It’s Time to Formally Declare America A Christian Nation.

[WinterBorn]

So tell me again why allowing gay marriage is any more a 'secular' law than banning gay marriage?

The gov't bestows special privileges on married couples. It also guarantees equal protection under the law.

There is no reason not to recognize same sex marriage.

 

[Mashmont]

The gov't bestows special privileges on married couples. It also guarantees equal protection under the law.

There is no reason not to recognize same sex marriage.

Sure there is. There is no biological basis for calling it actual marriage. Coitus is impossible. Also, gay "sex" is the chief spreader of HIV in the US. There are plenty of non-religious reasons for disallowing gay "marriage"

 

[WinterBorn]

Sure there is. There is no biological basis for calling it actual marriage. Coitus is impossible. Also, gay sex is the chief spreader of HIV in the US. There are plenty of non-religious reasons for disallowing gay "marriage"

Lesbians, as a group, had (and have) the lowest rate of HIV transmission. Lower than straight men or straight women.

Marriage does not require coitus. Nor does it require bearing of children.

 

[Mashmont]

Lesbians, as a group, had (and have) the lowest rate of HIV transmission. Lower than straight men or straight women.

Marriage does not require coitus. Nor does it require bearing of children.

If marriage does not require coitus, then why can't any two or more people or objects "marry"? Tell me the biological basis for marriage then. Or are you saying the basis is purely legal and manmade? In which case, checkmate.

 

[WinterBorn]

If marriage does not require coitus, then why can't any two or more people or objects "marry"? Tell me the biological basis for marriage then. Or are you saying the basis is purely legal and manmade? In which case, checkmate.

Two senior citizens can marry, when she is well past child bearing years.
Two people in wheelchairs can marry, despite the fact that they cannot have coitus.

Sadly it wasn't until 1975 that marital rape was made illegal in one state.
And it wasn't until 1993 that marital rape was illegal in all 50 states.

From the government's point of view, marriage is a legal commitment between two consenting adults.

 

[Meriweather]

From the government's point of view, marriage is a legal commitment between two consenting adults.

I am another who wonders why government is involved in marriage to begin with. Separation between Church and State. No government needed. (I also lean toward Libertarianism.)

 

[Mashmont]

Two senior citizens can marry, when she is well past child bearing years.
Two people in wheelchairs can marry, despite the fact that they cannot have coitus.

Sadly it wasn't until 1975 that marital rape was made illegal in one state.
And it wasn't until 1993 that marital rape was illegal in all 50 states.

From the government's point of view, marriage is a legal commitment between two consenting adults.

A lot of irrelevant dancing around, but not an answer to the question. Why does gay marriage have to be the choice of a so-called secular government? Why wouldn't a reversal of Obergefell vs Hodges also be permissible under a secular government, restoring the situation pre-2015?

 

[Meriweather]

Why does gay marriage have to be the choice of a so-called secular government?

No need for government to push any kind of marriage. It's not government business.

 

[WinterBorn]

A lot of irrelevant dancing around, but not an answer to the question. Why does gay marriage have to be the choice of a so-called secular government? Why wouldn't a reversal of Obergefell vs Hodges also be permissible under a secular government, restoring the situation pre-2015?

Because, as the SCOTUS ruled, states banning same sex marriage is a violation of the 14th amendment Equal Protection Clause and Due Process Clause.

 

[Mashmont]

No need for government to push any kind of marriage. It's not government business.

Hmm. I have to think about that. Tell me the reasons you think that.

 

[Bezukhov]

The federal government is pushing the atheist agenda. It doesn't matter what it actually says it does. It's what it does.

And 1st century Christians had to put up with a government pushing a Pagan agenda. How were those Christians instructed to deal with that?

"Let everyone submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which derives from God, and whatever authorities exist have been instituted by God. Consequently, anyone who resists authority is rebelling against what God has appointed, and those who so resist will bring judgment upon themselves.

Rulers are a source of fear not to those who do good but rather to those who do evil. Do you wish to be free of fear from someone in authority? Then continue to do what is right and you will receive his approval. For he is acting as God’s representative for your welfare. But if you do what is evil, then be afraid for he does not wear a sword for nothing. People in authority are God’s servants to mete out punishment to wrongdoers." ( Romans 13: 1-4)

 

[Mashmont]

Because, as the SCOTUS ruled, states banning same sex marriage is a violation of the 14th amendment Equal Protection Clause and Due Process Clause.

Haven't you heard the news? That shaky right to privacy nonsense is going out the window

 

[Meriweather]

Hmm. I have to think about that. Tell me the reasons you think that.

The purpose of the Federal government is to protect the nation's borders and to facilitate trade and transportation within the nation. Currently, our Federal government is failing at protecting the nation's borders and it is failing at facilitating trade and transportation within the nation.

I think one of the reasons people turn to religion is the discipline and how discipline in one's life makes for a better life and better individuals. Ideals are set forth and each individual is encouraged to reach that ideal.

My great-grandfather lived with my grandparents and their baby daughter, my eldest aunt. Great-grandpa carried the baby everywhere, brought everything that little girl wanted to her. All she had to do was point. Was that in the best interest of the baby?

Most would agree that the baby needed to learn to be more independent and self-sufficient and that great-grandpa was overstepping his bounds. Our current government is like my great-grandpa, overstepping bounds, retarding the growth and development of its citizens. Citizens point and the government runs and fetches, giving no thought to growth and development. There is overreach. Any kind of marriage is overreach because it has nothing to do with protecting the nations borders or managing trade and transportation.

If there is marriage within a religious community, and gay people want marriage, nothing should stop them from "fetching" for themselves. Gather together as a community, just as people of faith do, and agree that they will have marriage and what will be expected from gay unions. Why do you need "great-grandpa" to arrange it? Why aren't you capable of doing for yourself?

Education was always meant to be a local endeavor, yet the feds now have their fingers crawling all over it. The people who cannot do the job of managing the borders or facilitating transportation and trade, now want something else they are incapable of doing.

 

[surada]

Gay sex and any illicit sex are immoral because they lead to objectively bad consequences. That's just the facts.

Why don't you live your best life and lead by example?

 

[surada]

Haven't you heard the news? That shaky right to privacy nonsense is going out the window

What? No right to privacy. Shall we also monitor your bedroom?

 

[WinterBorn]

Haven't you heard the news? That shaky right to privacy nonsense is going out the window

No, I haven't heard that. But that is also not relevant, since the 2 clauses used are not about privacy.

So it looks like you have another amendment to remove before your Utopia can be achieved.

 

[Mashmont]

The purpose of the Federal government is to protect the nation's borders and to facilitate trade and transportation within the nation. Currently, our Federal government is failing at protecting the nation's borders and it is failing at facilitating trade and transportation within the nation.

I think one of the reasons people turn to religion is the discipline and how discipline in one's life makes for a better life and better individuals. Ideals are set forth and each individual is encouraged to reach that ideal.

My great-grandfather lived with my grandparents and their baby daughter, my eldest aunt. Great-grandpa carried the baby everywhere, brought everything that little girl wanted to her. All she had to do was point. Was that in the best interest of the baby?

Most would agree that the baby needed to learn to be more independent and self-sufficient and that great-grandpa was overstepping his bounds. Our current government is like my great-grandpa, overstepping bounds, retarding the growth and development of its citizens. Citizens point and the government runs and fetches, giving no thought to growth and development. There is overreach. Any kind of marriage is overreach because it has nothing to do with protecting the nations borders or managing trade and transportation.

If there is marriage within a religious community, and gay people want marriage, nothing should stop them from "fetching" for themselves. Gather together as a community, just as people of faith do, and agree that they will have marriage and what will be expected from gay unions. Why do you need "great-grandpa" to arrange it? Why aren't you capable of doing for yourself?

Education was always meant to be a local endeavor, yet the feds now have their fingers crawling all over it. The people who cannot do the job of managing the borders or facilitating transportation and trade, now want something else they are incapable of doing.

Not sure if I agree. Isn't it part of government's few jobs supposed to be keeping the social order? Having records in the court house, signing of recorded legal contracts, etc?
Would many people just dispense with marriage altogether if it went to the churches? Or are you saying it should be handled by other entities in addition to churches?
I just worry there would be a lot of gray area and blurring if there wasn't an official register documenting marriages. People could say they are married, but not be, and there would be no central way to verify it. As a landlord, it matters to me if people are married, for example. I need to be able to find out.

 

[AsherN]

Why should gay marriage be allowed under a secular government? Who says? You?

Because a secular government does not discriminate on the basis of religion. Marriage as dictated by the state is a contract that confers rights and privileges to the spouses. Your church does not want to perform a religious ceremony, it is free to not do so. but denying the same rights to 2 committed adults is discrimination in the civil sphere. That's what you religious nuts fail to see. A marriage is 2 completely separate ceremony, one civil and one religious. You can have one without the other.

 

[Meriweather]

Not sure if I agree. Isn't it part of government's few jobs supposed to be keeping the social order? Having records in the court house, signing of recorded legal contracts, etc?

Isn't that a part of trade? Many legal contracts pertain to local matters, not federal matters. The same is true of social order. Most of that can be done at the local level.

 

[Mashmont]

Isn't that a part of trade? Many legal contracts pertain to local matters, not federal matters. The same is true of social order. Most of that can be done at the local level.

So you're saying only the local but not the federal government should be involved in marriage. Is that correct?