Why I Am Not A Christian

[Madeline]

Well I hadn't anticiated that defining Evil would pose a problem. A few gray areas maybe, but not the general idea. In the example I gave I had the ability to assist that young Mom and did not. I'd say that all by itself was an Evil thing. Then I preyed on her because I felt like being an asshole and she couldn't fight back. I'd say that was an Evil thing too.

The only thing I did right -- speak up for the kidlet -- was submerged in all that I did wrong.

Does that help any?

 

[Intense]

Madeline: So here's my question: why is it that when God designed Mankind, he afflicted us with Pride and the other Evils we nuture in our breasts? Why didn't he fill us with enough Divinity so that we would not have these impulses to tear one another down, or apart?

Who's to say that He did? Was corruption there from the start? Maybe in the beginning there was more attachment? If there was a turning away, what caused it? Is there more to the equation than Each Individual, the Creator, and the choices we make, both individually and collectively? Is there a War in Heaven? We are told of Principalities and Powers. Care to speculate??? If the Prophets had the Divinity you speak of, did it improve Their quality of life or further separate them from us?

 

[Liability]

So, you think there should be no consequences for rejecting God?

God doesn't send anyone to hell. God, so wanted to save the world from that, that he sent his only Son to stop it.

If you reject God's greatest Gift, God didn't send you to hell, you sent yourself.

Take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming God.

As for slavery. I have the same answer for you that Jesus gave the Pharisees regarding divorce.

"For the hardness of your hearts God, permitted this, but from the beginning it was not so."

Remember, the abolition movement began as a CHRISTIAN movement.

Besides, why are you worried about slavery of more than 150 years ago, if you are content to be a slave to sin, today?

If God was so for slavery, he wouldn't have sent his Son to deliver us from the worst slavery of all.

Maddy has repeatedly stated a belief that God exists so you are just proving yourself to be a fuxxing bitch whiny ass troll.

a. my discussion, currently, is with you, not maddy.

b. is this how christians speak?
"so you are just proving yourself to be a fuxxing bitch whiny ass troll"


so far you are proving yourself to be an ignorant moron who can't debate in a civilzed fassion.

Arguing with Curvey is like fighting a kid in the special ed class. No matter how quickly and decisively you win, Curvey is still retarded.

 

[Madeline]

Intense, the concept of an After-Life just does not resonate with me. I also can see no basis to believe that there is a Heaven or that super-natural beings exist alongside us in some alternative universe, pushing and pulling on us to amuse themselves or win some sort of battle vicariously. All such notions seem to me to be just defense mechanisms Humans use to shield themselves from the reality that Dead is Dead and that we are 100% responsible for our own behavior.

This is what I cannot understand: how was God able to design the hummingbird so perfectly and yet he messed up Humans so badly?

Wouldn't we all rather live in a world that was Just?

Watch the two videos below and tell me -- how could the same Being design BOTH?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpBfbzxS1l4]YouTube - The Fibonacci Sequence[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jyqmRiSSXA]YouTube - Oil Spill LIVE feed: BP awaits 'Top Kill' results[/ame]

 

[Intense]

Intense, the concept of an After-Life just does not resonate with me. I also can see no basis to believe that there is a Heaven or that super-natural beings exist alongside us in some alternative universe, pushing and pulling on us to amuse themselves or win some sort of battle vicariously. All such notions seem to me to be just defense mechanisms Humans use to shield themselves from the reality that Dead is Dead and that we are 100% responsible for our own behavior.

This is what I cannot understand: how was God able to design the hummingbird so perfectly and yet he messed up Humans so badly?

Wouldn't we all rather live in a world that was Just?

Watch the two videos below and tell me -- how could the same Being design BOTH?

YouTube - The Fibonacci Sequence

YouTube - Oil Spill LIVE feed: BP awaits 'Top Kill' results

Some people need to be sold a bill of goods before they can accept a relationship with their maker. You are not that way and that is not necessarily a bad thing. You are not concerned with what is on the other side of the Life. So what? I've witnessed paranormal stuff, so I see it differently. Have you ever seen, dreamed, or envisioned anything before it's time? Have you ever experienced intuition or Deja Vu? I truly believe that maintaining a quality relationship with the Powers of Creation takes care of the rest of it. Got that ? ... Good.

On Religion, I look at all of them as training wheels. They keep the masses more in check, than less in check, until they are weened. Righteousness, does not change, though Our perception of it does. We do not violate basic precept. I'm not knocking Organized Religion in any way. I'm just saying that there are things within each of us, like Conscience, personal witness, that are between each of us and Our Creator, that take precedent over everything else. When any organization disconnects, turns away, that personal witness may be the only thing that can restore. Corruption of Spirit is a very unpredictable thing, usually demanding blind loyalty every step of the way. Whether it be the Corruption of Spirit, in Government, Civil Law and Justice, Safety procedures, basic maintenance, being ignored in Industry, the situation usually deteriorates before the catastrophe. Do You watch the signs and react or ignore them??? What is the primary message in both Testaments??? God First In All Things. Repentance, Reform, Reconciliation. What cause motivates you that is not ordained???? What Purpose??? What Principle???

There may be a thousand ways to accomplish a goal. Not all are within reason. The end does not justify the means. The mean is justified by circumstance, ability, and conscience, at least in part. Do you work on a resolution blind to the effect of your remedy, in a predetermined way, or do you apply, your senses to the effect of what you do, conscious and able to adjust? I know the answer to that when group think is applied, so only answer for yourself. I'm not a big fan of consensus. Substance over image every time thank you.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

You asked why the laws were changed and Heb 8 states why. You may claim it is insufficient to your taste but don't add more layers of dishonesty to you bag of crybaby tears.

I did not claim it is insufficient. It is clear to me now you are no more able to read and interpret my posts as you are your own holy book. So I'll break it down for you. I asked why the LAWS were changed. Heb 8 states why the COVENANT was changed. Note how they are not the same word. I know how the big words can get all confusing for dumb hicks, but a quick googling will enlighten you and explain that a covenant is a fancy way of saying "agreement". So Heb 8 explains why the agreement was changed: because the old people forgot about it and it needed to be re-established. It does not however state that the law was changed, nor does this passage say why the law was changed.

Again, this has little to do with an explanation being insufficient, so much as non-existent. But hey, if you claim I'm wrong without supporting anything you say, and back it up with words like "crybaby" that you seem to call everyone, maybe you can convince yourself you're right! Cuz you're sure not convincing anyone else.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. God, so wanted to save the world from that, that he sent his only Son to stop it.

If you reject God's greatest Gift, God didn't send you to hell, you sent yourself.

Take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming God.

So if someone broke into your house, held a gun to your head, and demanded you renounce your religion else you would die, then if you didn't and died, it was really suicide?! THAT'S AMAZING LOGIC!

I'm going to file that brilliant reasoning next to such lines as "if she didn't want to be raped, she wouldn't have dressed like that".

I take responsibility for my ACTIONS every day. But according to you, actions don't mean anything as long as you just clap your hands and believe!

As for slavery. I have the same answer for you that Jesus gave the Pharisees regarding divorce.

"For the hardness of your hearts God, permitted this, but from the beginning it was not so."

Which again shows that laws and what is acceptable appears to change over time. You're telling me an omnipotent being had to bend their will to permit poor behavior? That's like saying "for the hardness of their arteries" the parents of morbidly obese children allow for poor eating habits. In one sentence you say people should take responsibility for their actions, and here you claim an all powerful being simply changes law when they don't? That's ridiculous.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Maddy asked why evil exists so I pointed out the question sans a def of evil is moot.

Evil exists because human beings are fallible.

Well, agreed. But Sky Dancer, if God designed Mankind and he is infallible, why even bother creating us with such a defect?
I can see only one value to Evil -- it gives Mankind something to test themselves on, to stand up against and suffer to defeat. It creates a need among us for one another; but surely this could have been done some other way? We could have needed one another just for the shared joy of it, or to learn more about being Human.

You think there is an Infallible Creator-God and He/She created good and evil?

 

[Madeline]

I think that's one of the most difficult questions to answer, Sky Dancer. No, I don't think God has a personality. He does not have moods. He does not get tired -- one reason the creation myth of Genesis makes so little sense is the line "and on the seventh day, God rested".

But God DOES exist, I believe. And I think that one of the few aspects of him we Humans can imagine is that he is perfect. If, as I believe, Humans begin life with a spark of that Divinity, that perfection, then why is there so much Evil?

I once litigated with a business owner who had filed false financial statements. He was on the ropes; I knew I was winning. One Monday I got in to hear that he had died in a sky diving accident, and I asked, "did they get fingerprints"? My staff thought I was paranoid and preposterous....until he showed up alive three years later in the Caribbean. He obviously murdered someone else so he could claim to be dead and collect his life insurance to escape the fate I was crafting, which he richly deserved.

I don't understand where this kind of thinking comes from. Why do we even have such vile thoughts as "for money I will murder a complete stranger"? How could the German people stand by -- or participate -- as Hitler led them through the horrors of Kristallnacht (Crystal Night, or the Night of Broken Glass) when 91 Jews were murdered and 25,000 to 30,000 were arrested and placed in concentration camps. 267 synagogues were destroyed, and thousands of homes and businesses were ransacked. This was done by the Hitler Youth, the Gestapo and the SS. How could a parent look at their child in a Hitler Youth uniform after that night and not weep?

I've never been able to reconcile this for myself. I believe there is a God, but I cannot understand why the Humans made in his image are so defective.

 

[blu]

I can believe God exists, but I cannot believe in an After-Life. Dead is dead. Finito.

look up the history of the after life. it was made by egyptian royalty who thought they were eternal and descended from god. they were power tripping dbags who didn't want to think that after death they just rot in whatever they were buried in. its much like people who get all excited over the after life today. imagine if all the poor people in the world whose only salavation is religion and the afterlife they think it gives them found out it was a hoax? all 3rd world countries would be in anarchy

 

[Madeline]

blu, I agree with you. But I don't dismiss the beliefs some have about an After-Life as pointless defense mechanisms. I think some folks truly believe there is a parallel universe or alternate reality or whatnot where the egos of the living survive after their death.

I'm not sure why so many claim they believe this, or why so many seem to plan their entire lives around the belief. Why would knowing you survive death as some sort of ego have any bearing on deciding what is right and wrong while you are alive?

 

[Sky Dancer]

blu, I agree with you. But I don't dismiss the beliefs some have about an After-Life as pointless defense mechanisms. I think some folks truly believe there is a parallel universe or alternate reality or whatnot where the egos of the living survive after their death.

I'm not sure why so many claim they believe this, or why so many seem to plan their entire lives around the belief. Why would knowing you survive death as some sort of ego have any bearing on deciding what is right and wrong while you are alive?

1. Some Buddhists say there is an afterlife--and it is in one of six realms of existence, hell realm, animal realm, preta realm, human realm and two god realms. These realms are debated as being states of mind more than actual places.
2. The ego and personality do not survive death. What is carried forward is habits, karma, qualities developed in the course of a lifetime.
3. Life is a continuum, moment to moment. Buddhists describe the dissolution of the elements at the time of dying.
4. If you think of the continuum of life, it isn't far fetched to see that we all have had many lives in one life. Our life as an embryo and fetus, our life as an infant and child, teenager, young adult and so on.


This is all just food for thought because in my case, this isn't a defense mechanism, I find it useful to contemplate death and dying in order to aspire to have a conscious lviing and dying process.

 

[CurveLight]

Intense, the concept of an After-Life just does not resonate with me. I also can see no basis to believe that there is a Heaven or that super-natural beings exist alongside us in some alternative universe, pushing and pulling on us to amuse themselves or win some sort of battle vicariously. All such notions seem to me to be just defense mechanisms Humans use to shield themselves from the reality that Dead is Dead and that we are 100% responsible for our own behavior.

This is what I cannot understand: how was God able to design the hummingbird so perfectly and yet he messed up Humans so badly?

Wouldn't we all rather live in a world that was Just?

Watch the two videos below and tell me -- how could the same Being design BOTH?

YouTube - The Fibonacci Sequence

YouTube - Oil Spill LIVE feed: BP awaits 'Top Kill' results

Death is another term people have invented to assuage the pains of what is incomprehensible. There is no after-life because there is no death.

How do you know the hummingbird doesn't think the same thing? How could a Being create people so perfect with arms and legs? The ability to travel the globe? Create art, movies, and dance? The ability to leave earth altogether, visit another place, and return, while also living in space? The ability to build places where they can get out of the rain and snow anytime they wish without needing to move just to avoid dying? Think you get the idea.

As for your last question....the same Being did not design both. Unless you are claiming BP somehow traveled back in time to India over 2200 years ago.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What do you mean there is no death? There is death. Look around you. Read the news. See dead insects on your windshield.

 

[CurveLight]

You asked why the laws were changed and Heb 8 states why. You may claim it is insufficient to your taste but don't add more layers of dishonesty to you bag of crybaby tears.

I did not claim it is insufficient. It is clear to me now you are no more able to read and interpret my posts as you are your own holy book. So I'll break it down for you. I asked why the LAWS were changed. Heb 8 states why the COVENANT was changed. Note how they are not the same word. I know how the big words can get all confusing for dumb hicks, but a quick googling will enlighten you and explain that a covenant is a fancy way of saying "agreement". So Heb 8 explains why the agreement was changed: because the old people forgot about it and it needed to be re-established. It does not however state that the law was changed, nor does this passage say why the law was changed.

Again, this has little to do with an explanation being insufficient, so much as non-existent. But hey, if you claim I'm wrong without supporting anything you say, and back it up with words like "crybaby" that you seem to call everyone, maybe you can convince yourself you're right! Cuz you're sure not convincing anyone else.

I have supported it you whiny jackass. You obviously don't understand because you claim the old Covenant needed to be re-established because people forgot about it. Pay attention you asswipe snob:

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear."

Nothing was "re-established" you ignorant hick. Nobody "forgot" about the old Covenant either and that claim shows how unbelievably ignorant you are. They were unable to maintain their end of the deal so God made a new Covenant.

If you change a Covenant then the laws must also be changed. If no laws are changed then the Covenant is the same. If you change the laws then the Covenant must also be changed.

Your attempt to paint others as dimwitted while you clearly do not grasp fundamentals is fucking hilarious. Bitches like you do this because you think you are intellectually superior to people of Faith but it stings really bad when you realize you are not shooting fish in a barrel as you hoped. You are the fish.

 

[blu]

blu, I agree with you. But I don't dismiss the beliefs some have about an After-Life as pointless defense mechanisms. I think some folks truly believe there is a parallel universe or alternate reality or whatnot where the egos of the living survive after their death.

I'm not sure why so many claim they believe this, or why so many seem to plan their entire lives around the belief. Why would knowing you survive death as some sort of ego have any bearing on deciding what is right and wrong while you are alive?

are you asking this rhetorically? how many people have you seen on message boards alone where they say that before they became religious or without religion they were basically savages. The only thing keep many poor people in check is that they are indoctrinated about hell. as another example imagine if all the women in middle astern countries found out that muhammad was a pedophile fraud and that they really didn't have to accept getting raped by their husband and his freinds everynight to get to heaven

 

[CurveLight]

What do you mean there is no death? There is death. Look around you. Read the news. See dead insects on your windshield.

Everything is always in motion. Even when a body ceases to function it is still in motion through decomposition and even after the flesh has melted off the bones continue to change through motion, albeit a lot slower than flesh. What we call "death" is a transformation transcending our finite comprehension abilities.

A rough analogy is a gallon of milk. You can buy one and set it outside. Do nothing to it, do not touch it at all and leave it there for two weeks. At the end of that time period look at it again. Would it still look like milk or something else? It would be clumpy, have a foul odor, and have a different appearance in color. In essence the milk has "died" but since we can use science to give a methodical explanation of the transformation we are not intrigued nor do we need to invent theological theories on why we no longer recognize it as milk.

Imagine the same scientific access for explaining what happens to living bodies. We have this ability with the caterpillar to butterfly, as well as other creatures who go through a metamorphosis. We call it "death" not because of the change from functioning to non-functioning, but only because we do not understand that change.

 

[CurveLight]

blu, I agree with you. But I don't dismiss the beliefs some have about an After-Life as pointless defense mechanisms. I think some folks truly believe there is a parallel universe or alternate reality or whatnot where the egos of the living survive after their death.

I'm not sure why so many claim they believe this, or why so many seem to plan their entire lives around the belief. Why would knowing you survive death as some sort of ego have any bearing on deciding what is right and wrong while you are alive?

are you asking this rhetorically? how many people have you seen on message boards alone where they say that before they became religious or without religion they were basically savages. The only thing keep many poor people in check is that they are indoctrinated about hell. as another example imagine if all the women in middle astern countries found out that muhammad was a pedophile fraud and that they really didn't have to accept getting raped by their husband and his freinds everynight to get to heaven

This concludes this hour's portion of theological musings of bigots. Up next, Don Black with give his objective and unbiased views of African Americans.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Better thread title:

Why would anybody care why Madmutt is or isn't a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Druid . . . .

Because we find some of her premises compelling and we're interested in religious topics.

Which premise did you find "compelling"? Was it when she dismissed the entire clergy of the Catholic Church as "sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits [sic]"? When she admitted that she's heard many answers to her questions, but decided none of them were really answers because she personally didn't happen to like them? Perhaps it was one of the multiple times she denigrated Christians as "nutters" and "evil", or maybe it was when she pretended that children's representations of Christian concepts were serious doctrinal tenets in order to further mock and insult the whole of the Christian community.

I'm really curious about when it was that Mad said anything "compelling" or, for that matter, with more intellectual depth than your average mud puddle.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You know how you know you are winning a debate? When the other side fabricates you made an argument (that you never made) and then argues against that.

Where did I say you can't question the Bible? I didn't.

I simply pointed out what the op boiled down to is, "there can't be a God, because there is suffering."

But, I'm sorry, that really means "There can't be a God, because God would do things my way."

It's really is a statement that there can't be a God, because the universe doesn't revolve around what the great I, ME, MINE thinks should be right.

It's the reasoning of a three year old.

Just because I point out that the Bible makes it plain there will be suffering, does not mean you can't question that.

It just means I'll probably be able to easily counter that argument.

So, please don't make up arguments that don't exist. It just makes you look desperate.

Your reading comprehension skills suck, teapartsamurai. You have made the same mistake as Cecille -- you read "I am not a christain" to mean "I am an atheist". But there are OTHER religions, and each of them has a vision of God. There are even people who just don't know (agnostics).

I don't belong to any religion and yet I DO believe. I have ZERO doubt that God exists, just as I have ZERO doubt that irrational hatred like yours is Evil.

If you feel you can explain why Evil exists, then please do so. Believe me, I'd love to have an explanation. But so far, nothing you have written leads me to believe that I can learn much of anything from you.

Nice try but stating, "I am not a Christian" is saying you have closed your mind off to possible answers to your questions.

And I am "evil" because I question YOU??????

You really do think you're God, don't you? The arrogance gets worse by the moment.

Honey, I haven't misidentified you at all. Sure you believe in a "god." A little image of YOU that makes you feel comfortable, like all people that claim to be agnostic/atheist/I believe in god/gia/etc etc etc.

You can argue otherwise, but you let the truth slip out when you claimed I was "eeeeeeeeeeeeeevil" for simply questioning YOU.

Your the god in your mind, whether you directly recognize it or not.

I find it interesting that Mad can start off an entire thread by calling Christians "evil, sadistic fuckwhits [sic]", "nutters", etc., and then accuse someone ELSE of being hate-filled and evil merely because they - rather mildly, in fact - criticize HER and HER beliefs. I guess it's a good thing you didn't attack her beliefs at the same level she attacked others.

Hypocrisy much?

 

[CurveLight]

Your reading comprehension skills suck, teapartsamurai. You have made the same mistake as Cecille -- you read "I am not a christain" to mean "I am an atheist". But there are OTHER religions, and each of them has a vision of God. There are even people who just don't know (agnostics).

I don't belong to any religion and yet I DO believe. I have ZERO doubt that God exists, just as I have ZERO doubt that irrational hatred like yours is Evil.

If you feel you can explain why Evil exists, then please do so. Believe me, I'd love to have an explanation. But so far, nothing you have written leads me to believe that I can learn much of anything from you.

Nice try but stating, "I am not a Christian" is saying you have closed your mind off to possible answers to your questions.

And I am "evil" because I question YOU??????

You really do think you're God, don't you? The arrogance gets worse by the moment.

Honey, I haven't misidentified you at all. Sure you believe in a "god." A little image of YOU that makes you feel comfortable, like all people that claim to be agnostic/atheist/I believe in god/gia/etc etc etc.

You can argue otherwise, but you let the truth slip out when you claimed I was "eeeeeeeeeeeeeevil" for simply questioning YOU.

Your the god in your mind, whether you directly recognize it or not.

I find it interesting that Mad can start off an entire thread by calling Christians "evil, sadistic fuckwhits [sic]", "nutters", etc., and then accuse someone ELSE of being hate-filled and evil merely because they - rather mildly, in fact - criticize HER and HER beliefs. I guess it's a good thing you didn't attack her beliefs at the same level she attacked others.

Hypocrisy much?

Stop fucking whining or give us all coupons for snorkel equipment so we won't drown in your tears of self righteousness.