare liablility will be moved into Barry-Care and thus set on the plate of all us taxpayers to cover. That's why Obama isn't saying shit about the bankruptcy because the big chunk of the shortfall moves to the "affordable" care act.

the Stuttering Clusterfukk CAN'T bail out Dee-Troit.

If he does, there will be about 400 other Cities that want a bail out.

He can't set a precedent for something that stupid.

Just another lie. From just another liar.

Remember when he promised he wouldn't let Dee-Troit fail in the 2012 campaign? A few short Months ago?

He lied. He had no vision of ever keeping that promise.

But that's what dimocraps do... They lie.

It's one thing to make a mistake. We all do that.

It's another to change your stance. Some of us do that every few years.

It's quite another to look someone in the eye and tell a bald-faced fucking lie by making a promise you have NO INTENTION of keeping.

That's what dimocrap scum are famous for.

It's somewhere around lie, number 1,736 for him. That's a lot. Even for the scum of the Earth; dimocraps

 

[Toro]

You're simply incorrect Kaz. Defined benefit plans are funded. What they aren't is fully funded, ie they are 60% to 80% funded. They aren't like social security. Employers and employees contribute money to the funds which are then invested in stocks, bonds, real estate, hedge funds, private equity funds, commodities, etc. You can go to their web sites and they'll list their investments. I know of no government DB plan structured like SS.

Edit - I believe CalPERS is the largest investor in private equity in the world.

OK, that they are not exactly like social security and have zero assets I'll concede. However, to get to your stats, you have to assume that zero percent of their funds are reinvested in their own State bonds and I can't find any data on that.

Yeah, that's fair.

The test is whether or not they are dramatically overweight local bonds. Generally, however, local bonds are a small slice of the bond market. So even a big overweight won't expose the fund to local default risk. Munis are primarily a retail product.

 

[JoeBlam]

Most of the Detroit healthcare liablility will be moved into Barry-Care and thus set on the plate of all us taxpayers to cover. That's why Obama isn't saying shit about the bankruptcy because the big chunk of the shortfall moves to the "affordable" care act.

the Stuttering Clusterfukk CAN'T bail out Dee-Troit.

If he does, there will be about 400 other Cities that want a bail out.

He can't set a precedent for something that stupid.

Just another lie. From just another liar.

Remember when he promised he wouldn't let Dee-Troit fail in the 2012 campaign? A few short Months ago?

He lied. He had no vision of ever keeping that promise.

But that's what dimocraps do... They lie.

It's one thing to make a mistake. We all do that.

It's another to change your stance. Some of us do that every few years.

It's quite another to look someone in the eye and tell a bald-faced fucking lie by making a promise you have NO INTENTION of keeping.

That's what dimocrap scum are famous for.

It's somewhere around lie, number 1,736 for him. That's a lot. Even for the scum of the Earth; dimocraps

Where you from?

 

[kaz]

You're simply incorrect Kaz. Defined benefit plans are funded. What they aren't is fully funded, ie they are 60% to 80% funded. They aren't like social security. Employers and employees contribute money to the funds which are then invested in stocks, bonds, real estate, hedge funds, private equity funds, commodities, etc. You can go to their web sites and they'll list their investments. I know of no government DB plan structured like SS.

Edit - I believe CalPERS is the largest investor in private equity in the world.

OK, that they are not exactly like social security and have zero assets I'll concede. However, to get to your stats, you have to assume that zero percent of their funds are reinvested in their own State bonds and I can't find any data on that.

Yeah, that's fair.

The test is whether or not they are dramatically overweight local bonds. Generally, however, local bonds are a small slice of the bond market. So even a big overweight won't expose the fund to local default risk. Munis are primarily a retail product.

Agreed. Keep in mind though that the problem of overweight would not be evenly distributed. The most distressed are in general going to be far more overweighted since they are the ones having trouble selling their bonds. Like Detroit. It's for that reason that government restricts pension funds from investing in their own stocks and bonds. Government gets it, it just doesn't apply it to itself. Because they can do that.

 

[thereisnospoon]

if the republicans touch their pension you can bet your bottom dollar they will lose big time in this next election ...

No one is going to "touch" anything.
What the fuck are you blabbering about.
Oh, BTW, there aren't enough people who support unions or even belong to them to make a difference in an election.
In other words, new guy, there are a lot more Michigan voters who are NOT union members than are. There are many times more people who are getting fleeced than those on the receiving end.
Do you really think union people have the kind of voting clout to influence an election?
Come one. Get out of the 1950's. Unions are dead. Defined benefit pensions are dead.
Ya wanna know why the good old days are referred to as 'old"? Because they ARE old.
As in over. Move on.
Whatever problems unions face today are of their own doing. On the public side, unions got onto the gravy train with union friendly politicians driving the train. As with any perk, the people paying for the perk soon find out they are getting little or nothing in return. In this case, the taxpayers got wise to the incredible wages and benefits unionized public workers were getting, while their taxes were going through the roof and the economy was not permitting private sector business to invest in higher wages.
Unions destroyed themselves over pure unadulterated greed.
We are kicking them out.
Pensions? Those people should be lucky to find they have jobs. Never mind the pensions. Those are gone.

its apparent you haven't been listening to the news ...the governor Of Michigan is trying to take the money out of the unions retirement fund to pay for Detroits debt ... that's what the fuck we are talking about .... if you watched something other then FOX news for idiots, oh and by the way, the Union workers invest their retirement along with the companies investment ... so what you're saying here, just because you got fuck, because you voted for a republican and lost your ass in your retirement, you think everybody else should be stupid like you and vote for republicans so they too can lose their retirement ... thank god for whack jobs like you... you stick out like a sore thumb .... that's usually up your ass

The facts are clear. Unions are losing out. Those defined benefit pensions are no longer sustainable. And no those union workers do not 'invest' their retirement in anything because under most union deals, 80% or more of the pension fund is paid by the employer. Some public employees pay as little as 5% of their wages toward their pension. You doubt me? I can dig up tons of facts to support this.
"just because you got fuck?"....HUH?

Like I stated earlier, you're not very good at this.
Look, you're new at this. You should stop posting to avoid embarrassing yourself.
Another issue. You are at a serious disadvantage here. I look at your writing style and lack of command of the English language. You are easy pickings in the war of insults.
I will give you two choices. 1. Have a discussion. 2. get into a battle of insults you will most assuredly lose and lose big.
Your call.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

so are Michigan taxpayers (the State) off the hook for Detroit pensions or what...?

Judge: State lawsuits cannot block Detroit bankruptcy filing * - NBC News.com