Law Suit By Sandy Hook Parents Against Remington Arms Dismissed

[N]ever in the history of the world has a gun made someone violent.

True. Cars don't make people kill other people, but we have traffic lights and stop signs. Nuclear weapons don't make people kill people, but we have policies against their proliferation, especially for terrorist nations. Guns don't make prisoners in SuperMax prisons violent, but we have rules against possession in this instance.

Fucking control freaks like yourself know the real reason for gun-control it's for control - is has nothing to do with preventing any type of violent crime.

By pathologizing the opposition, you're clogging the debate with irrelevant speculative garbage that cannot be proven or disproven.

The sentence "2 + 2 = 4" is true even if the person uttering it is a control freak. The veracity of a sentence or proposed regulation should be considered apart from the unknown psychological state of the speaker. I happen to believe that most opposition to gun regulation is driven by a deep paranoia, but this fact has no bearing on the evidence/arguments I would consider when determining whether to limit the rights of prisoners or suspected terrorists.

Stop clogging the debate with vague generalizations and make some intelligible arguments for why a particular proposal would or would not work.
Millions of people just like me own firearms and have never committed a violent act against another person, very few violent crimes are committed by Ar15.
Enforce current laws and leave it at that, more gun control laws are frivolous and wrongheaded.

I agree with you to a bigger extent than you realize, but it doesn't follow from your point that we can't seriously consider and intelligently discuss (say) limiting the gun rights of American citizens on the terrorist watch list.

But, yes, I too am afraid of giving government too much power.

When the Bush administration used the threat of terror to create a whole new infrastructure of federal surveillance over American citizens (Patriot Act/Homeland Security), I didn't think these well-intentioned things were going to make us safer. My worry was that we were giving incompetent bureaucrats too much power over our rights to privacy. I saw whole new opportunities for Federal abuse, like when the Bush administration used provisions in the Patriot Act to bring down political enemies like Eliot Spitzer, who merely wrote an unfavorable op-ed about Bush's complicity in the housing meltdown. This is exactly what happened in the old Soviet Union where the government used national security laws to protect itself from the people.

Which is to say, I think you are right to worry about unintended consequences and incrementalism. However, none of these problems make me lose faith in the ability of free Democratic citizens to discuss these issues and solve problems if some kind of consensus can be found. If we thought that all government action and legislation was hopeless, Hitler would never have been stopped and we would have never put a man on the moon - and great Republican Presidents like Eisenhower would never have been able to get the Interstate built so that suppliers/consumers could see an exponential increase in profits/convenience.

Simply throwing up your hands and saying that everything is impossible and everyone is corrupt leaves the hard work to other people.
 
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They don't ...and I will go there. The mass shooters in this country...either passed background checks or stole their guns....the shooters who murdered 9,616 people in 2015......90% of them could not legally buy, own or carry a gun.....but still got them...and they were not sold to them buy gun makers.......


NO ONE is banning gun ownership....that's a moronic straw man used by gun nuts....like you.......

HOWEVER, the manufacturing of military style guns and selling them to the public supposedly....well, because gun nuts love bigger and more powerful guns to shoot Bambi........THAT should be banned because these weapons ONLY true purpose is to kill and kill as many people in the shortest number of minutes......
You have no idea of the difference between a military grade weapons and a sporting rifle which the Ar15 is, just a sporting rifle. God fucking educate yourself you fucking moron. LOL

Yes . If you consider killing people a sport !
2016 Real Time Death Statistics in America

The country has much bigger fish to fry, firearm violence is basically a non-issue compared to other issues.
Criminal control not gun control, most all firearms used in violent crimes are stolen and are done by repeat offenders.... fact
 
[N]ever in the history of the world has a gun made someone violent.

True. Cars don't make people kill other people, but we have traffic lights and stop signs. Nuclear weapons don't make people kill people, but we have policies against their proliferation, especially for terrorist nations. Guns don't make prisoners in SuperMax prisons violent, but we have rules against possession in this instance.

Fucking control freaks like yourself know the real reason for gun-control it's for control - is has nothing to do with preventing any type of violent crime.

By pathologizing the opposition, you're clogging the debate with irrelevant speculative garbage that cannot be proven or disproven.

The sentence "2 + 2 = 4" is true even if the person uttering it is a control freak. The veracity of a sentence or proposed regulation should be considered apart from the unknown psychological state of the speaker. I happen to believe that most opposition to gun regulation is driven by a deep paranoia, but this fact has no bearing on the evidence/arguments I would consider when determining whether to limit the rights of prisoners or suspected terrorists.

Stop clogging the debate with vague generalizations and make some intelligible arguments for why a particular proposal would or would not work.
Millions of people just like me own firearms and have never committed a violent act against another person, very few violent crimes are committed by Ar15.
Enforce current laws and leave it at that, more gun control laws are frivolous and wrongheaded.

I agree with you to a bigger extent than you realize, but it doesn't follow from your point that we can't seriously consider and intelligently discuss (say) limiting the gun rights of American citizens on the terrorist watch list.

But, yes, I too am afraid of giving government too much power.

When the Bush administration used the threat of terror to create a whole new infrastructure of federal surveillance over American citizens (Patriot Act/Homeland Security), I didn't think these well-intentioned things were going to make us safer. I thought we were giving incompetent bureaucrats too much power over our rights to privacy. I saw whole new opportunities for Federal abuse, like when the Bush administration used provisions in the Patriot Act to bring down political enemies like Eliot Spitzer, who merely wrote an unfavorable op-ed about Bush's complicity in the housing meltdown.

Which is to say, I think you are right to worry about unintended consequences and incrementalism. However, none of these problems makes me lose faith in the ability of free Democratic citizens to discuss these issues and solve problems. If we thought that all government action and legislation was hopeless, Hitler would never have been stopped and we would have never put a man on the moon - and great Republican Presidents like Eisenhower would never have been able to get the Interstate built so that suppliers/consumers could see an exponential increase in profits/convenience.

Simply throwing up your hands and saying that everything is impossible and everyone is corrupt leaves the hard work to other people.
The problem now is that the federal government pretty much disregards the 10th amendment, and there is one party rule in Washington the progressive party. Everyday that goes by I become more and more libertarian. Mainly because progressives thinking throwing money and laws at something fixes it, it could not be farther from the truth - especially when it's someone else's money.
 
No, the soviet strategy was to take guns away and murder citizens that disagreed.

These are not mutually exclusive. They did both, that is, they used national security laws to protect themselves from their own people, and they confiscated guns/murdered dissidents.
 
They don't ...and I will go there. The mass shooters in this country...either passed background checks or stole their guns....the shooters who murdered 9,616 people in 2015......90% of them could not legally buy, own or carry a gun.....but still got them...and they were not sold to them buy gun makers.......


NO ONE is banning gun ownership....that's a moronic straw man used by gun nuts....like you.......

HOWEVER, the manufacturing of military style guns and selling them to the public supposedly....well, because gun nuts love bigger and more powerful guns to shoot Bambi........THAT should be banned because these weapons ONLY true purpose is to kill and kill as many people in the shortest number of minutes......
You have no idea of the difference between a military grade weapons and a sporting rifle which the Ar15 is, just a sporting rifle. God fucking educate yourself you fucking moron. LOL

Yes . If you consider killing people a sport !
2016 Real Time Death Statistics in America

The country has much bigger fish to fry, firearm violence is basically a non-issue compared to other issues.
Criminal control not gun control, most all firearms used in violent crimes are stolen and are done by repeat offenders.... fact

They are not stolen. They are sold on the black market and then later our claim to be stolen. Why is it that the NRA's against a gun registration?
 
They don't ...and I will go there. The mass shooters in this country...either passed background checks or stole their guns....the shooters who murdered 9,616 people in 2015......90% of them could not legally buy, own or carry a gun.....but still got them...and they were not sold to them buy gun makers.......


NO ONE is banning gun ownership....that's a moronic straw man used by gun nuts....like you.......

HOWEVER, the manufacturing of military style guns and selling them to the public supposedly....well, because gun nuts love bigger and more powerful guns to shoot Bambi........THAT should be banned because these weapons ONLY true purpose is to kill and kill as many people in the shortest number of minutes......
You have no idea of the difference between a military grade weapons and a sporting rifle which the Ar15 is, just a sporting rifle. God fucking educate yourself you fucking moron. LOL

Yes . If you consider killing people a sport !
2016 Real Time Death Statistics in America

The country has much bigger fish to fry, firearm violence is basically a non-issue compared to other issues.
Criminal control not gun control, most all firearms used in violent crimes are stolen and are done by repeat offenders.... fact

They are not stolen. They are sold on the black market and then later our claim to be stolen. Why is it that the NRA's against a gun registration?
Wrong, The reason why the NRA and any other self respecting American is against gun registration is because the federal government can never be trusted with this type of information. Career politicians own the federal government and puppet masters own career politicians. Any attempt to register firearms in a national registry is it evil act and should be thought of so...
 
NO ONE is banning gun ownership....that's a moronic straw man used by gun nuts....like you.......

HOWEVER, the manufacturing of military style guns and selling them to the public supposedly....well, because gun nuts love bigger and more powerful guns to shoot Bambi........THAT should be banned because these weapons ONLY true purpose is to kill and kill as many people in the shortest number of minutes......
You have no idea of the difference between a military grade weapons and a sporting rifle which the Ar15 is, just a sporting rifle. God fucking educate yourself you fucking moron. LOL

Yes . If you consider killing people a sport !
2016 Real Time Death Statistics in America

The country has much bigger fish to fry, firearm violence is basically a non-issue compared to other issues.
Criminal control not gun control, most all firearms used in violent crimes are stolen and are done by repeat offenders.... fact

They are not stolen. They are sold on the black market and then later our claim to be stolen. Why is it that the NRA's against a gun registration?
Wrong, The reason why the NRA and any other self respecting American is against gun registration is because the federal government can never be trusted with this type of information. Career politicians own the federal government and puppet masters own career politicians. Any attempt to register firearms in a national registry is it evil act and should be thought of so...

That's tinfoil hat bullshit. Gun owners Ihave to be licensed anyways so the government already knows who the gun owners are.
 
Mainly because progressives thinking throwing money and laws at something fixes it, it could not be farther from the truth - especially when it's someone else's money.

I had the same problem with Bush's vision for remaking the Middle East into a USA-friendly, market based democracy (and I condemn the Democrats who went along with him).

We were told for years that government was/is too incompetent to run a laundromat - yet, somehow, we give it the money and power to remake the greater Middle East in our image? The Right says Government can't do big things. Ok fine, but... nation building in Iraq is the biggest thing government has been asked to do in my lifetime by a staggering margin.

What about the law of unintended consequences? What if you destabilize the region for generations (which creates a vacuum for the rise of radicalism) ... and, as a result, you are forced to play endless whack-a-mole whereby you constantly declare Mission Accomplished until the next wave of radicalism comes along to topple the weak states that you left behind? Or what if you are stuck having to do a permanent military occupation because you can't leave the region because it can't be stabilized into a USA-friendly region. And what if the permanent occupation bankrupts future generations and causes exactly the kind of terrorist blowback you sought to prevent in the first place? And what if you promised us it would be a quick war, but it devolved into an endless nightmare that cost well beyond your projections. (Do you see what I mean? Sometimes Big Government can't save the world? Sometimes it can only make things worse.)

My problem is that the Libertarian in me always depended on the real Libertarians inside Reagan's movement to keep us from making these massive mistakes with Big Government.

However, the very party which is supposed to protect us from Big Government is precisely the party who gives government the power to do the biggest things (like nation building). Big Government can't even run the 50 states effectively, but you think it can run the middle east without unintended consequences? What?

So I am with you on some levels, I just wish the anti-government crowd would stop electing people who give government more money and power.
 
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You have no idea of the difference between a military grade weapons and a sporting rifle which the Ar15 is, just a sporting rifle. God fucking educate yourself you fucking moron. LOL

Yes . If you consider killing people a sport !
2016 Real Time Death Statistics in America

The country has much bigger fish to fry, firearm violence is basically a non-issue compared to other issues.
Criminal control not gun control, most all firearms used in violent crimes are stolen and are done by repeat offenders.... fact

They are not stolen. They are sold on the black market and then later our claim to be stolen. Why is it that the NRA's against a gun registration?
Wrong, The reason why the NRA and any other self respecting American is against gun registration is because the federal government can never be trusted with this type of information. Career politicians own the federal government and puppet masters own career politicians. Any attempt to register firearms in a national registry is it evil act and should be thought of so...

That's tinfoil hat bullshit. Gun owners Ihave to be licensed anyways so the government already knows who the gun owners are.
No they don't, that's what I do I sell guns and ammo and there is no paperwork required to be kept. As it should be, it's none of the federal government business on how many, what type of firearms person has - and for that matter should be no one else's business either
 
Suing Remington because someone shot somebody using a Remington gun, is no different from suing Ford because someone ran over somebody using one of their cars.

Well, there is one difference. The right to own and carry one of Remington's guns is constitutionally protected, no govt can make a law against it. The right to own and drive a Ford is not.
What if the Ford was wielded as a weapon of purpose .... taken aim and pulled accelerator.

So?
... when it comes to large sums of money the little guy is going to fucked every time.

When the little guy brings a frivolous lawsuit, he or she deserves to get fucked.
 
Mainly because progressives thinking throwing money and laws at something fixes it, it could not be farther from the truth - especially when it's someone else's money.

I had the same problem with Bush's vision for remaking the Middle East into a USA-friendly, market based democracy (and I condemn the Democrats who went along with him).

We were told for years that government was/is too incompetent to run a laundromat - yet, somehow, we give it the money and power to remake the greater Middle East in our image? The Right says Government can't do big things. Ok fine, but... nation building in Iraq is the biggest thing government has been asked to do in my lifetime by a staggering margin.

What about the law of unintended consequences? What if you destabilize the region for generations (which creates a vacuum for the rise of radicalism) ... and, as a result, you are forced to play endless whack-a-mole whereby you constantly declare Mission Accomplished until the next wave of radicalism comes along to topple the weak states that you left behind? Or what if you are stuck having to do a permanent military occupation because you can't leave the region because it can't be stabilized into a USA-friendly region . . . which occupation will bankrupt future generations and cause exactly the kind of terrorist blowback you sought to prevent?

My problem is that the Libertarian in me always depended on the official Libertarians inside Reagan's movement to keep us from making these massive mistakes with Big Government.

However, the very party which is supposed to protect us from Big Government is precisely the party that gives government the power to do the biggest things.

So I am with you on some levels.
The fact of the matter is each president has one upped the last one On spending foolishly... and more money thrown at laws will solve nothing other than making things much, much worse.
 
Yeah, a doctor that prescribes a patient 200 oxycotin a month can't be held responsible for that patient over-dosing, becoming addicted, or turning to heroin. The government can't make rules warning doctors of serious legal consequences of such actions, and limiting the amount of pain killers they prescribe. The doctor is just making a nice profit for himself and the drug company.

Pharmaceutical companies can't be held liable for deadly misuse of their products. Pills are just inanimate objects.


Yeahhh.
Sure the doctor can just like gun manufacturers and gun dealers are held liable should they willingly and knowingly sell weapons to those that are not allowed to purchase them.

nice try to conflate the issue though.
 
Just heard on the news, this illegal law suit has been dismissed. Parents say they will appeal, such a waste of money, their gonna lose. Remington made a legal product and is not responsible for damages. Firearms manufactures are protected by law against these unjust suits.

I also think it was correct to dismiss this case.

As you know, they did not indicate negligence in the product itself, but the sale to untrained civilians. They theory being that Remington's gun sale in this instance would have been legal if the user had some training certificate, like a car license (where the user goes through a training process/exam before using a potentially deadly vehicle).

However, the deaths did not result from a lack of training, so the suit itself didn't make sense. I guess you could argue that requiring some kind of advanced training/certificate would make it harder for lazy or incompetent people to own these weapons, which itself might limit these gun slaughters, but we will never put an end to gun violence or vehicular death. Best you can do is find legislative ways to limit the death while still vigorously defending the rights of legal/responsible gun owners. This is why Stop Signs as not seen as unfair government intrusions on freedom. The notion that there can't be any regulations surrounding the operation and use of potentially deadly instruments is crazy, but the gun lobby controls one of our two party's, so everyone knows that introducing even mild legislation is impossible, and will be conflated with the death of the 2nd Amendment.


How exactly are there no gun regulations......? You guys throw that line out there and just think that is all you have to say.......try explaining what you mean when you say

"The notion that there can't be any regulations....." considering all of the regulations around owning and using guns......

Fair.

Let me try to say it better.

There are regulations, but whenever regulations are proposed, those regulations are seen as a slippery slope to the death of the 2nd Amendment.

And whenever a politician proposes legislation, that politician is accused of having a secret agenda to destroy the 2nd Amendment.

This makes it hard to both maintain and improve upon the metaphorical equivalent of Stop Signs, Traffic Lights, Speed Limits, Licenses and the entire infrastructure of laws & regulations that help ensure safe driving while not limiting the rights of legal, responsible car owners. (Again, though, I agree that the lawsuit was frivolous. My mother's family is from a rural part of the US and are big hunters. They are extremely responsible gun owners. I fully support their right to gun ownership, but I wish we could discuss gun regulations without such a toxic backdrop of miscommunication and slippery slope'ism)
You didn't say it any better here as it has the same fatal flaw that your last statement included. The problem we have here has nothing to do with gun control at all and more laws and regulations will do nothing to change homicide rates in this nation. You keep mentioning stop signs as a metaphor but I think the relevant point here is that we are already saturated with gun control laws. The manner in which guns are manufactured, their capabilities and how they are sold is not simply regulated but heavily regulated. Furthering that regulation in almost any sense is utterly pointless. There are some minor improvements to be made in the process but that is about it and that is the core problem with gun control advocates. They are advocating limiting a right further without and actual gains.

The problems we have with violence in our country are not related to guns - they are related to social and cultural realities that we have to face here.

I had the same problem with Bush's vision for remaking the Middle East into a USA-friendly, market based democracy (and I condemn the Democrats who went along with him).

We were told for years that government was/is too incompetent to run a laundromat - yet, somehow, we give it the money and power to remake the greater Middle East in our image? The Right says Government can't do big things. Ok fine, but... nation building in Iraq is the biggest thing government has been asked to do in my lifetime by a staggering margin.

What about the law of unintended consequences? What if you destabilize the region for generations (which creates a vacuum for the rise of radicalism) ... and, as a result, you are forced to play endless whack-a-mole whereby you constantly declare Mission Accomplished until the next wave of radicalism comes along to topple the weak states that you left behind? Or what if you are stuck having to do a permanent military occupation because you can't leave the region because it can't be stabilized into a USA-friendly region. And what if the permanent occupation bankrupts future generations and causes exactly the kind of terrorist blowback you sought to prevent in the first place? And what if you promised us it would be a quick war, but it devolved into an endless nightmare that cost well beyond your projections. (Do you see what I mean? Sometimes Big Government can't save the world? Sometimes it can only make things worse.)

My problem is that the Libertarian in me always depended on the real Libertarians inside Reagan's movement to keep us from making these massive mistakes with Big Government.

However, the very party which is supposed to protect us from Big Government is precisely the party who gives government the power to do the biggest things (like nation building). Big Government can't even run the 50 states effectively, but you think it can run the middle east without unintended consequences? What?

So I am with you on some levels, I just wish the anti-government crowd would stop electing people who give government more money and power.

Cute that you still think the right is the anti-government crowd. That is a nice tag line the republicans like to use but is a total fabrication. Republicans are just as prone to increasing government than the democrats are - jsut different parts of the government.
 
Yes . If you consider killing people a sport !
2016 Real Time Death Statistics in America

The country has much bigger fish to fry, firearm violence is basically a non-issue compared to other issues.
Criminal control not gun control, most all firearms used in violent crimes are stolen and are done by repeat offenders.... fact

They are not stolen. They are sold on the black market and then later our claim to be stolen. Why is it that the NRA's against a gun registration?
Wrong, The reason why the NRA and any other self respecting American is against gun registration is because the federal government can never be trusted with this type of information. Career politicians own the federal government and puppet masters own career politicians. Any attempt to register firearms in a national registry is it evil act and should be thought of so...

That's tinfoil hat bullshit. Gun owners Ihave to be licensed anyways so the government already knows who the gun owners are.
No they don't, that's what I do I sell guns and ammo and there is no paperwork required to be kept. As it should be, it's none of the federal government business on how many, what type of firearms person has - and for that matter should be no one else's business either

Not our business!? How Many people are killed / injured by "illegal" guns every year?
 
Is a law forbidding criminals in prison cells from owning guns a violation of (or threat to) the 2nd Amendment? Since the Constitution doesn't expressly state that criminals in SuperMax prisons can't own guns, is forbidding their gun possession a Constitutional Violation, or does the Constitution leave room for regulated enforcement, to be scrupulously adjudicated with full course to the Supreme Court?

The above question aims to ferret out Constitutionally illiterate people (who are being strategically created and manipulated on the right). These are the people who think that because something isn't expressly, literally, word-for-word stated in the Constitution, than it is not legally permitted. This ignores the parts of the Constitution which contain a structure for adjudicating disputes and requiring interpretations by the judiciary. It's why we have an Amendment process or other structures of both discretion and redress, so we are not bound by what the Framer's couldn't have seen and did not address, like the Internet or the specific rights of prisoners in SuperMax prisons.


Due process of law.......the 2nd is pretty clear....shall not be infringed.....
 
2016 Real Time Death Statistics in America

The country has much bigger fish to fry, firearm violence is basically a non-issue compared to other issues.
Criminal control not gun control, most all firearms used in violent crimes are stolen and are done by repeat offenders.... fact

They are not stolen. They are sold on the black market and then later our claim to be stolen. Why is it that the NRA's against a gun registration?
Wrong, The reason why the NRA and any other self respecting American is against gun registration is because the federal government can never be trusted with this type of information. Career politicians own the federal government and puppet masters own career politicians. Any attempt to register firearms in a national registry is it evil act and should be thought of so...

That's tinfoil hat bullshit. Gun owners Ihave to be licensed anyways so the government already knows who the gun owners are.
No they don't, that's what I do I sell guns and ammo and there is no paperwork required to be kept. As it should be, it's none of the federal government business on how many, what type of firearms person has - and for that matter should be no one else's business either

Not our business!? How Many people are killed / injured by "illegal" guns every year?


Yeah...the key their is illegal.....criminals are already banned from buying, owning and carrying guns....do you want a new law that says it is super dooper against the law for criminals to buy, own or carry guns?
 
So the gun company DIDNT need a special law to protect them .


Yes...they do......they are targeted for destruction....and defending against law suit after law suit with the only intent to bankrupt them regardless of their guilt or innocence is wrong....
 
They don't ...and I will go there. The mass shooters in this country...either passed background checks or stole their guns....the shooters who murdered 9,616 people in 2015......90% of them could not legally buy, own or carry a gun.....but still got them...and they were not sold to them buy gun makers.......


NO ONE is banning gun ownership....that's a moronic straw man used by gun nuts....like you.......

HOWEVER, the manufacturing of military style guns and selling them to the public supposedly....well, because gun nuts love bigger and more powerful guns to shoot Bambi........THAT should be banned because these weapons ONLY true purpose is to kill and kill as many people in the shortest number of minutes......


Nope...the weapons true purpose is saving the life of the user, competition, hunting and collecting.....

knives kill more people every year than these rifles do......ban knives.
 
Suing Remington because someone shot somebody using a Remington gun, is no different from suing Ford because someone ran over somebody using one of their cars.

Well, there is one difference. The right to own and carry one of Remington's guns is constitutionally protected, no govt can make a law against it. The right to own and drive a Ford is not.
What if the Ford was wielded as a weapon of purpose .... taken aim and pulled accelerator.






So what. Ford didn't say "hey lets make a car that some idiot is going to use to commit murder...yeah that's the ticket!" What you are advocating would be the end of every company on the planet. No one would be able to make ANYTHING lest some dipshit, like you, try to sue them when some other dipshit uses it to commit a crime.
 

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