A Young Woman Stoned for Adultery

[ChrisL]

You are just grasping at straws now. My link demonstrates that the majority of Muslims who reside in "Muslim" countries in fact do support Sharia law, including the harsh punishments doled out to women. I cannot understand how anyone can defend that. Sickening.

chris------the real horror is that when it comes to stuff like honor killing and stoning for sex crimes for women------the people who support it just as much as the men are the WOMEN------including the mothers. Girls do not get the support of their own mothers and certainly not the support of their mothers-in-law. they are in many circumstances, completely abandoned

Actually you're right about that, and the same is true of FGM, which is normally performed by the women.

--- which both underscore everything I've noted about its roots in ancient culture -- not in religion. And what I keep saying about these traditions' base in patriarchy.

of course it is done by women-----it involves a NAKED GIRL-----muslim men do not
fool around with naked girls EXCEPT to screw them. Muslim men do not do child
care. The women do it with religious conviction just as they support and sometimes even participate in honor killings out of RELIGIOIUS CONVICTION.
Your focus on the FIRST WHO DID IT-----is idiotic. Muslims incorporated it
into ISLAM and took it to every place in which islam was either introduced or
imposed . You could claim that no eating pig is not a religious custom too----go
right ahead and let us know why you failed anthropology

"Muslim" ain't got nuttin' to do with it. It's --- ONCE AGAIN -- NOT A RELIGIOUS RITUAL. And no, Muslims did not "incorporate it". Matter of fact in Mecca it's considered pagan and barbaric.

FGM has *>NO<* repeat NO religious function in Islam or in any other religion. Go ahead -- try to prove me wrong. Find it in the Koran.

Fellow posters-----the big MO ----according to accounts in the koran/hadiths-----
mentions FGM------and advises that the procedure be moderately done----
which is good-------he never called it barbaric or advised against it-----Pogo either
never read the book or is a liar/

Exactly, and here is a Muslim website where they are advocating for and stating that FGM is "prescribed" by Islam.

Circumcision of girls and some doctors’ criticism thereof - islamqa.info

In the fatwa of Dar al-Ifta’ al-Misriyyah (6/1986) it says:

Thus it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour. As for the opinions of doctors who say that female circumcision is harmful, these are individual opinions which are not derived from any agreed scientific basis, and they do not form an established scientific opinion. They acknowledge that the rates of cancer among circumcised men are lower than among those who are not circumcised, and some of these doctors clearly recommend that circumcision should be done by doctors and not these ignorant women, so that the operation will be safe and there will be no negative consequences. However, medical theories about disease and the way to treat it are not fixed, rather they change with time and with ongoing research. So it is not correct to rely on them when criticizing circumcision which the Wise and All-Knowing Lawgiver has decreed in His wisdom for mankind. Experience has taught us that the wisdom behind some rulings and Sunnahs may be hidden from us. May Allaah help us all to follow the right path. End quote.

 

[ChrisL]

Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Historical religious views[edit]
The historical religious view of Islam, on FGM, varies with the school of Islamic jurisprudence:[21]

• The Shafi'i school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be wajib (obligatory).[22]
• The Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be makrumah (honorable) and strongly encouraged, to obligatory.[23]
• The Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be sunnah (optional) and preferred.[23]
• The Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be sunnah (preferred).[23]

 

[JoeB131]

You can't compare the murderous actions of radical Islam with the actions of an unlimited powerful state. Radical Islam commits heinous acts because they think their religion dictates they do. The State commits war because that is what a powerful unlimited state does...war enriches and empowers the state. It has nothing to do with religion. I have told you over and over war is the health of the state...this can not be refuted.
Your hypocrisy is your love of the big unlimited omnipresent state, which commits these wars, but only if a D is in charge.

Guy, you can't go repeating libertarian crazy and expect to be taken seriously.

The state is the people. When we get into wars, it is usually with the enthusiastic support of the people. We re-elected Bush even though it was pretty clear he lied about WMD's. Blaming "the state" for what we do is just silly. The state is us. i know this is hard for you to grasp, living in whatever basement you are living in without steady employment.

If Islam is Radical, it's radical because of two centuries of the Christian West sticking their dicks in their hornet's nest.

 

[ChrisL]

You can't compare the murderous actions of radical Islam with the actions of an unlimited powerful state. Radical Islam commits heinous acts because they think their religion dictates they do. The State commits war because that is what a powerful unlimited state does...war enriches and empowers the state. It has nothing to do with religion. I have told you over and over war is the health of the state...this can not be refuted.
Your hypocrisy is your love of the big unlimited omnipresent state, which commits these wars, but only if a D is in charge.

Guy, you can't go repeating libertarian crazy and expect to be taken seriously.

The state is the people. When we get into wars, it is usually with the enthusiastic support of the people. We re-elected Bush even though it was pretty clear he lied about WMD's. Blaming "the state" for what we do is just silly. The state is us. i know this is hard for you to grasp, living in whatever basement you are living in without steady employment.

If Islam is Radical, it's radical because of two centuries of the Christian West sticking their dicks in their hornet's nest.

No, they are "radical" because they haven't changed or progressed in past thousands of years.

 

[gipper]

You can't compare the murderous actions of radical Islam with the actions of an unlimited powerful state. Radical Islam commits heinous acts because they think their religion dictates they do. The State commits war because that is what a powerful unlimited state does...war enriches and empowers the state. It has nothing to do with religion. I have told you over and over war is the health of the state...this can not be refuted.
Your hypocrisy is your love of the big unlimited omnipresent state, which commits these wars, but only if a D is in charge.

Guy, you can't go repeating libertarian crazy and expect to be taken seriously.

The state is the people. When we get into wars, it is usually with the enthusiastic support of the people. We re-elected Bush even though it was pretty clear he lied about WMD's. Blaming "the state" for what we do is just silly. The state is us. i know this is hard for you to grasp, living in whatever basement you are living in without steady employment.

If Islam is Radical, it's radical because of two centuries of the Christian West sticking their dicks in their hornet's nest.

Damn Joey you really are losing it.

The State is the people...WTF!!!...you really believe our government is of the people, by the people, for the people???....oh please. What complete and utterly BS.

The state is for, by and of the elites....and the elites are NOT Christian fundamentalists.

Lets stick to the topic at hand...your silly belief that Muslims stoning a women for adultery is the same thing as the American Christian state's bombing people, but only if an R is POTUS.

 

[irosie91]

Emily-----you are playing the "ALL" game that is a characteristic of propagandaists-----are you a propagandaists? I have never met a single person in my life who blamed ALL CHRISTIANS for the slavery that was practiced in the pre civil war USA------you are ALL GAME is a libel. Libels are for lynch gangs. For the fact that slavery was LEGAL in the USA------the USA as a group is culpable---that fact does not make ALL people at that time culpable. As to muslims----for the fact that oppression of non muslims is LEGAL in Islamic law-----MUSLIMS as a group are culpable ----that fact does not make ALL MUSLIMS guilty of the reality of Islamic law. ALL GERMANS are not Nazis and ALL GERMANS are not guilty of the
atrocities committed by hitler. I consider your comments to be LIBELS against the victims of Islamic atrocities in the present, and Nazi atrocities in recent past, and
Christian atrocities in the more remote past. Those people and the people who carred the family legacy of those atrocities have a RIGHT to blame the perpetrators

WHAT???

OMG I have met Atheists who absolutely blame Christians!!
CANNOT forgive them and CANNOT acknowledge any good at all.
People who truly believe that any good that has been accomplished by Christians
"could have been done without that" and basically attack it for being a religion as not worth the damage caused.

I went to a presentation by Louis Farakhan where he blamed
the "white man's laws" for enslaving Blacks as property and
preached to the audience that these laws were not for them but for "whites" to control others.

irosie91 it may be "just a phase" people go through
where it is easy to blame a nameable target.

But definitely, I have met people who blame religion in general
or blame Christianity specifically and can't get past that.

irosie91 again I would say any religion that isn't checked
from imposition through govt is going to cause problems.

Look at North Korea and China and their oppression of
their citizens, without due process or other protections.

is Islam to blame for that?

No, the common factor in those cases is "no check on govt power"
so that the rulers' beliefs and judgment instantly become law carried out.

Islam does not have checks built into it
the same way Christian and Constitutional laws
prescribe the process of redressing grievances and correction.

The people I know who are consistent with their Islamic faith

So you are right irosie91 that you can just blame one group for "ALL"
and expect that will solve everyone's problems. At least you and I might agree on that..

sorry again for confusion

I am not confused------you are. Islam is an ideology that includes a legal system
which is quite equivalent to that of Christians in general and equivalent to the
judicial system of Judaism. In fact its legal system is quite intricate and logical.
Its laws stink to high heaven as did the laws of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE and other forms of Christianity for most of the history of Christianity. The law of the
Christian church ----virtually mandated the INQUISITION----and in the USA ---
the major sects certainly did consider slavery to be legal. I have no idea what
Jesus thought of slavery-----but PAUL supported it which according to the NT
was based on his DREAM REVELATIONS. Jewish law was equivocal on slavery-----allowing but limiting it and rejecting chattel slavery ----later on it became outlawed sorta effectively----almost. (by rabbinical edict which means some people could have had a chance to reject HIS ideas). You are trying to claim ---
NO BLAME for evil

Dear irosie91

No, I'm pointing to the root evil being greater than any religious label.
Not denying it, but pinpointing it more precisely.

I would AGREE with you that any "legal" system that CONFLICTS
with civil authority, due process, etc is wrongful and cannot be enforced as law.

With Islam, it depends if followers work WITH Constitutional limits on govt.

When these same Islamic beliefs are practiced
WITHIN a Christian framework -- which is also part of the Muslim teachings --
and WITH normal respect for the civil govt and authority of the country,
there is no such problem.

In that case, Emily-----you remain confused. Islamic law is---if anything ---VERY CLEAR AND LOGICAL and it simply cannot function within the constitution of
the USA or even the UN UNIVERSAL RIGHTS OF MAN. For that reason several Islamic states reject the UNIVERSAL RIGHTS OF MAN thing that the UN proposed. It is absolutely clear in shariah law that non muslims are INFERIOR
before the law and their rights are absolutely not equal to those of muslims. I will give you an example-----the testimony of a non muslim against a muslim is utterly
invalid in a shariah court. In all cases of legal decision----- both islam and
the individual muslim WINS. In fact the only way for a non muslim to bring a case
before a shariah court would be for the muslim chieftain to be the aggrieved party.
Ie----the muslim chieftain can complain-------"that muslim kid over there raped
this Christian who is one of MY CHRISTIANS----I want compensation". Depending on how important that Christian is to that muslim chieftain or
her family-----the matter might be an issue before the court. Another example----
were a muslim to kill a Christian man------the penalty would be something like
a payment to the family of the murdered person of 1/4 the value of the life of a muslim man. Say "thanks" I have given you a lesson in shariah law. My very own husband was born in a shariah cesspit. Here is another example of ISLAMIC LAW-------you might remember the journalist Daneil Pearl who was visiting
Pakistan and was grabbed and his throat slit -------The deed was video taped
by the throat slitters. You might ask "way"? easy-----for DEFENSE-----Daniel
Pearl stated "I am a jew and my parents are jews"-----thus making the murder
legal in Islamic law since Daniel was not a DHIMMI------he was a jew and not
under the "PROTECTION" (you can read that enslaved) by a muslim. He had
no status in Islamic law------the only way he could have saved himself would be
by declaring "I WANT TO BE A MUSLIM" Sorry for the length----there is more---
In order to make the world happy---Pakistan convened a special NON SHARIAH
court to try the murderers------they were sentenced to death----but to make the
muslims happy -----they were never executed

 

[irosie91]

chris------the real horror is that when it comes to stuff like honor killing
and stoning for sex crimes for women------the people who support it just as
much as the men are the WOMEN------including the mothers. Girls
do not get the support of their own mothers and certainly not the
support of their mothers-in-law. they are in many circumstances, completely
abandoned

Yet the same rightwingers who bitch about "honor killings' are the same one who will mock black families for having a 70% out of wedlock birthrate.

a completely unrelated issue, Joe dear. In fact black mothers are very supportive
of their daughters -----in the USA

 

[Pogo]

No, not discriminating. Looking at life through the lens called "reality."

I am indeed. Thangyew. Thangyew vurra much.

No, I am the realistic one. You want to bury your head in the sand and deny that there are real "social" problems with ONE particular religion pretty much everywhere it seems.

I do deny that it applies to "ONE particular religion", yes. That makes me the one with his head OUT OF the sand.
That's because I don't just swallow every meme the media tries to sell me without putting it through a smell test.

An approach you might be well advised to try.

And it does not go unnoticed that your last two words are "it seems". "It seems" just ain't good enough.

Well if you deny that most of the honor killing violence you hear about is not usually related to ONE particular religion, then I am going to call you "ostrich boy."

Dear ChrisL
With the honor killings, how many of these come out of Pakistani families?
I asked a Muslim friend of mine, and he said it is tied to Pakistani culture.

I would compare "honor killings" to equally tragic reports from India
of women burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands

Yes, it's illegal to do this.
But "some people" are still carrying out old traditions, because of their social conditioning.

For these illegal acts coming out of India, is it fair to blame this on "Hinduism"?
It may be part of the old CULTURE,
but of course it isn't part of the law or religious beliefs that are AGAINST such acts.

If you are looking for an easy answer to blame it on,
I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

The conditioning goes deeper.

Thank you Emily. I've already pointed this out, linked to scholars, linked to historical evidence, and linked to case histories all indicating the same thing. But self-delusion is apparently powerful stuff.

I think it's important to get this right so that the disease, not the symptom, gets addressed. Otherwise, left to the emotion-based mythology, all we do is play wack-a-mole, and that's a game that has no end.

 

[irosie91]

I am indeed. Thangyew. Thangyew vurra much.

No, I am the realistic one. You want to bury your head in the sand and deny that there are real "social" problems with ONE particular religion pretty much everywhere it seems.

I do deny that it applies to "ONE particular religion", yes. That makes me the one with his head OUT OF the sand.
That's because I don't just swallow every meme the media tries to sell me without putting it through a smell test.

An approach you might be well advised to try.

And it does not go unnoticed that your last two words are "it seems". "It seems" just ain't good enough.

Well if you deny that most of the honor killing violence you hear about is not usually related to ONE particular religion, then I am going to call you "ostrich boy."

Dear ChrisL
With the honor killings, how many of these come out of Pakistani families?
I asked a Muslim friend of mine, and he said it is tied to Pakistani culture.

I would compare "honor killings" to equally tragic reports from India
of women burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands

Yes, it's illegal to do this.
But "some people" are still carrying out old traditions, because of their social conditioning.

For these illegal acts coming out of India, is it fair to blame this on "Hinduism"?
It may be part of the old CULTURE,
but of course it isn't part of the law or religious beliefs that are AGAINST such acts.

If you are looking for an easy answer to blame it on,
I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

The conditioning goes deeper.

Thank you Emily. I've already pointed this out, linked to scholars, linked to historical evidence, and linked to case histories all indicating the same thing. But self-delusion is apparently powerful stuff.

I think it's important to get this right so that the disease, not the symptom, gets addressed. Otherwise, left to the emotion-based mythology, all we do is play wack-a-mole, and that's a game that has no end.

yes-----getting it RIGHT is a good idea. HONOR BASED VIOLENCE ----is not the same as ADJUDICATION IN A COURT OF LAW -------Pogo is fumfering

 

[Pogo]

I am indeed. Thangyew. Thangyew vurra much.

No, I am the realistic one. You want to bury your head in the sand and deny that there are real "social" problems with ONE particular religion pretty much everywhere it seems.

I do deny that it applies to "ONE particular religion", yes. That makes me the one with his head OUT OF the sand.
That's because I don't just swallow every meme the media tries to sell me without putting it through a smell test.

An approach you might be well advised to try.

And it does not go unnoticed that your last two words are "it seems". "It seems" just ain't good enough.

Well if you deny that most of the honor killing violence you hear about is not usually related to ONE particular religion, then I am going to call you "ostrich boy."

Dear ChrisL
With the honor killings, how many of these come out of Pakistani families?
I asked a Muslim friend of mine, and he said it is tied to Pakistani culture.

I would compare "honor killings" to equally tragic reports from India
of women burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands

Yes, it's illegal to do this.
But "some people" are still carrying out old traditions, because of their social conditioning.

For these illegal acts coming out of India, is it fair to blame this on "Hinduism"?
It may be part of the old CULTURE,
but of course it isn't part of the law or religious beliefs that are AGAINST such acts.

If you are looking for an easy answer to blame it on,
I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

The conditioning goes deeper.

Burning a widow on the funeral pyre of her husband is DEFINITELY a rite linked to
Hinduism. I have never met a HINDU who denied that fact. I have known lots of educated hindus-----it has been made illegal in India and was probably restricted to
WEALTHY UPPER CLASS hindus even in ancient times. Lots of hindu girls find it
"romantic" There is a belief that burning together will give the couple ---eternal togetherness in the reincarnation game. Muslims who deny that FGM is
linked to islam are lying. There have been a few cases of hindu wives PREVENTED from jumping on the funeral pyre who committed suicide in order
to accomplish the custom. "BLAME"??? why say "blame" an honest
evaluation is the answer. ---------sati >>>HINDU FGM >>> islam -----out dated
and in some places illegal. Sati is illegal and-----seems to be not done in India---
FGM is done in Pakistan-----and thruout the Islamic world ----in some places
it is illegal. Anthropology is a real social science-----liars do it poorly

Complete bullshit. With the customary lack of any link at all.

Part the first: castes

>> Some scholars of caste have considered jāti to have its basis in religion, assuming that in India the sacred elements of life envelope the secular aspects; for example, the anthropologist Louis Dumont described the ritual rankings that exist within the jāti system as being based on the concepts of religious purity and pollution.[25] This view has been disputed by other scholars, who believe it to be a secular social phenomenon driven by the necessities of economics, politics, and sometimes also geography.[24][25][26][27]
....
Jātis have existed in India among Hindus, Muslims, Christians and tribal people, and there is no clear linear order.[31]
<< --- Caste system in India: Origins (Wiki)

--- and from the intro paragraph on that page:
>> Although the varnas and jatis have pre-modern origins, the caste system as it exists today is the result of developments during the collapse of Mughal era and the British colonial regime in India.[2][11] The collapse of Mughal era saw the rise of powerful men who associated themselves with kings, priests and ascetics, affirming the regal and martial form of the caste ideal, and it also reshaped many apparently casteless social groups into differentiated caste communities.[12] The British Raj furthered this development, making rigid caste organisation a central mechanism of administration.[2][11][4][13][page needed][5][14] Between 1860 and 1920, the British segregated Indians by caste, granting administrative jobs and senior appointments only to the upper castes. <<
​

-- which explains that the caste system as it exists today is partly a European-incited structure. But again, derived from politics, not religion.

Not to mention this, from the same intro:

>> The caste system has been challenged over time by Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, and many reformist movements in Hinduism.[18] However, aspects of the caste system continue to exist in India in all these religions.[18][19][20] <<​

Part the Second: FGM

>> The origins of the practice are unknown.[161] Its east-west, north-south distribution in Africa meets in Sudan, leading Gerry Mackie to speculate that infibulation originated with the Meroite civilization and imperial polygyny, before the rise of Islam, to increase confidence in paternity.[162]

...
The proposed circumcision of an Egyptian girl, Tathemis, is mentioned on a Greek papyrus from 163 BCE in the British Museum:

Sometime after this, Nephoris [Tathemis's mother] defrauded me, being anxious that it was time for Tathemis to be circumcised, as is the custom among the Egyptians. She asked that I give her 1,300 drachmae ... to clothe her ... and to provide her with a marriage dowry ... if she didn't do each of these or if she did not circumcise Tathemis in the month of Mecheir, year 18 [163 BCE], she would repay me 2,400 drachmae on the spot.[164]

...
The Greek geographer Strabo (c. 64 BCE – c. 23 CE) wrote about FGM after visiting Egypt around 25 BCE.[n 19][n 20] The philosopher Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – 50 CE) also made reference to it: "the Egyptians by the custom of their country circumcise the marriageable youth and maid in the fourteenth (year) of their age, when the male begins to get seed, and the female to have a menstrual flow."[169] It is mentioned briefly in a work attributed to the Greek physician Galen (129 – c. 200 CE): "When [the clitoris] sticks out to a great extent in their young women, Egyptians consider it appropriate to cut it out."[170]

Another Greek physician, Aëtius of Amida (mid-5th to mid-6th century CE), offered more detail in book 16 of his Sixteen Books on Medicine, citing the physician Philomenes. The procedure was performed in case the clitoris, or nymphê, grew too large or triggered sexual desire when rubbing against clothing. "On this account, it seemed proper to the Egyptians to remove it before it became greatly enlarged," Aëtius wrote, "especially at that time when the girls were about to be married": <<
​

Once again --- linear time rears its head. ALL of the above citations were recorded before Mohammad or Islam existed. Moreover this cultural artifact is concentrated in Africa, and not in the greater Muslim world, including Christian nations.

>> Why would a mother be willing to have such a cruel, painful and highly risky procedure, which has no benefits for her at all performed on her daughter? The answer is often economic. In societies that practice FGM, daughters are an essential part of their parents “retirement plan” (which of course does not exist in most of the countries where FGM is being practices). Arranged marriages are a vital part of a family’s income, especially as the parents get older and may no longer be able to work. In societies where FGM is the norm, not mutilating one’s daughters would make it very difficult, if not impossible to marry them. This is a huge financial and social risk for a mother to take.<< --- FGM and Poverty​

In fact it was used here and in "modern" Europe as late as the 19th century to control pseudo-conditions like "nymphomania" --- which is essentially also its ancient purpose in Africa.

Once AGAIN, he said to the wilfully blind, what this all has in common is not religion or language or race -- it's patriarchy. It's the social order and the way it's perceived within that community's values.

 

[Pogo]

Emily-----you are playing the "ALL" game that is a characteristic of propagandaists-----are you a propagandaists? I have never met a single person in my life who blamed ALL CHRISTIANS for the slavery that was practiced in the pre civil war USA------you are ALL GAME is a libel. Libels are for lynch gangs

I presume you mean "labels" on the end there...

What you're trying to describe here is a blanket generalization fallacy -- yet that's exactly what your position here is based on, ascribing this, that and the other thing to "Islam" in spite of evidence presented to the contrary ---- stoning in the OT.... FGM in the BCE era and performed by American and European doctors.... HBV in India and around the world -- that disprove your blanket statements. All you've given us in lieu of links is a grand Composition Fallacy. And that's intentional ignorance.

 

[ChrisL]

I am indeed. Thangyew. Thangyew vurra much.

No, I am the realistic one. You want to bury your head in the sand and deny that there are real "social" problems with ONE particular religion pretty much everywhere it seems.

I do deny that it applies to "ONE particular religion", yes. That makes me the one with his head OUT OF the sand.
That's because I don't just swallow every meme the media tries to sell me without putting it through a smell test.

An approach you might be well advised to try.

And it does not go unnoticed that your last two words are "it seems". "It seems" just ain't good enough.

Well if you deny that most of the honor killing violence you hear about is not usually related to ONE particular religion, then I am going to call you "ostrich boy."

Dear ChrisL
With the honor killings, how many of these come out of Pakistani families?
I asked a Muslim friend of mine, and he said it is tied to Pakistani culture.

I would compare "honor killings" to equally tragic reports from India
of women burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands

Yes, it's illegal to do this.
But "some people" are still carrying out old traditions, because of their social conditioning.

For these illegal acts coming out of India, is it fair to blame this on "Hinduism"?
It may be part of the old CULTURE,
but of course it isn't part of the law or religious beliefs that are AGAINST such acts.

If you are looking for an easy answer to blame it on,
I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

The conditioning goes deeper.

Thank you Emily. I've already pointed this out, linked to scholars, linked to historical evidence, and linked to case histories all indicating the same thing. But self-delusion is apparently powerful stuff.

I think it's important to get this right so that the disease, not the symptom, gets addressed. Otherwise, left to the emotion-based mythology, all we do is play wack-a-mole, and that's a game that has no end.

I've already posted links proving otherwise.

 

[ChrisL]

I am indeed. Thangyew. Thangyew vurra much.

No, I am the realistic one. You want to bury your head in the sand and deny that there are real "social" problems with ONE particular religion pretty much everywhere it seems.

I do deny that it applies to "ONE particular religion", yes. That makes me the one with his head OUT OF the sand.
That's because I don't just swallow every meme the media tries to sell me without putting it through a smell test.

An approach you might be well advised to try.

And it does not go unnoticed that your last two words are "it seems". "It seems" just ain't good enough.

Well if you deny that most of the honor killing violence you hear about is not usually related to ONE particular religion, then I am going to call you "ostrich boy."

Dear ChrisL
With the honor killings, how many of these come out of Pakistani families?
I asked a Muslim friend of mine, and he said it is tied to Pakistani culture.

I would compare "honor killings" to equally tragic reports from India
of women burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands

Yes, it's illegal to do this.
But "some people" are still carrying out old traditions, because of their social conditioning.

For these illegal acts coming out of India, is it fair to blame this on "Hinduism"?
It may be part of the old CULTURE,
but of course it isn't part of the law or religious beliefs that are AGAINST such acts.

If you are looking for an easy answer to blame it on,
I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

The conditioning goes deeper.

Thank you Emily. I've already pointed this out, linked to scholars, linked to historical evidence, and linked to case histories all indicating the same thing. But self-delusion is apparently powerful stuff.

I think it's important to get this right so that the disease, not the symptom, gets addressed. Otherwise, left to the emotion-based mythology, all we do is play wack-a-mole, and that's a game that has no end.

For starters, posts 361 and 362.

 

[irosie91]

No, I am the realistic one. You want to bury your head in the sand and deny that there are real "social" problems with ONE particular religion pretty much everywhere it seems.

I do deny that it applies to "ONE particular religion", yes. That makes me the one with his head OUT OF the sand.
That's because I don't just swallow every meme the media tries to sell me without putting it through a smell test.

An approach you might be well advised to try.

And it does not go unnoticed that your last two words are "it seems". "It seems" just ain't good enough.

Well if you deny that most of the honor killing violence you hear about is not usually related to ONE particular religion, then I am going to call you "ostrich boy."

Dear ChrisL
With the honor killings, how many of these come out of Pakistani families?
I asked a Muslim friend of mine, and he said it is tied to Pakistani culture.

I would compare "honor killings" to equally tragic reports from India
of women burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands

Yes, it's illegal to do this.
But "some people" are still carrying out old traditions, because of their social conditioning.

For these illegal acts coming out of India, is it fair to blame this on "Hinduism"?
It may be part of the old CULTURE,
but of course it isn't part of the law or religious beliefs that are AGAINST such acts.

If you are looking for an easy answer to blame it on,
I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

The conditioning goes deeper.

Burning a widow on the funeral pyre of her husband is DEFINITELY a rite linked to
Hinduism. I have never met a HINDU who denied that fact. I have known lots of educated hindus-----it has been made illegal in India and was probably restricted to
WEALTHY UPPER CLASS hindus even in ancient times. Lots of hindu girls find it
"romantic" There is a belief that burning together will give the couple ---eternal togetherness in the reincarnation game. Muslims who deny that FGM is
linked to islam are lying. There have been a few cases of hindu wives PREVENTED from jumping on the funeral pyre who committed suicide in order
to accomplish the custom. "BLAME"??? why say "blame" an honest
evaluation is the answer. ---------sati >>>HINDU FGM >>> islam -----out dated
and in some places illegal. Sati is illegal and-----seems to be not done in India---
FGM is done in Pakistan-----and thruout the Islamic world ----in some places
it is illegal. Anthropology is a real social science-----liars do it poorly

Complete bullshit. With the customary lack of any link at all.

Part the first: castes

>> Some scholars of caste have considered jāti to have its basis in religion, assuming that in India the sacred elements of life envelope the secular aspects; for example, the anthropologist Louis Dumont described the ritual rankings that exist within the jāti system as being based on the concepts of religious purity and pollution.[25] This view has been disputed by other scholars, who believe it to be a secular social phenomenon driven by the necessities of economics, politics, and sometimes also geography.[24][25][26][27]
....
Jātis have existed in India among Hindus, Muslims, Christians and tribal people, and there is no clear linear order.[31]
<< --- Caste system in India: Origins (Wiki)

--- and from the intro paragraph on that page:
>> Although the varnas and jatis have pre-modern origins, the caste system as it exists today is the result of developments during the collapse of Mughal era and the British colonial regime in India.[2][11] The collapse of Mughal era saw the rise of powerful men who associated themselves with kings, priests and ascetics, affirming the regal and martial form of the caste ideal, and it also reshaped many apparently casteless social groups into differentiated caste communities.[12] The British Raj furthered this development, making rigid caste organisation a central mechanism of administration.[2][11][4][13][page needed][5][14] Between 1860 and 1920, the British segregated Indians by caste, granting administrative jobs and senior appointments only to the upper castes. <<
​

-- which explains that the caste system as it exists today is partly a European-incited structure. But again, derived from politics, not religion.

Not to mention this, from the same intro:

>> The caste system has been challenged over time by Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, and many reformist movements in Hinduism.[18] However, aspects of the caste system continue to exist in India in all these religions.[18][19][20] <<​

Part the Second: FGM

>> The origins of the practice are unknown.[161] Its east-west, north-south distribution in Africa meets in Sudan, leading Gerry Mackie to speculate that infibulation originated with the Meroite civilization and imperial polygyny, before the rise of Islam, to increase confidence in paternity.[162]

...
The proposed circumcision of an Egyptian girl, Tathemis, is mentioned on a Greek papyrus from 163 BCE in the British Museum:

Sometime after this, Nephoris [Tathemis's mother] defrauded me, being anxious that it was time for Tathemis to be circumcised, as is the custom among the Egyptians. She asked that I give her 1,300 drachmae ... to clothe her ... and to provide her with a marriage dowry ... if she didn't do each of these or if she did not circumcise Tathemis in the month of Mecheir, year 18 [163 BCE], she would repay me 2,400 drachmae on the spot.[164]

...
The Greek geographer Strabo (c. 64 BCE – c. 23 CE) wrote about FGM after visiting Egypt around 25 BCE.[n 19][n 20] The philosopher Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – 50 CE) also made reference to it: "the Egyptians by the custom of their country circumcise the marriageable youth and maid in the fourteenth (year) of their age, when the male begins to get seed, and the female to have a menstrual flow."[169] It is mentioned briefly in a work attributed to the Greek physician Galen (129 – c. 200 CE): "When [the clitoris] sticks out to a great extent in their young women, Egyptians consider it appropriate to cut it out."[170]

Another Greek physician, Aëtius of Amida (mid-5th to mid-6th century CE), offered more detail in book 16 of his Sixteen Books on Medicine, citing the physician Philomenes. The procedure was performed in case the clitoris, or nymphê, grew too large or triggered sexual desire when rubbing against clothing. "On this account, it seemed proper to the Egyptians to remove it before it became greatly enlarged," Aëtius wrote, "especially at that time when the girls were about to be married": <<
​

Once again --- linear time rears its head. ALL of the above citations were recorded before Mohammad or Islam existed. Moreover this cultural artifact is concentrated in Africa, and not in the greater Muslim world, including Christian nations.

(background, from the source above) >> Why would a mother be willing to have such a cruel, painful and highly risky procedure, which has no benefits for her at all performed on her daughter? The answer is often economic. In societies that practice FGM, daughters are an essential part of their parents “retirement plan” (which of course does not exist in most of the countries where FGM is being practices). Arranged marriages are a vital part of a family’s income, especially as the parents get older and may no longer be able to work. In societies where FGM is the norm, not mutilating one’s daughters would make it very difficult, if not impossible to marry them. This is a huge financial and social risk for a mother to take.<< --- FGM and Poverty​

In fact it was used here and in "modern" Europe as late as the 19th century to control pseudo-conditions like "nymphomania" --- which is essentially also its ancient purpose in Africa.

Once AGAIN, he said to the wilfully blind, what this all has in common is not religion or language or race -- it's patriarchy. It's the social order and the way it's perceived within that community's values.

WATTA genius-----Pogo is pulling stuff out of his ANTHROPOLOGY 101
crème puff textbook ---------he imagines that no one else in the world did
those idiot electives. THE ORIGIN of FGM is interesting--------it is FUN---
when I was a student I considered courses like anthropology and the books
required to be stuff I did in BREAK TIME-------when calculus or organic
chemistry became tedious------I took a break-----and read my anthro. or soc.
books TO REST MY MIND. Pogo takes that past time course as being
ROCKET SCIENCE. Islam incorporated FGM into the CREED OF ISLAM ----
fairly recently since islam came to be fairly recently-----POGO MADE NO POINT.
Pogo reminds me of a now dead ARAB NATIONALIST activist of Iraqi origin.
Dr. M. T. Mehdi. He came to the USA to agitate for his friend Saddam way back
in the mid sixties and put his ass on TV and radio as much as he could------He ---
hated jews as much as did his friend SADDAM and somehow got all bent out
of shape that Israelis like PITA AND FELAFEL (believe it or not---really)
He gave an HYSTERICAL RANT ----ON RADIO screaming ----------
"PITAAAA IS ARRABBB" -----actually it is just a flatbread made with yeasted dough------that has existed thruout the middle east and into the far east for
thousands of years. The word itself is ----just a semitic word that shows up in
the Talmud--------SOPHISTRY POGO-------pita is flat bread----of a primitive kind
and FGM is a practice that likely began in EGYPT and is NOW-----overwhelmingly ISLAMIC and considered by muslims to be part and parcel
of ISLAMIC practice-------the big MO-----mentioned it somewhere in the koran/hadith thing Regarding clitorectomy as a "treatment" for
masturbation? so? weird but true. It was also used for treatment of CONGENITALLY ENLARGED clitoris The clitoris can be so enlarged at birth that it looks like a phallus---------is that not interesting? so? This fact has nothing to do with the routine practice of FGM in muslim populations. Pita is now
part of Israeli cuisine-------which makes it as jewish as the bagel-----
which is an adaptation of some thing made in Eastern Europe------however now
shows up on the tables of--------even Yemenite jews. Of course it is also
greek and ---------and New York City----but FGM IS NOT. You also remind me
of a Shiite muslim from India I knew long ago who tried to convince me that INDIAN cuisine------from chapatti and dal all the way to tandoori chicken and every spice
used in India was invented by the glorious MOGHULS

 

[irosie91]

No, I am the realistic one. You want to bury your head in the sand and deny that there are real "social" problems with ONE particular religion pretty much everywhere it seems.

I do deny that it applies to "ONE particular religion", yes. That makes me the one with his head OUT OF the sand.
That's because I don't just swallow every meme the media tries to sell me without putting it through a smell test.

An approach you might be well advised to try.

And it does not go unnoticed that your last two words are "it seems". "It seems" just ain't good enough.

Well if you deny that most of the honor killing violence you hear about is not usually related to ONE particular religion, then I am going to call you "ostrich boy."

Dear ChrisL
With the honor killings, how many of these come out of Pakistani families?
I asked a Muslim friend of mine, and he said it is tied to Pakistani culture.

I would compare "honor killings" to equally tragic reports from India
of women burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands

Yes, it's illegal to do this.
But "some people" are still carrying out old traditions, because of their social conditioning.

For these illegal acts coming out of India, is it fair to blame this on "Hinduism"?
It may be part of the old CULTURE,
but of course it isn't part of the law or religious beliefs that are AGAINST such acts.

If you are looking for an easy answer to blame it on,
I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

The conditioning goes deeper.

Thank you Emily. I've already pointed this out, linked to scholars, linked to historical evidence, and linked to case histories all indicating the same thing. But self-delusion is apparently powerful stuff.

I think it's important to get this right so that the disease, not the symptom, gets addressed. Otherwise, left to the emotion-based mythology, all we do is play wack-a-mole, and that's a game that has no end.

For starters, posts 361 and 362.

do not hurt your head banging it on the POGO WALL

 

[ChrisL]

Emily-----you are playing the "ALL" game that is a characteristic of propagandaists-----are you a propagandaists? I have never met a single person in my life who blamed ALL CHRISTIANS for the slavery that was practiced in the pre civil war USA------you are ALL GAME is a libel. Libels are for lynch gangs

I presume you mean "labels" on the end there...

What you're trying to describe here is a blanket generalization fallacy -- yet that's exactly what your position here is based on, ascribing this, that and the other thing to "Islam" in spite of evidence presented to the contrary ---- stoning in the OT.... FGM in the BCE era and performed by American and European doctors.... HBV in India and around the world -- that disprove your blanket statements. All you've given us in lieu of links is a grand Composition Fallacy. And that's intentional ignorance.

Oh blah, blah, blah. The bottom line is that this one religion is responsible for most of the violence that is happening in the world today. There are multiple terror attacks, honor killings, etc. every day in the name of this one religion. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. You want to keep denying the truth, that is your prerogative, but I'm not going to join you.

 

[irosie91]

Emily-----you are playing the "ALL" game that is a characteristic of propagandaists-----are you a propagandaists? I have never met a single person in my life who blamed ALL CHRISTIANS for the slavery that was practiced in the pre civil war USA------you are ALL GAME is a libel. Libels are for lynch gangs

I presume you mean "labels" on the end there...

What you're trying to describe here is a blanket generalization fallacy -- yet that's exactly what your position here is based on, ascribing this, that and the other thing to "Islam" in spite of evidence presented to the contrary ---- stoning in the OT.... FGM in the BCE era and performed by American and European doctors.... HBV in India and around the world -- that disprove your blanket statements. All you've given us in lieu of links is a grand Composition Fallacy. And that's intentional ignorance.

Oh blah, blah, blah. The bottom line is that this one religion is responsible for most of the violence that is happening in the world today. There are multiple terror attacks, honor killings, etc. every day in the name of this one religion. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. You want to keep denying the truth, that is your prerogative, but I'm not going to join you.

fpr the record----that which has very rarely been done in the practice of European and American medicine is not FGM----it is clitorectomy----more accurately reduction of the clitoris in cases of incessant masturbation which some Christian
sects saw as a sin and reduction of abnormally enlarged clitoris ---a RARE congenital anomaly POGO is desperate

 

[ChrisL]

Emily-----you are playing the "ALL" game that is a characteristic of propagandaists-----are you a propagandaists? I have never met a single person in my life who blamed ALL CHRISTIANS for the slavery that was practiced in the pre civil war USA------you are ALL GAME is a libel. Libels are for lynch gangs

I presume you mean "labels" on the end there...

What you're trying to describe here is a blanket generalization fallacy -- yet that's exactly what your position here is based on, ascribing this, that and the other thing to "Islam" in spite of evidence presented to the contrary ---- stoning in the OT.... FGM in the BCE era and performed by American and European doctors.... HBV in India and around the world -- that disprove your blanket statements. All you've given us in lieu of links is a grand Composition Fallacy. And that's intentional ignorance.

Oh blah, blah, blah. The bottom line is that this one religion is responsible for most of the violence that is happening in the world today. There are multiple terror attacks, honor killings, etc. every day in the name of this one religion. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. You want to keep denying the truth, that is your prerogative, but I'm not going to join you.

fpr the record----that which has very rarely been done in the practice of European and American medicine is not FGM----it is clitorectomy----more accurately reduction of the clitoris in cases of incessant masturbation which some Christian
sects saw as a sin and reduction of abnormally enlarged clitoris ---a RARE congenital anomaly POGO is desperate

Obviously being "politically correct" is more important than truth for a lot of people. It makes me want to hurl, honestly.

 

[Pogo]

Emily-----you are playing the "ALL" game that is a characteristic of propagandaists-----are you a propagandaists? I have never met a single person in my life who blamed ALL CHRISTIANS for the slavery that was practiced in the pre civil war USA------you are ALL GAME is a libel. Libels are for lynch gangs

I presume you mean "labels" on the end there...

What you're trying to describe here is a blanket generalization fallacy -- yet that's exactly what your position here is based on, ascribing this, that and the other thing to "Islam" in spite of evidence presented to the contrary ---- stoning in the OT.... FGM in the BCE era and performed by American and European doctors.... HBV in India and around the world -- that disprove your blanket statements. All you've given us in lieu of links is a grand Composition Fallacy. And that's intentional ignorance.

Oh blah, blah, blah. The bottom line is that this one religion is responsible for most of the violence that is happening in the world today. There are multiple terror attacks, honor killings, etc. every day in the name of this one religion. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. You want to keep denying the truth, that is your prerogative, but I'm not going to join you.

Yeah yeah, and "Jews control the media" and "Irish are drunks" and "black people are lazy". Heard it all before. Do you learn nothing from history??

Try a simple exercise here. Let's say you're a Muslim, and a devout one.

(it's worth noting here, "Muslim" doesn't automatically mean "devout" any more than "Christian" or "Jewish" etc do....).

--- but let's say you are devout, and poor, and lean heavily on your local tribal religious leader for guidance. Let's say that religious leader also believes, as you seem to here, that HBV, for example, is an "Islamic" thing and is sanctioned and even prescribed in Islam and leads you to believe that....

(I understand we've already demonstrated the above is bullshit but for the example let's say both you and he believe that...)

-- Now onto the scene come people like us in the real world, wishing to get the barbaric practice stopped....

Are we -- the anti-HBV movement -- going to have more success convincing you by:

(a) telling you your religion is all fucked up and you have to dump everything in your lifestyle and start over? or
(b) explaining -- and demonstrating as I have here -- that HBV is in fact NOT a part of your religion and never was?​

Which one's more likely to liberate you?

-- You see the hole you dig yourself into, running on myths?

 

[ChrisL]

Emily-----you are playing the "ALL" game that is a characteristic of propagandaists-----are you a propagandaists? I have never met a single person in my life who blamed ALL CHRISTIANS for the slavery that was practiced in the pre civil war USA------you are ALL GAME is a libel. Libels are for lynch gangs

I presume you mean "labels" on the end there...

What you're trying to describe here is a blanket generalization fallacy -- yet that's exactly what your position here is based on, ascribing this, that and the other thing to "Islam" in spite of evidence presented to the contrary ---- stoning in the OT.... FGM in the BCE era and performed by American and European doctors.... HBV in India and around the world -- that disprove your blanket statements. All you've given us in lieu of links is a grand Composition Fallacy. And that's intentional ignorance.

Oh blah, blah, blah. The bottom line is that this one religion is responsible for most of the violence that is happening in the world today. There are multiple terror attacks, honor killings, etc. every day in the name of this one religion. You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. You want to keep denying the truth, that is your prerogative, but I'm not going to join you.

Yeah yeah, and "Jews control the media" and "Irish are drunks" and "black people are lazy". Heard it all before. Do you learn nothing from history??

Try a simple exercise here. Let's say you're a Muslim, and a devout one.

(it's worth noting here, "Muslim" doesn't automatically mean "devout" any more than "Christian" or "Jewish" etc do....).

--- but let's say you are devout, and poor, and lean heavily on your local tribal religious leader for guidance. Let's say that religious leader also believes, as you seem to here, that HBV, for example, is an "Islamic" thing and is sanctioned and even prescribed in Islam and leads you to believe that....

(I understand we've already demonstrated the above is bullshit but for the example let's say both you and he believe that...)

-- Now onto the scene come people like us in the real world, wishing to get the barbaric practice stopped....

Are we -- the anti-HBV movement -- going to have more success convincing you by:

(a) telling you your religion is all fucked up and you have to dump everything in your lifestyle and start over? or
(b) explaining -- and demonstrating as I have here -- that HBV is in fact NOT a part of your religion and never was?​

Which one's more likely to liberate you?

-- You see the hole you dig yourself into, running on myths?

No, but I do see you keep digging yourself in deeper. It's not a myth that Islam is the religion responsible for most violence on our planet today. That is just a fact that you need to learn how to deal with.