CDZ Let's run a little experiment. Topic: Paying for College

[Cardinal Carminative]

Sure. I'm not an asshole.

I've provided information to colleagues, partners, vendors, etc. without expectation for payment lots of times. Haven't you too?

Yes but that isn't quite the same as asking teachers to teach for free or suggesting that just slamming them with gigantic classrooms.

We all give away our information to coworkers all the time. But not as a matter of our entire career.

 

[ding]

Yes but that isn't quite the same as asking teachers to teach for free or suggesting that just slamming them with gigantic classrooms.

We all give away our information to coworkers all the time. But not as a matter of our entire career.

Good thing I didn't ask them to do that and instead made fun of the current system.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Goof thing I didn't ask them to do that and instead made fun of the current system.

Guess I'm not getting your point. You suggest changing the paradigm but don't provide any actual description of what the new paradigm involves. Unless you cut the cost of teaching there's no viable way to do this. That's the pay part and that has an upper limit.

 

[ding]

Guess I'm not getting your point. You suggest changing the paradigm but don't provide any actual description of what the new paradigm involves. Unless you cut the cost of teaching there's no viable way to do this. That's the pay part and that has an upper limit.

The technology exists for sharing knowledge easily and cheaply, Right?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

The technology exists for sharing knowledge easily and cheaply, Right?

It has existed as such for nearly 25 to 30 years now.

They key, again, is that teachers or tutors or some other "guide" to the information is usually the part that makes it turn from a data dump into actual education.

That's the obvious limit to any paradigm you propose. If teachers were of no value to the system we already would be a nation of Harvard level graduates. We are not.

Teachers will require pay and a mangeable workload meaning "smaller classes". In other words you can't just toss them in front of a class of 1 million students. They couldn't answer the questions effectively and they couldn't provide the necessary close-in relationship.

That's why TV in the classroom didn't make us all smarter or school cheaper back in the 1970's when they started that.

The idea of a "new paradigm" is effectively meaningless unless it takes into account the failures of the past and the requirements of the actual classroom.

 

[Staidhup]

Let’s first discuss how you intend to compensate those families that sacrificed and saved to pay for their children's college education. Where’s my check?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Let’s first discuss how you intend to compensate those families that sacrificed and saved to pay for their children's college education. Where’s my check?

My wife and I have no children and as such we have NEVER had children in the public school systems we've lived in. however we HAVE paid our property taxes each year which support those school systems.

That seems manifestly unfair to us who have chosen to have no children. We still pay for the children of other families who enjoy a public education we pay for in part.

But the key is: we VALUE an educated population. The need to pay taxes for a school system we will NEVER have any association with is still a benefit to us.

Think of it that way rather than "where's my check"?

 

[ding]

It has existed as such for nearly 25 to 30 years now.

They key, again, is that teachers or tutors or some other "guide" to the information is usually the part that makes it turn from a data dump into actual education.

That's the obvious limit to any paradigm you propose. If teachers were of no value to the system we already would be a nation of Harvard level graduates. We are not.

Teachers will require pay and a mangeable workload meaning "smaller classes". In other words you can't just toss them in front of a class of 1 million students. They couldn't answer the questions effectively and they couldn't provide the necessary close-in relationship.

That's why TV in the classroom didn't make us all smarter or school cheaper back in the 1970's when they started that.

The idea of a "new paradigm" is effectively meaningless unless it takes into account the failures of the past and the requirements of the actual classroom.

And the holding of knowledge hostage continues because of greed. Sad.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

And the holding of knowledge hostage continues because of greed. Sad.

I can guarantee you that the teachers and instructors are NOT experiencing greed. They are just hoping to make a barely-acceptable living.

If you wish for them to give away all their value while you clearly did not is not an acceptable "paradigm shift".

 

[badbob85037]

The purpose of this sociological experiment is to see if Americans are capable of thinking, collaborating and innovating together any more.

Let's start with this particular problem: College has become incredibly expensive and it's saddling students with ridiculous debt from Day One as they enter the workforce. So, where are we right now on this issue?

• Some want to address this by simply wiping out current college debt, or decreasing it to some degree, with taxpayer money
• Some are annoyed by this, such as parents (*ahem*) and students who have paid their way by the rules and will be cheated

So what I'm going to do is toss out a few "IWIWC's", "I wonder if we could...", and let's see if we could get anywhere. Important note: I'm sure we know that this is how businesses often address problems, by tossing out ideas from all directions, massaging them, changing them, tweaking them, throwing some of them out. And, just as importantly, when it sees a problem with an idea, it doesn't just give up and dismiss the whole thing So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this
• I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools
• I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process
• I wonder if we could find a way to attach junior colleges to this process, for those professions that don't need a full four year education
• I wonder if we could utilize employer groups and/or college groups to somehow organize this by industry or subject matter area
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employers who have educated employees, just to have the employees leave
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employees so that the employer cannot go too far with expectations after their investment
• I wonder if we could find a way to keep the kids learning post-employment to improve their skills by incentivizing their employers

Okay, there ya go. After I typed the first line, the rest came to me as I was typing. Tiny little ideas that mean nothing on their own, but could be a germ. Let's see if anything constructive happens.

I wonder if we could get the ones who knew what they were getting into when they incurred the debt pay the debt? How about that?
I wonder if we could get people like you to pay the debt. You seem like you are real concern.
I wonder if we could get people that don't mind paying $12.00 for a pound of hamburger to take on the debt?
I wonder if we could get people that don't mind paying $6.50 a gallon for gas and milk?
I wonder if we could get people to donate a portion of their food stamps to lower these poor freeloaders debt?
I wonder if we could hold a gun to Joe's head getting him to donate the cash he got from Russia, Ukraine, and China to pay off the debt?
I wonder if we could get those nice Taliban to pay their debt, they do owe Joe big time?
I wonder if we could imprison the debt holders having them work off the debt at $0.25 an hour?
I wonder if we could get democRats to hang out behind 7/11 dumpsters selling Salty Peats at $0.25 a pop to pay off the debt?

 

[Mac1958]

I wonder if we could get the ones who knew what they were getting into when they incurred the debt pay the debt? How about that?
I wonder if we could get people like you to pay the debt. You seem like you are real concern.
I wonder if we could get people that don't mind paying $12.00 for a pound of hamburger to take on the debt?
I wonder if we could get people that don't mind paying $6.50 a gallon for gas and milk?
I wonder if we could get people to donate a portion of their food stamps to lower these poor freeloaders debt?
I wonder if we could hold a gun to Joe's head getting him to donate the cash he got from Russia, Ukraine, and China to pay off the debt?
I wonder if we could get those nice Taliban to pay their debt, they do owe Joe big time?
I wonder if we could imprison the debt holders having them work off the debt at $0.25 an hour?
I wonder if we could get democRats to hang out behind 7/11 dumpsters selling Salty Peats at $0.25 a pop to pay off the debt?

Cool!

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I wonder if we could get people like you to pay the debt. You seem like you are real concern.

I am one of those people who pays property taxes for schools I will never have children in. Do I get a refund?

I wonder if we could get people to donate a portion of their food stamps to lower these poor freeloaders debt?

Civilized society does not find new ways to punish the poor.

I wonder if we could imprison the debt holders having them work off the debt at $0.25 an hour?

America already uses prison labor. We have the largest prison population on earth.

I wonder if we could get democRats to hang out behind 7/11 dumpsters selling Salty Peats at $0.25 a pop to pay off the debt?

This is the CDZ so it would be nice if you could moderate the tone a bit. I understand that the hatred is strong and it has to be released somewhere but there are other subforums on this site that you can do this in.

 

[Canon Shooter]

The only truly equitable way to approach this is to have all existing debt paid for by those who incurred that debt. Someone who's trying to pay back the student loans they took out to pursue their Phd in 18th century French poetry probably should've thought things through a little more.

We offer our employees tuition assistance if they want to go to school. We help with the cost of tuition, books, etc. And, if someone's been with the company for at least ten years and wants to go to school to get a degree which will help him be a greater benefit to the company, well, we cover that person's tuition in full; no loans needed...

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

The only truly equitable way to approach this is to have all existing debt paid for by those who incurred that debt. Someone who's trying to pay back the student loans they took out to pursue their Phd in 18th century French poetry probably should've thought things through a little more.

I love how people place arbitrary value on things they either don't understand or don't like.

We offer our employees tuition assistance if they want to go to school. We help with the cost of tuition, books, etc. And, if someone's been with the company for at least ten years and wants to go to school to get a degree which will help him be a greater benefit to the company, well, we cover that person's tuition in full; no loans needed...

That's great for people who can get the job in the first place. Many employers won't even consider entry level open to anyone who doesn't alreayd have a college degree.

The Catch-22 is still a thing.

(Yes and 18th C. French Poetry majors can still do "real" jobs, and the fact that most companies will hire someone with a French Poetry degree to do a marketing job over someone without said degree is all the evidence one needs)

 

[Canon Shooter]

I love how people place arbitrary value on things they either don't understand or don't like.

Well, if the degree had value, then that person should've gotten a job which utilized that degree so the loans incurred to obtain that degree could be paid back. I honestly don't give a shit what the degree is for.

My best friend has a degree in some sort of biomedical engineering thing.

He makes his living as a guitarist.

He just turned 60, so it's highly unlikely anyone in the medical field is ever going to hire him, yet he had to pay those student loans back...

That's great for people who can get the job in the first place.

Well, that onus is on them, isn't it?

I heard on the radio yesterday that there are now two job openings for every one person who's unemployed.

Jobs are out there. Employers want to hire...

Many employers won't even consider entry level open to anyone who doesn't alreayd have a college degree.

The Catch-22 is still a thing.

We just expanded our Shipping & Receiving department and listed four job openings as a result. We filled those positions in relatively short order, but three applicants turned down the job because, apparently, $17 an hour to move boxes and scan invoices is too low. Believe me when I say that you don't need a college degree to do this work. One of the applicants who turned down the job graduates high school in a couple of weeks. We would've held the job for him. But, from what he told us, his parents said he should only take the job is we paid him $19 an hour.

Here's a kid with exactly zero work experience, turning down a job which will pay him $32K a year, and he lives with his parents! We offer our employees health and dental insurance, vision care, 401K, paid vacation, tuition assistance... and this idiot kid turns it down because his folks believe their precious little boy deserves more. At the rate he's going, nobody's gonna' hire him.

(Yes and 18th C. French Poetry majors can still do "real" jobs, and the fact that most companies will hire someone with a French Poetry degree to do a marketing job over someone without said degree is all the evidence one needs)

I know a lot of business owners here and in Jacksonville. No one is hiring anyone because they have a degree in 18th century French poetry...

 

[Staidhup]

My wife and I have no children and as such we have NEVER had children in the public school systems we've lived in. however we HAVE paid our property taxes each year which support those school systems.

That seems manifestly unfair to us who have chosen to have no children. We still pay for the children of other families who enjoy a public education we pay for in part.

But the key is: we VALUE an educated population. The need to pay taxes for a school system we will NEVER have any association with is still a benefit to us.

Think of it that way rather than "where's my check"?

I am not opposed to paying taxes for k-12 public education, agree to paying taxes for such, however what my wife and I sacrificed to pay for my children's college education was substantial, so why should the government bail out those who obtained financial assistance, which we had to do and paid off, only to have the knuckle heads running this country enact a jubilee and bail out this current generation? Where’s my check? Why should my and my children's taxes and standard of living have to be decreased again without compensation? The irony and injustice are profound to say the least.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I am not opposed to paying taxes for k-12 public education, agree to paying taxes for such, however what my wife and I sacrificed to pay for my children's college education was substantial, so why should the government bail out those who obtained financial assistance, which we had to do and paid off, only to have the knuckle heads running this country enact a jubilee and bail out this current generation? Where’s my check? Why should my and my children's taxes and standard of living have to be decreased again without compensation? The irony and injustice are profound to say the least.

I wish I had all that property tax money back too. But, unfortunately, life is not fair for those of us who paid for YOUR KIDS schooling.

 

[Staidhup]

I wish I had all that property tax money back too. But, unfortunately, life is not fair for those of us who paid for YOUR KIDS schooling.

I think your missing the point of what I wrote, most colleges receive some state aide, endowment income, and discounted tuition expense, if a public university, which is why the disparity between tuition costs of public (state) universities and private.
Not everyone is mature enough, or academically qualified, to attend college and or have any concept of what they hope to develop as marketable skill sets for future gainful employment.
Public service, Military….. entry level employment…. for two to four years prior to pursuing a college degree provides the opportunity to recognize their interests and what skill sets they need to prosper in that advocation.
Free college education outside of trade schools is a recipe for mediocrity and frustration.
Trade schools are looked down upon by educators, politicians, and segments of the general population, yet provide valuable marketable skill sets needed in a growing productive economy.
A college degree is not one’s ticket to ride when one majors in art history….

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I think your missing the point of what I wrote, most colleges receive some state aide,

And that has steadily decreased now for decades which is why the cost of tuition is going up in great part.

Not everyone is mature enough, or academically qualified, to attend college and or have any concept of what they hope to develop as marketable skill sets for future gainful employment.
Public service, Military….. entry level employment…. for two to four years prior to pursuing a college degree provides the opportunity to recognize their interests and what skill sets they need to prosper in that advocation.

I would LOVE It if America would re-calibrate and realize a BS or BA is not required for EVERY JOB. We need more VoTech schools and opportunities for folks who don't want to go to college. That would be great.

A college degree is not one’s ticket to ride when one majors in art history….

That's incorrect. I know plenty of people who got liberal arts degrees (literature etc.) that are now quite happily employed. They don't necessarily use those skills but what they DO use are the skills amassed from getting those degrees.

We need to stop denigrating liberal arts degrees because those DO make life worth living. If everyone got a biz or engineering degree we'd be a much poorer and worse nation.

 

[Staidhup]

Well then we can agree to disagree.