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what the hell does this have to do with detroit going bankrupt ???? here's a clue .... it doesn't have anything to do with it ... if you want to ,go tit for tat the facts are for every dem who has been caught in a criminal action in any state, there ate 10 republicans who have been caught in criminal actions too ... why you republicans insist in these shiny objects is beyond me ... I guess you can refute anything that I've posted so out comes the shiny object ... look at the governor Of Virgina his days are numbered here yoiu have one guy saying 300,000 jobs when to the south, but they just can't seem to point out where these 300,000 jobs went ... another claims that because the dems ran detroit that's the reason they went bankrupt ... but they just can't seem to tell you why these 300,000 companies left the state ...these republicans won't tell you why??? if they did tell you the real truth why, instead of these shiny object you love to through out here to change the subject ... if they found out the real truth that republicans are lining their pockets, more people would become dems ...Here's a perfect example of how dimocraps can fuck up a one-car funeral.
Here's PROOF that dimocraps are dishonest, corrupt, lying, thieving scum.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/12/u...-of-detroit-convicted-in-corruption-case.html
DETROIT Kwame M. Kilpatrick, a former mayor of Detroit, was found guilty on Monday of a raft of charges, including racketeering, fraud and extortion, capping a five-month public corruption trial against him and two co-defendants.
The jury found Mr. Kilpatrick guilty of 24 of the 30 charges against him, including the most serious charges of racketeering and extortion, which each carry maximum sentences of 20 years.
At an afternoon bond hearing, Mr. Kilpatrick and Bobby W. Ferguson, a city contractor, appeared stunned after being ordered to prison pending sentencing. Judge Nancy G. Edmunds cited the possible risk of fleeing and danger to the community. No sentencing date was set.
dimocraps lie, it's what they do.
dimocraps steal, it's what they do.
dimocraps create shit from good, it's what they do.
dimocraps destroy, it's what they do.
NEVER trust a dimocrap.
This particular scumbag was Mayor until 2008.
He's no different from any of the rest of the scumbag dimocraps that held office before or since except that...
He got caught
Never.
In the '90s companies started moving from a defined benefit pension system to defined contribution plan. The soaring costs of retirement made that necessary. The only ones still on defined benefit are gov't workers.
That says it all right there.
For those who understand why there is no such thing as a social security trust fund, this is going to scare the snot out of you. For those who believe in the fantasy land belief that government loaning itself money is an asset, nothing is going to get through to you anyway, so just have a cookie and smile. However, here is the reality.
All those years of negotiations between government workers at the local, State and Federal level, including and particularly teachers, the reality is that government never saved a dime to pay for it. Just like social security, all those retirements were simply promised against future taxpayer money. And like Social Security, IOUs from government to itself were written. My mother was a physical therapist for the Kalamazoo school system, and she’s learning now that there are no assets behind her pension as well.
Which is why those plans are so generous. The people who promised them didn’t pay for them, and they knew they’d be long gone before the bills came due. Guess what, they are coming due. It’s not just social security that was unfunded by our parents, it’s every one of those workers, who are now coming to us to make good on promises that were made with no money to back it up.
None of this information is new. All the contracts were negotiated and agreed to by the unions without any of the governments putting up dime one to fund them. And it was public information, no one wanted to think about it. So, who should be responsible for this?
- Workers who looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them?
- Today’s taxpayer who wasn’t involved at all.
Yes, it’s too bad. But taxpayers should not be stuck with other people’s bills just because we feel sorry for them. The fact is they worked for employers and were promised pensions without anything being saved to cover them. Private sector pensions have minimum funding requirements. Government sector pensions have none. They were planning to stick us for the bill. The bureaucrats knew they’d be gone, the union reps liked telling their members what great benefits they negotiated.
It’s too bad, but it’s not our problem. Government, BTW is still doing it. When some lame Democrat says we need to bail them out, tell them to fix the hole in the boat first.
There are a lot of things that are wrong in this thread, kaz.
- Governments generally do fund their pension funds. To say that there is "nothing there" is wrong. Detroit lent itself money from the fund. That's bad. But that's rare. Most funds are underfunded, but that doesn't mean there is nothing there.
- It's absolutely true that there is an incentive problem between unions and elected officials. And it is a big reason why there are problems in government pensions. Often though, the problem is also governments not making the contributions they promise, even in good times. Republicans are probably more guilty of this than Democrats. In the 1990s, when the stock market was booming, politicians gave themselves contribution holidays because the funds were doing so well. That way they could look like heroes by saying they were "cutting taxes." So rather than building up the value of the funds in good times in preparation for recessions down the road, tax-cutting heroes damaged their funds in the future.
- Private sector pensions may have minimum funding requirements but taxpayers bail out corporate pension funds as well. Google PBGC.
my brother-in-law worked for john dear until he retired ... all of his benefits that he has now comes from his retirement, health care, his income ... when they laid off people you notified the Unemployment people but the unions paid the unemployment not just the employer .... this is one union that I personally know of ... so the fact that you asked why doesn't the union pay, they do....In the '90s companies started moving from a defined benefit pension system to defined contribution plan. The soaring costs of retirement made that necessary. The only ones still on defined benefit are gov't workers.
That says it all right there.
Here's how I have cobbled together my views on organized labor. Especially when it pertains to public employees.
Throughout labor disputes, union management and the rank file claim thy are all about the union. They work for the union. They are union. When union construction workers are laid off where do they go? To the union hall to see if anyone's hiring.
When workers have jobs, who pays them? The employer. Who provides benefits? Employer..
My contention is, if the workers believe they work for and their loyalty lies with the union, then why not go to the union for their wages and benefits?
I have always vied the labor collective/employer relationship as parasitic. In other words, the union would not exist and would have nothing off of which to feed if not for. the existence of business.
In conclusion, if the workers of Detroit want their pensions and benefits, let them go to the union bosses and get it from them. After all, the union coffers are where the money is.
Has anyone ever seen a poor union delegate/manager?
One other aspect of unions which I find ironic.
Back during organized labor's heyday when unions were powerful, those opposed to organized labor were labeled as Communist. Communism has it's roots in the collective.
Well, unions are precisely THAT. They are organizations which group people together, treat them all equally but not necessarily well, make no allowances for merit, demand payment by all, and in effect redistribute wealth. In order to be a member of the collective one must agree to the rules. The member is told where to to shop and told for whom to vote. They are told which products they may not buy.
Labor unions are collectives.
if the republicans touch their pension you can bet your bottom dollar they will lose big time in this next election ...
For those who understand why there is no such thing as a social security trust fund, this is going to scare the snot out of you. For those who believe in the fantasy land belief that government loaning itself money is an asset, nothing is going to get through to you anyway, so just have a cookie and smile. However, here is the reality.
All those years of negotiations between government workers at the local, State and Federal level, including and particularly teachers, the reality is that government never saved a dime to pay for it. Just like social security, all those retirements were simply promised against future taxpayer money. And like Social Security, IOUs from government to itself were written. My mother was a physical therapist for the Kalamazoo school system, and shes learning now that there are no assets behind her pension as well.
Which is why those plans are so generous. The people who promised them didnt pay for them, and they knew theyd be long gone before the bills came due. Guess what, they are coming due. Its not just social security that was unfunded by our parents, its every one of those workers, who are now coming to us to make good on promises that were made with no money to back it up.
None of this information is new. All the contracts were negotiated and agreed to by the unions without any of the governments putting up dime one to fund them. And it was public information, no one wanted to think about it. So, who should be responsible for this?
- Workers who looked the other way and supported unions who negotiated the deals for them?
- Todays taxpayer who wasnt involved at all.
Yes, its too bad. But taxpayers should not be stuck with other peoples bills just because we feel sorry for them. The fact is they worked for employers and were promised pensions without anything being saved to cover them. Private sector pensions have minimum funding requirements. Government sector pensions have none. They were planning to stick us for the bill. The bureaucrats knew theyd be gone, the union reps liked telling their members what great benefits they negotiated.
Its too bad, but its not our problem. Government, BTW is still doing it. When some lame Democrat says we need to bail them out, tell them to fix the hole in the boat first.
There are a lot of things that are wrong in this thread, kaz.
- Governments generally do fund their pension funds. To say that there is "nothing there" is wrong. Detroit lent itself money from the fund. That's bad. But that's rare. Most funds are underfunded, but that doesn't mean there is nothing there.
- It's absolutely true that there is an incentive problem between unions and elected officials. And it is a big reason why there are problems in government pensions. Often though, the problem is also governments not making the contributions they promise, even in good times. Republicans are probably more guilty of this than Democrats. In the 1990s, when the stock market was booming, politicians gave themselves contribution holidays because the funds were doing so well. That way they could look like heroes by saying they were "cutting taxes." So rather than building up the value of the funds in good times in preparation for recessions down the road, tax-cutting heroes damaged their funds in the future.
- Private sector pensions may have minimum funding requirements but taxpayers bail out corporate pension funds as well. Google PBGC.
my brother-in-law worked for john dear until he retired ... all of his benefits that he has now comes from his retirement health care income ... when they laid off you notified Unemployment but the unions paid the unemployment not just the employer .... this is one union that I personally know of ... so the fact that you asked why doesn't the union pay they do....In the '90s companies started moving from a defined benefit pension system to defined contribution plan. The soaring costs of retirement made that necessary. The only ones still on defined benefit are gov't workers.
That says it all right there.
Here's how I have cobbled together my views on organized labor. Especially when it pertains to public employees.
Throughout labor disputes, union management and the rank file claim thy are all about the union. They work for the union. They are union. When union construction workers are laid off where do they go? To the union hall to see if anyone's hiring.
When workers have jobs, who pays them? The employer. Who provides benefits? Employer..
My contention is, if the workers believe they work for and their loyalty lies with the union, then why not go to the union for their wages and benefits?
I have always vied the labor collective/employer relationship as parasitic. In other words, the union would not exist and would have nothing off of which to feed if not for. the existence of business.
In conclusion, if the workers of Detroit want their pensions and benefits, let them go to the union bosses and get it from them. After all, the union coffers are where the money is.
Has anyone ever seen a poor union delegate/manager?
One other aspect of unions which I find ironic.
Back during organized labor's heyday when unions were powerful, those opposed to organized labor were labeled as Communist. Communism has it's roots in the collective.
Well, unions are precisely THAT. They are organizations which group people together, treat them all equally but not necessarily well, make no allowances for merit, demand payment by all, and in effect redistribute wealth. In order to be a member of the collective one must agree to the rules. The member is told where to to shop and told for whom to vote. They are told which products they may not buy.
Labor unions are collectives.
You're not very good at this, are you?Union Retirement Benefits
By Jonathan Lister, eHow Contributor
Share
Print this article
Trade unions negotiate retirement benefits with employers.
Labor unions provide for fair working conditions, pay and retirement benefits for workers across the country. Teachers, construction workers, postal employees and even servers all have unions working for them in one or all states. Retirement benefits for union members provide a steady income and medical benefits for workers that have given a life of loyal service to a company and the union itself.
Read more: Union Retirement Benefits | eHow
Pension Plans
Some union members enjoy payments from direct-benefit pension plans upon retirement. These benefit plans are paid into by all union members over the course of an employment career through tax-exempt donations taken out of paychecks. These pension plans provide the employee with a guaranteed fixed income upon retirement which gets larger the longer an employee's career lasts.
According to the website for the American Federation of Labor, employers have moved away from allowing these direct-benefit plans in union negotiations and have instead opted for 401k retirement plans which are essentially stock portfolios which pay the employee a monthly stipend upon retirement.
Health Insurance
Union members like those of the American Postal Worker's Union enjoy health benefits that remain in place upon retirement. Retiring workers have the option of choosing from multiple benefit plans based on desired premiums and anticipated health needs of the coming years. These benefits are also extended to spouses and dependent children. To be eligible for these retirement benefits, an employee must remain in service for a specified period of time as negotiated per union contract.
Life Insurance and Survivor's Benefits
Collective bargaining agreements regularly provide for the creation of group life insurance programs for retiring union members. Life insurance provides a payout for death benefits which includes money to bury the former employee and provide for his surviving family. This fund is established through deductions from union member paychecks from every union location across the country if there are more than one. Additionally, spouses and dependent children may be eligible to receive a portion or all of the former employee's remaining pension or 401k once any remaining debts have been paid.
Read more: Union Retirement Benefits | eHow
so where you get your info about unions is beyond me
if the republicans touch their pension you can bet your bottom dollar they will lose big time in this next election ...
No one is going to "touch" anything.
What the fuck are you blabbering about.
Oh, BTW, there aren't enough people who support unions or even belong to them to make a difference in an election.
In other words, new guy, there are a lot more Michigan voters who are NOT union members than are. There are many times more people who are getting fleeced than those on the receiving end.
Do you really think union people have the kind of voting clout to influence an election?
Come one. Get out of the 1950's. Unions are dead. Defined benefit pensions are dead.
Ya wanna know why the good old days are referred to as 'old"? Because they ARE old.
As in over. Move on.
Whatever problems unions face today are of their own doing. On the public side, unions got onto the gravy train with union friendly politicians driving the train. As with any perk, the people paying for the perk soon find out they are getting little or nothing in return. In this case, the taxpayers got wise to the incredible wages and benefits unionized public workers were getting, while their taxes were going through the roof and the economy was not permitting private sector business to invest in higher wages.
Unions destroyed themselves over pure unadulterated greed.
We are kicking them out.
Pensions? Those people should be lucky to find they have jobs. Never mind the pensions. Those are gone.
You're not very good at this, are you?Union Retirement Benefits
By Jonathan Lister, eHow Contributor
Share
Print this article
Trade unions negotiate retirement benefits with employers.
Labor unions provide for fair working conditions, pay and retirement benefits for workers across the country. Teachers, construction workers, postal employees and even servers all have unions working for them in one or all states. Retirement benefits for union members provide a steady income and medical benefits for workers that have given a life of loyal service to a company and the union itself.
Read more: Union Retirement Benefits | eHow
Pension Plans
Some union members enjoy payments from direct-benefit pension plans upon retirement. These benefit plans are paid into by all union members over the course of an employment career through tax-exempt donations taken out of paychecks. These pension plans provide the employee with a guaranteed fixed income upon retirement which gets larger the longer an employee's career lasts.
According to the website for the American Federation of Labor, employers have moved away from allowing these direct-benefit plans in union negotiations and have instead opted for 401k retirement plans which are essentially stock portfolios which pay the employee a monthly stipend upon retirement.
Health Insurance
Union members like those of the American Postal Worker's Union enjoy health benefits that remain in place upon retirement. Retiring workers have the option of choosing from multiple benefit plans based on desired premiums and anticipated health needs of the coming years. These benefits are also extended to spouses and dependent children. To be eligible for these retirement benefits, an employee must remain in service for a specified period of time as negotiated per union contract.
Life Insurance and Survivor's Benefits
Collective bargaining agreements regularly provide for the creation of group life insurance programs for retiring union members. Life insurance provides a payout for death benefits which includes money to bury the former employee and provide for his surviving family. This fund is established through deductions from union member paychecks from every union location across the country if there are more than one. Additionally, spouses and dependent children may be eligible to receive a portion or all of the former employee's remaining pension or 401k once any remaining debts have been paid.
Read more: Union Retirement Benefits | eHow
so where you get your info about unions is beyond me
my brother-in-law worked for john dear until he retired ... all of his benefits that he has now comes from his retirement health care income ... when they laid off you notified Unemployment but the unions paid the unemployment not just the employer .... this is one union that I personally know of ... so the fact that you asked why doesn't the union pay they do....Here's how I have cobbled together my views on organized labor. Especially when it pertains to public employees.
Throughout labor disputes, union management and the rank file claim thy are all about the union. They work for the union. They are union. When union construction workers are laid off where do they go? To the union hall to see if anyone's hiring.
When workers have jobs, who pays them? The employer. Who provides benefits? Employer..
My contention is, if the workers believe they work for and their loyalty lies with the union, then why not go to the union for their wages and benefits?
I have always vied the labor collective/employer relationship as parasitic. In other words, the union would not exist and would have nothing off of which to feed if not for. the existence of business.
In conclusion, if the workers of Detroit want their pensions and benefits, let them go to the union bosses and get it from them. After all, the union coffers are where the money is.
Has anyone ever seen a poor union delegate/manager?
One other aspect of unions which I find ironic.
Back during organized labor's heyday when unions were powerful, those opposed to organized labor were labeled as Communist. Communism has it's roots in the collective.
Well, unions are precisely THAT. They are organizations which group people together, treat them all equally but not necessarily well, make no allowances for merit, demand payment by all, and in effect redistribute wealth. In order to be a member of the collective one must agree to the rules. The member is told where to to shop and told for whom to vote. They are told which products they may not buy.
Labor unions are collectives.
See that's where you are wrong. All unions have strike/layoff/unemployment contingencies written into their contracts with the workers.
That's not what I am referring to.
Here, let me make this simple.
The city of Detroit pay the workers wages, pays for their benefits, pays for the pensions. The workers however are union FIRST, employer second. That said, with the city unable to meet its fiscal obligations, then let the workers go to the unions for their pay and benefits. The union has all the money anyway.
I see you are a true believer when it pertains to unions. That's fine. It's also unrealistic.
Unions are dying. And for good reason. They are vastly unpopular. Unions drive up the cost of doing business to the point where unionized companies costs make the business non-competitive.
50 years ago, nearly one third of all American workers were members of unions. Today that is down to just over 7%. That number continues to drop.
And that is a good thing.
Detroit workers paid state, local and federal taxes. We should all chip in. It's the Christian thing to do.
if the republicans touch their pension you can bet your bottom dollar they will lose big time in this next election ...
No one is going to "touch" anything.
What the fuck are you blabbering about.
Oh, BTW, there aren't enough people who support unions or even belong to them to make a difference in an election.
In other words, new guy, there are a lot more Michigan voters who are NOT union members than are. There are many times more people who are getting fleeced than those on the receiving end.
Do you really think union people have the kind of voting clout to influence an election?
Come one. Get out of the 1950's. Unions are dead. Defined benefit pensions are dead.
Ya wanna know why the good old days are referred to as 'old"? Because they ARE old.
As in over. Move on.
Whatever problems unions face today are of their own doing. On the public side, unions got onto the gravy train with union friendly politicians driving the train. As with any perk, the people paying for the perk soon find out they are getting little or nothing in return. In this case, the taxpayers got wise to the incredible wages and benefits unionized public workers were getting, while their taxes were going through the roof and the economy was not permitting private sector business to invest in higher wages.
Unions destroyed themselves over pure unadulterated greed.
We are kicking them out.
Pensions? Those people should be lucky to find they have jobs. Never mind the pensions. Those are gone.
its apparent you haven't been listening to the news ...the governor Of Michigan is trying to take the money out of the unions retirement fund to pay for Detroits debt ... that's what the fuck we are talking about .... if you watched something other then FOX news for idiots, oh and by the way, the Union workers invest their retirement along with the companies investment ... so what you're saying here, just because you got fuck, because you voted for a republican and lost your ass in your retirement, you think everybody else should be stupid like you and vote for republicans so they too can lose their retirement ... thank god for whack jobs like you... you stick out like a sore thumb .... that's usually up your ass
you haven't changed one bit ... still stupid as ever ... you're telling us that if Detroit hires more teacher, police and firemen by doing this they will fail .... your telling us here that if Detroit give huge tax breaks to corporation to come to Detroit, that won't help ... what you're telling us if we increase the Tax base that Detroit will fail ... like I said you haven't changed one bit ... you're still stupid as ever, because, how did you say it DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit ... it wasn't the dems who sold out American ... it was the republicans and their damn deregulation plans that screw us big time ... it wasn't the dems in Detroit who deregulated the country, who allowed companies to be out sourced by the bills these republicans passed ... now you're trying to tell us that the state government dems are the problem that put them in the state they are in??? yep, you're still stupid as everTry to rise above your bitterness and help others in need.
a lot of them bitter clingers originated in the DDD....Dumbass Democrat Detroit....
its apparent you don't seem to comprehend much ... the employee of the unions in detroit also pay into their retirement fund.... they are dying because of these states that are controlled by the republican party has passed "right to work laws" ... they have just recently passed where you can't use collective bargaining in Wisconsin where you have corporations funding politicians to make sure they can't have collective bargaining ... unions aren't dying because people don't like them, they are dying because of laws being passed by the republican party ...my brother-in-law worked for john dear until he retired ... all of his benefits that he has now comes from his retirement health care income ... when they laid off you notified Unemployment but the unions paid the unemployment not just the employer .... this is one union that I personally know of ... so the fact that you asked why doesn't the union pay they do....Here's how I have cobbled together my views on organized labor. Especially when it pertains to public employees.
Throughout labor disputes, union management and the rank file claim thy are all about the union. They work for the union. They are union. When union construction workers are laid off where do they go? To the union hall to see if anyone's hiring.
When workers have jobs, who pays them? The employer. Who provides benefits? Employer..
My contention is, if the workers believe they work for and their loyalty lies with the union, then why not go to the union for their wages and benefits?
I have always vied the labor collective/employer relationship as parasitic. In other words, the union would not exist and would have nothing off of which to feed if not for. the existence of business.
In conclusion, if the workers of Detroit want their pensions and benefits, let them go to the union bosses and get it from them. After all, the union coffers are where the money is.
Has anyone ever seen a poor union delegate/manager?
One other aspect of unions which I find ironic.
Back during organized labor's heyday when unions were powerful, those opposed to organized labor were labeled as Communist. Communism has it's roots in the collective.
Well, unions are precisely THAT. They are organizations which group people together, treat them all equally but not necessarily well, make no allowances for merit, demand payment by all, and in effect redistribute wealth. In order to be a member of the collective one must agree to the rules. The member is told where to to shop and told for whom to vote. They are told which products they may not buy.
Labor unions are collectives.
See that's where you are wrong. All unions have strike/layoff/unemployment contingencies written into their contracts with the workers.
That's not what I am referring to.
Here, let me make this simple.
The city of Detroit pay the workers wages, pays for their benefits, pays for the pensions. The workers however are union FIRST, employer second. That said, with the city unable to meet its fiscal obligations, then let the workers go to the unions for their pay and benefits. The union has all the money anyway.
I see you are a true believer when it pertains to unions. That's fine. It's also unrealistic.
Unions are dying. And for good reason. They are vastly unpopular. Unions drive up the cost of doing business to the point where unionized companies costs make the business non-competitive.
50 years ago, nearly one third of all American workers were members of unions. Today that is down to just over 7%. That number continues to drop.
And that is a good thing.
